Robert Morein wrote:


"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
Robert Morein wrote:


Please reference the below post.


OK. I'll make a few general comments.


Have you had patients present themselves with the symptoms described
below?

No, at least not with a *combination* of the 6 characteristics that you
mention. Nor would I necessarily characterize somebody that repeats the
same
stock phrases and criticisms over and over again as necessarily
"obsessional".
For example, look at the repetitive hatemongering currently being spewed
by
RAO's resident extreme right-wing zealot and Democrat basher.

So, you're saying, there are a number of ways that repetitive behavior can
exist without being classified obsessional.


Correct. Obsessional thoughts are certainly a possibility. However, many
people just exhibit habitual behavior that is voluntary (unlike obsessional
thoughts), highly learned, highly practiced, and conditioned to occur when
triggered by various stimuli.



To arrive at a diagnosis of "obsessional", one would need to have some
credible
evidence of a fairly frequent set of thought patterns that are (a)
intrusive,
(b) involuntary, (c) extremely difficult to either stop or decrease in
frequency without assistance from others, and in most cases, in need of
professional treatment.
All that said, constant repetition of the same types of propaganda would
indicate a set of highly learned, habitual responses that are most likely
"cued" (triggered" by various stimuli (e.g. reflexive responses to certain
RAO
posters0. Operant conditioning can be very powerful .

So, if you'll permit a layman to ramble a bit,
1. True obsessive-compulsive behavior is self-contained, ie., internally
triggered, or, if an external trigger exists, it is of the most trivial
kind, such as a pair of lady's shoes to stomp on.


I would say the *motivation* for the O-C behavior is generally internal,
although external stimuli may play a causal role in actually determining that
the behavior occurs. For example, a person with an irrational fear of being
contaminated may have recurrent thoughts dealing with this subject and, when in
certain environments such as their home engage in repetitive hand=washing,
cleaning their house, etc. I once had a patient who used to joke about having
the only house with "6 layers of Pledge" on all the furniture.


2. Arny's behavior on this newsgroup contains an external component in the
loop, ie. the response of posters to his "bait"; hence it is encompassed
more by the phrase "operant conditioning", although there must be an
internal component that makes him susceptible to conditioning in that
manner.

[snip]
We have a talk show host in Miami, Neil Rogers,
who adopts an on-air persona of bitching about everything to deliberate
generate high ratings. As you might expect, people tune in and call up
simply
to criticize him, but for him, the fact that they listen and respond is
the
reward. (In real life, however, he is a very nice guy - I've been a guest
on
his show in times past, and the onair kvetch/iconoclast/hatemongering is
just a
role he plays to generate discussion and get ratings). Sorry for the
digression, but this was one of the best examples of getting reinforced
for
being "despised" I could think of besides those who do it on RAO, of
course.

In Arny's case, however, there is no evidence of conscious awareness that he
is seeking attention in the form of "kick-me, kick-me".


All I'm saying that is, if a person's posts on RAO are constantly attacked,
ridiculed, scorned, confronted, etc., yet that person persists in posting the
same way over a long period of time, then it is reasonable to assume that the
person gets some "reward" or "benefit" in continuing that berhavior.
Generating attention and responses, even negative ones, can be powerful
incentives for some people. IOW, for some people, negative attention if much
more highly rewarding than being killfiled and ignored. We also have no way of
knowing about a person's internal belief system here, unless they share that
with us - which has been done to some extent. Given a certain belief system a
set of values, some folks may believe (whether rationally or irrationally) that
by constant repetition of those beliefs they can somehow "convert" or
"convince" others to adopt their point of view. See my earlier example re.
RAO's resident enstreme right-wing hatemonger currently attempting to
monopolize RAO pstings with anti-Democratic Party propaganda.




Individuals with obsessive-compulsive disorder, with which there is a
partial resemblance, occasionally request treatment, even though
self-denial
is a usual aspect.


See above comments. Usually people that are abusive, intolerant, arrogant
and
seeing themselves as experts, are unwilling to voluntarily seek treatment
for
behavioral and/or emotional problems because they think they "have all the
answers" and regard psychotherapy as a sign of "weakness" or
"vulnerability".
Exceptions IME would occur when the person like the one you describe is
convinced to seek treatment for the benefit of other people important to
him/her - e.g. spouse, children, other family members, or in some cases,
by an
employer (who might use job stability as leverage). Treatment for such
individuals IME may also occur when there are some legal issues involved -
e.g.
divorce, child custody disputes, substance abuse, criminal behavor, legal
suits
for slander, libel, etc. In such cases, the person's attorney may well
recommend treatment as part of a defense strategem. I've obtained several
referrals from attornies of people of this type.

We can always hope that the festering lawsuit would have that effect .

[snip]











Bruce J. Richman