Comments on Sound and Vision Magazine Turntable Cover Story

[whosbest54[_2_]]

<http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=64&article_id=23
87&page_number=1&print_page=y>

This was the cover story in the July/August Sound and Vision (S&V)
magazine. I saw the article several weeks ago and waited until it was
posted to their web site to provide comments here.

Generally, S&V’s equipment reviews have been objective and contain lab
measurements. Their speaker reviews contain subjective opinions from
listening as well as lab measurements, as they should. These 3 turntable
‘reviews’ (they call them that), were really a description of one
person’s experience setting up and listening to them. There are no lab
measurements for the units. There was no description of the audio
equipment the units were hooked up to or the room the equipment was in.
They had different cartridges. It appears different LPs were played on
each for the evaluation. Yet, the author tried to compare the 3 on the
same footing?

It appears the main purpose of the article was to give readers a
reintroduction to vinyl and the equipment it is played on so they can
‘rediscover’ LPs. Well, if one was going to do that, wouldn’t you
describe how to store, handle and clean LPs? To me, that’s more
important than using the latest high end overpriced turntable. At least
they reviewed one relatively reasonably priced unit along with 2 badly
overpriced ones.

Take the same clean as a whistle high quality LP (half speed master disks
come to mind as one example) and play it on these 3 units with the same
cartridge and playback equipment in the same room in a blind test and I’d
bet listeners wouldn’t hear the difference. Bring in a decent $150
turntable with the same cartridge and hook it up that audio equipment and
I’d bet the result would still be the same.

They did state one reason to consider badly overpriced units "make the
local audiophiles jealous". But that’s not a valid reason in my opinion,
as explained in my RAO User Guide (link in my sig, below).

The overly subjective performance sections were the most galling as all
the characteristics were attributed to just the turntables, when what the
author was mainly listening to was the characteristics of the LP,
cartridge and audio system it was hooked up to and we know nothing about
the audio system or the room it was in.

These are the most ridiculous statements, in my opinion:

"Contrary to popular thinking, the better the turntable and cartridge,
the lower the surface noise - and the Debut III was a case in point,
playing music over an impressively quiet background." Do you really
think you need to spend thousands of dollars to actually hear a
significant difference in surface noise? How do you know? Did you
measure it? I’ll bet a listener will hear pretty much the same amount of
that normal low level ‘rushing’ noise in quieter passages with all of
these units if they have the same cartridge and are hooked up to the same
equipment, playing the same LP.

"This is a quick- and light-sounding turntable, with plenty of what
British audio junkies call PRaT - pace, rhythm, and timing." What the
heck does that mean? Maybe if one was describing a drummer...

"Right from the outset, it was clear that the Baltic M could play music
with a sense of scale and dimensionality that the more affordable models
could never quite match." How do you know? You didn’t use the same
cartridge or play the same LP on it as the others.

If you’re a S&V subscriber, consider writing to them about this poor
piece and/or canceling your subscription. Feel free to cite any of this
usenet post if you write.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

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[Arny Krueger]

"whosbest54" > wrote in message
...
> <http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=64&article_id=23
> 87&page_number=1&print_page=y>
>
> This was the cover story in the July/August Sound and Vision (S&V)
> magazine. I saw the article several weeks ago and waited until it was
> posted to their web site to provide comments here.
>
> Generally, S&V's equipment reviews have been objective and contain lab
> measurements. Their speaker reviews contain subjective opinions from
> listening as well as lab measurements, as they should. These 3 turntable
> 'reviews' (they call them that), were really a description of one
> person's experience setting up and listening to them. There are no lab
> measurements for the units. There was no description of the audio
> equipment the units were hooked up to or the room the equipment was in.
> They had different cartridges. It appears different LPs were played on
> each for the evaluation. Yet, the author tried to compare the 3 on the
> same footing?
>
> It appears the main purpose of the article was to give readers a
> reintroduction to vinyl and the equipment it is played on so they can
> 'rediscover' LPs. Well, if one was going to do that, wouldn't you
> describe how to store, handle and clean LPs? To me, that's more
> important than using the latest high end overpriced turntable. At least
> they reviewed one relatively reasonably priced unit along with 2 badly
> overpriced ones.
>
> Take the same clean as a whistle high quality LP (half speed master disks
> come to mind as one example) and play it on these 3 units with the same
> cartridge and playback equipment in the same room in a blind test and I'd
> bet listeners wouldn't hear the difference. Bring in a decent $150
> turntable with the same cartridge and hook it up that audio equipment and
> I'd bet the result would still be the same.
>
> They did state one reason to consider badly overpriced units "make the
> local audiophiles jealous". But that's not a valid reason in my opinion,
> as explained in my RAO User Guide (link in my sig, below).
>
> The overly subjective performance sections were the most galling as all
> the characteristics were attributed to just the turntables, when what the
> author was mainly listening to was the characteristics of the LP,
> cartridge and audio system it was hooked up to and we know nothing about
> the audio system or the room it was in.
>
> These are the most ridiculous statements, in my opinion:
>
> "Contrary to popular thinking, the better the turntable and cartridge,
> the lower the surface noise - and the Debut III was a case in point,
> playing music over an impressively quiet background." Do you really
> think you need to spend thousands of dollars to actually hear a
> significant difference in surface noise? How do you know? Did you
> measure it? I'll bet a listener will hear pretty much the same amount of
> that normal low level 'rushing' noise in quieter passages with all of
> these units if they have the same cartridge and are hooked up to the same
> equipment, playing the same LP.
>
> "This is a quick- and light-sounding turntable, with plenty of what
> British audio junkies call PRaT - pace, rhythm, and timing." What the
> heck does that mean? Maybe if one was describing a drummer...
>
> "Right from the outset, it was clear that the Baltic M could play music
> with a sense of scale and dimensionality that the more affordable models
> could never quite match." How do you know? You didn't use the same
> cartridge or play the same LP on it as the others.
>
> If you're a S&V subscriber, consider writing to them about this poor
> piece and/or canceling your subscription. Feel free to cite any of this
> usenet post if you write.

I understand that S&V has had quite a bit of turnover and shrinkage of their
staff. That probably explains the precipitous drop in quality.

[Clyde Slick]

On 7 Aug, 16:46, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:


>
> I understand that S&V has had quite a bit of turnover and shrinkage of their
> staff. That probably explains the precipitous drop in quality.- Ascunde citatul -
>
> - Afiºare text în citat -


Mommy!
I shrunk the audio writers!

[whosbest54[_2_]]

In article >,
says...
>
>I understand that S&V has had quite a bit of turnover and shrinkage of their
>staff. That probably explains the precipitous drop in quality.
>
What's your source Arny?

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

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[whosbest54[_2_]]

In article >,
says...
>
>
><http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=64&article_id=23
>87&page_number=1&print_page=y>
>
<http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/audiovideo/board/message?board.id=31&th
read.id=1839>

I just discovered someone agreed with some of the things I said on the S&V
Forum a month ago. See the first post to the thread.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

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[whosbest54[_2_]]

In article . com>,
says...
>
>
>On Aug 7, 9:34 am, whosbest54 >
>wrote:
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>
>> ><http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=64&article_id=23
>> >87&page_number=1&print_page=y>
>>
>> <http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/audiovideo/board/message?board.id...
>> read.id=1839>
>
>Google or your reader is honking up this link. I can't get to your
>post.
>
Scott, many usenet readers will accept the form of line wrapped url in <>
brackets. Apparently, yours doesn't and google groups apparently doesn't
either. Paste the url in 2 pieces in your browser. Also, I'll try to provide
a tinyurl from now on.

http://tinyurl.com/2atyo4

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/

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[Howard Ferstler]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> I understand that S&V has had quite a bit of turnover and shrinkage of their
> staff. That probably explains the precipitous drop in quality.

It has become a "gadget" magazine. Where the hell is David
Ranada?

Howard Ferstler

[Arny Krueger]

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
news:46b8e208$1@kcnews01...
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> I understand that S&V has had quite a bit of turnover and shrinkage of
>> their staff. That probably explains the precipitous drop in quality.
>
> It has become a "gadget" magazine. Where the hell is David Ranada?

Someplace else.

http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/audiovideo/board/message?board.id=37&thread.id=154017

[Arny Krueger]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
> news:46b8e208$1@kcnews01...
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>> I understand that S&V has had quite a bit of turnover and shrinkage of
>>> their staff. That probably explains the precipitous drop in quality.
>>
>> It has become a "gadget" magazine. Where the hell is David Ranada?
>
> Someplace else.
>
> http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/audiovideo/board/message?board.id=37&thread.id=154017

also:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=378

[Howard Ferstler]

Arny Krueger wrote:

>>"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
>>news:46b8e208$1@kcnews01...

>>>Arny Krueger wrote:

>>>>I understand that S&V has had quite a bit of turnover and shrinkage of
>>>>their staff. That probably explains the precipitous drop in quality.

>>>It has become a "gadget" magazine. Where the hell is David Ranada?

>>Someplace else.

I recently received this info from a reliable source:

Good to hear from you Howard. The deal with Ranada is a
mystery. He had been made a "contract" employee just about
the time of the Valentine's Day Massacre at S&V. [HF notes:
where many of the staff were relieved of their jobs.] But I
learned that the contract employee part had already been
done by Bob Ankosko before he was fired. BTW Bob is now the
Editor of The Perfect Vision working from his home in New
Jersey for the now Texas based magazine.

In a conversation with one knowledgeable individual I was
told that David got a serious pay cut but that he was to
remain on the MastHead as Technical Director for S&V until
at least the end of 2006. In December of 2006 when I
contacted David in an e-mail I was told by one manager that
David was no longer "affiliated" with Sound & Vision.

In conversation with another editor I was told that David
had just disappeared in October - no longer answering his
phone. No longer responding to e-mail. Not submitting his
column. Interestingly he was still on the Masthead of S&V as
of the April issue. But nobody seems to know where he is or
what happened to him.

I always got along with David and admired his work but his
relationship to management at the magazine was seriously
flawed. He often came across as a petulant little nitpicker;
griping and complaining about some pretty little stuff.
Things that seemed embarassing to even me - one of his
biggest fans.

End of blurb. And, no, I will not tell anybody who fed me
this information.

Howard Ferstler

[John Atkinson]

On Aug 7, 6:34 pm, ScottW > wrote:
> On Aug 7, 3:18 pm, Howard Ferstler > wrote:
> > no, I will not tell anybody who fed me this information.
>
> It was Atkinson....he's such a blabber mouth.

For the record, David was a big help to me before I came to
the US in 1986, advising me on the state of the publishing
industry and what was typical in terms of working conditions
and benefits. But in recent years, before he was terminated by
S&V, he was more than a little cranky.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Arny Krueger]

"John Atkinson" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Aug 7, 6:34 pm, ScottW > wrote:
>> On Aug 7, 3:18 pm, Howard Ferstler > wrote:
>> > no, I will not tell anybody who fed me this information.
>>
>> It was Atkinson....he's such a blabber mouth.
>
> For the record, David was a big help to me before I came to
> the US in 1986, advising me on the state of the publishing
> industry and what was typical in terms of working conditions
> and benefits. But in recent years, before he was terminated by
> S&V, he was more than a little cranky.

Probably something about your behavior, John.

[Jenn]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > On Aug 7, 6:34 pm, ScottW > wrote:
> >> On Aug 7, 3:18 pm, Howard Ferstler > wrote:
> >> > no, I will not tell anybody who fed me this information.
> >>
> >> It was Atkinson....he's such a blabber mouth.
> >
> > For the record, David was a big help to me before I came to
> > the US in 1986, advising me on the state of the publishing
> > industry and what was typical in terms of working conditions
> > and benefits. But in recent years, before he was terminated by
> > S&V, he was more than a little cranky.
>
> Probably something about your behavior, John.

Obviously a statement based on your own bias ;-)

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > On Aug 7, 6:34 pm, ScottW > wrote:
>> >> On Aug 7, 3:18 pm, Howard Ferstler > wrote:
>> >> > no, I will not tell anybody who fed me this information.
>> >>
>> >> It was Atkinson....he's such a blabber mouth.
>> >
>> > For the record, David was a big help to me before I came to
>> > the US in 1986, advising me on the state of the publishing
>> > industry and what was typical in terms of working conditions
>> > and benefits. But in recent years, before he was terminated by
>> > S&V, he was more than a little cranky.
>>
>> Probably something about your behavior, John.
>
> Obviously a statement based on your own bias ;-)

That bias is based on personal experience.

[John Atkinson]

On Aug 7, 7:22 pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> > For the record, David [Ranada]was a big help to me before I
> > came to the US in 1986, advising me on the state of the
> > publishing industry and what was typical in terms of working
> > conditions and benefits. But in recent years, before he was
> > terminated by S&V, he was more than a little cranky.
>
> Probably something about your behavior, John.

If you say so, Mr. Krueger. I had put it down to the
problems S&V was having in the market, specifically
poor advertising sales and a catastrophic drop in
circulation renewals. Theseresulted in last year's
firing of most of the S&V editorial staff and the halving
of the rate-base circulation.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[John Atkinson]

On Aug 8, 2:08 pm, ScottW > wrote:
> On Aug 7, 4:02 pm, John Atkinson >
> > For the record, David [Ranada] was a big help to me before I
> > came to the US in 1986, advising me on the state of the publishing
> > industry and what was typical in terms of working conditions
> > and benefits. But in recent years, before he was terminated by
> > S&V, he was more than a little cranky.
>
> With friends like you and Howard I can see why.
> I doubt this guy, who seems to have simply decided
> to disappear, appreciates your very public commentary
> on his demeanor.

If you say so, ScottW.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Howard Ferstler]

ScottW wrote:

> It was Atkinson....he's such a blabber mouth.

Not even remotely close.

Howard Ferstler

[Howard Ferstler]

John Atkinson wrote:

> On Aug 7, 7:22 pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:

>>Probably something about your behavior, John.

> If you say so, Mr. Krueger. I had put it down to the
> problems S&V was having in the market, specifically
> poor advertising sales and a catastrophic drop in
> circulation renewals. Theseresulted in last year's
> firing of most of the S&V editorial staff and the halving
> of the rate-base circulation.

As I said elsewhere, the magazine has become a gadget
publication. I think the owners want it to be the National
Enquirer of the home-entertainment journalism business. They
should just opt to let it be a good magazine for AV hobby
enthusiasts, and also make a point of doing educational
articles like what we once read in Stereo Review, Audio, and
even sometimes Stereophile.

Howard Ferstler

[Howard Ferstler]

ScottW wrote:

> On Aug 7, 4:02 pm, John Atkinson >
> wrote:

>>For the record, David was a big help to me before I came to
>>the US in 1986, advising me on the state of the publishing
>>industry and what was typical in terms of working conditions
>>and benefits. But in recent years, before he was terminated by
>>S&V, he was more than a little cranky.

> With friends like you and Howard I can see why.
> I doubt this guy, who seems to have simply decided
> to disappear, appreciates your very public commentary
> on his demeanor.

It was not Mr. Atkinson. As for revealing his demeanor, the
comments show both sides of his personality, and certainly
did not undermine anybody's views of his remarkable talents,
and I believe that his prickly attitude was pretty well
known among industry types. The problem is that the guy has,
well, just plain disappeared.

Howard Ferstler

[Howard Ferstler]

John Atkinson wrote:

> On Aug 8, 2:08 pm, ScottW > wrote:

>> With friends like you and Howard I can see why.
>> I doubt this guy, who seems to have simply decided
>>to disappear, appreciates your very public commentary
>>on his demeanor.

> If you say so, ScottW.

Scott is in one of his chain-pulling moods.

Howard Ferstler

[George M. Middius]

Brother Horace, Galley Slave in the Order of Basement-Dwelling
Dust-Collector Monks, intoned:

> I think the owners want [Sound & Vision] to be the National
> Enquirer of the home-entertainment journalism business.

If you were a real person, you'd know how silly that analogy is. The
tabloid publication you reference peddles lurid gossip packaged in a
sensationalistic, trailer-trashy sensibility. How on earth does that
niche relate to consumer electronics, nimrod?

> They should just opt to let it be a good magazine for AV hobby
> enthusiasts, and also make a point of doing educational
> articles like what we once read in Stereo Review, Audio, and
> even sometimes Stereophile.

I see you're still spouting the stillborn platitudes you believe
constitute "wisdom". Have you ever stopped to wonder, Clerkie, why no
publishers seek out your opinion on how to shape and market their
magazines?

[Howard Ferstler]

George M. Middius wrote:

> I see you're still spouting the stillborn platitudes you believe
> constitute "wisdom". Have you ever stopped to wonder, Clerkie, why no
> publishers seek out your opinion on how to shape and market their
> magazines?

Because most of them depend upon readers like you for their
subscription base.

Howard Ferstler

[George M. Middius]

Dimness becomes you, Harold.

> > Brother Horace, Galley Slave in the Order of Basement-Dwelling
> > Dust-Collector Monks, intoned:

> > > I think the owners want [Sound & Vision] to be the National
> > > Enquirer of the home-entertainment journalism business.

> > If you were a real person, you'd know how silly that analogy is. The
> > tabloid publication you reference peddles lurid gossip packaged in a
> > sensationalistic, trailer-trashy sensibility. How on earth does that
> > niche relate to consumer electronics, nimrod?

You have a habit of what your palborg Krooger calls "selective editing".
I feel obliged to reinstate the parts you ignore just to remind
everybody what a hoser you are.

> > > They should just opt to let it be a good magazine for AV hobby
> > > enthusiasts, and also make a point of doing educational
> > > articles like what we once read in Stereo Review, Audio, and
> > > even sometimes Stereophile.

> > I see you're still spouting the stillborn platitudes you believe
> > constitute "wisdom". Have you ever stopped to wonder, Clerkie, why no
> > publishers seek out your opinion on how to shape and market their
> > magazines?

> Because most of them depend upon readers like you for their
> subscription base.

That explains why they've suffered precipitous losses. Do you subscribe
to S&V, Clerkie? How about Stereophile? Got to keep up with the rich
neighbors, you know.

[Howard Ferstler]

ScottW wrote:

> "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
> news:46ba55e6$1@kcnews01...
>
>>ScottW wrote:
>>
>>
>>> It was Atkinson....he's such a blabber mouth.
>>
>>Not even remotely close.

> I forgot...it was a credible blabbermouth.

Well, the note was to me, so the person who wrote it was
anything but a blabbermouth - credible though he certain
happens to be.

I was the person who decided to spread the info around a
bit. Note that the comment was not particularly derogatory
towards Ranada. His demeanor is well known in the industry,
and the comment basically said that he is one of the most
knowledgeable audio journalists in the business. I agree
with that 100%.

The big question remains: what the hell happened to him? I
was hoping that somebody here might have a clue.

Howard Ferstler

[Howard Ferstler]

ScottW wrote:

> I just don't consider it appropriate to talk disparagingly
> of a person in their absence. Do you?

Give me a break. Ranada is temperamental, but also
brilliant. How is putting forth information concerning a
minor defect in his personality disparaging? Heck, we talk
about people that way all the time on rao.

Are you saying that if I call George Bush a jerk that I am
not being a good person, because he is not here on rao to
defend himself? Ditto for all of those TV commentators who
disparage what he has done.

If we followed your guidance nobody would have much to say
about anybody on a large scale.

Howard Ferstler

[Howard Ferstler]

George M. Middius wrote:

> That explains why they've suffered precipitous losses. Do you subscribe
> to S&V, Clerkie? How about Stereophile? Got to keep up with the rich
> neighbors, you know.

I do not "subscribe" to any audio magazines, George. I do
get comp copies from a couple, however. Virtually all of my
S&V reading, such as it is, will be done at the magazine
rack while my wife grocery shops. Regarding subscriptions, I
stick to Time, Newsweek, and Consumer Reports these days for
my journalistic reading - and of course the AARP magazine.

Howard Ferstler

[Clyde Slick]

On 10 Aug, 23:00, Howard Ferstler > wrote:
> George M. Middius wrote:
> > That explains why they've suffered precipitous losses. Do you subscribe
> > to S&V, Clerkie? How about Stereophile? Got to keep up with the rich
> > neighbors, you know.
>
> I do not "subscribe" to any audio magazines, George. I do
> get comp copies from a couple, however. Virtually all of my
> S&V reading, such as it is, will be done at the magazine
> rack while my wife grocery shops. Regarding subscriptions, I
> stick to Time, Newsweek, and Consumer Reports these days for
> my journalistic reading - and of course the AARP magazine.
>
> Howard Ferstler

you ought to check out what she's putting in your food.
Saltpeter?

[Jenn]

In article . com>,
Clyde Slick > wrote:

> On 10 Aug, 23:00, Howard Ferstler > wrote:
> > George M. Middius wrote:
> > > That explains why they've suffered precipitous losses. Do you subscribe
> > > to S&V, Clerkie? How about Stereophile? Got to keep up with the rich
> > > neighbors, you know.
> >
> > I do not "subscribe" to any audio magazines, George. I do
> > get comp copies from a couple, however. Virtually all of my
> > S&V reading, such as it is, will be done at the magazine
> > rack while my wife grocery shops. Regarding subscriptions, I
> > stick to Time, Newsweek, and Consumer Reports these days for
> > my journalistic reading - and of course the AARP magazine.
> >
> > Howard Ferstler
>
> you ought to check out what she's putting in your food.
> Saltpeter?

"Pins, Abigail?"

Now THERE'S a geeky allusion!

(Anyone else happen to know it?)

[Howard Ferstler]

ScottW wrote:

> Instead we have to shhhitheads and the Middiot who do
> nothing but talk about people.
> You inadvertently condone their behavior with your
> own.

Heck, I treated him pretty well. I have read some other
comments that were considerably more disparaging than what I
posted.

When I take my break again in a short while, feel free to
disparage me all you want. Just, as I did with the Ranada
commentary, be sure to also point out my good features, too.

Howard Ferstler

[George M. Middius]

Brother Horace reveals another depth to his all-encompassing ignorance.

> > > Because most of them depend upon readers like you for their
> > > subscription base.

> > That explains why they've suffered precipitous losses.

Did you sleep through my reply, Harold? You condemned your beloved S&V
by accusing them of not knowing how to market their mag. Time to admit
you don't know what you're babbling about (again).

[MiNe 109]

In article

om>,
Jenn > wrote:

> In article . com>,
> Clyde Slick > wrote:

> > you ought to check out what she's putting in your food.
> > Saltpeter?
>
> "Pins, Abigail?"
>
> Now THERE'S a geeky allusion!
>
> (Anyone else happen to know it?)

For God's sake, John, sit down!

Stephen

[George M. Middius]

Jenn said:

> > Saltpeter?

> "Pins, Abigail?"
> Now THERE'S a geeky allusion!
> (Anyone else happen to know it?)

I looked it up... A song from "1776". Are they still staging that show,
or are you just rehearsing it for the heck of it?

[Jenn]

In article >,
George M. Middius <cmndr _ george @ comcast . net> wrote:

> Jenn said:
>
> > > Saltpeter?
>
> > "Pins, Abigail?"
> > Now THERE'S a geeky allusion!
> > (Anyone else happen to know it?)
>
> I looked it up... A song from "1776". Are they still staging that show,
> or are you just rehearsing it for the heck of it?

Wow, good job! Yes, it's still produced. And a fine show it is.

[Jenn]

In article
>,
MiNe 109 > wrote:

> In article
>
> om>,
> Jenn > wrote:
>
> > In article . com>,
> > Clyde Slick > wrote:
>
> > > you ought to check out what she's putting in your food.
> > > Saltpeter?
> >
> > "Pins, Abigail?"
> >
> > Now THERE'S a geeky allusion!
> >
> > (Anyone else happen to know it?)
>
> For God's sake, John, sit down!
>
> Stephen

Well done! ;-)