HOW OLD are you?

[[email protected]]

I'm 35. Engineer. And you?

I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.

[Don Pearce]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:42:46 -0700, wrote:

>I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
>I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.

I'm 57, and I'd like to say I'm an engineer, but the word is debased
currency these days. People like me, who have done the studying, can
design systems and circuits, write international standards, climb a
transmitter tower in a gale, get you a telecomms license and shmooze
middle eastern potentates etc etc are engineers.

The chap who comes to look at my busted washing machine and announce
it is beyond repair - he is an engineer too, as is the bloke who sits
at a mixing desk with not the slightest clue as to what he is doing,
and moves a fader while trying to look cool.

I don't feel that inclined to call myself an engineer these days.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Ken]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:42:46 -0700, wrote:

> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.

I'm 53. Engineer.

[Michael Black]

) writes:
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>
ANd this is a nonsense post.

You've cross-posted it to
rec.audio.tech
rec.audio.car
rec.radio.shortwave
ba.broadcast

Realistically they have nothing in common. Even the last two
are a stretch.

The question has no relevance in the first place, because
there's no context to the point of the question, and once
you cross-post there is nothing at all in common.

You might as well have asked "What did you have for breakfast"
because it would have been just as off-topic to all four
newsgroups, and be just been as nonsensical to the groups
as your actual question.

Michael

[Sanjaya]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>

55. Teacher

[John Slade]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>

To a head of lettuce I am very old. However compared to a mountain, I
have not yet begun in years.

You're as young as you feel and as old as you act. Age is nothing but a
number...

John

[The Shadow]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>

76 years old, retired Hewlett-Packard Technical Writer, AA Degree
Electronics, Amateur Extra since 1977, US Navy Korean War - Aviation
Electronics Tech AT1

SWL frequently

The Old Shadow do

[[email protected]]

Soundhaspriority wrote:
> "Don Pearce" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> > I'm 57, and I'd like to say I'm an engineer, but the word is debased
> > currency these days. People like me, who have done the studying, can
> > design systems and circuits, write international standards, climb a
> > transmitter tower in a gale, get you a telecomms license and shmooze
> > middle eastern potentates etc etc are engineers.
> >
> Designing circuits and writing standards will get you "engineer." The other
> things you mention are too nebulous to qualify for a title, but they're good
> things to be good at.


Yes. I believe the word you're looking for is "technician" - somebody
who knows how to fix various things and assemble them, but doesn't
know how to design, because they typically have only 2 years of
college or trade school.


> He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand synchronous
> detection, which may predate single side band, pre 1952.

Is "he" refering to me? Well sorry to disappoint you, but a lot of
that stuff is passe', and no longer taught in college. I studied
digital circuit design and digital signal processing at Penn State.
No analog stuff other than the basics (op-amps).

[Mariachi]

On Sep 30, 3:40 pm, "The Shadow" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
> > I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> > I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>
> 76 years old, retired Hewlett-Packard Technical Writer, AA Degree
> Electronics, Amateur Extra since 1977, US Navy Korean War - Aviation
> Electronics Tech AT1
>
> SWL frequently
>
> The Old Shadow do

I'm 20. Candidate for a Bachelors degree in Electro-Optics in applied
Physics with a minor in Computer Science..

I created most of the infrared focal plane array test program for anti-
missile defense and worked on other various electro-optic projects
throughout my work experience, and before that I was a physics tutor
for numerous college students. I've been playing piano for more than
14 years and still continue to play. I wrote a research paper on
LED's in an RC circuit.

[msg]

Michael Black wrote:

<snip>

> You might as well have asked "What did you have for breakfast"
> because it would have been just as off-topic to all four
> newsgroups, and be just been as nonsensical to the groups
> as your actual question.
>

Well discussing breakfast would IMHO be far more on-topic
than the vast majority of posts to rec.radio.shortwave.

I would support a campaign to improve the S/N ratio
on r.r.s.

Regards,

Michael

[Karl Uppiano]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Soundhaspriority wrote:
>> "Don Pearce" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>>
>> > I'm 57, and I'd like to say I'm an engineer, but the word is debased
>> > currency these days. People like me, who have done the studying, can
>> > design systems and circuits, write international standards, climb a
>> > transmitter tower in a gale, get you a telecomms license and shmooze
>> > middle eastern potentates etc etc are engineers.
>> >
>> Designing circuits and writing standards will get you "engineer." The
>> other
>> things you mention are too nebulous to qualify for a title, but they're
>> good
>> things to be good at.
>
>
> Yes. I believe the word you're looking for is "technician" - somebody
> who knows how to fix various things and assemble them, but doesn't
> know how to design, because they typically have only 2 years of
> college or trade school.
>
>
>> He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand synchronous
>> detection, which may predate single side band, pre 1952.
>
> Is "he" refering to me? Well sorry to disappoint you, but a lot of
> that stuff is passe', and no longer taught in college. I studied
> digital circuit design and digital signal processing at Penn State.
> No analog stuff other than the basics (op-amps).

Modulation and information theory are not "passé".

[[email protected]]

On Sep 30, 3:03 pm, "Karl Uppiano" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
> > Soundhaspriority wrote:

>
> >> He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand synchronous
> >> detection, which may predate single side band, pre 1952.
>
> > Is "he" refering to me? Well sorry to disappoint you, but a lot of
> > that stuff is passe', and no longer taught in college. I studied
> > digital circuit design and digital signal processing at Penn State.
> > No analog stuff other than the basics (op-amps).
>
> Modulation and information theory are not "passé".


I didn't say it was. I said ANALOG theory was. Digital of course
still has relevance.

[Don Pearce]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:26:16 -0700, wrote:

>On Sep 30, 3:03 pm, "Karl Uppiano" > wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> > Soundhaspriority wrote:
>
>>
>> >> He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand synchronous
>> >> detection, which may predate single side band, pre 1952.
>>
>> > Is "he" refering to me? Well sorry to disappoint you, but a lot of
>> > that stuff is passe', and no longer taught in college. I studied
>> > digital circuit design and digital signal processing at Penn State.
>> > No analog stuff other than the basics (op-amps).
>>
>> Modulation and information theory are not "passé".
>
>
>I didn't say it was. I said ANALOG theory was. Digital of course
>still has relevance.
>
But every digital device is full of analogue devices. Not only that,
but they run so quickly that you need to be highly competent in
distributed circuit theory and microwave design techniques.

Digital is only of use if you do your engineering at the LEGO level.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Brian[_8_]]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>

Accounting Student/Forklift Driver

-Brian

[Phil Kane]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:35:59 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

>>> >> He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand synchronous
>>> >> detection, which may predate single side band, pre 1952.

He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand three-phase
power generation and transmission as well. Learning all that was
necessary before we could learn electronics in every major engineering
school.

>>> > Is "he" refering to me? Well sorry to disappoint you, but a lot of
>>> > that stuff is passe', and no longer taught in college. I studied
>>> > digital circuit design and digital signal processing at Penn State.
>>> > No analog stuff other than the basics (op-amps).
>>>
>>> Modulation and information theory are not "passé".

And as I stated above, neither is power generation and distribution.
Where does he think the power comes from? The wall? And how does it
get there? God puts it there? And how does it get from the wall into
the digital gizmos?

>>I didn't say it was. I said ANALOG theory was. Digital of course
>>still has relevance.
>>
>But every digital device is full of analogue devices. Not only that,
>but they run so quickly that you need to be highly competent in
>distributed circuit theory and microwave design techniques.
>
>Digital is only of use if you do your engineering at the LEGO level.

Perhaps after he has 40-50 years of experience -- if he lasts that
long -- he will realize that basics are still basic.
--
Philip M. Kane P E / Esq.
VP - Regulatory Counsel & Engineering Manager
CSI Telecommunication Consulting Engineers
San Francisco, CA - Beaverton, OR

[Eric F. Richards]

"Karl Uppiano" > wrote:

>
>
> Modulation and information theory are not "passé".
>

Don't confuse Eduardo, er, "SFTV," he has all the answers.

Oh, "SFTV," 44, computer science and mathematics, and an engineer.
And I use the term with pride and defend against those who misuse it.

Those would include YOU. You are the most childlike 35 year old I've
run across. I know 21 year olds with more maturity.

[Peter]

On 2007-09-30 11:42:46 -0700, said:

> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?

EE, mainframe computer hardware and software development engineer
(retired). Over 60.

[RHF]

On Sep 30, 11:42 am, wrote:
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.

SFTV - Neither of Which Matter.

Do You Listen to Over-the-Air AM/MW and Shortwave Radio
is the "Only" Qualification To Be Here and Post Here [.]

AGE - I am Old Enough To Listen To The Radio An Enjoy It.

OCCUPATION / ADVOCATION - Radio Listener.

~ RHF

I Ask Myself : What IBOC ?
All I See Is The Blinking Blue Light ! ~ RHF
In That Distant Land* Where IBOC Fears To Go :
Life Exists and Radio Listeners Live Beyond the 10mv/m Contour.
* Twain Harte, CA -USA-

[RHF]

On Sep 30, 11:55 am, (Don Pearce) wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:42:46 -0700, wrote:
> >I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> >I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>
> I'm 57, and I'd like to say I'm an engineer, but the word is debased
> currency these days. People like me, who have done the studying, can
> design systems and circuits, write international standards, climb a
> transmitter tower in a gale, get you a telecomms license and shmooze
> middle eastern potentates etc etc are engineers.
>
> The chap who comes to look at my busted washing machine and announce
> it is beyond repair - he is an engineer too, as is the bloke who sits
> at a mixing desk with not the slightest clue as to what he is doing,
> and moves a fader while trying to look cool.
>
> I don't feel that inclined to call myself an engineer these days.
>
> d
>
> --
> Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com

The Ubiquitous "Sanitation Engineer" ! -a la- Dilbert ;-}
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/the_characters/html/character3.html

[RHF]

On Sep 30, 12:46 pm, wrote:
> Soundhaspriority wrote:
> > "Don Pearce" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > >>I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> > > I'm 57, and I'd like to say I'm an engineer, but the word is debased
> > > currency these days. People like me, who have done the studying, can
> > > design systems and circuits, write international standards, climb a
> > > transmitter tower in a gale, get you a telecomms license and shmooze
> > > middle eastern potentates etc etc are engineers.
>
> > Designing circuits and writing standards will get you "engineer." The other
> > things you mention are too nebulous to qualify for a title, but they're good
> > things to be good at.
>
> Yes. I believe the word you're looking for is "technician" - somebody
> who knows how to fix various things and assemble them, but doesn't
> know how to design, because they typically have only 2 years of
> college or trade school.
>
> > He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand synchronous
> > detection, which may predate single side band, pre 1952.
>
> Is "he" refering to me? Well sorry to disappoint you, but a lot of
> that stuff is passe', and no longer taught in college. I studied
> digital circuit design and digital signal processing at Penn State.
> No analog stuff other than the basics (op-amps).

SFTV,

All That Does Not Matter - Do You Listen to Free Over-the-Air
AM/MW and Shortwave Radio ?

Are You An Avid AM/MW and Shortwave Radio Listener.

I Ask Myself : What IBOC ?
All I See Is The Blinking Blue Light ! ~ RHF
In That Distant Land* Where IBOC Fears To Go :
Life Exists and Radio Listeners Live Beyond the 10mv/m Contour.
* Twain Harte, CA -USA-

[John Slade]

"Michael Black" > wrote in message
...
> ) writes:
>> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>>
>> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>>
> ANd this is a nonsense post.
>
> You've cross-posted it to
> rec.audio.tech
> rec.audio.car
> rec.radio.shortwave
> ba.broadcast
>
> Realistically they have nothing in common. Even the last two
> are a stretch.
>
> The question has no relevance in the first place, because
> there's no context to the point of the question, and once
> you cross-post there is nothing at all in common.
>
> You might as well have asked "What did you have for breakfast"
> because it would have been just as off-topic to all four
> newsgroups, and be just been as nonsensical to the groups
> as your actual question.
>
> Michael
>

And I agree, that's why I have a nonsense answer. Age has nothing to do
with it. I've met young folk who act really mature and older people who act
like little kids.

John

[RHF]

On Sep 30, 2:32 pm, Eric F. Richards > wrote:
> "Karl Uppiano" > wrote:
>
> > Modulation and information theory are not "passé".
>
> Don't confuse Eduardo, er, "SFTV," he has all the answers.
>
> Oh, "SFTV," 44, computer science and mathematics, and an engineer.
> And I use the term with pride and defend against those who misuse it.
>
> Those would include YOU. You are the most childlike 35 year old I've
> run across. I know 21 year olds with more maturity.

EFR - I still think SFTV is "Radium". ~ RHF
.

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

wrote:
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>

54
http://www.neopax.com/

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing classes in London

[Phil Kane]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:02:17 -0700, SFTV_troy >
wrote:

>> He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand three-phase
>> power generation and transmission as well. Learning all that was
>> necessary before we could learn electronics in every major engineering
>> school.
>
>That was optional at Penn State. I never took it.

When I went to engineering school at one of the Big Three there were
no "optional" engineering courses. We had to take, understand, and
pass all courses which were thrown at us or go spend out time
elsewhere. Some of them, such as Atomic Physics, were very obscure. I
knew electronics, but for the power courses I had to bust my hump.
That's why I still remember them and retain some competence after all
the years of doing communications engineering.

>Doubtful. Engineering is boring; you sit in a damn cube all day long,
>staring at a computer. I've been saving every penny, such that I will
>be able to retire at 40-45. Or semi-retire (only take jobs I like).

If you sit in a "damn cube all day long staring at a computer" you
are no more than a designer - the bottom rung of engineering. Do you
get out in the field to see and evaluate your projects "in action"? Do
you have X years of experience or one year of experience X times?

>Engineering is dull.

I too found design dull. When I started to do real engineering
(project analysis and management) it was far from dull. If you find it
dull, go do something else that will turn you on, and stop wasting
your time and that of your employer(s).
--
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[RWW]

wrote:
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.

44. Shower curtain ring salesman.

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

Cubit wrote:
> "Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> wrote:
>>> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>>>
>>> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>>>
>> 54
>> http://www.neopax.com/
>>
>> --
>> Dirk
>>
>> http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
>> Remote Viewing classes in London
>
> Remote Viewing!
>
> It makes me wonder what percentage of the GDP is dedicated to things that do
> not exist.

Like qubits?


--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing classes in London

[David Kaye]

On Sep 30, 11:55 am, (Don Pearce) wrote:

> he is an engineer too, as is the bloke who sits
> at a mixing desk with not the slightest clue as to what he is doing,
> and moves a fader while trying to look cool.

I don't call those people engineers, and any self-respecting
broadcaster would not, either. Those are board operators. In TV the
same function is called a TD or technical director, or simply a
switcher. A TD would be laughed out of the control room if he called
himself an engineer.

I'm mystified as to why this topic was crossposted to 4 disparate
newsgroups with little relation to each other. I don't even know who
any of the respondents are, except for Phil Kane.

[Cubit]

"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>>
>> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>>
>
> 54
> http://www.neopax.com/
>
> --
> Dirk
>
> http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
> Remote Viewing classes in London

Remote Viewing!

It makes me wonder what percentage of the GDP is dedicated to things that do
not exist.

[Arny Krueger]

> wrote in message
oups.com

> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?

I'm 60 and I'm a degreed engineer. Professionally, I've spent more time
doing IT than anything else.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 30, 1:42 pm, wrote:
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.

I am a 44 year old single gay white male. 5' 7" tall, 313 lbs. I am
unable to work due to my weight and other health problems I would
rather not go into. Thanks to social security disability payments and
other government assistance I am able to enjoy many of my hobbies
which include shortwave radio.

A.W.S.
President
GLT Shortwave Club

[Telamon]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.

I'm old enough to know better. Maybe you will be a grownup some day.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

[Telamon]

In article om>,
wrote:

> On Sep 30, 3:03 pm, "Karl Uppiano" > wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > > Soundhaspriority wrote:
>
> >
> > >> He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand synchronous
> > >> detection, which may predate single side band, pre 1952.
> >
> > > Is "he" refering to me? Well sorry to disappoint you, but a lot of
> > > that stuff is passe', and no longer taught in college. I studied
> > > digital circuit design and digital signal processing at Penn State.
> > > No analog stuff other than the basics (op-amps).
> >
> > Modulation and information theory are not "pass?".
>
>
> I didn't say it was. I said ANALOG theory was. Digital of course
> still has relevance.

Amazing. This is to much!

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

[Telamon]

In article m>,
SFTV_troy > wrote:

> Phil Kane wrote:
> > On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:35:59 GMT, (Don Pearce)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >>> >> He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand synchronous
> > >>> >> detection, which may predate single side band, pre 1952.
> >
> > He can't be a competent engineer if he doesn't understand three-phase
> > power generation and transmission as well. Learning all that was
> > necessary before we could learn electronics in every major engineering
> > school.
>
> That was optional at Penn State. I never took it.
>
>
> > >>I didn't say it was. I said ANALOG theory was. Digital of course
> > >>still has relevance.
> > >>
> > >But every digital device is full of analogue devices. Not only that,
> > >but they run so quickly that you need to be highly competent in
> > >distributed circuit theory and microwave design techniques.
>
> That is true. I was rather surprised on my last project to discover
> myself modeling analog signals, instead of digital. Oh well. Times
> change.
>
>
>
> > Perhaps after he has 40-50 years of experience --
>
> Doubtful. Engineering is boring; you sit in a damn cube all day long,
> staring at a computer. I've been saving every penny, such that I will
> be able to retire at 40-45. Or semi-retire (only take jobs I like).
>
> Engineering is dull.

Well you took a wrong turn didn't you but it's never to late to get into
marketing where you can lie your ass off. It's very exciting, just ask
Eduardo.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

[Telamon]

In article >,
"The Shadow" > wrote:

> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
> >
> > I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
> >
>
> 76 years old, retired Hewlett-Packard Technical Writer, AA Degree
> Electronics, Amateur Extra since 1977, US Navy Korean War - Aviation
> Electronics Tech AT1
>
> SWL frequently
>
> The Old Shadow do

Now that's cool. I've probably read stuff you have written.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

[BigBob]

46 yrs old.
Ex-commercial pilot fixed and heli.
9 years IT - MCSE, (CNA A+) NT4 Win2k, maybe do Win2k3 soon. Do IT for
state/prov Gov't.
5 Alpine oldschool amps 2x 3523, 1x 3525, 2x 3533's waiting for a cool new
ride to install in.
1 Sherwood 5.1 AX-6275 plus decoder, still looking for a head unit.
Drive a Ford.
Big rack of NAD home stuff from the 80's.


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>
>

[Steven]

I was born in the summer of my twenty-seventh year,

[Steven]

On Oct 1, 12:54 am, Steven > wrote:
> I was born in the summer of my twenty-seventh year,

and I left yesterday behind me.

[Brenda Ann]

"Steven" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I was born in the summer of my twenty-seventh year,
>

Going home to a place you've never been before?

[Brenda Ann]

"Steven" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Oct 1, 12:54 am, Steven > wrote:
>> I was born in the summer of my twenty-seventh year,
>
> and I left yesterday behind me.
>

Might say you were born again?

[Bruce Farley]

I am 59 and am a "service technician" (a fancy name for grease monkey)
that works on Honda motorcycles.

wrote:

> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>

[[email protected]]

Telamon wrote:
> SFTV_troy > wrote:
> > Phil Kane wrote:
>
> > > Perhaps after he has 40-50 years of experience --
> >
> > Doubtful. Engineering is boring; you sit in a damn cube all day long,
> > staring at a computer. I've been saving every penny, such that I will
> > be able to retire at 40-45. Or semi-retire (only take jobs I like).
> >
> > Engineering is dull.
>
> Well you took a wrong turn didn't you but it's never to late to get into
> marketing where you can lie your ass off. It's very exciting, just ask
> Eduardo.


I've worked in sales, but I tried to avoid lying. For example when I
was in college I worked for Sears. They instructed me to "sell
extended warranties" I complied, but I also told the customers that I
thought it was un-necessary.

Sears didn't like me very much
- what with telling the truth.

> I'd expect an electrical engineer to be more knowledgeable than
> your posts indicate.

If you think one person can possibly know EVERYTHING there is to know
about the subject of electronics/electrical devices. For example:

- Do you know what VHDL is?
- How about a state machine?
- Synchronous DDR?
- PCI Express?
- Flip-flop?
- What does GCLK mean in the context of FPGAs?
- What are constraints?

This is just a small sample of what I know, because this is what I
work upon every day..... but I suspect a lot of it you have no clue
what it's about. And that's fine. Because I don't expect one person
to know everything there is to know about EE.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 1, 3:23 am, Bruce Farley > wrote:
> I am 59 and am a "service technician" (a fancy name for grease monkey)
> that works on Honda motorcycles.


If you read the thread, you'll see some other very arrogant & very
condescending people who think folks like you are inferior. They
don't consider what you do to be "real" work. (see below).

I am not one of those. I wish I had half the talent you had, when
it comes to hands-on work. (I don't even know how to solder a basic
connection; I can do it, but it's very sloppy.)



On Sep 30, 1:55 pm, (Don Pearce)
>
> I'd like to say I'm an engineer, but the word is debased.....
> The chap who comes to look at my busted washing machine and announce
> it is beyond repair - he is an engineer too, as is the bloke who sits
> at a mixing desk with not the slightest clue as to what he is doing,
> and moves a fader while trying to look cool.
>
> I don't feel that inclined to call myself an engineer these days.

[Richard Crowley]

> wrote ...
> Bruce Farley wrote:
>> I am 59 and am a "service technician" (a fancy name for
>> grease monkey) that works on Honda motorcycles.
>
> If you read the thread, you'll see some other very arrogant & very
> condescending people who think folks like you are inferior. They
> don't consider what you do to be "real" work. (see below).
>
> I am not one of those. I wish I had half the talent you had, when
> it comes to hands-on work. (I don't even know how to solder a basic
> connection; I can do it, but it's very sloppy.)

Note that plumbers, motorcycle mechanics, cabinetmakers,
etc. are the kinds of jobs that cannot be "outsourced" to
foreign shores. Just one of the advantages of doing "real"
(physical) work vs. virtual (mental) work. :-)

There's likely an instructional video on Youtube on how to
solder. OTOH, with the prevalence of SMD, horse-shoeing
may be a more practical skill. :-)

[bob wald]

swm 40....very comfortable.
lol... cant believe half of whats written. alot of yall are too dumb to
be who you say.
but alot makes since. i learnert along time ago. dont get boged down in
tiny details. like some of you.
some things just work.. that you wouldnt expect.
sometimes ya electrical system puts out more than you thought. sometimes
ya speakers handle more than ya thought.
n vice-a-versa.lol

[bob wald]

hey! troy.. back in the 90s. i lost some warrenty paperwork. n you never
sent me another copy....n i forgot about it..when much later i needed
it.
WHERES MY ''XOXOXOX XXOXOX'' MONEY!''
I'll be looking out for you pal...

[Stratum]

wrote:
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.

Lurking on-air personalities who want to know what the
intelligentsia are saying about them. We are the
intelligentsia. We're from outer space and France.

--

It's your lucky day! Listeners to this station have been
selected to receive a free bottle of Omega-3 Fish Oil.

[Steven]

On Oct 1, 1:46 am, "Brenda Ann" > wrote:
> "Steven" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
> > On Oct 1, 12:54 am, Steven > wrote:
> >> I was born in the summer of my twenty-seventh year,
>
> > and I left yesterday behind me.
>
> Might say you were born again?

Dear god, let's not run into any Muppets, K?

[Steven]

On Oct 1, 4:24 am, wrote:
> Telamon wrote:
> > SFTV_troy > wrote:
> > > Phil Kane wrote:
>
> > > > Perhaps after he has 40-50 years of experience --
>
> > > Doubtful. Engineering is boring; you sit in a damn cube all day long,
> > > staring at a computer. I've been saving every penny, such that I will
> > > be able to retire at 40-45. Or semi-retire (only take jobs I like).
>
> > > Engineering is dull.
>
> > Well you took a wrong turn didn't you but it's never to late to get into
> > marketing where you can lie your ass off. It's very exciting, just ask
> > Eduardo.
>
> I've worked in sales, but I tried to avoid lying. For example when I
> was in college I worked for Sears. They instructed me to "sell
> extended warranties" I complied, but I also told the customers that I
> thought it was un-necessary.
>
> Sears didn't like me very much
> - what with telling the truth.
>
> > I'd expect an electrical engineer to be more knowledgeable than
> > your posts indicate.
>
> If you think one person can possibly know EVERYTHING there is to know
> about the subject of electronics/electrical devices. For example:
>
> - Do you know what VHDL is?
> - How about a state machine?
> - Synchronous DDR?
> - PCI Express?
> - Flip-flop?
> - What does GCLK mean in the context of FPGAs?
> - What are constraints?
>
> This is just a small sample of what I know, because this is what I
> work upon every day..... but I suspect a lot of it you have no clue
> what it's about. And that's fine. Because I don't expect one person
> to know everything there is to know about EE.

I know I just bought me a Pioneer laserdisc player that blows PS
fuses, Pioneer DVD/CD 5-disc carousel and Wednesday a Sony CRT
projector then a replacement board and maybe the case, $50 and then
some and a Sony ST-80F tuner (the stand up kind with a round dial).

Do I know if Windows XP is or actually isn't posessed by Linda Blair
and Damien Thorne? Beats me, I cannot beat my computer.

[Steven]

On Oct 1, 8:44 am, Stratum > wrote:
> wrote:
> > I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> > I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>
> Lurking on-air personalities who want to know what the
> intelligentsia are saying about them. We are the
> intelligentsia. We're from outer space and France.

We are from France but we left and the details must remain MURKY.

[g]

In article . com>, wrote:
>I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
>I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.

On these newsgroups, I get the impression the young people do not use,
or do not like to use USENET. Perhaps they are somewhere else.
It was not like this10 to 15 years ago. And, there is a lot
of frustrated old people around here.

Well, I'm 58.

greg

[RHF]

On Oct 1, 3:24 am, wrote:
> Telamon wrote:
> > SFTV_troy > wrote:
> > > Phil Kane wrote:
>
> > > > Perhaps after he has 40-50 years of experience --
>
> > > Doubtful. Engineering is boring; you sit in a damn cube all day long,
> > > staring at a computer. I've been saving every penny, such that I will
> > > be able to retire at 40-45. Or semi-retire (only take jobs I like).
>
> > > Engineering is dull.
>
> > Well you took a wrong turn didn't you but it's never to late to get into
> > marketing where you can lie your ass off. It's very exciting, just ask
> > Eduardo.
>
> I've worked in sales, but I tried to avoid lying. For example when I
> was in college I worked for Sears. They instructed me to "sell
> extended warranties" I complied, but I also told the customers that I
> thought it was un-necessary.
>
> Sears didn't like me very much
> - what with telling the truth.
>
> > I'd expect an electrical engineer to be more knowledgeable than
> > your posts indicate.
>
> If you think one person can possibly know EVERYTHING there is to know
> about the subject of electronics/electrical devices. For example:
>
> - Do you know what VHDL is?
> - How about a state machine?
> - Synchronous DDR?
> - PCI Express?
> - Flip-flop?
> - What does GCLK mean in the context of FPGAs?
> - What are constraints?
>
> This is just a small sample of what I know, because this is what I
> work upon every day..... but I suspect a lot of it you have no clue
> what it's about. And that's fine. Because I don't expect one person
> to know everything there is to know about EE.

SFTV,

None of which is required for the RRS Newsgroup.

Just turn on an AM/MW Radio or a Shortwave Radio
and Listen to it.

Buy a AM & FM Shortwave Radio - Listen To It !

Buy / Build a Shortwave Antenna and/or AM/MW Loop Antenna
and Use It !

Become and "Avid" AM/MW and Shortwave Radio Listener (SWL) !

-Or- Become an Amateur {Ham} Radio Operator.

The name of the Newsgroup is : Rec.Radio.Shortwave
It's about the Hobby of Shortwave Radio Listening (SWL)
and Broadcast Radio Listening (BCL) both of which are
Free and Over-the-Air.

-IF- You are 'interested' in Internet Radio WiFi Radio etc
There is the : Alt.Internet.Radio Newsgroup.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.internet.radio/

Also there are Newsgroups Focused on IBOC "HD" AM/FM Radio
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/6bb362877f49b42a

hope this helps ~ RHF

[g]

In article >, (G) wrote:
>In article . com>,
> wrote:
>>I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>>
>>I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>
>On these newsgroups, I get the impression the young people do not use,
>or do not like to use USENET. Perhaps they are somewhere else.
>It was not like this10 to 15 years ago. And, there is a lot
>of frustrated old people around here.
>

I know, the young are busy talking on the cell phone or are on the Ipod, are
saying blogging, and awesome.

Well we used to say Groovy, and Far Out, and used pay phones.

greg

[John Slade]

"SFTV_troy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> John Slade wrote:
>>
>> And I agree, that's why I have a nonsense answer. Age has nothing to
>> do
>> with it. I've met young folk who act really mature and older people who
>> act
>> like little kids.
>
>
>
> I'm seeing a lot of those "older people acting like kids" right here
> on this group (insulting one another).
>

You know what? I made that same observation years ago...

John

[David Kaye]

On Oct 1, 8:47 am, (G) wrote:

> On these newsgroups, I get the impression the young people do not use,
> or do not like to use USENET. Perhaps they are somewhere else.
> It was not like this10 to 15 years ago. And, there is a lot
> of frustrated old people around here.

10 to 15 years ago there weren't Web-based forums. In fact, 15 years
ago there wasn't a Web as we know it. Google Groups may have been the
salvation of Usenet.

Actually, someone operating a for-profit news server could build some
market share by touting the uncensored nature of Usenet. They could
sell access and news clients for those people who don't have them.

[arthur[_5_]]

There are free NNTP servers as well as fee based NNTP servers

this is yet one more more no nothing post for a no nothing jerk

what the F'K does this have to do with *.audio.* ???

get lost lamer

arthur



On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:17:01 -0700, David Kaye
> wrote:
>
>Actually, someone operating a for-profit news server could build some
>market share by touting the uncensored nature of Usenet. They could
>sell access and news clients for those people who don't have them.
>

[Phil Kane]

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:24:02 -0700, wrote:

>- Do you know what VHDL is?
>- How about a state machine?
>- Synchronous DDR?
>- PCI Express?
>- Flip-flop?
>- What does GCLK mean in the context of FPGAs?
>- What are constraints?

That's not electrical engineering, that's computer science.

>This is just a small sample of what I know, because this is what I
>work upon every day..... but I suspect a lot of it you have no clue
>what it's about. And that's fine. Because I don't expect one person
>to know everything there is to know about EE.

Not to denigrate Penn State, but graduates of the major EE (as
differentiated from CS) schools are expected to be fluent in most if
not all areas of ELECTRICAL engineering. Look at the exam syllabus
for registration of a PE and see how much you are fluent with.

I'm registered as a PE (Electrical) in four states and eligible for
registration in all the others as well as in foreign countries. I am
also licensed to practice law in all California and Federal courts and
before the Federal Communications Commission.

Are you?

I never did answer the title question - I'm 71 and the VP - General
Counsel and Engineering Manager of a major communications consulting
engineering firm in California. We design microwave and public safety
communication systems and submit necessary documentation to get them
licensed. We neither sell nor install equipment, but we do provide
our clients with project management services and with expert testimony
in disputes.
--
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[David Kaye]

On Oct 1, 4:03 pm, Phil Kane > wrote:

> I never did answer the title question - I'm 71 and the VP - General
> Counsel and Engineering Manager of a major communications consulting
> engineering firm in California.

And you also managed to scarf up just about every top-notch
disillusioned engineer in the Bay Area to help!

[Phil Kane]

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:24:02 -0700, wrote:

>I've worked in sales, but I tried to avoid lying. For example when I
>was in college I worked for Sears. They instructed me to "sell
>extended warranties" I complied, but I also told the customers that I
>thought it was un-necessary.

Recently I had an expensive Nikon camera damaged by being knocked off
a table to a concrete floor. Had I not had an extended warranty
policy (read: insurance) the repairs would have cost me almost half of
what the camera cost, because they had to send to Japan for major
repair parts to rebuild it. As it was, what I paid for the policy was
far less than the repair would have cost.

Similarly, I had a hard disk die a few days after the extended
warranty period expired, and CompUSA was good enough to "stretch" the
expiration date and give me a new one at no cost. The cost of the
extended warranty was about 25% of the cost of a new one. That's the
major reason why I buy my components at CompUSA if they carry them.

I believe in extended warranties.
--
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[Phil Kane]

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:07:09 -0700, David Kaye
> wrote:

>On Oct 1, 4:03 pm, Phil Kane > wrote:
>
>> I never did answer the title question - I'm 71 and the VP - General
>> Counsel and Engineering Manager of a major communications consulting
>> engineering firm in California.
>
>And you also managed to scarf up just about every top-notch
>disillusioned engineer in the Bay Area to help!

Are you looking for a job, David? <ggg>

PS - we don't do Broadcast work. We send that to one of our joint
venture partners in the Pacific Northwest. They send their land
mobile and microwave work to us.
--
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[Telamon]

In article om>,
wrote:

> Telamon wrote:
> > SFTV_troy > wrote:
> > > Phil Kane wrote:
> >
> > > > Perhaps after he has 40-50 years of experience --
> > >
> > > Doubtful. Engineering is boring; you sit in a damn cube all day long,
> > > staring at a computer. I've been saving every penny, such that I will
> > > be able to retire at 40-45. Or semi-retire (only take jobs I like).
> > >
> > > Engineering is dull.
> >
> > Well you took a wrong turn didn't you but it's never to late to get into
> > marketing where you can lie your ass off. It's very exciting, just ask
> > Eduardo.
>
>
> I've worked in sales, but I tried to avoid lying.

That's an impossibility.

> For example when I was in college I worked for Sears. They
> instructed me to "sell extended warranties" I complied, but I also
> told the customers that I thought it was un-necessary.
>
> Sears didn't like me very much
> - what with telling the truth.

That would be an expected result.

> > I'd expect an electrical engineer to be more knowledgeable than
> > your posts indicate.
>
> If you think one person can possibly know EVERYTHING there is to know
> about the subject of electronics/electrical devices. For example:

< snip >

Not really. Just what you promote.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

[Brenda Ann]

"David Kaye" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Oct 1, 8:47 am, (G) wrote:
>
>> On these newsgroups, I get the impression the young people do not use,
>> or do not like to use USENET. Perhaps they are somewhere else.
>> It was not like this10 to 15 years ago. And, there is a lot
>> of frustrated old people around here.
>
> 10 to 15 years ago there weren't Web-based forums. In fact, 15 years
> ago there wasn't a Web as we know it. Google Groups may have been the
> salvation of Usenet.
>

Sure there were. I was using web based forums at least as far back as 1983,
with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud acoustic modem (even the crude graphics
of the era took forever to load. The bad old days of CompuSlave et al when
net time was charged by the minute (about two dollars IIRC). Even then, the
forums were very popular, taking over the job that was mostly done by BBS's.

[David Kaye]

On Oct 1, 4:50 pm, Phil Kane > wrote:

> Are you looking for a job, David?

Well, it would feel like going home. I've always admired Tim Pozar's
work. David Doon busted the pirate station I was involved with, and
you've been a presence for quite a number of years here.

> PS - we don't do Broadcast work. We send that to one of our joint
> venture partners in the Pacific Northwest. They send their land
> mobile and microwave work to us.

Yeah, I notice that you do a lot of local government work. Well heck,
there's a lot to be said for local govt. For one, compared with
broadcasters their checks are less likely to bounce....

[SFTV_troy]

Brenda Ann wrote:
> "David Kaye" > wrote in message
> >
> > 10 to 15 years ago there weren't Web-based forums.....
>
> Sure there were. I was using web based forums at least as far back as 1983,
> with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud acoustic modem



Sorry hun, but that's NOT the world wide web (which is based-upon
multiple servers & using Hypertext Markup Language & active point-n-
click links). What we used on the old commodore 64 was a SINGLE
server called a BBS, and it didn't use hypertext, or a mouse.. It was
just plain-jane text. (Yes even on the C64, it was text.... but it
was drawn to look like pictures.)

That's what Usenet is - all text
It's like visiting an old BBS.

The world wide web was not invented until circa 1993, and did not
"boom" until around 1995 (with Windows and Mac-based Mosaic &
Netscape). And thus was born web-based forums which slowly but surely
drew people away from the "boring" Usenet.


> (even the crude graphics of the era took forever to load)

Yeah. There's a huge difference between 56k and 0.3k. It used to
take me an hour to download a 170 kilobyte floppy. Now I do it in
about 5 seconds.

[SFTV_troy]

On Oct 1, 11:18 am, (G) wrote:
>
> >On these newsgroups, I get the impression the young people do not use,
> >or do not like to use USENET. Perhaps they are somewhere else.
> >It was not like this10 to 15 years ago. And, there is a lot
> >of frustrated old people around here.


I suspect if you took this poll in a "hip" group like rec.arts.tv or
alt.tv.smallville, you'd find a lot of young people. It would still
skew older, but there'd also be lots of teens and 20-somethings in the
mix.

[SFTV_troy]

Phil Kane wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:24:02 -0700, wrote:
>
> >- Do you know what VHDL is?
> >- How about a state machine?
> >- Synchronous DDR?
> >- PCI Express?
> >- Flip-flop?
> >- What does GCLK mean in the context of FPGAs?
> >- What are constraints?
>
> That's not electrical engineering, that's computer science.


And thus you make yourself sound like an idiot. Hardware design is
*not* computer science (aka programming). ------ Besides my title is
"Electrical Engineer". Always has been, no matter where I worked.

> >This is just a small sample of what I know, because this is what I
> >work upon every day..... but I suspect a lot of it you have no clue
> >what it's about. And that's fine. Because I don't expect one person
> >to know everything there is to know about EE.
>
> Not to denigrate Penn State, but graduates of the major EE (as
> differentiated from CS) schools are expected to be fluent in most if
> not all areas of ELECTRICAL engineering. ...

That sounds like a denigration of Penn State. They did teach me all
the basics, but not the advanced stuff (like synchronous AM reception
- whatever that is). To expect me to know that is unrealistic. And
not fair to the profs at Penn State. Every engineer has his or her
own specialty.



> I'm registered as a PE (Electrical) in four states... I am also
> licensed to practice law in all California and Federal courts

Wow. I'm impressed.

I passed the E.I.T. exam back in 1998, but never bothered to register
P.E. because I don't see any value in it. I'm still getting paid $55
an hour, and having a P.E. after my name is not going to drive that
Rate any higher.

Same with a Masters Degree. If I thought there was value in having
those, then I would go ahead and acquire them, but so far they've been
not necessary.

So how do you like law?

I was thinking about going back to earn a law degree (since I'm bored
with engineering).

[David Kaye]

On Oct 2, 12:10 am, "Brenda Ann" > wrote:

> Sure there were. I was using web based forums at least as far back as 1983,
> with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud acoustic modem [....]

No, you're wrong. There was no Web in 1983. Usenet existed in 1983,
but the Web was not invented until 1990, and it was not practical
until Mosaic in 1992. I called attention specifically to the Web
because the growth of Web-based forums is the reason Usenet has fallen
into disuse.

[SFTV_troy]

Phil Kane wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:24:02 -0700, wrote:
>
> >I've worked in sales, but I tried to avoid lying. For example when I
> >was in college I worked for Sears. They instructed me to "sell
> >extended warranties" I complied, but I also told the customers that I
> >thought it was un-necessary.
>
> Recently I had an expensive Nikon camera damaged by being knocked off
> a table to a concrete floor. Had I not had an extended warranty
> policy (read: insurance) the repairs would have cost me almost half of
> what the camera cost, because they had to send to Japan for major
> repair parts to rebuild it. ..........


Well there are exceptions to every rule, and your hyper-expensive
camera is that exception.

But in the case of a GE Refrigerator or a Sony stereo, an extended
warranty would be a waste. These items are so cheap & readily
available that, should they fail, you can easily take the ~$100 from
the "extended warranty" (which I the salesman told you not to buy),
and use it as downpayment to buy a new fridge or stereo.

The thing is: Most appliances DON'T fail. They follow a mortality
curve:

- HIGH - birth mortality (as a result of manufacturing flaws) -
covered for FREE by the manufacturer
- LOW - middle-of-life - virtually no failures.
- HIGH - geriatric mortality - around 15-20 years - the parts are old
& die - which is NOT covered by extended warranties, because these are
only 5-7 years in length.



The reason why Sears pushes salespeople to sell "extended warranties"
is because that's where the money's at. 99% of customers have no
problem whatsoever (or if they do, it's covered by the manufacturer's
FREE warranty, not sears), and thus Sears gets to pocket the money as
almost-100% profit. ----- Want to get rich? Sell insurance on
brand-new products, and make sure it expires at around 5 years, that
way you won't have to pay out, other than a few dollars here & there.



I bought an extended warranty for my Dodge Avenger. You know how many
times I used it?
- zero
- and when the Avenger eventually started failing (10 years), the
warranty was expired.
- and thus I wasted $700 for nothing.

I'll never do that again.



> Similarly, I had a hard disk die a few days after the extended
> warranty period expired, and CompUSA was good enough to "stretch" the
> expiration date and give me a new one at no cost.

Yeah. But. You probably could have bought a brand-new hard drive,
same size, for the same amount of $$$ or just slightly more expensive,
as the extended warranty cost.

I just bought a 300 gig drive for only $70. They are dirt cheap
Cheaper than buying the crummy service plan.



> I believe in extended warranties.

I don't. Everything I buy seems to last forever. If I bought
"extended warranties" I would just be wasting my money (see the
Avenger example), since I would never use them.

[SFTV_troy]

Telamon wrote:
> wrote:
>
> >
> > I've worked in sales, but I tried to avoid lying.
>
> That's an impossibility.

James Cash Penney would disagree with you. (He was an extremely
religious and honest man - he even refused to accept credit cards, on
the grounds that he thought it wrong to drive people into debt. He
would rather lose a sale than do that.)




> > For example when I was in college I worked for Sears. They
> > instructed me to "sell extended warranties" I complied, but I also
> > told the customers that I thought it was un-necessary.
> >
> > Sears didn't like me very much
> > - what with telling the truth.
>
> That would be an expected result.

Uh huh. Good thing I became an engineer - I wouldn't be able to work
for long lying to Sears' customers.


>
> > > I'd expect an electrical engineer to be more knowledgeable than
> > > your posts indicate.
> >
> > If you think one person can possibly know EVERYTHING there
> > is to know about the subject of electronics/electrical devices.
>
> Not really. Just what you promote.


Just because we don't share the same opinion, does not mean one of us
is idiotic. That premise is false Telemon. It could be that we are
both 100% correct (with respect to targeting different interest
groups). You are correct that AM is better for long-distance
listening for old people.

And I am correct that young people want many, many more stations on
the dial (they like variety).

We are both correct.










..

[Brenda Ann]

"David Kaye" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 2, 12:10 am, "Brenda Ann" > wrote:
>
>> Sure there were. I was using web based forums at least as far back as
>> 1983,
>> with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud acoustic modem [....]
>
> No, you're wrong. There was no Web in 1983. Usenet existed in 1983,
> but the Web was not invented until 1990, and it was not practical
> until Mosaic in 1992. I called attention specifically to the Web
> because the growth of Web-based forums is the reason Usenet has fallen
> into disuse.

Not this time cowboy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

"
The first TCP/IP-wide area network was made operational by January 1, 1983
when all hosts on the ARPANET were switched over from the older NCP
protocols to TCP/IP. In 1985, the United States' National Science Foundation
(NSF) commissioned the construction of a university 56 kilobit/second
network backbone using computers called "fuzzballs" by their inventor, David
Mills. The following year, NSF sponsored the development of a higher speed
1.5 megabit/second backbone that become the NSFNet. A key decision to use
the DARPA TCP/IP protocols was made by Dennis Jennings, then in charge of
the Supercomputer program at NSF."

[SFTV_troy]

Brenda Ann wrote:
> "David Kaye" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > On Oct 2, 12:10 am, "Brenda Ann" > wrote:
> >
> >> Sure there were. I was using web based forums at least as far back as
> >> 1983,
> >> with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud acoustic modem [....]
> >
> > No, you're wrong. There was no Web in 1983. Usenet existed in 1983,
> > but the Web was not invented until 1990, and it was not practical
> > until Mosaic in 1992. I called attention specifically to the Web
> > because the growth of Web-based forums is the reason Usenet has fallen
> > into disuse.
>
> Not this time cowboy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet
> "first TCP/IP-wide area network was made operational by January 1983"


Bzzz.

We're not discussing the internet (which has been around a long, long
time). We're discussing the World Wide Web, which sits inside
browsers called Mosaic, Netscape, Explorer, Firefox, Safari, et
al..... and uses hyperlinks to jump from one server to another server.

THAT was not invented until circa 1992, and did not "boom" until
around 1995 when Mosaic/Netscape hit Windows and Macintosh machines,
and lots of users started experimenting with it for the first time.

The WWW did not exist in the 1980s.
We've told you this several times.
Please try to listen.



If you still are not convinced, try to imagine stepping into a time
machine, and carrying your modern-day PC back to 1990, and signing-up
with an Internet Provider. Would your web browser work?

No.

It absolutely would not work, because web-servers did not exist back
then. The WWW had not been invented yet.

[Eric F. Richards]

SFTV_troy > wrote:

>
> Phil Kane wrote:
> > That's not electrical engineering, that's computer science.
>
>
> And thus you make yourself sound like an idiot.

(rolls eyes)

Oh, THIS should be good...

[Eric F. Richards]

"Brenda Ann" > wrote:

>
> Not this time cowboy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet
>
> "
> The first TCP/IP-wide area network was made operational by January 1, 1983
> when all hosts on the ARPANET were switched over from the older NCP
> protocols to TCP/IP. In 1985, the United States' National Science Foundation
> (NSF) commissioned the construction of a university 56 kilobit/second
> network backbone using computers called "fuzzballs" by their inventor, David
> Mills. The following year, NSF sponsored the development of a higher speed
> 1.5 megabit/second backbone that become the NSFNet. A key decision to use
> the DARPA TCP/IP protocols was made by Dennis Jennings, then in charge of
> the Supercomputer program at NSF."
>

That's TCP/IP. Hate to side with these guys, but they're right this
time. The World Wide Web and HTTP were invented in 1990 by Tim
Berners-Lee.

--
Eric F. Richards,
"It's the Din of iBiquity." -- Frank Dresser

[Arny Krueger]

"Brenda Ann" > wrote in message

> "David Kaye" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> On Oct 1, 8:47 am, (G) wrote:
>>
>>> On these newsgroups, I get the impression the young
>>> people do not use, or do not like to use USENET.
>>> Perhaps they are somewhere else. It was not like this10 to 15 years ago.
>>> And, there is a
>>> lot of frustrated old people around here.
>>
>> 10 to 15 years ago there weren't Web-based forums. In
>> fact, 15 years ago there wasn't a Web as we know it. Google Groups may
>> have been the salvation of Usenet.

> Sure there were. I was using web based forums at least
> as far back as 1983, with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud
> acoustic modem (even the crude graphics of the era took
> forever to load.

Usenet?

There were other networks of BBSs in those days.

There was no pracical, widely usable web in the 1980s.

This is typical of histories of the web:

http://www.w3.org/History.html

From it, the web seems to date back to the early 1990s, maybe 1992 or 1993.

>The bad old days of CompuSlave et al
> when net time was charged by the minute (about two
> dollars IIRC).

Been there, done that.

> Even then, the forums were very popular,
> taking over the job that was mostly done by BBS's.

The trouble with local BBSs was the lack of traffic.

There were national and regional BBSs like ExecPC that addressed that
problem.

[Arny Krueger]

"David Kaye" > wrote in message
oups.com
> On Oct 2, 12:10 am, "Brenda Ann" >
> wrote:
>
>> Sure there were. I was using web based forums at least
>> as far back as 1983, with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud
>> acoustic modem [....]
>
> No, you're wrong. There was no Web in 1983. Usenet
> existed in 1983, but the Web was not invented until 1990,
> and it was not practical until Mosaic in 1992. I called
> attention specifically to the Web because the growth of
> Web-based forums is the reason Usenet has fallen into
> disuse.

Agreed.

[Arny Krueger]

"Eric F. Richards" > wrote in message

> "Brenda Ann" > wrote:
>
>>
>> Not this time cowboy.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet
>>
>> "
>> The first TCP/IP-wide area network was made operational
>> by January 1, 1983 when all hosts on the ARPANET were
>> switched over from the older NCP protocols to TCP/IP. In
>> 1985, the United States' National Science Foundation
>> (NSF) commissioned the construction of a university 56
>> kilobit/second network backbone using computers called
>> "fuzzballs" by their inventor, David Mills. The
>> following year, NSF sponsored the development of a
>> higher speed
>> 1.5 megabit/second backbone that become the NSFNet. A
>> key decision to use the DARPA TCP/IP protocols was made
>> by Dennis Jennings, then in charge of the Supercomputer
>> program at NSF."
>>
>
> That's TCP/IP. Hate to side with these guys, but they're
> right this time. The World Wide Web and HTTP were
> invented in 1990 by Tim Berners-Lee.

Agreed.

[Roadie]

On Oct 2, 10:07 am, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> "David Kaye" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com
>
> > On Oct 2, 12:10 am, "Brenda Ann" >
> > wrote:
>
> >> Sure there were. I was using web based forums at least
> >> as far back as 1983, with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud
> >> acoustic modem [....]
>
> > No, you're wrong. There was no Web in 1983. Usenet
> > existed in 1983, but the Web was not invented until 1990,
> > and it was not practical until Mosaic in 1992. I called
> > attention specifically to the Web because the growth of
> > Web-based forums is the reason Usenet has fallen into
> > disuse.
>
> Agreed.

Wait a minute...Arpanet was around and operational long before 1990.

[[email protected]]

Roadie wrote:
> On Oct 2, 10:07 am, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> > "David Kaye" > wrote in message
> >
> > oups.com
> >
> > > On Oct 2, 12:10 am, "Brenda Ann" >
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >> Sure there were. I was using web based forums at least
> > >> as far back as 1983, with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud
> > >> acoustic modem [....]
> >
> > > No, you're wrong. There was no Web in 1983. Usenet
> > > existed in 1983, but the Web was not invented until 1990,
> > > and it was not practical until Mosaic in 1992. I called
> > > attention specifically to the Web because the growth of
> > > Web-based forums is the reason Usenet has fallen into
> > > disuse.
> >
> > Agreed.
>
> Wait a minute...Arpanet was around and operational long before 1990.



We're not discussing ARPAnet. We're discussing the WWW.

What you are doing is equivalent to saying "Ipods existed in the 80s!"
just because some MP2s existed back then.

[David Kaye]

On Oct 2, 4:16 am, "Brenda Ann" > wrote:

>
> Not this time cowboy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

The Internet is not the Web. I haven't said word one about the
Internet. Go back and look. I am talking *solely* about the Web.
The Web didn't exist until 1992.

This is an important difference because Usenet predates the Web, which
was my whole point all along. Actually, Usenet slightly predates the
Internet as we know it.

[Roadie]

On Sep 30, 2:42 pm, wrote:
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.

> 0 and < 100 I'm a Personal Consumer Consumption Facilitator

[Roadie]

On Sep 30, 2:42 pm, wrote:
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.


Old enough. I'm a Personal Consumer Consumption Facilitator

[SFTV_troy]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Brenda Ann" > wrote in message
>
> > Even then, the forums were very popular,
> > taking over the job that was mostly done by BBS's.
>
> The trouble with local BBSs was the lack of traffic.
> There were national and regional BBSs like ExecPC
> that addressed that problem.


Also national nets like Usenet and Fidonet. Usenet is still alive-and-
well thanks to News servers being integrated into the WWW browsers,
but Fidonet is essentially dead since BBSes don't really exist
anymore. (There's still a few, but none local to my area, and I'm not
going to call long-distance.)

Those networks were cool. You would go visit, for example
rec.arts.startrek, read & reply to messages, and then log off. During
the night the messages would travel across the phonelines. And the
next morning you would have a fresh batch of messages.

Things moved a lot slower back then. Typically if you asked a
question today (Oct 2), you had to wait until Oct 3 to receive the
replies to it.

BTW:



Here's the oldest message I could find. I got a modem in late 1987,
and was posting to Usenet throughout 1988, 89, and so on, but
apparently those messages never got archived. Oh well. This message
was posted just prior to my high school graduation..... sooooo long
ago. ;-)

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.startrek/browse_frm/thread/1163f568ceec580b/

From:
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek
Subject: Trek symbols
Date: 27 May 91 15:07:23 GMT
Organization: Rabbit Hutch BBS, East Earl, Pa., (717)354-5027
Lines: 16


>The change from the "one ship one symbol" to everyone wearing the
>"Enterprise Arrowhead" is supposed to serve two functions. The first, (not
>totally cannon) is that it is to celebrate that the Enterprise was the only
>ship to make it back to earth after its five year mission, in completely
>good shape, where as other ships barely made it back, or not at all.

Exactly what do you mean by "one ship one symbol"? Did each ship
have
its on triangle? I thought the Arrowhead was the symbol of the
Federation
and was universal among all Starfleet starships? Why was Enterprise
crew
the only to wear the arrowhead?
--
....rutgers!devon!rhutch!troy (Troy Heagy)
Rabbit Hutch BBS -- +1 717 354 5027

[Phil Kane]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:14:52 -0700, SFTV_troy >
wrote:

>I suspect if you took this poll in a "hip" group like rec.arts.tv or
>alt.tv.smallville, you'd find a lot of young people. It would still
>skew older, but there'd also be lots of teens and 20-somethings in the
>mix.

We were all teens and 20-somethings once.
--
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[Phil Kane]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:27:55 -0700, SFTV_troy >
wrote:

>I was thinking about going back to earn a law degree (since I'm bored
>with engineering).

If you think engineering is boring, law will be even more boring. What
you see on TV as "law" bears little relationship to real life.
--
Philip M. Kane P E / Esq.
VP - Regulatory Counsel & Engineering Manager
CSI Telecommunication Consulting Engineers
San Francisco, CA - Beaverton, OR

[Phil Kane]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:54:51 -0700, SFTV_troy >
wrote:

>James Cash Penney would disagree with you. (He was an extremely
>religious and honest man - he even refused to accept credit cards, on
>the grounds that he thought it wrong to drive people into debt. He
>would rather lose a sale than do that.)

He would be spinning in his grave. Of course we use our JCPenney card
as a convenience card, paying it off each month without interest
accruing.
--
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[Randy Yates]

SFTV_troy > writes:
> [...] Usenet is still alive-and- well thanks to News servers being
> integrated into the WWW browsers,

News servers are not integrated into WWW browsers, but news clients
are.
--
% Randy Yates % "Remember the good old 1980's, when
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % things were so uncomplicated?"
%%% 919-577-9882 % 'Ticket To The Moon'
%%%% > % *Time*, Electric Light Orchestra
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Telamon]

In article om>,
SFTV_troy > wrote:

> Telamon wrote:
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I've worked in sales, but I tried to avoid lying.
> >
> > That's an impossibility.
>
> James Cash Penney would disagree with you. (He was an extremely
> religious and honest man - he even refused to accept credit cards, on
> the grounds that he thought it wrong to drive people into debt. He
> would rather lose a sale than do that.)

Fine. Then it would be an impossibility for you.

> > > For example when I was in college I worked for Sears. They
> > > instructed me to "sell extended warranties" I complied, but I
> > > also told the customers that I thought it was un-necessary.
> > >
> > > Sears didn't like me very much - what with telling the truth.
> >
> > That would be an expected result.
>
> Uh huh. Good thing I became an engineer - I wouldn't be able to work
> for long lying to Sears' customers.

I don't think you are an engineer.

> > > > I'd expect an electrical engineer to be more knowledgeable than
> > > > your posts indicate.
> > >
> > > If you think one person can possibly know EVERYTHING there is to
> > > know about the subject of electronics/electrical devices.
> >
> > Not really. Just what you promote.
>
>
> Just because we don't share the same opinion, does not mean one of us
> is idiotic.

It does not exclude it either.

> That premise is false Telemon. It could be that we are both 100%
> correct (with respect to targeting different interest groups). You
> are correct that AM is better for long-distance listening for old
> people.

So you believe in age based reality? That does not sound like an
engineer to me.

> And I am correct that young people want many, many more stations on
> the dial (they like variety).

That's not what you wrote. You wrote about more possible channels.

> We are both correct.

Nope.

I find nothing endearing in a sock puppet.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

[MOSFET]

I'm 39 and nearly 40 (in November). Aghhhhhh!!!!!!

MOSFET

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>
>

[[email protected]]

SFTV_troy > wrote:
>Phil Kane wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:24:02 -0700, wrote:
>>
>> >- Do you know what VHDL is?
>> >- How about a state machine?
>> >- Synchronous DDR?
>> >- PCI Express?
>> >- Flip-flop?
>> >- What does GCLK mean in the context of FPGAs?
>> >- What are constraints?
>>
>> That's not electrical engineering, that's computer science.
>
>
>And thus you make yourself sound like an idiot. Hardware design is
>*not* computer science (aka programming). ------ Besides my title is
>"Electrical Engineer". Always has been, no matter where I worked.
>
>> >This is just a small sample of what I know, because this is what I
>> >work upon every day..... but I suspect a lot of it you have no clue
>> >what it's about. And that's fine. Because I don't expect one person
>> >to know everything there is to know about EE.
>>
>> Not to denigrate Penn State, but graduates of the major EE (as
>> differentiated from CS) schools are expected to be fluent in most if
>> not all areas of ELECTRICAL engineering. ...

Phil,

Please define what you mean by fluent. I'm not trolling; I would like
a serious answer. This has actually been a topic of discussion in some
other forums. I don't have an EE degree (I have bachelor's and
master's in CS), but my bachelor's degree required some EE classes. I
had plenty of EE major friends, many of whom went on to EE-related
careers.

>That sounds like a denigration of Penn State. They did teach me all
>the basics, but not the advanced stuff (like synchronous AM reception
>- whatever that is). To expect me to know that is unrealistic. And
>not fair to the profs at Penn State. Every engineer has his or her
>own specialty.

I am inclined to agree with this.

--gregbo
gds at best dot com

[PhattyMo]

wrote:
> I'm 35. Engineer. And you?
>
> I'm curious about the demographic that occupies these groups.
>


Old enough to know better,But too young to care! -27.

[RHF]

On Oct 2, 1:27 am, SFTV_troy > wrote:
> Phil Kane wrote:
> > On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:24:02 -0700, wrote:
>
> > >- Do you know what VHDL is?
> > >- How about a state machine?
> > >- Synchronous DDR?
> > >- PCI Express?
> > >- Flip-flop?
> > >- What does GCLK mean in the context of FPGAs?
> > >- What are constraints?
>
> > That's not electrical engineering, that's computer science.
>
> And thus you make yourself sound like an idiot. Hardware design is
> *not* computer science (aka programming). ------ Besides my title is
> "Electrical Engineer". Always has been, no matter where I worked.
>
> > >This is just a small sample of what I know, because this is what I
> > >work upon every day..... but I suspect a lot of it you have no clue
> > >what it's about. And that's fine. Because I don't expect one person
> > >to know everything there is to know about EE.
>
> > Not to denigrate Penn State, but graduates of the major EE (as
> > differentiated from CS) schools are expected to be fluent in most if
> > not all areas of ELECTRICAL engineering. ...
>
> That sounds like a denigration of Penn State.
> They did teach me all the basics,

- but not the advanced stuff (like synchronous AM reception
- - whatever that is).

AM Synchronous Detector
- These Links may Help to Open-Up Your Mind's Eye.
http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/receivers/synchdet/sync_det.php
http://www.sherweng.com/indepth.html
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/portable/0800sync.html
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/0175sync.html
http://www.usna.edu/EE/ee302/Handouts/EE302Spring2007CH03.pdf

If All Else Fails . . . Read a Book !

- To expect me to know that is unrealistic.

SFTV - You chose to 'cross-post' to a Shortwave Radio Listener's
Newgroup (rec.radio.shortwave) most of the SWLs here have
some idea or concept of what an "AM-Sync" does and to some
degree how they function and perform within their Radios.

Clearly you have more than the Education and the Ability
to Inform Yourself and Communicate with the Members
of this Newsgroup in a Meaninful Way. - Please Do So.

i didn't know - i don't know - is not a valid answer
for a person of your education and ability ~ RHF

[Steven]

I'm "this" many fingers!

Can you count? Excellent!

[SFTV_troy]

Brenda's disappeared. She's not about to admit she was wrong (a sign
of maturity is someone being able to say, "Ooops my mistake.").



Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Eric F. Richards" >
> > "Brenda Ann"
> >> "
> >> The first TCP/IP-wide area network was made operational
> >> by January 1, 1983 when all hosts on the ARPANET were
> >> switched over from the older NCP protocols to TCP/IP
> >
> > That's TCP/IP. Hate to side with these guys, but they're
> > right this time. The World Wide Web and HTTP were
> > invented in 1990 by Tim Berners-Lee.
>
> Agreed.

[SFTV_troy]

Randy Yates wrote:
> SFTV_troy > writes:
>
> > [...] Usenet is still alive-and- well thanks to News
> > servers being integrated into the WWW browsers,
>
> News servers are not integrated into WWW browsers,
> but news clients are.



Ooops. Thanks for the correction; that was pretty stupid of
me. ;-) (A news client could also be called news reader, or news-
reading software.)

[RHF]

On Oct 3, 3:02 am, SFTV_troy > wrote:
- Brenda's disappeared.
- She's not about to admit she was wrong (a sign of maturity
- is someone being able to say, "Ooops my mistake.").

SFTV -aka- "Hybrid Digital" Man,

And this post has the 'sound' of "Maturity ? - NOT ! ~ RHF

BAD comes and goes as her schedule permits.

Until then consider actually Listening to a Shortwave Radio :
So that you can Hear What We Hear and Communicate
About All These Great Changes Toward A Digital World :
Based On Your Own Personal Experience Listening To
Over-the-Air Radio Broadcasts.

Remember one of the Newsgroups that you chose to Cross-Post
the original Message to was Rec.Radio.Shortwave which happens
to be a Newsgroup populated by many Avid Shortwave Radio
Listeners (SWLs) and AM & FM Radio Broadcast Listeners (BCLs).

[[email protected]]

On Oct 3, 5:46 am, RHF > wrote:
> On Oct 3, 3:02 am, SFTV_troy > wrote:
>
>
>
> - Brenda's disappeared.
> - She's not about to admit she was wrong (a sign of maturity
> - is someone being able to say, "Ooops my mistake.").
>
> BAD comes and goes as her schedule permits.



She just posted 30 minutes ago. The fact is, she doesn't want to
admit that she was wrong when she kept insisting (again and again)
that the Web existed in the 1980s.

Even AFTER we explained to her she was mistaken, she still refused to
listen. I hate stubborn people who refuse to listen, even when others
are trying to be helpful.

[[email protected]]

Phil Kane wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:14:52 -0700, SFTV_troy >
> wrote:
>
> >I suspect if you took this poll in a "hip" group like rec.arts.tv or
> >alt.tv.smallville, you'd find a lot of young people. It would still
> >skew older, but there'd also be lots of teens and 20-somethings in the
> >mix.
>
> We were all teens and 20-somethings once.



But then you grew old & close-minded.

[[email protected]]

37 candles on my birthday cake :)


---
Michael Lalonde
OMB Business Development Officer
1170 Ramsey View Court
Sudbury, ON P3E 2E4