On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:11:30 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:31:46 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
link.net

Arny Krueger wrote:


"Matt Zach" wrote in message


I am looking at my first tube amp. It delivers 40 wpc class A. I
own an inefficient pair of A/D/S 810 speakers.
Will I have problems with this amp driving these speakers ?

I can tell you that ADS 810s aren't 100 dB/watt speakers.

Gheez - how deaf are you? I only listen to music that is
maybe 70-80db and has maybe twice that volume in peaks
at most and it fills the house for everything other than
a party.

Ever been to a live performance of the kind of music you like? Ever
measured the actual sound levels?

I've done that for classical music, jazz, chamber music, country,
pop, etc. In the good seats SPL often show metered peaks (short
transients are not reflected) of 95-105 dB.

Rock concerts? Let's not even go there (at least without ear
protection!).

100db/watt speakers? That's about what movie speakers are - huge
100db+ efficient JBL arrays.

True in the days of tubes. Believe it or not, some older theaters
use some of the same speakers now that they used back then, only
with updated electronics.

Far smaller speakers that are commonly available can have close to
100 dB/w sensitivity. Check out your typical stage monitors or the
speakers used for SR. They generally run 96 dB/w and up with some
exceptions like Bose. They're not exactly huge or vastly expensive.
However, the laws of physics must be honored so they are either
rather large or have less efficiency or have limited bass or some of
the above.

In new movie theaters there has been this recent tendency to use of
smaller, lower-efficiency speakers with racks of big power amps. I
doubt that we'll ever see much new construction with big bins of 18"
drivers like we had in the "Earthquake" days. Today: long-stroke
drivers, small boxes, equalization and big power amps.

Louder than hell in these huge rooms bigger than my whole house.

The ear is very level-sensitive. If you want a better approximation
of the sound quality of live music, you have no choice but to
roughly duplicate live music SPLs.

Nobody sane *needs* more than 110db, even for peaks unless their
hearing is shot.

The OSHA zero tolerance point is 115 dB, A-weighted. I very much
support not exceeding OSHA recommendations when listening to music.

My largest personal system can do about 110 dB as measured with a
SPL meter without *any* clipping. The system manual gain control on
the surround processor is set with a small marker at the
"unconditional no clipping" point. My system is smaller and less
capable than those belonging to several of my friends. I have a
close friend whose system can easily do 120 dB without clipping or
strain. Parts of it will probably hit 130 dB, but full-range 15
Hz-20 KHz its max is more like 120 dB. It's big and expensive but
at "live concert" SPLs, it's just cruising.

Poor Arnold, now that he's painted himself in a box that he would
normally not have constructed, he's desperately spinning like a
dreidel at Chanakkah.

Obviously Weil, the whole discussion is so far over your head that it
appears to you that the whole world is spinning. In fact, its your head that
is spinning.

He's now comparing stage monitors to home speakers,

No such thing. Simply pointing out that it doesn't take a monstor speaker in
a theater to have high efficiency.

Of course it doesn't. Hell, Klipsch routinely sells relatively small
boxes with high efficiency. So does JBL.

I *will* point out that I don't know what a "monstor" speaker is
though.

he's bragging about doing 110 dB wow Arnold, *that's*
ammmmazing

Perhaps to you, Weil. As I later point out, it's far from exceptional in the
audiophile circles that I travel.

The comment was obviously intended to be sarcastic.

Now he supports not exceeding 115 dB but previously, not
being able to hit 118 dBs was the mark of poor performance.

Weil, you're making this up too,

Nope.

Then of course, there's the denial that acoustic suspension speakers
don't address the design of the speaker - that it's just a "marketing
term".

Prove me wrong.

I can't help if if you don't know what "acoustic suspension" refers
to.

I'm sure that even Tom Nousaine could describe the basic design
principle behind such a speaker described as 'acoustic suspension" and
even he would acknowledge that this speaker is inherently less
efficient than some other designs, espcially the kind of designs that
JBL routinely uses - you know, the dreaded marketing term "bass
reflex".

More likely than not, Tom would categorize common box speakers as being
either vented or sealed box. That's the modern terminology - ever since the
80's at the latest.

I didn't say how he'd categorize them. I said that he could describe
the basic design simply from the term "acoustic suspension". I'm sorry
that you can't. I'd brush up on my speaker terminology if I were you.

Oh yeah, I currently have absolutely *no* problem hitting 120 dB with
only a 90 wpc SS amp.

That's great Weil, but aren't you the big tubed amp fan?

Unlike you, I'm pretty openminded and flexible. I have an audio/video
90 wpc SS 5 channel receiver, a pair of 250 watt SS monoblocks, a 45
wpc tube integrated amp and a pair of 35 watt monoblock tube amps. I
also have a powered subwoofer based computer speaker system.

Of course, I only like to do that for testing
purposes with earplugs. Normally, I'm like most people, I usually
stick with peaks about 98 - 100 dBs for normal loud listening. And
that's on the rare occasion. Normally, peaks for me are below 90 dB.

Weil, I seriously doubt that you lack the resources to actually stand behind
these claims.

Doubt all you'd like.

Previously, with a speaker rated at 88 dB/watt/12 feet, I could fill a
24 by 22 foot space *easily* with two Dynaco MK3s.

If two of those speakers fill an entire 24 x 22 foot room, then they are
very large speakers indeed.

Actually, your sarcasm aside, they are pretty large speakers indeed
(although, in the general scheme of things, I wouldn't call them "very
large"). Weighing 120 lbs each and 45 inches tall, they aren't small,
although they have a fairly reasonable footprint. Plus, they go to 33
hz all by themselves. Not too shabby.

Could I hit 110 dBs
peaks? I don't know, since I never measured it.

Weil, thanks for so quickly admitting that your former claim of "hitting 120
dB with only a 90 wpc SS amp" is worthless.

You seem confused. My statement refers to a pair of speakers rated at
88 dB/watt/12 ft driven by two 35 w tube monoblocks, not a pair of
speakers rated at 98 dB/watt/1mtr driven by a Denon AVR 2800. The
reason that I can't state with certainty about the peaks is that, at
the time, I had no sound pressure meter, as I do now.

Needless to say, I
could play them as loud as I wished without audible clipping. And I'm
guessing that it would be at least 98 - 100 dBs.

Weil, thanks for so quickly admitting that your former claim of "hitting 120
dB with only a 90 wpc SS amp" is worthless, because as you now admit, your
SPL numbers are just your guesses.

Once again, you seem confused. The quote refers to my current setup,
not the previous setup noted. Please try to pay atention.