Missing "Hard" Bass in System

[Guest[_2_]]

I have this
(http://www.crutchfield.com/S-V8nL1LRP4al/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?print=Y&I=108r5761a&tab=review
) amp and Infinity Kappas. For some reason I am missing hard bass lines
and hard bass. Is there something wrong? Well, sure it is. I tried
adjusting the crossover and I still have that problem. It is annoying. I
have no problem otherwise. Should I go with separates?

[Jack Bauer]

Guest wrote:
> I have this
> (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-V8nL1LRP4al/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?print=Y&I=108r5761a&tab=review
> ) amp and Infinity Kappas. For some reason I am missing hard bass lines
> and hard bass. Is there something wrong? Well, sure it is. I tried
> adjusting the crossover and I still have that problem. It is annoying.
> I have no problem otherwise. Should I go with separates?

My first question is - have you had good sound in that car in the past?
Because if you haven't, then you may have problems with the car's
acoustics, needing sound proofing, eliminate SPL, Dynamat, etc.

I have a car with similar problems. I don't think the addition of an
amp is the answer or cause of these problems. In my case, the rear deck
has a number of holes in it, so I get speaker pressure loss until I
plug them. Then there are the plastic body panels which absorb a lot of
the sound, and I have to use sound deadener there.

[Guest[_2_]]

"Jack Bauer" > wrote in message
.. .
> Guest wrote:
>> I have this
>> (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-V8nL1LRP4al/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?print=Y&I=108r5761a&tab=review
>> ) amp and Infinity Kappas. For some reason I am missing hard bass lines
>> and hard bass. Is there something wrong? Well, sure it is. I tried
>> adjusting the crossover and I still have that problem. It is annoying.
>> I have no problem otherwise. Should I go with separates?
>
> My first question is - have you had good sound in that car in the past?
> Because if you haven't, then you may have problems with the car's
> acoustics, needing sound proofing, eliminate SPL, Dynamat, etc.
>
> I have a car with similar problems. I don't think the addition of an amp
> is the answer or cause of these problems. In my case, the rear deck has a
> number of holes in it, so I get speaker pressure loss until I plug them.
> Then there are the plastic body panels which absorb a lot of the sound,
> and I have to use sound deadener there.


Well how do you know if that is the problem if you cannot hear it? I have
had good sound as far as hearing hard bass before I put an amp in. I hear
very low lows, but no hard bass. I heard even less before I switched head
units.

[e-nigma]

"Guest" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Jack Bauer" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Guest wrote:
>>> I have this
>>> (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-V8nL1LRP4al/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?print=Y&I=108r5761a&tab=review
>>> ) amp and Infinity Kappas. For some reason I am missing hard bass
>>> lines and hard bass. Is there something wrong? Well, sure it is. I
>>> tried adjusting the crossover and I still have that problem. It is
>>> annoying. I have no problem otherwise. Should I go with separates?
>>
>> My first question is - have you had good sound in that car in the past?
>> Because if you haven't, then you may have problems with the car's
>> acoustics, needing sound proofing, eliminate SPL, Dynamat, etc.
>>
>> I have a car with similar problems. I don't think the addition of an amp
>> is the answer or cause of these problems. In my case, the rear deck has
>> a number of holes in it, so I get speaker pressure loss until I plug
>> them. Then there are the plastic body panels which absorb a lot of the
>> sound, and I have to use sound deadener there.
>
>
> Well how do you know if that is the problem if you cannot hear it? I have
> had good sound as far as hearing hard bass before I put an amp in. I hear
> very low lows, but no hard bass. I heard even less before I switched head
> units.

You may have a phasing problem.
Check that all the positives and negative speaker lines from the amp are
going to the positive and negatives of the speakers

[Matt Ion]

Guest wrote:
> "Jack Bauer" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Guest wrote:
>>> I have this
>>> (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-V8nL1LRP4al/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?print=Y&I=108r5761a&tab=review
>>> ) amp and Infinity Kappas. For some reason I am missing hard bass
>>> lines and hard bass. Is there something wrong? Well, sure it is. I
>>> tried adjusting the crossover and I still have that problem. It is
>>> annoying. I have no problem otherwise. Should I go with separates?
>>
>> My first question is - have you had good sound in that car in the
>> past? Because if you haven't, then you may have problems with the
>> car's acoustics, needing sound proofing, eliminate SPL, Dynamat, etc.
>>
>> I have a car with similar problems. I don't think the addition of an
>> amp is the answer or cause of these problems. In my case, the rear
>> deck has a number of holes in it, so I get speaker pressure loss until
>> I plug them. Then there are the plastic body panels which absorb a lot
>> of the sound, and I have to use sound deadener there.
>
>
> Well how do you know if that is the problem if you cannot hear it?

That's pretty ignorant, isn't it? NOBODY in this group can hear your
car, so by this logic, how can you expect ANYONE to help you?

Go away, troll.

[Guest[_2_]]

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:HSJpi.5517$fJ5.894@pd7urf1no...
> Guest wrote:
>> "Jack Bauer" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>> Guest wrote:
>>>> I have this
>>>> (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-V8nL1LRP4al/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?print=Y&I=108r5761a&tab=review
>>>> ) amp and Infinity Kappas. For some reason I am missing hard bass
>>>> lines and hard bass. Is there something wrong? Well, sure it is. I
>>>> tried adjusting the crossover and I still have that problem. It is
>>>> annoying. I have no problem otherwise. Should I go with separates?
>>>
>>> My first question is - have you had good sound in that car in the past?
>>> Because if you haven't, then you may have problems with the car's
>>> acoustics, needing sound proofing, eliminate SPL, Dynamat, etc.
>>>
>>> I have a car with similar problems. I don't think the addition of an
>>> amp is the answer or cause of these problems. In my case, the rear deck
>>> has a number of holes in it, so I get speaker pressure loss until I plug
>>> them. Then there are the plastic body panels which absorb a lot of the
>>> sound, and I have to use sound deadener there.
>>
>>
>> Well how do you know if that is the problem if you cannot hear it?
>
> That's pretty ignorant, isn't it? NOBODY in this group can hear your car,
> so by this logic, how can you expect ANYONE to help you?
>
> Go away, troll.


YOU are ignorant. I did not mean that in a smart ass way, I meant it in a
"I cannot hear the bass" way. Meaning, how does one know what the problem
is since I cannot hear the hard bass? I'll take the blame since I did not
make myself very clear.

[Nick and Tina]

> >
> > Well how do you know if that is the problem if you cannot hear it?
>
> That's pretty ignorant, isn't it? NOBODY in this group can hear your
> car, so by this logic, how can you expect ANYONE to help you?
>
> Go away, troll.

Good 'ol helpful Mat. Though he is half right, none of us can really know
what's wrong (if anything) without listening. The best we can do is make
educated guesses based on experience and the info you give us.

Enigma's idea of checking the connections so that the positive goes to
positive and the negative goes to negative is a VERY good one. Bass is VERY
suseptable (because bass is omni-directional versus treble) to cancellation
if connected out of phase.

If connected correctly, and the problem is still present, try connecting
them out of phase (just switch around ONE of the speakers connections).
It's possible that with the addition of the amp, you have a situation where
the distance between the two speakers is creating cancellation. It's a bit
of a long shot, but worth a try and easy to do.

Make sure your high-pass filter for these speakers are not set too high on
the amp. Depending on the X-over slope (and whether you own a subwoofer) 80
Hz is typically a good starting point. If you have no subwoofer, then would
want to go lower, perhaps 40-50Hz.

Also, this amp has bass boost controls. Try adjusting these to get the
sound you want.

Good luck,

MOSFET

[Guest[_2_]]

"Nick and Tina" > wrote in message
m...
>> >
>> > Well how do you know if that is the problem if you cannot hear it?
>>
>> That's pretty ignorant, isn't it? NOBODY in this group can hear your
>> car, so by this logic, how can you expect ANYONE to help you?
>>
>> Go away, troll.
>
> Good 'ol helpful Mat. Though he is half right, none of us can really know
> what's wrong (if anything) without listening. The best we can do is make
> educated guesses based on experience and the info you give us.
>
> Enigma's idea of checking the connections so that the positive goes to
> positive and the negative goes to negative is a VERY good one. Bass is
> VERY
> suseptable (because bass is omni-directional versus treble) to
> cancellation
> if connected out of phase.
>
> If connected correctly, and the problem is still present, try connecting
> them out of phase (just switch around ONE of the speakers connections).
> It's possible that with the addition of the amp, you have a situation
> where
> the distance between the two speakers is creating cancellation. It's a
> bit
> of a long shot, but worth a try and easy to do.
>
> Make sure your high-pass filter for these speakers are not set too high on
> the amp. Depending on the X-over slope (and whether you own a subwoofer)
> 80
> Hz is typically a good starting point. If you have no subwoofer, then
> would
> want to go lower, perhaps 40-50Hz.
>
> Also, this amp has bass boost controls. Try adjusting these to get the
> sound you want.
>
> Good luck,
>
> MOSFET
>
>


Thanks. It hit me again today. I was listening to some Sam Cooke (yep) and
you know that older music his hard bass heavy. The hard bass was not even
there! I have notice that in a lot of different musical types. It's the
good thing I don't just listen to rap or I would never have noticed it.

I will try the rewiring of the sub. I did kind of recall the positive and
negative being on different sides on the inside of the box than it was on
the outside. I could be mistaken, but I will try the rewire. I was
thinking of getting separates if this continued. What is a good crossover
frequency to set the sub at? I have it at around 320hz right now. The
lower I go even more hard bass is lost. I will try the bass boost thing
again also. See, I only have one sub (4ohm) bi-wired for 2 ohms. It used
to overheat with my last, 3 year old head unit. Now I turned the sub down
to prevent this. However, the hard bass is not there. It is a stereo sub
hook up. My new head unit did not specify a right or left channel of the
RCA jacks. This part of the system is very annoying. Everything else is
right.

[MOSFET]

However, the hard bass is not there. It is a stereo sub
> hook up. My new head unit did not specify a right or left channel of the
> RCA jacks. This part of the system is very annoying. Everything else is
> right.
>
OK, first of all, I am NOT a big fan of running your subwoofer in stereo.
IMHO, it is best to combine the left and right channels (so mono) before
running that into your sub-amp. Again, this may be part of your problem.

Although there has been some debate about this on this newsgroup, it is
possible that the left channel's bass may be cancelling out the right
channel's bass (and vice-versa). Now this is generally not noticable on
your typical stock stereo system (especially because you get VERY little
output below about 70 Hz on your typical stock system). But with a amp and
subwoofer system, this DOES come into play. You see, the bass recorded on
the left channel may be SLIGHTLY different than the bass recorded on the
right channel. Again, because bass is omnidirectional you open the door to
cancellation effects that MAY be reducing your bass output. My advice would
be to sum the left/right channels BEFORE they go into the sub-amp. Also
(this may have already been said), if you are running multiple subwoofers
MAKE SURE they are both wired the same way (in phase). THIS WOULD SURELY
cause a dramatic decrease in bass output (in fact, you would get little bass
out of your subwoofer at all).

You mentioned a low-pass X-over point for your subwoofer of around 320 Hz I
believe? Buddy, that is WAY too high. You want a low-pass between 50-100
Hz (depending on the rest of your system). The reason is that, ideally, you
want to be aware of the low bass, but you want to make it SEEM like it is
coming from the front. This can be done if your low-pass X-over for your
sub is set below about 80Hz because, as I've mentioned before, bass is
omnidirectional and it is difficult for your ears to identify where sounds
are coming from below that frequency. At 320 Hz, I'm sure it's VERY obvious
that sound is coming from your subwoofer.

I'm concerned that your X-over point is so high because you are trying to
compensate for problems that are occuring at lower frequencies such as the
problems I mentioned above. A phasing issue would explain all the symptoms
you have mentioned in previous posts so I would first focus on that.

Good luck,

MOSFET









9

[Doug Sams]

MOSFET wrote:
> You see, the bass recorded on the left channel may be SLIGHTLY
> different than the bass recorded on the right channel. Again,
> because bass is omnidirectional you open the door to cancellation
> effects that MAY be reducing your bass output. My advice would
> be to sum the left/right channels BEFORE they go into the sub-amp.

<delurking>

If the signals going to the speakers are out of phase enough to cause
cancellation of the sound coming out, then when the signals are summed
electrically, you'll still get cancellation. Summing them won't make
any difference.

Doug

[MOSFET]

True, but you DON'T have hundreds of watts fighting it out when done at the
line-level stage, right?

MOSFET


"Doug Sams" > wrote in message
...
> MOSFET wrote:
> > You see, the bass recorded on the left channel may be SLIGHTLY
> > different than the bass recorded on the right channel. Again,
> > because bass is omnidirectional you open the door to cancellation
> > effects that MAY be reducing your bass output. My advice would
> > be to sum the left/right channels BEFORE they go into the sub-amp.
>
> <delurking>
>
> If the signals going to the speakers are out of phase enough to cause
> cancellation of the sound coming out, then when the signals are summed
> electrically, you'll still get cancellation. Summing them won't make
> any difference.
>
> Doug

[Christopher Ott]

"MOSFET" > wrote in message
m...
> However, the hard bass is not there. It is a stereo sub
>> hook up. My new head unit did not specify a right or left channel of the
>> RCA jacks. This part of the system is very annoying. Everything else is
>> right.
>>
> OK, first of all, I am NOT a big fan of running your subwoofer in stereo.
> IMHO, it is best to combine the left and right channels (so mono) before
> running that into your sub-amp. Again, this may be part of your problem.
>
> Although there has been some debate about this on this newsgroup, it is
> possible that the left channel's bass may be cancelling out the right
> channel's bass (and vice-versa). Now this is generally not noticable on
> your typical stock stereo system (especially because you get VERY little
> output below about 70 Hz on your typical stock system). But with a amp
> and
> subwoofer system, this DOES come into play. You see, the bass recorded on
> the left channel may be SLIGHTLY different than the bass recorded on the
> right channel. Again, because bass is omnidirectional you open the door
> to
> cancellation effects that MAY be reducing your bass output. My advice
> would
> be to sum the left/right channels BEFORE they go into the sub-amp. Also
> (this may have already been said), if you are running multiple subwoofers
> MAKE SURE they are both wired the same way (in phase). THIS WOULD SURELY
> cause a dramatic decrease in bass output (in fact, you would get little
> bass
> out of your subwoofer at all).
>
> You mentioned a low-pass X-over point for your subwoofer of around 320 Hz
> I
> believe? Buddy, that is WAY too high. You want a low-pass between 50-100
> Hz (depending on the rest of your system). The reason is that, ideally,
> you
> want to be aware of the low bass, but you want to make it SEEM like it is
> coming from the front. This can be done if your low-pass X-over for your
> sub is set below about 80Hz because, as I've mentioned before, bass is
> omnidirectional and it is difficult for your ears to identify where sounds
> are coming from below that frequency. At 320 Hz, I'm sure it's VERY
> obvious
> that sound is coming from your subwoofer.
>
> I'm concerned that your X-over point is so high because you are trying to
> compensate for problems that are occuring at lower frequencies such as the
> problems I mentioned above. A phasing issue would explain all the
> symptoms
> you have mentioned in previous posts so I would first focus on that.
>
> Good luck,
>
> MOSFET


I'd tend to think that phase problems would present as more of a crappy
quality of sound than the complete absence in the lower bands as he's
describing. Rolling down the windows or opening the car doors would
eliminate phasing as a factor.

I have to admit being a little confused though, as I'm not sure from the
details given whether the speakers are 2-ways or subs (or both). Can you
elaborate on what else is in the system, and what changed before you noticed
the problem?

Also, double check the amp to verify your settings for the high/low pass
filters which are built into the amp. It almost sounds like you've got your
bandpass window set backwards since a complete absence of bass is likely
caused at the signal level.

Chris