"dave weil" wrote in message

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:44:42 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:37:55 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:01:46 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in
message nk.net

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but
they:

- (1) do real research and testing

Agreed.

- (2) pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker
drivers. More accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big
enough quantities that $20-30 gets them just about *anything they
want*.

- (3) sell them for reasonable markups.

Agreed.

I should point out that at this point, the scope of the discussion
is in my view, at minimum all companies that sell high quality 2-way
loudspeakers. When looking at the little Jupiters, similar speakers
from Paradigm, NHT, PSB, BA etc. come to mind. Since the little
Jupiters have woofers that are no great shakes at Xmax, speakers
with 6.5 and 7" woofers are competitive.

If you wish to redefine the discussion, OK. However, I have to point
out that the woofer is only one component of the speaker componentry.

You can if you want to, but

(a) It's irrelevant to the thrust of my discussion which I now see flew
completely over your head. I'm addressing the fact that some speakers I
think are competitive have smaller drivers. Since smaller drivers can easily
have larger Xmax, they can keep up or surpass the little Jupiters in the
bass department. Smaller bass drivers have other advantages but I don't want
to go off track.

(b) It's a classic case of "Taking coals to Newcastle". Nobody in their
right mind could miss the fact that we're talking speakers with two drivers.

I want to remind you that the ribbon tweeter, regardless of what you
think about its cost to the manufacturer, keeps it out of this new
category that you have imposed on the discussion.

Nice try at deceptively masquerading an OSAF assertion with a *reminder*.
The ribbon tweeter is just another tweeter until someone shows that it has
some unique advantages. Since no such evidence has been provided, this would
be a non-existent fact.

If one agrees with your first statement, then one would have to
disagree with the second, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers
for $1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

You obviously can't count Weil, because my first statement has
nothing to do with driver costs.

Sorry, you are correct. I meant your second statement.

Thank you Mr. Weil. If you had only been able to muster this level
of candor a number of years ago...

Ummm, Arnold, I have *always* quickly admitted any factual errors.

LOL!

I maintain that I *can* count however. If anything, I am guilty of
skimming.

Well dohhhh!

Well, it it were this obvious, why the need to imply otherwise?

Because of the well-proven need to nail you extremely hard in order to get
you to see the obvious.

If you were going to intelligently make this sort of
comment, you'd address it to my second and third statements. Your
post proves only that you can't count to three. Please come back
when you obtain that skill.

Well, now that I've acknowledged my mistake (and I was able to do it
without your level of spleen and spite),

No Weil, you weren't! IME for your entire previous career on RAO,
you've acknowledged a vanishing percentage of your factual mistakes.
But hey, growth and maturity is growth and maturity and it deserves
some honor, no matter how belated. Henceforth in this post I'll
refer to you as "Mr. Weil".

As you wish.

As it is. Just look at all the factual mistakes and debating trade
deceptions you've already made that I've had to correct!

I'm glad that you've now acknowledged that your previous use of the
last name only was simply a device for belittling an opponent.

It was a device for getting the facts through a might thick skull.

Took you long enough, despite your previous denials.

No, just one post this time. BTW that's a new record.

you can accept that your
demand is now met. Of course, I'm pretty sure that you knew that
anyway.

Mr. Weil, you're getting close enough to be telling the truth that I
should answer the a rephrased version of your question:

If one agrees with your second statement, then one would have to
disagree with the third, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers
for $1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

You've appear to have missed a logical step Mr. Weil. You presumed
that I think that the pricing of all $1600 or more a pair 2-way
speakers is reasonable. Since I don't think that the pricing of all
$1600 or more 2-way speakers is reasonable, that's that!

But you didn't state that when you made your (seemingly) global claim
about what speaker manufacturers pay for their drivers.

I didn't think I needed to state something that obvious, but you proved me
wrong, Mr. Weil.

The implication is that it doesn't matter *how* good you think they are.

Hey Weil, you can make up anything you want and as long as you don't say
that I said it...

For the record, I think that the reasonableness of the pricing of
all $1600 or more a pair 2-way small consumer loudspeakers needs to
be judged on an individual basis.

Fair enough. Wouldn't the next logical step be to judge *heard*
speakers, since virtually everyone agrees that speakers are the
hardest component to quantify using raw specs?

Not necessarily. I'm addressing perceived value in the marketplace.

OTOH the $1600 per pair pricing of large venue 2-ways such
as those made by Community Light and Sound is generally accepted. The
roughly $1600 per pair pricing of small high quality studio
monitors like the JBL LSR8P or Mackie HR828s is also generally
accepted.

And how do you know that this isn't the case with the Jupiters?

I can tell the class difference between these speakers and Jupiters, even if
you can't Mr. Weil.

One problem with Usenet trolls is that they seem to live in a
black-and-white world, and scream "contradiction" when a superficial
ignorant analysis doesn't work, which is most of the time.

Would a "superficial ignorant analysis" cover trying to evalaute an
unheard speaker?

It all depends. Just hearing something does not instantly elevate the
listener to world-class unimpeachible tonmeister excellence.

One only has to look at Bugtussel as an example.

I don't know what sort of volumes Bugtussel is moving. Bugtussel
has one very strong advantage over Jupiter - a seasoned,
technically-sophisticated chief designer who still remembers what
he learned in his science classes, and aggressively built on a
solid technical education over a period of years. Did I mention
that the last time we worked together we did a demonstration of
PCABX?

Well then, if you're going to imply that they are paying *more* for
their drivers than your hypothetical example, how much more do the
drivers have to be for you to still claim that their markups aren't
excessive vis a vis the Jupiters?

How you can find an implication about drivers in this paragraph Mr.
Weil, I just don't know. I put in an implication that part of what
you pay for with a loudspeaker purchase is the designer's skill,
experience and track record. How that got lost, I just don't know!
Skimming?

You said *nothing* about skill, experience and track record.

That's true. I never wrote the following, ever in my life, particularly not
in this thread, and it was surely never quoted in this post:

"Bugtussel has one very strong advantage over Jupiter - a seasoned,
technically-sophisticated chief designer who still remembers what he
learned in his science classes, and aggressively built on a solid
technical education over a period of years."

And if you believe that Mr Weil, you can stand over there with Mr. Kramer.

Mr. Weil, what in heaven's name do you think I was talking about when I
said: "...a seasoned, technically-sophisticated chief designer who still
remembers what he learned in his science classes, and aggressively built
on a solid technical education over a period of years."

Mr. Weil do you seriously think this sentence is a discussion of prices paid
for loudspeaker drivers? Exactly what do you think the word "designer"
means?

You simply talked about "testing".

LOL!

I said:

"Bugtussel has one very strong advantage over Jupiter - a seasoned,
technically-sophisticated chief designer who still remembers what he
learned in his science classes, and aggressively built on a solid
technical education over a period of years."

You've been pretty quick to disparage
one of the companies that has arguably had the longest track record in
"experience and track record" AS WELL AS testing.

Not at all.

That leaves only
skill and I think that few peoplewould dispute Paul Klipsch's skill in
designing and building speakers.

Paul Klipsch died a year ago last May. He was 98 at the time. What do you
think was the last speaker system he actually had full design responsibility
for?

One might argue with the "ideology",
but then you'll have to argue with Altec and ElectroVoice as well.

I don't believe that either were dominated by one man as recently as Klipsch
was, even though its probably been a decade or more since Klipsch controlled
the day-to-day operations of the company named after him.

Furthermore, the Altec Lansing company of today shares little with the
company that it was when it was competing with Paul Klipsch in the high end
audio market.

Keep in mind that they have an almost $2000 two-way speaker.

I'm sure that if you do that, you're paying a lot for the designer's
skill, experience and track record.

What kind of track record does Bugtussel have?

Asked and answered as well as I can answer.

Keep in mind the other examples I listed.

And mine as well. You've previously trashed one of the most
"experienced" speaker companies in history.

I did not. If you reproduced my alleged trashing of this company, we'd get a
good laugh.

Why? Partially because it
was *me* talking about them and partially because you believe in other
speaker topographies.

Not at all.