Re: Do i need a capcitator?

[that guy]

A capacitor will act as a shock absorber "electrically" a 1500watt Amp
is a lot but if you have a good charging system in your car and are
using the proper size cables the cap. will reduce noise and should help
out. one thing you should consider is how much power do you really need
"more power sometimes is not always better" I think you would be
surprised if you installed a meter and saw just how much power you are
using.


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[Richard[_3_]]

"that guy" > wrote in message
...
>
> A capacitor will act as a shock absorber "electrically" a 1500watt Amp
> is a lot but if you have a good charging system in your car and are
> using the proper size cables the cap. will reduce noise and should help
> out. one thing you should consider is how much power do you really need
> "more power sometimes is not always better" I think you would be
> surprised if you installed a meter and saw just how much power you are
> using.
>

Likely, an average of 1 to 5 watts.

Richard

[ledcustoms]

you'll be alright without a cap, but its nice to have. your bass will
hit harder and your dome light wont fade out


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[RedWood]

From what i've seen in the past your battery should be able to handle
the load without any problem. A capacitor generally holds 1 farad of
energy, however your battery has hundred of farads of energy. If you
want to test this theory out use the capacitor in your system setup,
turn the radio on, then disconnect the battery and tell me how long the
music takes to stop..... lasts less than a second. If you went totally
cheap on your amplifier it may not be a bad idea to purchase a
capacitor. Cheap amplifiers draw currents inconsistently and put out
power inconsistently. The capacitor will help level this out a bit
(sometimes doesn't help at all). You definitely don't have anything to
loose if you choose to use a capacitor. :D


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[Captain Howdy[_3_]]

your battery has hundred of farads of energy? WTF?


In article >, RedWood
> wrote:
>
>From what i've seen in the past your battery should be able to handle
>the load without any problem. A capacitor generally holds 1 farad of
>energy, however your battery has hundred of farads of energy. If you
>want to test this theory out use the capacitor in your system setup,
>turn the radio on, then disconnect the battery and tell me how long the
>music takes to stop..... lasts less than a second. If you went totally
>cheap on your amplifier it may not be a bad idea to purchase a
>capacitor. Cheap amplifiers draw currents inconsistently and put out
>power inconsistently. The capacitor will help level this out a bit
>(sometimes doesn't help at all). You definitely don't have anything to
>loose if you choose to use a capacitor. :D
>
>

[RedWood[_2_]]

Captain Howdy Wrote:
> your battery has hundred of farads of energy? WTF?
>
>
> >
> >[/color]

let me school you newb

Farad

A capacitor's storage potential, or capacitance, is measured in units
called farads. A 1-farad capacitor can store one coulomb (coo-lomb) of
charge at 1 volt. A coulomb is 6.25e18 (6.25 * 10^18, or 6.25 billion
billion) electrons. One amp represents a rate of electron flow of 1
coulomb of electrons per second, so a 1-farad capacitor can hold 1
amp-second of electrons at 1 volt.

Your car battery will power at 80v, thats the constant power and will
run faster than 1 amp=second of electrons at 80v.


go back to school you jerkey :rolleyes:


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[Christopher \Torroid\ Ott]

Oh please, do continue! I haven't seen such an incoherent rambling since
that "Al Gore flick". Seriously, this was so stupid I don't even know where
to begin correcting it.

These Web-to-Usenet portals seem to bring in the real boneheads...



"RedWood" > wrote in message
...
>
> Captain Howdy Wrote:
>> your battery has hundred of farads of energy? WTF?
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>
> let me school you newb
>
> Farad
>
> A capacitor's storage potential, or capacitance, is measured in units
> called farads. A 1-farad capacitor can store one coulomb (coo-lomb) of
> charge at 1 volt. A coulomb is 6.25e18 (6.25 * 10^18, or 6.25 billion
> billion) electrons. One amp represents a rate of electron flow of 1
> coulomb of electrons per second, so a 1-farad capacitor can hold 1
> amp-second of electrons at 1 volt.
>
> Your car battery will power at 80v, thats the constant power and will
> run faster than 1 amp=second of electrons at 80v.
>
>
> go back to school you jerkey :rolleyes:
>
>
> --
> RedWood
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> RedWood's Profile: 53605
> View this thread:
> http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=281922
> CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over TWO million posts online!
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
> [/color]

[Matt Ion]

Christopher "Torroid" Ott wrote:
> Oh please, do continue! I haven't seen such an incoherent rambling since
> that "Al Gore flick". Seriously, this was so stupid I don't even know where
> to begin correcting it.
>
> These Web-to-Usenet portals seem to bring in the real boneheads...

Well, his basic science is correct... his terminology, math and English,
on the other hand, are highly suspect.

A FARAD is a unit of CAPACITANCE, not of energy or storage or anything
else. Yeah, car batteries do have CAPACITANCE by their very design -
two electrodes (plates) separated by a dielectic. The CAPACITANCE of a
typical car battery, however, is miniscule.


> "RedWood" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Captain Howdy Wrote:
>>> your battery has hundred of farads of energy? WTF?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>> let me school you newb
>>
>> Farad
>>
>> A capacitor's storage potential, or capacitance, is measured in units
>> called farads. A 1-farad capacitor can store one coulomb (coo-lomb) of
>> charge at 1 volt. A coulomb is 6.25e18 (6.25 * 10^18, or 6.25 billion
>> billion) electrons. One amp represents a rate of electron flow of 1
>> coulomb of electrons per second, so a 1-farad capacitor can hold 1
>> amp-second of electrons at 1 volt.
>>
>> Your car battery will power at 80v, thats the constant power and will
>> run faster than 1 amp=second of electrons at 80v.
>>
>>
>> go back to school you jerkey :rolleyes:
>>
>>
>> --
>> RedWood
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> RedWood's Profile: 53605
>> View this thread:
>> http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=281922
>> CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over TWO million posts online!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>
>
> [/color]

[Mariachi]

On Oct 25, 1:40 pm, RedWood >
wrote:
> Captain Howdy Wrote:
>
> > your battery has hundred of farads of energy? WTF?
>
> > >
>
> let me school you newb
>
> Farad
>
> A capacitor's storage potential, or capacitance, is measured in units
> called farads. A 1-farad capacitor can store one coulomb (coo-lomb) of
> charge at 1 volt. A coulomb is 6.25e18 (6.25 * 10^18, or 6.25 billion
> billion) electrons. One amp represents a rate of electron flow of 1
> coulomb of electrons per second, so a 1-farad capacitor can hold 1
> amp-second of electrons at 1 volt.
>
> Your car battery will power at 80v, thats the constant power and will
> run faster than 1 amp=second of electrons at 80v.
>
> go back to school you jerkey :rolleyes:
>
> --
> RedWood
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> RedWood's Profile: 53605
> View this thread:http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=281922
> CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over TWO million posts online!
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com[/color]

I have been educated. Thank you RedWood for your PROFESSIONAL
input.
I have learned that my car battery will power at 80V (instead of 12V),
so therefore I must be more cautious around car batteries.


P.S. I believe the correct term for discussing battery storage is Ah
(Ampere hours). Al Gore rocks! Peace!

[Captain Howdy[_3_]]

Now that you made everyone reading your post that much dumber, makes me
wanna stick a light bulb in your mouth and a capacitor up your ass to see if
you light up when I **** on your forehead.


In article >, RedWood
> wrote:
>
>Captain Howdy Wrote:
>> your battery has hundred of farads of energy? WTF?
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>
>let me school you newb
>
>Farad
>
>A capacitor's storage potential, or capacitance, is measured in units
>called farads. A 1-farad capacitor can store one coulomb (coo-lomb) of
>charge at 1 volt. A coulomb is 6.25e18 (6.25 * 10^18, or 6.25 billion
>billion) electrons. One amp represents a rate of electron flow of 1
>coulomb of electrons per second, so a 1-farad capacitor can hold 1
>amp-second of electrons at 1 volt.
>
>Your car battery will power at 80v, thats the constant power and will
>run faster than 1 amp=second of electrons at 80v.
>
>
>go back to school you jerkey :rolleyes:
>
>[/color]

[Mariachi]

> let me school you newb
> go back to school you jerkey :rolleyes:

reminds me of Bill O'Reilly, Hannity and Colmes.

BTW, off topic, but a real important great documentary (thought I
might help spread the word):
http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3858797/Endgame-Blueprint.For.Global.Enslavement%5B2007%5DAlex.Jon es%5BEng%5D-Pr


And I'm still waiting for someone with intelligence and actual
experience to comment about capacitors (I was interested myself).

[Christopher \Torroid\ Ott]

"Mariachi" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> And I'm still waiting for someone with intelligence and actual
> experience to comment about capacitors (I was interested myself).

I think this originated from a website and got dumped to RAC mid thread, so
I don't know the details of the original question. As a general rule,
additional capacitance will not hurt anything. I know some people believe
large caps will drain their battery, but this isn't true as the leakage
current for even the lowest quality large caps is still in the microamp
range.

Why add a capacitor? Large car amplifiers must use a switching power supply
to get split supplies (+\- power rails) from the +14 volt available from the
alternator. This is a giant P.I.T.A. and is where most of the complexity and
expense of a car amplifier is at. Generally speaking, switching power
supplies have an input capacitor bank and an output capacitor bank. The
output caps are at the voltage rails and are essentially fixed as you have
no access to them. The input caps are needed to prevent the power supply
from drawing huge instantaneous currents from the alternator and battery.
These are mounted on the PCB inside the amp but are essentially at the same
node as the +batt (there is usually a fuse between them). This means that we
can increase the input caps to virtually any value we want by adding
additional caps to the +batt outside the amp. To get the maximum benefit,
these should be physically close to the amp, and the wires should be as
large as practical.

Why would we do this? There are benefits to keeping the amps power supply
voltage at the max possible. It prevents large currents from being drawn to
compensate for the voltage dipping. This reduces heat at the power supply
FETs (which are heated by current flow, voltage is irrelevant here) and has
a nice side effect of not putting huge instantaneous loads on the
alternator. This means your lights won't dim and because the ignition coil
will get full voltage, the engine won't lag. Unregulated power supplies will
see an increase in power output and both regulated and unregulated power
supplies will see a decrease in heat buildup.

Can't we just upgrade or rewind the alternator? Yes and no. If your
alternator is undersized a larger one can help, but still cannot ever
provide the instantaneous current that a cap can. A larger alternator puts a
small additional drain on the engine all the time. Also rewound alternators
often have a different power curve which doesn't produce much power at low
idle. It's really about balance here. The alternator should be large enough
to run the car, charge the battery and power your system with the lights and
a/c on. Beefing up from there is not necessary.

Chris

[Mariachi]

On Oct 27, 2:13 pm, "Christopher \"Torroid\" Ott" <spamtrap at
ottelectronics dot com> wrote:
> "Mariachi" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
> > And I'm still waiting for someone with intelligence and actual
> > experience to comment about capacitors (I was interested myself).
>
> I think this originated from a website and got dumped to RAC mid thread, so
> I don't know the details of the original question. As a general rule,
> additional capacitance will not hurt anything. I know some people believe
> large caps will drain their battery, but this isn't true as the leakage
> current for even the lowest quality large caps is still in the microamp
> range.
>
> Why add a capacitor? Large car amplifiers must use a switching power supply
> to get split supplies (+\- power rails) from the +14 volt available from the
> alternator. This is a giant P.I.T.A. and is where most of the complexity and
> expense of a car amplifier is at. Generally speaking, switching power
> supplies have an input capacitor bank and an output capacitor bank. The
> output caps are at the voltage rails and are essentially fixed as you have
> no access to them. The input caps are needed to prevent the power supply
> from drawing huge instantaneous currents from the alternator and battery.
> These are mounted on the PCB inside the amp but are essentially at the same
> node as the +batt (there is usually a fuse between them). This means that we
> can increase the input caps to virtually any value we want by adding
> additional caps to the +batt outside the amp. To get the maximum benefit,
> these should be physically close to the amp, and the wires should be as
> large as practical.
>
> Why would we do this? There are benefits to keeping the amps power supply
> voltage at the max possible. It prevents large currents from being drawn to
> compensate for the voltage dipping. This reduces heat at the power supply
> FETs (which are heated by current flow, voltage is irrelevant here) and has
> a nice side effect of not putting huge instantaneous loads on the
> alternator. This means your lights won't dim and because the ignition coil
> will get full voltage, the engine won't lag. Unregulated power supplies will
> see an increase in power output and both regulated and unregulated power
> supplies will see a decrease in heat buildup.
>
> Can't we just upgrade or rewind the alternator? Yes and no. If your
> alternator is undersized a larger one can help, but still cannot ever
> provide the instantaneous current that a cap can. A larger alternator puts a
> small additional drain on the engine all the time. Also rewound alternators
> often have a different power curve which doesn't produce much power at low
> idle. It's really about balance here. The alternator should be large enough
> to run the car, charge the battery and power your system with the lights and
> a/c on. Beefing up from there is not necessary.
>
> Chris

Thanks for your input. I'm running probably a 420 Watt system, but
I'm probably only using half of that 95% of the time. I was planning
on adding an 8" polk momo subwoofer in a sealed box, and placing it
behind the front seat of my car (sub is rated for 30-200W).
Therefore, I'll be using around 300 W (average power) most likely for
the whole system. I just wondered if it was really necessary to
upgrade my battery and my alternator, or just buy a .5-1 Farad
capacitor for my 3 amplifiers. I have a 4 cylinder engine, so the
alternator might not be the best.

[Christopher \Torroid\ Ott]

"Mariachi" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Oct 27, 2:13 pm, "Christopher \"Torroid\" Ott" <spamtrap at
> ottelectronics dot com> wrote:
>> "Mariachi" > wrote in message
>>
>> ups.com...
>>
>> > And I'm still waiting for someone with intelligence and actual
>> > experience to comment about capacitors (I was interested myself).
>>
>> I think this originated from a website and got dumped to RAC mid thread,
>> so
>> I don't know the details of the original question. As a general rule,
>> additional capacitance will not hurt anything. I know some people believe
>> large caps will drain their battery, but this isn't true as the leakage
>> current for even the lowest quality large caps is still in the microamp
>> range.
>>
>> Why add a capacitor? Large car amplifiers must use a switching power
>> supply
>> to get split supplies (+\- power rails) from the +14 volt available from
>> the
>> alternator. This is a giant P.I.T.A. and is where most of the complexity
>> and
>> expense of a car amplifier is at. Generally speaking, switching power
>> supplies have an input capacitor bank and an output capacitor bank. The
>> output caps are at the voltage rails and are essentially fixed as you
>> have
>> no access to them. The input caps are needed to prevent the power supply
>> from drawing huge instantaneous currents from the alternator and battery.
>> These are mounted on the PCB inside the amp but are essentially at the
>> same
>> node as the +batt (there is usually a fuse between them). This means that
>> we
>> can increase the input caps to virtually any value we want by adding
>> additional caps to the +batt outside the amp. To get the maximum benefit,
>> these should be physically close to the amp, and the wires should be as
>> large as practical.
>>
>> Why would we do this? There are benefits to keeping the amps power supply
>> voltage at the max possible. It prevents large currents from being drawn
>> to
>> compensate for the voltage dipping. This reduces heat at the power supply
>> FETs (which are heated by current flow, voltage is irrelevant here) and
>> has
>> a nice side effect of not putting huge instantaneous loads on the
>> alternator. This means your lights won't dim and because the ignition
>> coil
>> will get full voltage, the engine won't lag. Unregulated power supplies
>> will
>> see an increase in power output and both regulated and unregulated power
>> supplies will see a decrease in heat buildup.
>>
>> Can't we just upgrade or rewind the alternator? Yes and no. If your
>> alternator is undersized a larger one can help, but still cannot ever
>> provide the instantaneous current that a cap can. A larger alternator
>> puts a
>> small additional drain on the engine all the time. Also rewound
>> alternators
>> often have a different power curve which doesn't produce much power at
>> low
>> idle. It's really about balance here. The alternator should be large
>> enough
>> to run the car, charge the battery and power your system with the lights
>> and
>> a/c on. Beefing up from there is not necessary.
>>
>> Chris
>
> Thanks for your input. I'm running probably a 420 Watt system, but
> I'm probably only using half of that 95% of the time. I was planning
> on adding an 8" polk momo subwoofer in a sealed box, and placing it
> behind the front seat of my car (sub is rated for 30-200W).
> Therefore, I'll be using around 300 W (average power) most likely for
> the whole system. I just wondered if it was really necessary to
> upgrade my battery and my alternator, or just buy a .5-1 Farad
> capacitor for my 3 amplifiers. I have a 4 cylinder engine, so the
> alternator might not be the best.

If you have trouble with the lights dimming or the bass seems to flatten out
on longer notes, than you would be an excellent candidate for a stiffening
cap. 0.5 - 1.0 would be fine. Be sure to follow the instructions for
charging it on the initial install, or you'll draw quite an arc when you
make the connection.

There was a time when a 4 cylinder meant the engine was weak, but that's no
longer true. Case in point, I test drove a Subaru WRX STI last year and it
took the rest of the day to wipe the grin off my face. ;-)

[Richard[_3_]]

" I'm running probably a 420 Watt system, but I'm probably only using half
of that 95% of the time."

You are likely using less than 5 watts RMS 95% of the time. Except for a
sealed sub, a real sub, car speakers tend not to suck all that much power
from an amp, even when played very loud.

Richard

[Mariachi]

On Nov 1, 1:34 pm, "Richard" > wrote:
> " I'm running probably a 420 Watt system, but I'm probably only using half
> of that 95% of the time."
>
> You are likely using less than 5 watts RMS 95% of the time. Except for a
> sealed sub, a real sub, car speakers tend not to suck all that much power
> from an amp, even when played very loud.
>
> Richard

you don't know how loud I play my music. I definitely use more than 5
watts per speaker. I listen to my music 2 times louder than the max
SPL my head unit could pump out (which was 17 Watts per speaker). So
who's to say I'm not using around 25 Watts per speaker, especially for
speakers with a 90 dB sensitivity? Saying that I use less than 5
Watts is kind of unreasonable.

[kahooli]

well..consider that RMS method only really applies to voltage and
current,
The rms values of current and voltage multiplied together give the
actual power.
no one ever uses any 'RMS' watts. cheers.


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[Mariachi]

On Nov 3, 1:44 pm, kahooli >
wrote:
> well..consider that RMS method only really applies to voltage and
> current,
> The rms values of current and voltage multiplied together give the
> actual power.
> no one ever uses any 'RMS' watts. cheers.
>
> --
> kahooli
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

P = V * I ... and your point? RMS watts is an electrical term, same
with RMS volts, and RMS amps. RMS Watts == RMS volts * RMS amps. Who
would mention that your speaker is running at 2 RMS Volts and 1 RMS
Amps. Noone. It is much simpler to say RMS Watts.

[Matt Ion]

Mariachi wrote:
> On Nov 3, 1:44 pm, kahooli >
> wrote:
>> well..consider that RMS method only really applies to voltage and
>> current,
>> The rms values of current and voltage multiplied together give the
>> actual power.
>> no one ever uses any 'RMS' watts. cheers.
>>
>> --
>> kahooli
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> kahooli's Profile: 34304
>> View this thread:http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=281922
>> CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over TWO million posts online!
>>
>> --
>> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
>
> P = V * I ... and your point? RMS watts is an electrical term, same
> with RMS volts, and RMS amps. RMS Watts == RMS volts * RMS amps. Who
> would mention that your speaker is running at 2 RMS Volts and 1 RMS
> Amps. Noone. It is much simpler to say RMS Watts.

WTF is an "RMS amp"??

RMS = Root Mean Square, a mathematical method of calculating the actual
CONSTANT voltage of a waveform, as separate from peak-to-peak voltage.

There's no such thing as an "RMS amp".

[Eric Desrochers[_2_]]

> no one ever uses any 'RMS' watts.

Those web forums posts crossposted here have to stop. (Rolling eyes...)

--
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http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

" Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95 "

[Christopher \Torroid\ Ott]

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:hUaYi.187085$th2.170086@pd7urf3no...
> Mariachi wrote:
>> On Nov 3, 1:44 pm, kahooli >
>> wrote:
>>> well..consider that RMS method only really applies to voltage and
>>> current,
>>> The rms values of current and voltage multiplied together give the
>>> actual power.
>>> no one ever uses any 'RMS' watts. cheers.
>>>
>>> --
>>> kahooli
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> kahooli's Profile: 34304
>>> View this
>>> thread:http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=281922
>>> CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over TWO million posts online!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
>>
>> P = V * I ... and your point? RMS watts is an electrical term, same
>> with RMS volts, and RMS amps. RMS Watts == RMS volts * RMS amps. Who
>> would mention that your speaker is running at 2 RMS Volts and 1 RMS
>> Amps. Noone. It is much simpler to say RMS Watts.
>
> WTF is an "RMS amp"??
>
> RMS = Root Mean Square, a mathematical method of calculating the actual
> CONSTANT voltage of a waveform, as separate from peak-to-peak voltage.
>
> There's no such thing as an "RMS amp".

Amps (RMS) is a perfectly valid term, however because voltage and current do
not track each other in inductive circuits we cannot really use RMS for
loudspeaker power. It's correct for amplifier power provided you're driving
a resistive load. It is generally understood within engineering circles that
when someone refers to RMS power they mean average power. For some reason
the hifi crowd seems to get really ****ed off about this.

Wikipedia has a good definition of RMS which explains it's role in
mathematics, not just how it's applied in electronics.

Chris