10 or 12 inch sub for SQ?

[Bob]

I think I'm finally down to the last little bits of the setup for my
99 BMW 3 series convertible. The last pieces are the head unit (I'm
thinking Alpine CDA-9835) and the sub.

Unfortunately, there's no way that I can put the sub in a box at the
back of the trunk, Eddie Runner's advice not withstanding
(http://installer.com/tech/aiming.html). The only choices are a pair
of ten inch subs tucked in the space below where the convertible top
hides when it's down or a single 12 inch sub in the spare tire
compartment.

I'm thinking about going with JL audio for the sub(s) and the amp will
be a Brax X2000 that I can bridge into 4 ohms to 750 watts or 2 ohms
to 1115 watts. Another of the same amp will power CDT643 speakers in
pods in the kick panel and door.

This is purely a SQ install and I've heard it suggested that 10 inch
subs will have better sound that 12 inchers. I don't know if I buy it
and thought I'd ask here.

Thanks in advance!

Bob

[n8 skow]

Define "better"...

n8



> This is purely a SQ install and I've heard it suggested that 10 inch
> subs will have better sound that 12 inchers. I don't know if I buy it
> and thought I'd ask here.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Bob

[n8 skow]

You could also save a good chunk of cash going with the 9833 over the
9835... I believe you'd only be missing out on the bio-LED display...

n8



> I think I'm finally down to the last little bits of the setup for my
> 99 BMW 3 series convertible. The last pieces are the head unit (I'm
> thinking Alpine CDA-9835) and the sub.
>
> Unfortunately, there's no way that I can put the sub in a box at the
> back of the trunk, Eddie Runner's advice not withstanding
> (http://installer.com/tech/aiming.html). The only choices are a pair
> of ten inch subs tucked in the space below where the convertible top
> hides when it's down or a single 12 inch sub in the spare tire
> compartment.
>
> I'm thinking about going with JL audio for the sub(s) and the amp will
> be a Brax X2000 that I can bridge into 4 ohms to 750 watts or 2 ohms
> to 1115 watts. Another of the same amp will power CDT643 speakers in
> pods in the kick panel and door.
>
> This is purely a SQ install and I've heard it suggested that 10 inch
> subs will have better sound that 12 inchers. I don't know if I buy it
> and thought I'd ask here.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Bob

[Bob]

>
> > This is purely a SQ install and I've heard it suggested that 10 inch
> > subs will have better sound that 12 inchers. I don't know if I buy it
> > and thought I'd ask here.
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
> > Bob

"n8 skow" > wrote in message news:<U%MOc.1225$aR2.846@okepread04>...
> Define "better"...
>
> n8
>
>

The definition that I assumed was meant would be "more accurate sound reproduction."

[Bob]

>
> > I think I'm finally down to the last little bits of the setup for my
> > 99 BMW 3 series convertible. The last pieces are the head unit (I'm
> > thinking Alpine CDA-9835) and the sub.
> >
"n8 skow" > wrote in message news:<t3NOc.1227$aR2.174@okepread04>...
> You could also save a good chunk of cash going with the 9833 over the
> 9835... I believe you'd only be missing out on the bio-LED display...
>
> n8
>
>

You're correct on what I'd be missing out on, however the display is
specifically what I want as well. In the grand scheme, the price
difference between the 9833 and 9835 isn't important to me.

Thanks,

Bob

[n8 skow]

Money to spend eh?
Can't argue with that...
=)

n8


> You're correct on what I'd be missing out on, however the display is
> specifically what I want as well. In the grand scheme, the price
> difference between the 9833 and 9835 isn't important to me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob

[n8 skow]

I've heard many great 10's...
I've heard many great 12's...
I've heard many great 18's...

But outside of SPL - it's very tough to discern between them (within their
linear range and with suitable enclosures...)
I think what it's going to come down to is how much do you want to spend,
how loud do you want it to go, and how big/where do you want the woofer
enclosure? Maybe name a few brands your local dealer carries?

n8


> The definition that I assumed was meant would be "more accurate sound
reproduction."

[Chris Liberti]

A 10" will not sound any better than a 12" if installed properly. It is not
the size of the sub that determines how "quick it will be" it is a
compination of the inductance of the sub and the Qts of the box. A 12" will
extend lower and be louder than the 10" version of the same sub so in that
regard you could say a 12" will sound better.


"Bob" > wrote in message
om...
> I think I'm finally down to the last little bits of the setup for my
> 99 BMW 3 series convertible. The last pieces are the head unit (I'm
> thinking Alpine CDA-9835) and the sub.
>
> Unfortunately, there's no way that I can put the sub in a box at the
> back of the trunk, Eddie Runner's advice not withstanding
> (http://installer.com/tech/aiming.html). The only choices are a pair
> of ten inch subs tucked in the space below where the convertible top
> hides when it's down or a single 12 inch sub in the spare tire
> compartment.
>
> I'm thinking about going with JL audio for the sub(s) and the amp will
> be a Brax X2000 that I can bridge into 4 ohms to 750 watts or 2 ohms
> to 1115 watts. Another of the same amp will power CDT643 speakers in
> pods in the kick panel and door.
>
> This is purely a SQ install and I've heard it suggested that 10 inch
> subs will have better sound that 12 inchers. I don't know if I buy it
> and thought I'd ask here.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Bob

[Bob]

"n8 skow" > wrote in message news:<IEXOc.1440$aR2.625@okepread04>...
> I've heard many great 10's...
> I've heard many great 12's...
> I've heard many great 18's...
>
> But outside of SPL - it's very tough to discern between them (within their
> linear range and with suitable enclosures...)
> I think what it's going to come down to is how much do you want to spend,
> how loud do you want it to go, and how big/where do you want the woofer
> enclosure? Maybe name a few brands your local dealer carries?
>
> n8
>

n8,

I'm leaning towards JL Audio, although I'm open to other comparable or
better quality brands. The issues I have are extremely limited trunk
space and that the car is a convertible with all the related issues.

I live in the Los Angeles area, so there's very few brands that
wouldn't be available within a reasonable drive time.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,

Bob

[Daniel Snooks]

Image Dynamics IDQ series are very popular for solid performance in
space-limited applications, you may want to look into them also

"Bob" > wrote in message
om...
> n8,
>
> I'm leaning towards JL Audio, although I'm open to other comparable or
> better quality brands. The issues I have are extremely limited trunk
> space and that the car is a convertible with all the related issues.
>
> I live in the Los Angeles area, so there's very few brands that
> wouldn't be available within a reasonable drive time.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Bob

[Steve Grauman]

> I live in the Los Angeles area, so there's very few brands that
>> wouldn't be available within a reasonable drive time.

Where in Los Angeles? I can reccomend several shops.

>Any suggestions?

Image Dynamics makes an incredibally solid product, especially considering the
price. They're subs are generally praised for smoothness and accuracy, and any
JL sub would be hard pressed to match it for pure SQ. I also *really* like Oz
Audio's Matrix series subs. They're very clean and very accurate, and not
horridly expensive. Other than that, Pioneer's PRS series sub is worth a close
look, and I've always liked PG's Titanium series stuff too.

[Mister_B]

Bob , if you would let us know how much space you have to install your
sub into , that would be very helpful .. While JL might seem a good
brand , there are many better choices .
Honestly , I think one 12" Brahma powered your Helix would be LOVELY
.. small enclosure as well .. Problem is Brahmas are dual 2 ohm config
.. Not ideal for your x2000 ..
Therefore I would have to recommend you either an Re sub , or an Image
Dynamics IDmax 12" IDMAX 12 D4 v3 .. Run your amp bridged at 2 ohms for
1115 watts and it will be very nice ... RMS is rated at 1000 so you are
perfect with the 1115
All you need per 12 is a .969 box lined with 2-3" of Polyfill for a
perfect .707 QTC alignment !! 1.229 Cubic feet without poly-fil ..
these are EXACT mesurements for it also ..
SoundDomain.com is authorized internet ID retailer ..

10" will not sound better than 12" in general 99% of the time there
will be no difference except the 12" will go a little lower ..
I would go with the IDmax because they are readily available .. !!


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[Bob]

(Steve Grauman) wrote in message >...
> > I live in the Los Angeles area, so there's very few brands that
> >> wouldn't be available within a reasonable drive time.
>
> Where in Los Angeles? I can recommend several shops.

I'm in Ontario as a base, but travel to Los Angeles (downtown),
Newport Beach, and Anaheim pretty regularly.
>
> >Any suggestions?
>
> Image Dynamics makes an incredibly solid product, especially considering the
> price. They're subs are generally praised for smoothness and accuracy, and any
> JL sub would be hard pressed to match it for pure SQ. I also *really* like Oz
> Audio's Matrix series subs. They're very clean and very accurate, and not
> horridly expensive. Other than that, Pioneer's PRS series sub is worth a close
> look, and I've always liked PG's Titanium series stuff too.

I looked at the Image Dynamics and loved the box size they recommend,
but I'm concerned about how they'd handle the amp I'm using (a bridged
Brax X2000--continuous rated at 750 watts into 4 ohms or 1,115 into 2
ohms). Ditto for the Oz Audio. Your thoughts?

The PG Titanium (which seems to have been replaced by the Titanium
Elite) looks pretty interesting, although I'd arguably be
underpowering it with the Brax. Again, your thoughts?

Thanks for your time and effort!

Bob

[Mister_B]

The IDmax would handle the 1115 watts just fine . Do you really think
you will be playing your music at max often if at all ?? Keep the bass
on your head unit to zero ; and any bass boost off and you will be fine
and you wont add distortion by boosting bass levels .. ID max all the
way !!
if you are really worried that extra 100 watts will hurt IF you were
to turn it up to max , just set your gains with a multimeter and or
oscilloscope for 1000 watts even instead of 1115 watts ..


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[Steve Grauman]

>I'm in Ontario as a base, but travel to Los Angeles (downtown),
>Newport Beach, and Anaheim pretty regularly.

There's SpeakerWorks in Long Beach, and Paris Audio (my reccomendation) in Los
Angeles.

>I looked at the Image Dynamics and loved the box size they recommend,
>but I'm concerned about how they'd handle the amp I'm using (a bridged
>Brax X2000--continuous rated at 750 watts into 4 ohms or 1,115 into 2
>ohms). Ditto for the Oz Audio. Your thoughts?

Subs should be given slightly more than the rated RMS capability to help them
perform, but that's way more power than those speakers are rated for, and
probably not OK.

>The PG Titanium (which seems to have been replaced by the Titanium
>Elite)

The Titanium Elite is the one I meant to reccomend, great sub.

>although I'd arguably be
>underpowering it with the Brax. Again, your thoughts?

You're in a hard mid-power bracket with that amp. Underpowering is a no-no for
maximum performance. Take a look at Alpine's new Type-X subs and Pioneer's PRS
unit.

[Les]

"Mister_B" <Mister_B.1amd60@no-

IF you were
> to turn it up to max , just set your gains with a multimeter and or
> oscilloscope for 1000 watts even instead of 1115 watts ..


And how do you propose you do that? The gain control does not control the
wattage.

Les

[Bob]

Mister_B > wrote in message >...
> Bob , if you would let us know how much space you have to install your
> sub into , that would be very helpful .. While JL might seem a good
> brand , there are many better choices .

That's why I'm here. :) I'm convinced that I could listen to subs at
every store within 100 miles and it just wouldn't matter in the end.
What the sub sounds like in a listening room as compared to my car
with the top down when I'm doing 110 en route to Palm Springs. Or
whatever.

Anyway, I really don't have much space. The space where the
convertible top hides leaves me about 10 inches of vertical clearance.
If I'm putting a 12" in there, it'd have to be angled funny or
something. Though at least if I did that I could point it right
through where the center armrest pass through is and seal off that
entire area. Might eliminate some of the issues with sound reflecting
off of the back of the trunk. Dunno.

The alternative is to remove the spare tire (not the end of the world,
really, as the tire sizes are different front & rear and AAA will tow
me up to 100 miles. That would give me plenty of room for a 10" or
13", but my golf clubs are always in the car and they'd rest right
over the spare tire enclosure.

> Honestly , I think one 12" Brahma powered your Helix would be LOVELY
> .. small enclosure as well .. Problem is Brahmas are dual 2 ohm config
> .. Not ideal for your x2000 ..

Probably not. I don't know if the Brax is one ohm stable (probably
not since they don't mention it in the specs) and it doesn't have
enough power at 4 ohms. The Adire Audio web site says that the
1600/4800 watt rating is thermal only. Still, sounds absurdly
underpowered to me.

Maybe I try to persuade the wife that a Helix monoblock makes sense
and the second Brax is a "spare." LOL

> Therefore I would have to recommend you either an Re sub , or an Image
> Dynamics IDmax 12" IDMAX 12 D4 v3 .. Run your amp bridged at 2 ohms for
> 1115 watts and it will be very nice ... RMS is rated at 1000 so you are
> perfect with the 1115
> All you need per 12 is a .969 box lined with 2-3" of Polyfill for a
> perfect .707 QTC alignment !! 1.229 Cubic feet without poly-fil ..
> these are EXACT mesurements for it also ..
> SoundDomain.com is authorized internet ID retailer ..

Is there a relationship here I should be aware of? :)

>
> 10" will not sound better than 12" in general 99% of the time there
> will be no difference except the 12" will go a little lower ..
> I would go with the IDmax because they are readily available .. !!

I think I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and put all the subs
together side-by-side so that I can make some sort of arguably
rational decision. :)

Thanks a ton for your time and input. I sincerely appreciate it!

Bob

[Mister_B]

Les , actually if wanting an amplifier to produce somewhat LESS power as
opposed to using gains as volumes to crank the volume and introduce
distortion , they do in fact control the amps' final output ...
If using a true rms multimeter and a test tone at whatever frequency
the sub is 2 ohms flat at ( usually around 180hz in a sealed box ) then
1115 watts would be 47.222v @ 2ohms and 1000 watts would be 44.72v @
2ohms ..
In the case of turning DOWN the power output somewhat , yes they are
volume controls ..


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[Mister_B]

> What good does 180Hz do for the sub in your car? I am not sure of anyone
> who
> ever runs their crossover that high.
Because when you set gains you set them with crossovers OFF and eq flat
.. Subs do not measure at their real impedance except at certain
frequencies .. 180 is the MOST common .. If you set them at 50 hz -
you are setting your gains at almost triple the impedance - GUARANTEED
.. you will be clipping your amp always ..
> Until the amp recieves more input, which results in more output, which
> results in more output, which
> results in more wattage.
>
WRONG ! If you set your amp with 0 db test tones , and you know your HU
isnt clipping at whatnot volume while you are setting gains ( 3/4th
volume as a blind reference ) it will NEVER have more input and wont
output more than you set it to
I know this is a news group , but I do not know how to format it .. My
apologies


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[Mister_B]

That link about how to set gains is the way a teenager would do it ..
Everything I said is right and right on point .. If you cant see why to
set gains with crossovers off and a freqency higher than the sub would
normally play just SIMPLY by reading my post with full explanation for
the original poster , then you really have no business giving anymore
advice . Because it's obvious you dont learn easily .. If you didnt
know this stuff before hand of me posting it , then you really should
read more .
setting gains by ear is not useful for fine tuning a system . How many
people do you know that can hear distortion to a sub ? Even trained
ears really cant .. Highs are easy to detect clipping for a trained ear
, but still ..
If you dont know for sure your amp is underrated and puts out more
power than stated in spec , set it with the multimter and 0db tones and
you will have an amp that never overheats and speakers that never die
because of clipped signals .. Then again , you wouldnt know that amps
overheat and speakers die because ofclippsed signals would ya' ?? sad
...


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[Les]

"Mister_B" > wrote in message
...
>
> Les , actually if wanting an amplifier to produce somewhat LESS power as
> opposed to using gains as volumes to crank the volume and introduce
> distortion , they do in fact control the amps' final output ...

The gains control the input stage. Which in turn affects the outputs. But
the gains do not control the amp's final output directly. It is an important
difference to note.

> If using a true rms multimeter and a test tone at whatever frequency
> the sub is 2 ohms flat at ( usually around 180hz in a sealed box )

What good does 180Hz do for the sub in your car? I am not sure of anyone who
ever runs their crossover that high.

then
> 1115 watts would be 47.222v @ 2ohms and 1000 watts would be 44.72v @
> 2ohms ..

Until the amp recieves more input, which results in more output, which
results in more wattage.

> In the case of turning DOWN the power output somewhat , yes they are
> volume controls ..

Yes they are volume controls. But no matter where you set your gains the amp
is still capable of putting out full power. All that it requires is more
input. You cannot control and limit an amp to stop putting out power at X
watts, they just don't work that way.

Eddie still has the best and easiest way to set gains, and it doesn't
require fancy meters or scopes, and would likely sound better than one set
the "fancy" way. It also addresses the problems of turning it up to max and
setting the gains so it cannot put out more power.

http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

BTW: You do realize that you are accessing a newsgroup via a web forum?
Which your host Lee cannot seem to set up correctly so it really helps if
you quote the text you are replying too. That way everyone can follow the
conversation and who/what is being replied too.

Les

[Les]

"Mister_B" > wrote in message
...
>
> > What good does 180Hz do for the sub in your car? I am not sure of anyone
> > who
> > ever runs their crossover that high.


> Because when you set gains you set them with >crossovers OFF and eq flat

You set them with the crossovers off? What good does that do? Why don't you
set your gains with how you are actually going to be listening to speakers.
It's asinine to do otherwise. That's like setting the gains without the
speakers being mounted in the door. Where in the blue hell did you get this
twisted way to set gains?

> . Subs do not measure at their real impedance except at certain
> frequencies .. 180 is the MOST common

WTF does this have to do with setting gains?

... If you set them at 50 hz -
> you are setting your gains at almost triple the impedance - GUARANTEED
> . you will be clipping your amp always ..

That's why you don't use tones. Just play some familar music. Why do you
make this so complicated, it's easy.

> > Until the amp recieves more input, which results in more output, which
> > results in more output, which
> > results in more wattage.
> >
> WRONG ! If you set your amp with 0 db test tones

What the hell are 0 dB test tones? And why do you even need test tones at
all!?! They are pointless. You are overcomplicating things.

, and you know your HU
> isnt clipping at whatnot volume while you are setting gains ( 3/4th
> volume as a blind reference ) it will NEVER have more input and wont
> output more than you set it to

It won't have more input until you turn the HU up past 3/4 in your example.
Then it WILL have more input and the output will increase. Sure you could
turn the HU all the way up and set your gains where they can only go to a
certain point, but you wouldn't like it! Recordings are all different levels
and doing it the way you say you would have to turn the HU all the up to get
it loud. Then what do you do if you want it louder? I don't know of any HUs
out there that have Spinal Tap volume controls (turns up to 11).

Gain controls DO NOT limit power. No matter where you set your gains the amp
is still capable of putting out it's rated power.

Did you even read the link? To me it is the most consise and accurate way of
doing it. And it's easy.

http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

> I know this is a news group , but I do not know how to format it .. My
> apologies

You did fine this time, thanks. It makes it much easier for everyone to
follow the conversation.

Les

[Les]

"Mister_B" > wrote in message
...
>
> That link about how to set gains is the way a teenager would do it ..

Or someone who's forgotten more about car audio than you will ever learn. It
is the most EFFECTIVE way of setting gains in a car, plain and simple. I
have set gains using o-scopes and meters and smaart and even SIM. I have set
gains all of the different ways you can and still setting it by ear was the
quickest most effective way to do it. And it sounded great.

What did you find wrong with that link?

> Everything I said is right and right on point ..

Bull****. I have shown that everything you have said is unnecessary and
overly complicated. You just THINK that you know. Explain why you should do
it with meters and crossovers off and 0 db tones. I don't think you even
know.

If you cant see why to
> set gains with crossovers off

Tell me why? Why in the blue hell would you want to set you gains with the
crossover off? Are you listening to the system with the crossover off? No.
You listen to it with it ON, so you should tune the system with it ON. I
recently helped out on a 2 million dollar install where we used SIM 3 to
tune the rig. Did we do it with the crossovers off? No, because that would
be asinine.

and a freqency higher than the sub would
> normally play

Why? There is NO need to. You don't listen to it at that frequency. Why
don't you set your gains for your front stage without their crossovers and
while they are still on the shelf!

just SIMPLY by reading my post with full explanation for
> the original poster ,

Which post would that be? There is no detailed explanation of any of it or
the reasoning behind it.

then you really have no business giving anymore
> advice . Because it's obvious you dont learn easily

Not from an ignorant dumbass such as yourself. I can actually think for
myself, and don't just do what the "experts" do. In the pro business your
gain structure is absolutely critical to acheiving a good sound system, so I
have done hours of research and experiments with gains. I really don't care
what you think I have been giving advice and will continue to do so long
after you have crawled away. People like you come and go all the time here.
They spout off some BS and expect everybody to believe it. Yet when someone
questions it they have NO response, they only skirt the issue. You are
likely no different, but we shall find out.

.. If you didnt
> know this stuff before hand of me posting it , then you really should
> read more .

Didn't know what? That you are a complete idiot? I figured that one out the
first post you ever made. I just want you to tell me the reasoning for your
flawed logic. Or do you even know why you do it?

> setting gains by ear is not useful for fine tuning a system .

Why not? It is the EARS that listen to the system isn't it?

How many
> people do you know that can hear distortion to a sub ? Even trained
> ears really cant .. Highs are easy to detect clipping for a trained ear
> , but still ..
> If you dont know for sure your amp is underrated and puts out more
> power than stated in spec , set it with the multimter and 0db tones and
> you will have an amp that never overheats and speakers that never die
> because of clipped signals

And you will likely have a system that noone wants to listen too. If you set
your amps to never clip then you would have to turn the volume up all the
way just to begin getting it loud. What do you do then when you get a peice
of music recorded lower than what you set the system with? You want to turn
it up but you can't! Or what about when your going down the highway with the
windows down! Ooops sorry I can't turn it up anymore because I set my system
with 0 db tones and a true RMS multimeter. (BTW where are you getting 0dB
from? Is that dBU or dBV? A or C weighted? Or do you even know what those
are?)

Your method is flawed. I am not sure if you have ever set gains in a
vehicle. If you had set them the way you describe I don't see how you could
be happy, you would have no headroom, and little dynamic range. Just to
begin getting it louder you would have the volume all the way up.

>.. Then again , you wouldnt know that amps
> overheat and speakers die because ofclippsed signals would ya' ?? sad


Sad? Mr. B, why don't you show me that speakers die of clipped signals.
Prove it to me. If they do it then you should be able to provide the science
behind it.

You can read my recent responses over this very topic. Feel free to look it
over and see what you disagree with. Then provide some evidence, or atleast
logical thougt, as to why you disagree. Until then........

Les

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=10h6d4s6k0dml08%4
0corp.supernews.com&rnum=3&prev=/groups%3Fsafe%3Dimages%26ie%3DUTF-8%26as_ug
roup%3Drec.audio.car%26as_usubject%3D500w%26lr%3D% 26hl%3Den

[Mister_B]

sad .. very .. Les grow up .


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[Mister_B]

There is no answer to his opinion , neither was it a game . I know the
most precise way is the way(s) I stated ; while setting gains by ear
solves nothing because the human ear can not hear 3% distortion or less
.. Les is not knowledgable enough to argue the facts out . If he
believes in his way , fine .. Dont try and argue with me though when I
am stating the truly proper manner in which to do it to assure the amp
is putting out safe voltages , to it's true rating and not clipping ..


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1

[Les]

"Mister_B" > wrote in message
...
>
> sad .. very .. Les grow up .
>
>
> --
> Mister_B


No, what is sad is that you have no clue what you are talking about yet try
to come off as an expert, it may work on CAF but not here. You got called on
not knowing what the **** you are talking about. You cannot answer simple
questions on why you even do things the way you do it, because I don't think
that you know! So, answer the simple questions or at least show something,
just anything, to prove your point or don't post. This grow up bull**** is
just that.

Les

[Andy Weaks]

Mister_B wrote:
> sad .. very .. Les grow up .
>
>

Nice answer, I would guess he asked you to answer about 10 questions and
explain that many crazy theories, and this is all you can come up with.
I would say, Game Set and Match, LES.

[Daniel Snooks]

I believe you are very much missing the point here ... namely :
What good is it setting up the system so that it sounds good
THEORETICALLY? Yes, it's true that using the method you describe is the best
way to keep from exceeding the input threshold of the amp(s), but it is a
****-poor way in practice simply because there is such a vast range of
recording levels that will be played back. Using the method you describe
will result in less then optimal output when playing back anything recorded
below 0dB (which is pretty much everything)
Setting up the gains to make it impossible to clip is just not good practice
(unless you have huge overhead and running the amps at 50% input gets you to
120+dB output)
just my 0.02

"Mister_B" > wrote in message
...
>
> There is no answer to his opinion , neither was it a game . I know the
> most precise way is the way(s) I stated ; while setting gains by ear
> solves nothing because the human ear can not hear 3% distortion or less
> . Les is not knowledgable enough to argue the facts out . If he
> believes in his way , fine .. Dont try and argue with me though when I
> am stating the truly proper manner in which to do it to assure the amp
> is putting out safe voltages , to it's true rating and not clipping ..
>
>
> --
> Mister_B

[Les]

"Mister_B" <Mister_B.1avm1b@no-

> There is no answer to his opinion , neither was it a game . I know the
> most precise way is the way(s) I stated ; while setting gains by ear
> solves nothing because the human ear can not hear 3% distortion or less

Setting gains by ear is the most precise way to get things to sound the way
you want it! And if it sounds good to the user then it's a perfectly
acceptable way of doing it. If there is some distortion and yet noone can
tell then is it that big of a deal?

> . Les is not knowledgable enough to argue the facts out .

I'm not? Then why have I been able to come up with reasons your way is
FAULTY and yet you cannot/haven't defended them. Nor have you been able to
say why you don't agree with the information on the link I posted, only that
it's not right, but tell us why. You have only stated the same BS over and
over yet have provided not one bit of reasoning behind any of it. You just
say that it is right and everyone is supposed to believe you without
question. Well, I'm questioning it. If your such an expert on this then
defend your position, tell us why you would need to tune the system with
scopes and meters and crossovers off.

If he
> believes in his way , fine .. Dont try and argue with me though when I
> am stating the truly proper manner in which to do it to assure the amp
> is putting out safe voltages , to it's true rating and not clipping ..

You're stating the truly proper manner in which to make sure your system has
no headroom or dynamic range.
The only way to set the system where it cannot clip is to turn the HU volume
to max then set your gains. But by the time you do that you have no more
volume. You have to turn it all the way to max to start getting it loud.
Then Mr. Dumbass what do you do when you get something recorded lower than
your reference? You can't turn it up anymore and you need it louder. Sure
you amps may never clip but then you've dumped all that money into a stereo
for nothing.

And then with the crossovers off and 180Hz for the sub crap, it's just
ridiculous. Tell us all why you would tune a system with the crossovers off?
You don't listen to the system with the crossover off! You don't listen to
your sub at 180Hz. Do you let your mids go without their crossovers too?
Play them at 50Hz then set your gains with them there. Then lets fry a
couple of tweeters while were at it by feeding them full range with some of
those 0db tones. I think that you define asinine Mr B.

Let us also not forget the amount of power using a meter/scope that you
could potentially send to the drivers. Your way may work with a amp that
cannot deliver more power than the driver can handle, but with a larger
amp.... With my ear I can hear when a driver is getting distorted/breaking
up and it's time to turn it down. But with you and your meter you would just
keep right on turning it up to set it at the max before distortion. Which
could result in too much power!

You know, the more I think about it the more idiotic your way becomes. Maybe
one day you will see it too. Until then enjoy getting only a fraction of
your system's capabilities.

A person with a meter and a tin ear is dangerous!

Les

[Mister_B]

You could also wire the OZ audio at 4 ohms each and then in series and
run your amplifier in 2 ohm mono . Sub channels should be ran in mono
and not stereo . OZ audio subs are excellent subs . The IDMAX may be
advertised like that because it has good power handling capabilities ,
it is definately an sql sub though ..


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[Bob]

Mister_B > wrote in message >...
> The IDmax would handle the 1115 watts just fine . Do you really think
> you will be playing your music at max often if at all ?? Keep the bass
> on your head unit to zero ; and any bass boost off and you will be fine
> and you wont add distortion by boosting bass levels .. ID max all the
> way !!
> if you are really worried that extra 100 watts will hurt IF you were
> to turn it up to max , just set your gains with a multimeter and or
> oscilloscope for 1000 watts even instead of 1115 watts ..

Honestly I looked at the IDMAX and was turned off of it by their
advertising copy. I don't know that they intend it as a pure SPL sub,
but the text ("...will produce truly explosive and violent levels of
clean undistorted sub-bass") certainly implies that.

I'm not looking for "explosive and violent" bass. LOL I just want
excellent, true sound reproduction. I'm almost convinced I'm asking
for too much with the amp I have.

I could run the Brax into two channels for two 10" subs. Any reason I
couldn't get two Oz Audio 2 ohm DVC 10", wire them to 1 ohm each and
then hook up the Brax (which is rated at 550 watts into 2 channels at
1 ohm)?

I'm sure it can't be *that* easy, of course. LOL

Bob

[Mister_B]

Just read up on the IDmax Bob . Take your time , browse the internet and
www.caraudioforum.com .. Punch IDmax into the search box . Any local
sound offs / SQ contests near you at all soon ? Have a listen ..


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[Bob]

Mister_B > wrote in message >...
> You could also wire the OZ audio at 4 ohms each and then in series and
> run your amplifier in 2 ohm mono . Sub channels should be ran in mono
> and not stereo . OZ audio subs are excellent subs .

Don't I then run back into the issue of way overpowering the subs?
The Brax is rated at 1,115 watts at 2 ohms mono and the subs are rated
at 500/1000 watts (RMS/Peak). Or should I be adding together the
power requirements of the two subs, thus the demad is 1000 watts RMS
and I'm supplying 1115 watts RMS?


> The IDMAX may be
> advertised like that because it has good power handling capabilities ,
> it is definately an sql sub though ..

Strange that they would pick those words for an SQ sub. Assuming that
it has the SQ I'm looking for (ad copy not withstanding...lol), it'd
be a good fit for the power supplied by the amp.

Thanks!

Bob

[Mister_B]

I already answered them all .. Both you guys can lick my left sack and
make the right one jealous .. How is he going to set gains down to put
out less power by ear nimrods .. I think both of you two need to come
on in to the forum and tell us we dont know wtf we are talking about ..
Evryone in the forum who is truly knowledgable about it would say the
same as I said ..


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[Les]

"Mister_B" > wrote in message
...
>
> I already answered them all

You didn't answer ****. You just spouted on and on but you never, not once,
gave any reasons for why. Oh, like why do you set gains without crossovers
and at frequencies the speakers don't play during actual listening? Why
can't you answer those? This is your preffered way of doing it so you should
be able to provide the reasons why.

.. Both you guys can lick my left sack and
> make the right one jealous ..

Hmmm, I did suspect it. I think I finally figured out what the B stands for.
Mister Blowjob.

>How is he going to set gains down to put
> out less power by ear nimrods

Why the **** does he need too? That's asinine. Do you not understand that by
setting the gains in the manner you describe then you will no longer have
headroom or dynamic range? What are you going to do when you get materials
recorded at less than the level you set it with? Nothing, because you have
limited the **** out of the system and you have no more headroom, you can't
turn it up. Basically you have taken what could be a decent system and
ruined it.

... I think both of you two need to come
> on in to the forum and tell us we dont know wtf we are talking about ..

Well, I am not sure about everyone over at CAF but you don't know what the
**** you are talking about. You are a ****ing moron, plain and simple. Back
up the reasons why you set the gains with crossovers off! You can't, because
you don't know why.

> Evryone in the forum who is truly knowledgable about it would say the
> same as I said ..

Then they are ****ing morons just like you. Maybe they could actually answer
some of the questions though. You don't seem to be able to answer simple
ones. Tell me what is wrong with setting the gains in the link I provided?
(Which was written by Eddie) I have personally set gains by ears in
hundreds, yes hundreds, of cars and have always had satisfied and happy
customers and friends, I gaurantee that if I were to set the gains the way
you describe I would get nothing but complaints.

Les
BTW here is that link again. This has got to be the easiest and most
effective way to set gains I have seen. it really is simple. I still don't
understand what you don't like about it.

http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html

[Bob]

Mister_B > wrote in message >...
> Just read up on the IDmax Bob . Take your time , browse the internet and
> www.caraudioforum.com .. Punch IDmax into the search box . Any local
> sound offs / SQ contests near you at all soon ? Have a listen ..

Ah. Perfect. Found a review at Mobile Entertainment. Here's a link
for anyone who might be researching this in the future:

http://www.m-emag.com/article.asp?section_id=13&article_id=302&page_number=1

Thanks to all for their help and for the debate about setting gains.
;-)

Bob

[Mister_B]

GAY ARSE LES( GIRLS' NAME BTW ) WROTE :
> >
> > I already answered them all
>
> You didn't answer ****. You just spouted on and on but you never, not
> once,
> gave any reasons for why. Oh, like why do you set gains without
> crossovers
> and at frequencies the speakers don't play during actual listening?
> Why
> can't you answer those? This is your preffered way of doing it so you
> should
> be able to provide the reasons why.
>
> .. Both you guys can lick my left sack and
> > make the right one jealous ..
>
> Hmmm, I did suspect it. I think I finally figured out what the B stands
> for.
> Mister Blowjob.
>
> >How is he going to set gains down to put
> > out less power by ear nimrods
>
> Why the **** does he need too? That's asinine. Do you not understand
> that by
> setting the gains in the manner you describe then you will no longer
> have
> headroom or dynamic range? What are you going to do when you get
> materials
> recorded at less than the level you set it with? Nothing, because you
> have
> limited the **** out of the system and you have no more headroom, you
> can't
> turn it up. Basically you have taken what could be a decent system and
> ruined it.
>
> ... I think both of you two need to come
> > on in to the forum and tell us we dont know wtf we are talking about
> ..
>
> Well, I am not sure about everyone over at CAF but you don't know what
> the
> **** you are talking about. You are a ****ing moron, plain and simple.
> Back
> up the reasons why you set the gains with crossovers off! You can't,
> because
> you don't know why.
>
> > Evryone in the forum who is truly knowledgable about it would say
> the
> > same as I said ..
>
> Then they are ****ing morons just like you. Maybe they could actually
> answer
> some of the questions though. You don't seem to be able to answer
> simple
> ones. Tell me what is wrong with setting the gains in the link I
> provided?
> (Which was written by Eddie) I have personally set gains by ears in
> hundreds, yes hundreds, of cars and have always had satisfied and
> happy
> customers and friends, I gaurantee that if I were to set the gains the
> way
> you describe I would get nothing but complaints.
>
> Les
> BTW here is that link again. This has got to be the easiest and most
> effective way to set gains I have seen. it really is simple. I still
> don't
> understand what you don't like about it.
>
> http://www.installer.com/tech/gains.html
If your retarded self would've read my posts you would've seen that I
did answer them all .. Slow *** dork you are you just wanna say
something , and really dont have nothing to say here or anywhere else
on this board ..
1.) You set gains at frequencies the speaker wont play because that is
the true amp load with the given subwoofer and the load it provides.
You set gains with crossovers off because it is a well known fact that
crossovers change the way the input signal is .. If you are setting
gains 101% properly with a multimeter and want your extra headroom that
can end up being distortion anyways ; simply use
-3db test tones instead of 0db test tones .. If you set an amp to the
proper voltage at 50hz , you are making in push the power it would push
into 2 ohms , when in reality at 50 hz the sub is playing at like 7
ohms .. Try argueing with me on this point and you'' look dumber than
you do arguing with me at all about any of this .
2.) Yeah your mom does give good ones , she is REALLY in touch with her
feminine side - thats why she names you Leslie you panty wearing
dimwit
3.) It doesnt matter what YOU did because no one gives a fu*k how you
set gains . If you were really a smart guy like you seem to want to
promote , instead of saying like an respectful real person would "
Mister_B has an interesting way of setting gains" Which in all honesty
isnt my way of setting anything - it's the professional ; scientific
way of doing it . Sure you can set gains by ear - but who cares ? If
you are needing your amp to put out what it is rated to ( and some amp
are underrated ) you need a scope and a multimeter . If you want your
amp to be set up PERFECTLY to put out what it says it will on paper in
the specs , you use a true rms multimeter .. If you now that setting an
amp without any clipping at all provides a clean signal 100% of the
time , then you do .. If you know setting an amp up with -3db tones
provides a constant voltage at -3db less than the tones because tones
are "louder" than music therefore more accurate for music and will
provide a clean signal 99% of the time for musical recordings and allow
some extra clipping for quiter tracks , then you do .. If you wanted to
learn , then oh my .. you just did even though you couldve carefully
read what I wrote earlier when I gave the same reasons for these
methods . If you wanna keep on arguing with me like what I write doesnt
feel good to you , then say ouch and stfu .. You are not proving you
know more than me , because you dont , never have , never will .. Every
thread I see you in you have some type of attitude , but you are not
helping Bob to understand how to set up his amps to put out less power
IF he's worried about slightly overpowering them . Just because you set
up amps the simpleton way , doesnt mean your way is the only way ..
It's not that I dont like the way you believe to do it .. I dont like
you or your attitude about me knowing a more accurate way ..
Anything else Leslie ???


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[Mister_B]

Besides test tones though , because i know you are going to come in with
another no meaning comment , you can also use Micheal Ruff - Eyes of
Love (L, C, R - Constant Voltage) track off of the Autosound2k cd ..
I'm sure those guys have no clue what the h3ll they are doing either
huh .. Why else would there even be such thing as a constant voltage
song if not to test output voltage to set up gains correctly for proper
power output ??


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[Mister_B]

Bob Wrote : Ah. Perfect. Found a review at Mobile Entertainment. Here's
a link
for anyone who might be researching this in the future:

http://www.m-emag.com/article.asp?s...2&page_number=1

Thanks to all for their help and for the debate about setting gains.
;-)

Bob

>> Great job finding the review Bob ! Anyways , besides Les coming in
and thread crapping if you set gains his way with an amp that is
overpowering the sub there is a greater chance of thermal death to the
sub . Use -3db test tones and the tutorial found here
http://jlaudio.com/tutorials/index.html
The second tutorial down - JL Audio knows better than Les , and so do
I which is why I bothered to further how to do it
You calculate what the reading on the multimeter should be as this
(rms power)-multiplied by-impedance .. squareroot of that total = volts

So 1000 watts driven into a 2 ohm load = 2000 = 44.72v
Set your sub up with crossovers off , 180hz tone and set your highs up
with x-overs off 1000hz tone ..
Told ya the sub was VERY nice SQ wise !!


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[Les]

"Mister_B" > wrote in message
...
>
> GAY ARSE LES( GIRLS' NAME BTW ) WROTE :

Awwww. Did I make you angry? And what is the deal with you always making
homosexual references? Just let your repressed homo side out Mister Blowjob,
you'll likely be alot less angry.
BTW: I have no problem with my name, I find it better than hiding behind the
cloak of anonymonity like yourself.

> > >
> > > I already answered them all
> >
>> >
> > .. Both you guys can lick my left sack and
> > > make the right one jealous ..

More homosexual references. Why do you want a bunch of guys to lick your
nuts? Really, just admit that your gay and get on with your life. I mean
asking 2 other guys to perform sexual acts upon you is really just
disgusting.


> If your retarded self would've read my posts you would've seen that I
> did answer them all .. Slow *** dork you are you just wanna say
> something , and really dont have nothing to say here or anywhere else
> on this board ..

THIS IS NOT YOUR BOARD ****STICK!!! This is Rec.Audio.Car; it is a part of
the Usenet. But you are too ****ing stupid to figure out how in the hell to
configure a newsreader so you use a ****ed up web forum that the dumbass
webmaster cannot configure correctly to interface with the outside world.


> 1.) You set gains at frequencies the speaker wont play because that is
> the true amp load with the given subwoofer and the load it provides.

What a ****ing dumbass reason. Seriously. At ANY given frequency the amp is
going to see a different impedance, and the amp is seeing hundreds of
frequencies at once, not just the one magic one that you like to use. You
don't listen to one specific freq. It might make more sense if you used
something like pink noise, with the crossover engaged, to do this method.
But just one "magic" frequency makes absolutely no sense.

So basically what you want to do is set the gains using a freq that you will
NEVER listen too while actually playing it all to achieve a theoretical
maximum power. So you have set your gains then engaged your crossover and
then what happens? Wait, don't tell me..... It's not loud enough and the
balance is wrong.

> You set gains with crossovers off because it is a well known fact that
> crossovers change the way the input signal is

No ****. That is precisely why you would set the gains with the crossovers
on and at least roughly placed at operational settings. If not, you cannot
accurately gains because the speaker is going to behave different when you
engage the crossovers. Let me try to explain this with a couple of real
world examples. Which is where I live, not in your fancy theoretical land.
You are attempting to set the gains on your components, although they seem
to break up earlier than you would like due to too much bass because the
crossover is off. If you set your gains in this manner you have effectively
decreased the usability and SQ of your front stage. BUT set them with their
crossovers engaged and you can achieve maximum performance! You have
effectively increased the power handling of your driver by band limiting
them. We do this all the time in Pro audio. That is often why we like to run
3 way tops (plus subs on the bottom) because you are able to achieve maximum
performance of each driver by allowing the work the frequencies they are
comfortable with. Care to challenge this any? So tell me again why you would
want the crossovers off?



.. If you are setting
> gains 101% properly with a multimeter and want your extra headroom that
> can end up being distortion anyways ; simply use
> -3db test tones instead of 0db test tones

Or just get some ****ing music that you know well and go the **** at it.
Your multimeter is not a set of ears. Always trust your ears, and go with
what they tell you because it's you that has to listen to the ****ing thing
everyday not some damned multimeter. A multimeter is a great thing in car
audio, to check for problems. It is not a substitute for listening though.

Now, getting back to what originally started all of this. You attempted to
show Bob how to "limit" his system. The one and only way to do it is to set
it so that it cannot possibly every get louder than a certain point,
therefore you have no headroom. That is what you recommended, which is
asinine. Now you change it to attempt to fit your argument. Stick to one
thing MrB and quit trying to modify your way of doing it to fit your
argument.

.. If you set an amp to the
> proper voltage at 50hz , you are making in push the power it would push
> into 2 ohms , when in reality at 50 hz the sub is playing at like 7
> ohms .. Try argueing with me on this point and you'' look dumber than
> you do arguing with me at all about any of this .

Well, I am not sure what the **** you are even attempting to say here. Maybe
write it in English with proper grammar and we can get somewhere. Earlier
you were talking 180Hz at 4ohms and now it's 50Hz at 2ohms or 7ohms? Do you
just randomly pull numbers out of your ass and type them?


> 2.) Yeah your mom does give good ones

Hmmmm..... You are not very good at this are you?Typically you should at
least attempt to be creative and make up your own insults, instead of just
recycling the ones I have already used. But being a half-brain-dead
repressed homo I guess you just have too much going on to think of any.

, she is REALLY in touch with her
> feminine side

That's good. She is a female so I would expect that. Is that supposed to be
an insult? You really need some help in that department, maybe your dad
could help if he wasn't so ashamed to have a daughter for a son.

- thats why she names you Leslie you panty wearing
> dimwit

Now you thinking about me in panties? You have some serious issues, I think
you should get some help.


> 3.) It doesnt matter what YOU did because no one gives a fu*k how you
> set gains .

Well the hundreds of happy customers and friends that I have set the gains
in their vehicles for sure cared. The 500 people that saw the concert I
mixed the other night sure cared, as they enjoyed the show and I got many
compliments on the sound. I was also the system tech and therefore
responsible for the gain structure. Which is way more complex than cars and
infinitely easier to screw up, especially when idiots break out their scopes
and meters and it sounds like ****.

"
> Mister_B has an interesting way of setting gains" Which in all honesty
> isnt my way of setting anything - it's the professional ; scientific
> way of doing it

Well I know several professionals who set gains by ear most of the time. The
only exceptions I can think of are in complex multizone sytems, but those
don't apply to car audio.


>>. Sure you can set gains by ear - but who cares ?

Well, anyone who wants their system to perform to their satisfaction and not
what is "scientifically accurate". Scientifically accurate would also mean
that the system should be totally flat, does that make it sound good though?
Nope, and neither does this.

And that is not the only debate. What about the asinine ideas of setting
gains with the crossovers off and using a single frequency tone? Which I
have shown why these are fallible at best.

If
> you are needing your amp to put out what it is rated to ( and some amp
> are underrated ) you need a scope and a multimeter .

No, you don't. Just go with what your ears tell you.

If you want your
> amp to be set up PERFECTLY to put out what it says it will on paper in
> the specs , you use a true rms multimeter

It will only put out perfectly what you set it for IF you are playing the
exact same tone at the same volume and the same frequency. In other words,
NEVER when you are actually listening to music. I don't know about you but
music is what I listen too, not tones.

... If you now that setting an
> amp without any clipping at all provides a clean signal 100% of the
> time , then you do

Sure. But it's unnecessary.

If you wanna keep on arguing with me like what I write doesnt
> feel good to you , then say ouch and stfu

It has nothing to do with feeling good. It is just that you are a ****ing
moron that spouts dumbass things with asinine reasons. I have showed the
fallibility of your method time and time again. Your ears is what you use to
listen to your stereo so your ears should be the final judge.

.. You are not proving you
> know more than me , because you dont , never have , never will

I don't? Oh well, I don't care what you think. The hundreds of people that
are enjoying systems that I installed and the hundreds that will enjoy them
can be the judge of that.

.. Every
> thread I see you in you have some type of attitude

I just don't do well with idiots and audio myths.

, but you are not
> helping Bob to understand how to set up his amps to put out less power
> IF he's worried about slightly overpowering them

Bob,
Don't worry about it. I hope that you have gathered from this that by
setting the gains as MisterB would limit the system beyond usability and
likely not enjoy your system. Hook it up, turn the gains up and enjoy the
damn thing. That is why you go it wasn't it? The link from previous threads
will get you up and going in no time at all.

. Just because you set
> up amps the simpleton way , doesnt mean your way is the only way ..


No it's not the only way. But it is simple and effective and will sound good
to the persons ears, not just look good on paper and on a meter.

> It's not that I dont like the way you believe to do it .. I dont like
> you or your attitude about me knowing a more accurate way ..

Did my attitude hurt your feelings? Get over it. Post bull**** here and I
will call you up on it.

Your way makes no sense, it is illogical. It may look good on paper until
you really look at what it does to the final result of the system. Your way
puts the SQ into the hands of a meter and not your ears, where it should be.

People can choose which way they want to do it. But they should always allow
their ears to be the judge and not some damn math and a meter.

Les

[Les]

"Mister_B" > wrote in message
...
>
> Bob Wrote : Ah. Perfect. Found a review at Mobile Entertainment. Here's
> a link
> for anyone who might be researching this in the future:
>
> http://www.m-emag.com/article.asp?s...2&page_number=1
>
> Thanks to all for their help and for the debate about setting gains.
> ;-)
>
> Bob
>
> >> Great job finding the review Bob ! Anyways , besides Les coming in
> and thread crapping if you set gains his way with an amp that is
> overpowering the sub there is a greater chance of thermal death to the
> sub

Bob, the chances of you blowing an IDMAX is unlikely. You would be surprised
at how little power you are actually using most of the time. And in the
transients that extra 110 watts is not a big deal. You could have an extra
500 watts and still be fine. Mister_B has little comprehension of real world
scenarios, which is obvious from his posts. I am not thread crapping, I am
pointing out that Mr Bs ways are inherently flawed. His way takes the
speakers, and therefore the ability to hear, out of the equation and places
all the trust in a meter. You could effectively do it this way using a dummy
load and a meter if you so desired, but what good would that do? Also, he
thinks they are actually accurate, but they are not even that. If he really
wants to get scientific about gain structure and unity gains etc then that's
a different matter.

. Use -3db test tones and the tutorial found here
> http://jlaudio.com/tutorials/index.html

Well if he uses -3db test tones then he still would have the ability to give
the amp more input, which would result in more output.......So then you have
just given back that extra power that you were so desperately trying to
avoid earlier. What happened? And then what are you referencing with -3db?
Is it dbV or dbU? Or do you even know the different between the two?

I also see that you are now using -3db tones to have some semblence of
headroom, though 6db of headroom would make me happier, and given the crest
factor of most music 12db would be more suiting. It would appear that you
may have seen the error in setting things to max, which results in no
headroom. Which means it cannot get louder even when you want it too.

> The second tutorial down - JL Audio knows better than Les

I am very certain there are individuals at JL that know more than I. But I
am also certain that their tech pages have many errors, use google and you
can find some examples. I am also certain that JL seemed to have declined to
answer the questions I asked them about their method of setting gain
structure. And JL does not address the inherent issues that I have raised.

And JL never says anything about 180Hz for the sub, which you originally
stated, nor about doing this with the crossovers off. So where did all this
nonsense come from? In fact, JL recommends turning the system back on, after
you are done, and adjusting the levels by ear to get the balance right! Why
the hell bother with using a meter in the first place? Just do it by ear to
begin with and you just saved yourself a lot of trouble.


>, and so do
> I which is why I bothered to further how to do it

You just keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile ponder the issues I have
raised and your lack of response to address them specifically.

> You calculate what the reading on the multimeter should be as this
> (rms power)-multiplied by-impedance .. squareroot of that total = volts
>
> So 1000 watts driven into a 2 ohm load = 2000 = 44.72v
> Set your sub up with crossovers off , 180hz tone and set your highs up
> with x-overs off 1000hz tone ..

Bob,

I hope that you see the fallacy in setting gains using these tones and
meters. You should tune the system the way you listen to the system. Even
his only reference ends up tweaking things by ear, so why screw with the
meters in the first place? He thinks it is the most accurate way of doing
it, but it's not! To be truly 100% accurate, and not give a **** about SQ,
you would need more than a meter and a couple of tones. But either way it
doesn't matter. Just remember, it's your ears that have to listen to it
everyday, not a meter!

Les

[Bob]

Mister_B > wrote in message >...
> Bob Wrote : Ah. Perfect. Found a review at Mobile Entertainment. Here's
> a link
> for anyone who might be researching this in the future:
>
> http://www.m-emag.com/article.asp?s...2&page_number=1
>
> Thanks to all for their help and for the debate about setting gains.
> ;-)
>
> Bob
>
> >> Great job finding the review Bob ! Anyways , besides Les coming in
> and thread crapping if you set gains his way with an amp that is
> overpowering the sub there is a greater chance of thermal death to the
> sub . Use -3db test tones and the tutorial found here
> http://jlaudio.com/tutorials/index.html
> The second tutorial down - JL Audio knows better than Les , and so do
> I which is why I bothered to further how to do it
> You calculate what the reading on the multimeter should be as this
> (rms power)-multiplied by-impedance .. squareroot of that total = volts
>
> So 1000 watts driven into a 2 ohm load = 2000 = 44.72v
> Set your sub up with crossovers off , 180hz tone and set your highs up
> with x-overs off 1000hz tone ..
> Told ya the sub was VERY nice SQ wise !!

Outstanding. Now all I need to do is buy the sub and install
everything. Piece of cake. ROFL

Thanks Mister_B!

Bob

[Mark Zarella]

> > The second tutorial down - JL Audio knows better than Les
>
> I am very certain there are individuals at JL that know more than I. But I
> am also certain that their tech pages have many errors, use google and you
> can find some examples. I am also certain that JL seemed to have declined to
> answer the questions I asked them about their method of setting gain
> structure. And JL does not address the inherent issues that I have raised.

I have to back up Les on this one. JL's tech site is loaded with errors
and misconceptions, many of which are refuted by other manufacturers and
common sense. I don't imagine one of their senior engineers actually
wrote it. Probably someone in the PR department who took one or two
introductory physics courses in college, as a requirement towards their
business degree.