Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com
Don't tell me who is a supporter of what.
Right, why confuse Mirabel with mere facts?
Just give a reference to ONE SINGLE audio component
comparison by S. Olive using ABX.
This is Mirabel's idea of proof of non-existence of
DBTs: Absence of a peer-reviewed paper saying that some
certain person did an ABX test of specific pieces of
audio gear.
What a bogus criteria!
Name a few better criteria than approval by a professional
peer-reviewed journal.
You had 40 years to get just ONE.
I've already explained to Mirabel that scientific papers
as a rule don't involve actual commercial products, and
when they do, the make and model information is often
concealed. What Mirabel does not seem to get is the idea
that scientific papers are about science, they not
usually about consumer product testing.
We,re talking about what S.E. Olive did Krueger; not
about your ideas what he should or should not have done:
S.E. Olive: "Differences in performance and PREFERENCE
of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in LOUDSPEAKER
Tests: A case study"; JAES., vol.51, #9, Sept. 2003"
P. 806; "The four loudspeakers used in both tests are
shown in table 1" They were coded but the data were so
transparent that I guessed the identity
of the electrostatic one correctly (my guess confirmed by
S.Olive)
Thanks Mirabel for confirming that the JAES uses coded names when commercial
products are mentioned.
You forgot to say "unusually mentioned"
Krueger says in his USUAL weasely way : "...they
are not USUALLY about consumer product testing".
Gosh, there might have been an exception or two in the history of man. Sue
me for trying to make a correct post.
:
Typical of Mirabel's deceptions. The JAES as rule does not print any audio
component research articles at all.
You obviously need your memory refreshed
Let's see where the "typical deception" dwells: A few references out of
many
See footnote
............................................
How many times Krueger do I have to "explain" to you that
they are USUALLY not- except when they ARE- about
consumer product testing.
ABX WAS NOT USED.
So what Mirabel, no matter how single-minded you are, there are other valid
paradigms for doing bias-controlled listening tests than ABX. I've told you
over and over again, but you keep harping on ABX.
Sorry, I thought it was one Arny Krueger who was harping on ABX for
audio=consumer use.. Do you recommend something else nowadays?
Mirabel also ignores the fact that Sean Olive is
primarily a developer of speakers, not electronic
components. Speakers generally pass ABX tests. Frankly
testing speakers is not a strength of ABX testing.
Now we get another weasel word; "generally" -"pass ABX
tests".
What exactly are you trying to say Krueger? What does
"pass" mean in this context?
Dooh, it means that in general loudspeakers sound different in ABX tests.
Google searching suggests that I've said this several 100 times on RAO.
Are you trying (very ineptly) to say that ABX is only good for testing
components that do not "pass" ie "they all sound the
same"?
Well, we already know that.
No, I'm saying that speakers sound different so much of the time that its a
waste of time to use ABX to test loudspeakers because the outcome of the
test is *that* predictable.
Once again and again and again: Loudspeakers no good: too obvious. 9But
that was not so in S. Olive loudspeaker tests- see reply to J. Borg).
"Well designed" amps, preamps,cdplayers, dacs waste of time- all the
same . What is ABX good for as far as audio consumers are concerned.
Don't tell me about RESEARCH- this is RAO not JAES.
Then Mirabel you know wrong, but we already know that!
And this is another one of Mirabel's deceptions - he
lumps all bias-controlled tests under the name "ABX".
Olive is well-known for doing bias-controlled listening
tests, but he generally uses testing procedures that are
more suited to his area of interest - not ABX.
Explain which areas of interest to RAO participants are
"suitable for ABX.".
Do you suggest in your PCABX website that readers should use other
"Testing procedures when more suitable" Which ones? When? I did not see
any guidelines in your web page though you say:
Been there done that, 1,000s of times.
Well, just for your admirers do it the !001st. time.
Points of puzzlement:
1) ABX is not for loudspeakers because they sound too different to
need it.
OK. (*but see footnote)
2)Amplifiers, preamplifiers, cd-players, dacs,if "well-designed" sound
the same. That is your chapel's credo-yes, no?
3) What is the ABX for? Not needed for loudspeakers, nul results for
everything else.
Is it only for badly designed components? Who needs it to find out
what one can hear by casual listening?
Are there any at all? We're not
psychometric researchers down here in the real world.
You're not in the real world Mirabel, so why ask with that as a pretext?
That was very funny. Excellent answer too.
Isn't testing of loudspeakers what you promote in your PCABX?
Here's an web IQ test for you to take Mirabel - check the PCABX web site
www.pcabx.com and see how many speaker tests you come up with.
If not say so clearly and unequivocally. We're listening..
Try reading...
How about quoting the relevant sentence, like:" My ABX not needed for
testing loudspeakers"
For that matter give a reference to ANY component
comparisons by ANYBODY that appeared in an *audio
professional Jornal*.
Asked and answered. Mirabel seems to think that audio
professional journals are supposed to compete with
Stereophile or Sound and Vision.
See the refernces above. Don't speak for "the audio professional
journals".
Most of sus can read.
Olive tested audio components under coded names.
As I predicted he would.
He did not use ABX.
I've both predicted and explained that.
List the other coded audio component
comparisons using ABX that appeared in JAES.
Not my job.
Another very funny ha ha! answer. All of us low IQ morons ask: "How can
he do it again and again. Such wit shouldn't be wasted in RAO.
But..
Don't you keep a little file somewhere? You're a researcher ,no? I'd
think it is VERY MUCH your job to keep track of your brain-child.
Or say that ABX is only suitable for "science" and close
off your PCABX
Who elected you a god, Mirabel? You don't get to set up hoops for me to jump
through.
Don't. You're a free agent. And remember what you refused to answer.
You might be reminded oof it.
This request has been repeated again and again for the
last five years. So far no takers. Be the first.
Asked and answered, many times.
You're a laugh, you are Krueger
The only laugh here is you, Mirabel.
You just go 'round and 'round.
Around you Krueger. In ever narrowing circles.
Ludovic Mirabel
S. Bech, Selection and Training of Subjects for Listening Tests on
Sound Reproducing Equipment", JAES, vol. 40, 1992, pp590-610
S,E. Olive et al.,"The Variability of Loudspeaker Sound Quality among
Four Domestic-Sized Rooms,JAES Abstracts,vol.43,1995, 1088-1089
A. Gabrielson, "Loudspeaker Frequency Response and Perceived Sound
Quality", J. Acoust. Soc. Am., vol. 90, 1991, pp.707-1991
F.E.Toole, "Loudspeaker Measurements and their relationship to Listener
Preferences', JAES, vol.34, 1986, pp.237-285
M.R.Jason, "A Real-World Implementation of Current Theory in
Loudspeaker Subjective Evaluation", JAES Abstracts, vol. 39, 1991, pp.
385
S.E.Olive, "Differences...... Loudspeker Tests: A Case Study" JAES,
vol.51, 2003. pp 806-825, which compared four COMMERCIAL
loudspeakers.
Many more but my typing two fingers feel faint.
And a few more;
Eleven-Day Sound System for 325,000 People
Volume 20 Number 7 pp. 568-573; September 1972
Design, installation, and equalization of a complex rental sound
reinforcement system for the Billy Graham Crusade 71 in Chicago's
McCormick Place are described. Uniformity of coverage parameters in the
cavernous 720- by 421- by 65-ft exhibition hall led to the decision to
install a multicluster delayed loudspeaker system. The complete system,
employing thirty-four loudspeakers, ten microphones, and eight power
amplifiers had to be installed in forty-eight hours.
Author: Ancha, Robert F.
E-lib Location: (CD aes3) /jrnl6877/1972/7107.pdf
--------------------------------------
Operational Amplifier Implementation of Ideal Electronic Crossover
Networks
Volume 19 Number 1 pp. 7-11; January 1971
Electronic Crossover Networks and Their Contribution to Improved
Loudspeaker Transient Response
Volume 19 Number 8 pp. 674-679; September 1971
Tone-burst testing of loudspeakers provides a significant indication of
a loudspeaker's ability to reproduce transients in program material. A
comparison of several studio monitor loudspeaker systems is presented
and the improvement in loudspeaker transient response is illustrated
when electronic crossover networks and multiple amplifiers are used to
replace conventional inductor-capacitor crossover networks.
Author: Smith, Allan P.
E-lib Location: (CD aes3) /jrnl6877/1971/7012.pdf
-------------------------
Active and Passive Filters as Loudspeaker Crossover Networks
Volume 19 Number 6 pp. 494-502; June 1971
This tutorial paper defines the function of a crossover network and
then explores methods of meeting this function. For moderately priced
two-way loudspeakers, a passive network at about 800-1600 Hz will
continue to dominate the designs of the future. However, the use of
active filters (electronic crossover networks) and buffer amplifiers
offers the most significant means of loudspeaker improvement in the
next decade. As one typical factor, crossover frequencies need to be
lowered and crossover slopes increased, and the active filter is the
only economical method of doing this.
Authors: Ashley, J. Robert; Kaminsky, Allan L.
E-lib Location: (CD aes3) /jrnl6877/1971/6993.pdf
-----------------------------------------
During the study of ideal crossover networks, the value of operational
amplifiers became obvious. Now that integrated-circuit operational
amplifiers are available at reasonable cost, an electronic crossover
network employing them will be demonstrated. There will also be
discussion of the optimum filter characteristics and of the power
requirements of the amplifiers which follow the networks.
Authors: Ashly, J. Robert; Henne, Lawrence M.
E-lib Location: (CD aes3) /jrnl6877/1971/6938.pdf
-----------------------------------
Operational Amplifier Applications for Audio Systems
Volume 17 Number 1 pp. 14-21; January 1969
The application of microminiature and miniature operational amplifiers
to audio systems is presented with practical examples.
Microphone-disc-tape preamplifiers, mixers, line amplifiers, disc and
tape equalization, bias and erase oscillators, a cue tone latching
detector, a graphic equalizer, lowpass-bandpass-highpass filters, a
power amplifier, power supplies and other circuits are described.
Author: Losmandy, B. J.
Enough anyway for you to find if your ABX was used in any of them.