"SST" wrote in message
. net

I hooked up my Sennheiser HD600 directly to a Creative NOMAD Jukebox
and a plain Jane SONY portable CD Player and had a small variety of
people (victims) that passed through my office today to listen.

The unanimous response was it was loud enough to hear at FULL volume,
but certainly not acceptable.

Classic example of a badly designed listening test.

I'll bet money that first off, you started your alleged test by regaling
your listeners with 5-minute rant about some old codger on Usenet who is
full of crap about headphone sensitivity.

Secondly, you did your alleged test in a noisy office where people have
probably already experienced some threshold shift due to the environment.

You staged it as a quicky test where people's ears didn't get a chance to
adapt to their new listening environment. I often end up turning the volume
down after I listen for a few dozen seconds to a couple of minutes.

You could have easily picked media that was recorded at abnormally low
levels to shift the results in the desired direction. Later on you admit
that you turned the volume control down to 50% on equipment that is usually
(measurably) essentially distortion-free at 100% volume setting.

You picked different model headphones than the one I used, though they
should be comparable.

You picked a different model of Nomad Jukebox than the one I used, one that
per your own numbers might have 10 times less output than mine.

At half volume they were as quiet as a
whisper. '... NOT loud enough...' was the agreed upon response from
all that listened.

Then you further biased the test by turning down the volume to half.
Apparently in your current state of hysteria, you haven't checked your
facts.

I have.

I've tested a number of personal stereo devices and find that as a rule,
unlike home audio systems and unlike car audio systems, there's no technical
performance penalty to running them at full (100%) volume.

IOW a full-scale digital file can be played at 100% volume control setting
on most personal players, NJB3 included, with ZERO clipping, zero loss of
frequency response, and negligible increase in distortion as compared to
half volume.

That was about 5 or 6 people ranging from 23 to 51 years old.

I'm surprised you didn't turn the volume down to 10%, as it would have
further biased the test in your favor!

The SONY walkman was noticeably lower in volume then the
NOMAD at 'maximum' headphone output.

So?

We then tried a relatively inexpensive pair of Audio Technicia's
laying around the office, Similar to the original posters Sony MDR V6
headphones. They were definitely louder but were noticeably more
distorted then the Sennheisers.

In all likelihood, a major factor in this evaluation was distortion in the
listener's ears.

However maybe this is insightful:

These numbers would be helpful if test conditions were stated so that there
was any assurance that they are in fact meaningful numbers. As usual with
your sloppy work, test conditions aren't stated. As will I shortly show,
given your numbers, the test conditions have to be totally unrealistic to
the point of being totally absurd.

Nomad: Maximum Output = 5 mW
Nomad II: Maximum Output = 7 mW

I have one of these. I've used it with my 580s and it works fine. Not the
loudest thing in the world, but still a good listen.

Nomad Jukebox: Maximum Output = 100 mW
Nomad Jukebox C: Maximum Output = 100 mW
Nomad Jukebox 2: Maximum Output = 900 mW
Nomad Jukebox 3: Maximum Output = 900 mW

The Jukebox 3 power output number is sheerest crap. Fact of the matter is
that a Jukebox 3 playing a 1 KHz FS test file puts out a bit less than 1
volt RMS into a high impedance load with the volume set to maximum. I tested
mine last week. Let's use 1 volt because I know its a tad high but makes
easy calculations.

P = E squared/R so the only way to get 900 mW out of a Nomad 3 is to load
it with a ca. 1.1 ohm load. The idea of the headphone jack on a personal
portable driving a 1.1 load is ludicrous in the extreme. So-called low-z
headphones run around 32 ohms (that gives ca. 31 mW) and high-z phones run
around 300 ohms (that gives more like 3.1 mW).

Archos ONDIO: Maximum Output = 100 mW
Archos Studio Series: Maximum Output = 100 mW

Apple iPod (all models): Maximum Output = 60 mW

Since the NOMAD 2 and 3 seems to be 9 times louder then any other
product of its type, I think you are the exception.

Come back when you've got some believable numbers. If your numbers were
given in millivolts not milliwatts, at least the NJB3 number would be
semi-believable. However, I don't think you actually know the difference
between milliwatts and millivolts, or you wouldn't have made the big boo-boo
you just posted.

Your typical pair of headphones have sensitivity on the order of 100 dB/mW,
sometimes up to 115 dB/mW. So 1 MW is loud, and 5 mW is right on the edge of
ear damage for phones that a have low-average sensitivity. As a practical
matter, peak listening levels of 110 dB should be a reasonable very high
maximum. 115 dB is too close to the OSHA zero tolerance point to be funny.

Now back to the
guy with the much lower output iPod. I would think your phones are
well matched if you say its loud enough and you may want to try a
less efficient HiFi headphone like the HD 5xx or 6xx model first
before buying them.

I would very much favor people trying stuff before they buy stuff,
especially with all the unbelievable trash that is being put out on Usenet,
such as the science fiction numbers listed above.

I don't abuse my ears, I work in the music (sound and audio
engineering) industry. I'm generally not around loud concert halls
but rather small studios which are not loud and abusive.

I thought you worked in an office. Didn't you just say that?

Oh and since when is 'Hell' profane?

Long time. I'll bet money you use the F-word in front of your mother,
though. You sure seeem to like the S-word. Note, the words I wrote that you
were ranting about beging "melodramatic" had no profanity of any kind. No
old-school profanity, no new-school profanity, just plain old words you hear
in polite conversation. This is your issue, and I'm happy to hoist you up to
writhe in the sun over it.