[isw]

In article ,
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:

"isw" wrote in message
...
for it to "sound right". It'll be somewhat more difficult if you want
it
to *be right*.

What *IS* right in the context of a non test record? Do you use the same
speakers as the recording and mastering engineers?

Of course not; for one thing, monitor speakers aren't necessarily a good
choice for living rooms. But I guarantee you that my playback EQ was set
up as accurately as I could manage, using a standard test record and
level measuring gear. That's much more precise than using an "inverse
RIAA network" for example.

So what your saying is, it doesn't matter whether it sounds right, or
anything like what it was meant to sound like, as long as you use the right
EQ setting.

What I'm saying is what I already said: if you don't use the proper
playback EQ, you don't stand much chance of hearing what the producer
intended you to hear -- you're just guessing.

Your choice, and you're welcome to it. Remember though we were discussing
*non RIAA* recordings.
For RIAA recordings I do agree it is best to start with proper RIAA playback
EQ, but still use tone controls/EQ whenever necessary.

You use proper RIAA EQ to "cancel" the effects of the vinyl, to the
greatest extent possible. Afterthat, you can tweak the sound to your
taste, if you want to.

Any "production" EQ (which would be on the master tape or disk) is not
at issue here -- that's a matter of taste.

Exactly, and that *is* an issue.

It's what happens to the
signal between there and the commercial disk thqt I'm talking about.

Why do you think one EQ matters and not another? They all have an effect on
the final sound.

Production EQ is part of the process of *creating music*, if you will.
Cutting EQ is just attempting to correct for a poor transfer medium --
the vinyl record. Both have an effect on the sound, but their intentions
are very different. Assuming you want to hear it as the producer
intended, you have to deal properly with the cutting EQ. You have no
clue what the production EQ was.

IF
what you want is the best possible recreation of what was on that master
tape (so you hear what the producer heard), then you need to apply the
proper playback EQ to the signal.

What the producer heard live, or on his monitoring system? I can assure you
they are different. I can also assure you that YOU will not hear either case
just by using the nominal playback EQ.

On his monitors, of course. There's no possibility of reaching back
before that. But to even get close, you have to deal properly with the
cutting EQ, which is -- sort of -- the "inverse" of the playback EQ.

if you use the proper playback EQ, the signal out of your phono preamp
will be identical to the signal from a playback of the master tape.

Fairly close, if youre very lucky maybe.

Yup. as I said, vinyl is a pretty crappy medium for storing audio
signals.

CD does give you a much better
chance at least.

Within the frequency range it's capable of handling, a CD can provide
very nearly perfectly flat response, with negligible distortion and
added noise. No commercial analog method can even get close to its
performance.

And if you think that somehow guarantees a perfectly flat response
compared
to what was originally heard/meant by the producer/engineer/artist, then
you
are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Of course I don't. Vinyl is a rather poor storage medium for audio
signals -- distortion, noise, nonlinearity; it's all there.

At last we agree on something. That's why slavishly sticking to a defined EQ
curve when the playback or even recording obviously sounds crook, is a
stupid idea.
You're welcome to do whatever you want though.

Again: The best you can possibly hope for, is to hear something close to
what the producer heard *from his monitors*. The best chance you have
for doing that is to "cancel out" as much of the vinyl-caused damage as
possible. To accomplish that, you have to have the proper playback EQ.

Have you
ever tried to check a phono preamp for "RIAA accuracy" using a
professional test record? I have. It's almost impossible.

Why on earth would you check a phono pre-amp with a test record? I check
those with a spectrum analyser. Test records are for checking
turntables/cartridges.

If your playback EQ does not include cartridge/groove mechanical
effects, and specific cartridge response (and effects), then you're
probably not very close. Using a test record for a signal source and
including the entire cartridge in the signal path is the *only way* you
can possibly do that.

You obviously need to learn good measurement practice.

Well, if nearly forty years as a designer/manager in broadcasting and
related industries hasn't done it, I'm afraid it's never going to happen.

In fact what you are really doing is to adjust the Pre-amp EQ to compensate
for your cartridge response, so it matches the test record. Now *That's*
very close to what I'm suggesting all along, and what YOU are disagreeing
with!!

I think there was some miscommunication, then, because THAT IS EXACTLY
WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

It seems that we have been vehemently agreeing with each other.

Isaac