Another audio Post, Speaker project [Archive]

Eeyore

May 25th 07, 12:20 PM

ScottW wrote:

> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open baffle
> active speaker based on Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan to
> use it with a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80 Hz) and tweeter type design.
>
> I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from Madisound.
> Any specific models folks think might be appropriate?
> Other driver manufacturers worth considering?

My own speakers have a very nice 6-1/2" unit from SEAS. It's so well installed I
can get one out to tell you the part number. It's a polypropylene ? cone type. Very
natural sounding. And yes, not really suitable for extended bass itself, although
it can cope.

Graham

Clyde Slick

May 25th 07, 09:45 PM

ScottW a scris:
> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open baffle
> active speaker based on Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan to
> use it with a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80 Hz) and tweeter type design.
>
> I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from Madisound.
> Any specific models folks think might be appropriate?
> Other driver manufacturers worth considering?
>
> TIA,
>
> ScottW
>
> PS Shhhie, you keeping count? That's 2 in case you lost count already.

I deny being that friend.
Its not the way I would go.
But I am still interested in hearing them when they are done.

ScottW

May 25th 07, 10:08 PM

On May 25, 1:45 pm, Clyde Slick > wrote:
> ScottW a scris:
>
> > A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open baffle
> > active speaker based on Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan to
> > use it with a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80 Hz) and tweeter type design.
>
> > I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from Madisound.
> > Any specific models folks think might be appropriate?
> > Other driver manufacturers worth considering?
>
> > TIA,
>
> > ScottW
>
> > PS Shhhie, you keeping count? That's 2 in case you lost count already.
>
> I deny being that friend.

True...this guy's not a mooch. BTW, I left a message on your cell.

> Its not the way I would go.
> But I am still interested in hearing them when they are done.

I can hear it now....where's the bass :).

ScottW

Eeyore

May 25th 07, 11:17 PM

ScottW wrote:

> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open baffle
> active speaker

*Open baffle* !

Why would you want to go wrecking the sound like that ?

I suppose it'll sound very 40's / 50's if that's what you want. In the UK at least
maybe they were made that way for a while due to post-war materials shortages ?

A modern speaker's cone compliance especially won't be well suited to such
operation. I've seen the effect on a 12" speaker with a high compliance surround.
The cone 'wobbles about' like a jelly for lack of radiation resistance at the rear.

Graham

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

May 26th 07, 01:44 AM

On May 24, 11:53 pm, "ScottW" > wrote:

> PS Shhhie, you keeping count? That's 2 in case you lost count already.

Don't you find that odd?

I mean, having to mark your audio-related posts as "another audio
post" when on an audio newsgroup strikes me as really funny. Don't you
think so?

And to tally them for me. How sweet!

So you're posting audio-related content because of me. Keep it up,
2pid! And once you dump your weird OT posts, you might even seem
almost normal! (But not really.)

You even have the potential to seem almost intelligent! (But not
really.)

LOL!

What an imbecile.

ScottW

May 26th 07, 02:38 AM

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> ScottW wrote:
>
>> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open baffle
>> active speaker
>
> *Open baffle* !
>
> Why would you want to go wrecking the sound like that ?
>
> I suppose it'll sound very 40's / 50's if that's what you want. In the UK at
> least
> maybe they were made that way for a while due to post-war materials shortages
> ?
>
> A modern speaker's cone compliance especially won't be well suited to such
> operation. I've seen the effect on a 12" speaker with a high compliance
> surround.
> The cone 'wobbles about' like a jelly for lack of radiation resistance at the
> rear.

Wasn't planning on anything near so large. More like a 6 to 8".
But if the open baffle fails, we can always enclose it.
The open baffle is just so simple I have to try it.
The 24db/oct filters is what makes it possible.

ScottW

Eeyore

May 26th 07, 04:32 AM

ScottW wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote:
> > ScottW wrote:
> >
> >> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open baffle
> >> active speaker
> >
> > *Open baffle* !
> >
> > Why would you want to go wrecking the sound like that ?
> >
> > I suppose it'll sound very 40's / 50's if that's what you want. In the UK at
> > least
> > maybe they were made that way for a while due to post-war materials shortages
> > ?
> >
> > A modern speaker's cone compliance especially won't be well suited to such
> > operation. I've seen the effect on a 12" speaker with a high compliance
> > surround.
> > The cone 'wobbles about' like a jelly for lack of radiation resistance at the
> > rear.
>
> Wasn't planning on anything near so large. More like a 6 to 8".
> But if the open baffle fails, we can always enclose it.
> The open baffle is just so simple I have to try it.
> The 24db/oct filters is what makes it possible.

Sort of.

Modern speakers really aren't designed to operate in an undamped enclosure though.
You may get lots of overshoot / ringing.

Graham

Arny Krueger

May 26th 07, 12:12 PM

"ScottW" > wrote in message

> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small
> 2-way open baffle active speaker based on Behringer
> DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan to use it with
> a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80 Hz) and tweeter
> type design.
> I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from Madisound.
> Any specific models folks think might be appropriate?
> Other driver manufacturers worth considering?

I heard these this weekend. Not bad...

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/subwoofer.htm

Arny Krueger

May 26th 07, 12:13 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in
message
> ScottW wrote:
>
>> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small
>> 2-way open baffle active speaker
>
> *Open baffle* !
>
> Why would you want to go wrecking the sound like that ?

Good enough for someone who thinks that vinyl sounds good.

Arny Krueger

May 26th 07, 12:16 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in
message

> Modern speakers really aren't designed to operate in an
> undamped enclosure though. You may get lots of overshoot
> / ringing.

????. You said that your strength was electronics, right Graham. ;-)

Here's an example of a modern open baffle design. I heard a pair this
weekend. Not bad. Work in some rooms, not so well in others - but that is
true of every speaker.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm

Arny Krueger

May 26th 07, 12:22 PM

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message

> "Eeyore" > wrote
> in message ...
>>
>>
>> ScottW wrote:
>>
>>> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open
>>> baffle
>>> active speaker
>>
>> *Open baffle* !
>>
>> Why would you want to go wrecking the sound like that ?
>>
>> I suppose it'll sound very 40's / 50's if that's what
>> you want. In the UK at least
>> maybe they were made that way for a while due to
>> post-war materials shortages ?
>>
>> A modern speaker's cone compliance especially won't be
>> well suited to such operation. I've seen the effect on a
>> 12" speaker with a high compliance surround.
>> The cone 'wobbles about' like a jelly for lack of
>> radiation resistance at the rear.
>>
>> Graham
>>
> Radiation resistance is calculated for free fields. The
> interference between the front and back movements of air
> part of the near field, not the free field.
>
> The closed box side, is equivalent to the nonradiating
> field. In EMF terms, it would be equivalent to the
> inductive field near the antenna. Due to the effect of
> the retarded potentials, delayed by x/c, a portion of the
> inductive field is left when the main collapses back to
> the antenna, causing radiation. But you're saying that
> the cone is not controlled because there is no radiation
> resistance to the rear. In the case of an open box, the
> rear sees the same radiation resistance as the front.

Stripping the unecessary complexity and pseudoscience away...

Modern drivers are almost all designed for closed boxes. Therefore they have
too low of a Q to have flat response when mounted in an infinite baffle.
They are overdamped and less resonant than optimal. This can be corrected
with a bit of electrical equalization in the form of a low Q bass lift.

Eeyore

May 26th 07, 03:56 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote
>
> > Modern speakers really aren't designed to operate in an
> > undamped enclosure though. You may get lots of overshoot
> > / ringing.
>
> ????. You said that your strength was electronics, right Graham. ;-)
>
> Here's an example of a modern open baffle design. I heard a pair this
> weekend. Not bad. Work in some rooms, not so well in others - but that is
> true of every speaker.
>
> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm

I was referring to modern drivers in general Arny. They're designed in the
expectation of being damped via the cabinet air load.

Graham

Eeyore

May 26th 07, 03:57 PM

Soundhaspriority wrote:

> "Eeyore" wrote
> >
> > Modern speakers really aren't designed to operate in an undamped enclosure
> > though.
> > You may get lots of overshoot / ringing.
> >
> Some car speakers are.

That's true enough. In as much as they are 'designed' at all !

Graham

Eeyore

May 26th 07, 03:59 PM

Soundhaspriority wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > ScottW wrote:
> >
> >> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open
> >> baffle
> >> active speaker
> >
> > *Open baffle* !
> >
> > Why would you want to go wrecking the sound like that ?
> >
> > I suppose it'll sound very 40's / 50's if that's what you want. In the UK
> > at least
> > maybe they were made that way for a while due to post-war materials
> > shortages ?
> >
> > A modern speaker's cone compliance especially won't be well suited to such
> > operation. I've seen the effect on a 12" speaker with a high compliance
> > surround.
> > The cone 'wobbles about' like a jelly for lack of radiation resistance at
> > the rear.
> >
> > Graham
> >
> Radiation resistance is calculated for free fields. The interference between
> the front and back movements of air part of the near field, not the free
> field.
>
> The closed box side, is equivalent to the nonradiating field. In EMF terms,
> it would be equivalent to the inductive field near the antenna. Due to the
> effect of the retarded potentials, delayed by x/c, a portion of the
> inductive field is left when the main collapses back to the antenna, causing
> radiation. But you're saying that the cone is not controlled because there
> is no radiation resistance to the rear. In the case of an open box, the rear
> sees the same radiation resistance as the front.

Yes.

What I should have mentioned was the rear 'loading' of the cone. It massively
controls cone movement in every other design bar open baffle.

Graham

Arny Krueger

May 26th 07, 04:29 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in
message

> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> Here's an example of a modern open baffle design. I
>> heard a pair this weekend. Not bad. Work in some rooms,
>> not so well in others - but that is true of every
>> speaker.

>> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm

> I was referring to modern drivers in general Arny.
> They're designed in the expectation of being damped via
> the cabinet air load.

The point is that the air in the cabinet doesn't damp the driver, it helps
create a larger, higher-Q resonance. Therefore, drivers for sealed or vented
boxes as a rule have lower Q, because a lower Q driver adds a damping to the
more highly resonant system that is created by the box.

Higher Q drivers are used on infinite baffles, as well as finite ones. If
you use a low-Q driver on an infinite baffle, then you end up with an
overdamped system.

ScottW

May 26th 07, 06:56 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>
>> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small
>> 2-way open baffle active speaker based on Behringer
>> DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan to use it with
>> a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80 Hz) and tweeter
>> type design.
>> I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from Madisound.
>> Any specific models folks think might be appropriate?
>> Other driver manufacturers worth considering?
>
> I heard these this weekend. Not bad...
>
> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/subwoofer.htm

The Pluto or the sub? I looked at the Orion
quite a bit but want something with low distortion
at moderate sound levels.
The few unbiased (not owners)
comments I've read on Orion say it shines
at high volumes.

ScottW

Arny Krueger

May 27th 07, 12:24 PM

"ScottW" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>
>>> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small
>>> 2-way open baffle active speaker based on Behringer
>>> DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan to use it
>>> with a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80 Hz) and
>>> tweeter type design.
>>> I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from Madisound.
>>> Any specific models folks think might be appropriate?
>>> Other driver manufacturers worth considering?
>>
>> I heard these this weekend. Not bad...

>> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/subwoofer.htm

> The Pluto or the sub?

Both, obviously.

> I looked at the Orion
> quite a bit but want something with low distortion
> at moderate sound levels.

What makes you think it doesn't fill this requirement?

> The few unbiased (not owners)
> comments I've read on Orion say it shines
> at high volumes.

It would be quite a stretch to think that means that the Orion lacks low
distortion at moderate sound levels. Fact of the matter - normal
loudspeakers in good working order lack any mechanism that would make them
perform less well at low levels, than high.

You know Scotty, maybe you are as dense as ****R makes you out to be. :-(

ScottW

May 27th 07, 07:02 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small
>>>> 2-way open baffle active speaker based on Behringer
>>>> DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan to use it
>>>> with a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80 Hz) and
>>>> tweeter type design.
>>>> I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from Madisound.
>>>> Any specific models folks think might be appropriate?
>>>> Other driver manufacturers worth considering?
>>>
>>> I heard these this weekend. Not bad...
>
>>> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/subwoofer.htm
>
>> The Pluto or the sub?
>
>
> Both, obviously.
>
>> I looked at the Orion
>> quite a bit but want something with low distortion
>> at moderate sound levels.
>
> What makes you think it doesn't fill this requirement?
>
>> The few unbiased (not owners)
>> comments I've read on Orion say it shines
>> at high volumes.
>
> It would be quite a stretch to think that means that the Orion lacks low
> distortion at moderate sound levels. Fact of the matter - normal loudspeakers
> in good working order lack any mechanism that would make them perform less
> well at low levels, than high.

I find that big multi-driver speakers that excel at high SPL where soundstaging
and
imaging in a room aren't usually the objective, don't do so well at low volumes
when soundstage and imaging is a key performance objective. Their a bit
incoherent
and lack the ability to disappear. Closer emulation of a point or line source
seems to be the key.
>
> You know Scotty, maybe you are as dense as ****R makes you out to be. :-(

And maybe you're really as big an asshole as everyone on usenet knows you are.

ScottW

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

May 27th 07, 07:06 PM

On May 27, 1:02 pm, "ScottW" > wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message

> > You know Scotty, maybe you are as dense as ****R makes you out to be. :-(
>
> And maybe you're really as big an asshole as everyone on usenet knows you are.

I suggest you two discuss this point in more detail.

Good old Arns can provide proof he isn't an insane old asshole, and
2pid can provide proof that he isn't suffering from terminal
stupidity.

That might even move some posts by these two into the "interesting"
category.

George M. Middius

May 27th 07, 08:00 PM

Witless tries to bite the Krooborg.

> > You know Scotty, maybe you are as dense as ****R makes you out to be. :-(

> And maybe you're really as big an asshole as everyone on usenet knows you are.

mmmm-GOOD!

--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

John Stone

May 27th 07, 08:21 PM

On 5/27/07 1:02 PM, in article , "ScottW"
> wrote:

> I find that big multi-driver speakers that excel at high SPL where
> soundstaging
> and
> imaging in a room aren't usually the objective, don't do so well at low
> volumes
> when soundstage and imaging is a key performance objective. Their a bit
> incoherent
> and lack the ability to disappear. Closer emulation of a point or line source
> seems to be the key.

You're just jumping to conclusion after conclusion on a speaker you haven't
even heard. Where did you get the idea that soundstaging and imaging weren't
key objectives of the Orion but high SPL was? Rather than all this
speculation, why don't you just contact Mr. Linkwitz and see if you can
arrange a demo? He lives in your area, and has done this for others. Jenn
should check out these speakers too. I think she'd be impressed.

Jenn

May 27th 07, 08:33 PM

In article >,
John Stone > wrote:

> On 5/27/07 1:02 PM, in article , "ScottW"
> > wrote:
>
> > I find that big multi-driver speakers that excel at high SPL where
> > soundstaging
> > and
> > imaging in a room aren't usually the objective, don't do so well at low
> > volumes
> > when soundstage and imaging is a key performance objective. Their a bit
> > incoherent
> > and lack the ability to disappear. Closer emulation of a point or line
> > source
> > seems to be the key.
>
> You're just jumping to conclusion after conclusion on a speaker you haven't
> even heard. Where did you get the idea that soundstaging and imaging weren't
> key objectives of the Orion but high SPL was? Rather than all this
> speculation, why don't you just contact Mr. Linkwitz and see if you can
> arrange a demo? He lives in your area, and has done this for others. Jenn
> should check out these speakers too. I think she'd be impressed.

Thanks; when next in the market, I'll keep him in mind.

ScottW

May 27th 07, 09:13 PM

"John Stone" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> On 5/27/07 1:02 PM, in article , "ScottW"
> > wrote:
>
>> I find that big multi-driver speakers that excel at high SPL where
>> soundstaging
>> and
>> imaging in a room aren't usually the objective, don't do so well at low
>> volumes
>> when soundstage and imaging is a key performance objective. Their a bit
>> incoherent
>> and lack the ability to disappear. Closer emulation of a point or line
>> source
>> seems to be the key.
>
> You're just jumping to conclusion after conclusion on a speaker you haven't
> even heard. Where did you get the idea that soundstaging and imaging weren't
> key objectives of the Orion but high SPL was?

Cruising the web and reading the comments of others who have heard the
Orion and my own experience with large multi-driver speakers (though not
open baffle).

> Rather than all this
> speculation, why don't you just contact Mr. Linkwitz and see if you can
> arrange a demo?

Isn't he in Phoenix? Anyway, I'm not interested in wasting his time
as I have no intention
of building or buying the Orion and I don't mean demean it in any way.
Even Mr. Linkwitz accepts that all speaker design is a tradeoff and
I'm certain I have a different set of objective criteria in my simple
project than did Mr. Linkwitz when creating the Orion.
I'm simply going another direction based on my own opinion and experience.
You're welcome to disagree but I see no value creating a system capable of
SPLs far greater than I have any intention of ever using.

ScottW

Arny Krueger

May 27th 07, 10:34 PM

"ScottW" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open
>>>>> baffle active speaker based on
>>>>> Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan
>>>>> to use it with a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80
>>>>> Hz) and tweeter type design.
>>>>> I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from
>>>>> Madisound. Any specific models folks think might be
>>>>> appropriate? Other driver manufacturers worth
>>>>> considering?
>>>>
>>>> I heard these this weekend. Not bad...
>>
>>>> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/subwoofer.htm
>>
>>> The Pluto or the sub?
>>
>>
>> Both, obviously.
>>
>>> I looked at the Orion
>>> quite a bit but want something with low distortion
>>> at moderate sound levels.
>>
>> What makes you think it doesn't fill this requirement?
>>
>>> The few unbiased (not owners)
>>> comments I've read on Orion say it shines
>>> at high volumes.

>> It would be quite a stretch to think that means that the
>> Orion lacks low distortion at moderate sound levels.
>> Fact of the matter - normal loudspeakers in good working
>> order lack any mechanism that would make them perform
>> less well at low levels, than high.

> I find that big multi-driver speakers that excel at high
> SPL where soundstaging and
> imaging in a room aren't usually the objective, don't do
> so well at low volumes when soundstage and imaging is a
> key performance objective.

Are you changing your story?

> Their a bit incoherent
> and lack the ability to disappear. Closer emulation of a
> point or line source seems to be the key.

That's irrelevant to the issue you initially brought up - distortion at low
levels. Typical of your dishonesty Scotty - you change your story without
explanation or apology for your former errors.

>> You know Scotty, maybe you are as dense as ****R makes
>> you out to be. :-(

> And maybe you're really as big an asshole as everyone on
> usenet knows you are.

Since you've proven yourself to be dishonest Scotty, you just cancelled
yourself out on the topic of my character.

Arny Krueger

May 27th 07, 10:36 PM

"John Stone" > wrote in message

> On 5/27/07 1:02 PM, in article
> , "ScottW"
> > wrote:
>
>> I find that big multi-driver speakers that excel at
>> high SPL where soundstaging
>> and
>> imaging in a room aren't usually the objective, don't do
>> so well at low volumes
>> when soundstage and imaging is a key performance
>> objective. Their a bit incoherent
>> and lack the ability to disappear. Closer emulation of
>> a point or line source seems to be the key.
>
> You're just jumping to conclusion after conclusion on a
> speaker you haven't even heard.

Worse than that, he's burdening a large number of other speakers with the
same ill-founded conclusions.

> Where did you get the
> idea that soundstaging and imaging weren't key objectives
> of the Orion but high SPL was?

He made it up.

> Rather than all this
> speculation, why don't you just contact Mr. Linkwitz and
> see if you can arrange a demo? He lives in your area,
> and has done this for others. Jenn should check out these
> speakers too. I think she'd be impressed.

I've spoken with some very well-informed folks that have heard the Linkwitz
speakers in the designer's listening room. They were very impressed.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

May 27th 07, 10:37 PM

On May 27, 4:34 pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> Since you've proven yourself to be dishonest Scotty, you just cancelled
> yourself out on the topic of my character.

Sorry, Arns. You seem to know how often 2pid and I agree.

You really are as big an asshole as 2pid says. And it pains me to
agree with him.

Take, for example, the thread on LPs. Massive personal attacks, no
info other than on why you quit showering. And I can't blame you:
hearing water spatter on your hot fat probably sounds disgusting.

Arny Krueger

May 27th 07, 10:41 PM

"John Stone" > wrote in message

> Rather than all this
> speculation, why don't you just contact Mr. Linkwitz and
> see if you can arrange a demo? He lives in your area,
> and has done this for others. Jenn should check out these
> speakers too. I think she'd be impressed.

Looks like Linkwitz lives in the bay area, which is 100's of miles north of
the San Diego/Orange county area.

Jenn

May 27th 07, 10:49 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "John Stone" > wrote in message
>
>
> > Rather than all this
> > speculation, why don't you just contact Mr. Linkwitz and
> > see if you can arrange a demo? He lives in your area,
> > and has done this for others. Jenn should check out these
> > speakers too. I think she'd be impressed.
>
> Looks like Linkwitz lives in the bay area, which is 100's of miles north of
> the San Diego/Orange county area.

You are correct that Scott is between SD and OC, but I'm quite north of
that, about half way between SF and LA.

Sander deWaal

May 28th 07, 11:32 AM

"ScottW" > said:

>A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open baffle
>active speaker based on Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan to
>use it with a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80 Hz) and tweeter type design.
>
>I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from Madisound.
>Any specific models folks think might be appropriate?
>Other driver manufacturers worth considering?

Dipole sub (many pictures here):
http://www.zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1834

I have used a DCX2496 to determine the crossover frequencies and
slopes for my 6-Maggies project.
A nice box, especially considering its price. A little noisy, though.

I used the results to make my own analog crossover for the system,
consisting of 4 Maggie panels for the low frequencies and 2 for
mid/high.
Crossover at 120 Hz 18 dB/oct and bi-amping with MOSFET amps for low
and a triode PP amp for mid/high.

Very satisfactory results.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

Arny Krueger

May 28th 07, 02:36 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "John Stone" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> Rather than all this
>>> speculation, why don't you just contact Mr. Linkwitz and
>>> see if you can arrange a demo? He lives in your area,
>>> and has done this for others. Jenn should check out
>>> these speakers too. I think she'd be impressed.
>>
>> Looks like Linkwitz lives in the bay area, which is
>> 100's of miles north of the San Diego/Orange county area.
>
> You are correct that Scott is between SD and OC, but I'm
> quite north of that, about half way between SF and LA.

Oh, then you lost your job in Orange County?

Jenn

May 28th 07, 04:59 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "John Stone" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>
> >>> Rather than all this
> >>> speculation, why don't you just contact Mr. Linkwitz and
> >>> see if you can arrange a demo? He lives in your area,
> >>> and has done this for others. Jenn should check out
> >>> these speakers too. I think she'd be impressed.
> >>
> >> Looks like Linkwitz lives in the bay area, which is
> >> 100's of miles north of the San Diego/Orange county area.
> >
> > You are correct that Scott is between SD and OC, but I'm
> > quite north of that, about half way between SF and LA.
>
> Oh, then you lost your job in Orange County?

Other than "casuals", I haven't had a job in OC since 1984. What are
you talking about?

ScottW

May 28th 07, 06:02 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>> . ..
>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open baffle
>>>>>> active speaker based on
>>>>>> Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan
>>>>>> to use it with a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80
>>>>>> Hz) and tweeter type design.
>>>>>> I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from
>>>>>> Madisound. Any specific models folks think might be
>>>>>> appropriate? Other driver manufacturers worth
>>>>>> considering?
>>>>>
>>>>> I heard these this weekend. Not bad...
>>>
>>>>> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/subwoofer.htm
>>>
>>>> The Pluto or the sub?
>>>
>>>
>>> Both, obviously.
>>>
>>>> I looked at the Orion
>>>> quite a bit but want something with low distortion
>>>> at moderate sound levels.
>>>
>>> What makes you think it doesn't fill this requirement?
>>>
>>>> The few unbiased (not owners)
>>>> comments I've read on Orion say it shines
>>>> at high volumes.
>
>>> It would be quite a stretch to think that means that the
>>> Orion lacks low distortion at moderate sound levels.
>>> Fact of the matter - normal loudspeakers in good working
>>> order lack any mechanism that would make them perform
>>> less well at low levels, than high.
>
>> I find that big multi-driver speakers that excel at high
>> SPL where soundstaging and
>> imaging in a room aren't usually the objective, don't do
>> so well at low volumes when soundstage and imaging is a
>> key performance objective.
>
> Are you changing your story?

Clarifying.

>
>> Their a bit incoherent
>> and lack the ability to disappear. Closer emulation of a
>> point or line source seems to be the key.
>
> That's irrelevant to the issue you initially brought up - distortion at low
> levels.

There are many forms of distortion.

> Typical of your dishonesty Scotty - you change your story without explanation
> or apology for your former errors.

I'm sorry your life is so lame you need to seek fights on usenet to
fill it. You have my condolences.

ScottW

ScottW

May 28th 07, 06:23 PM

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
> "ScottW" > said:
>
>>A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open baffle
>>active speaker based on Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan
>>to
>>use it with a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass (80 Hz) and tweeter type
>>design.
>>
>>I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from Madisound.
>>Any specific models folks think might be appropriate?
>>Other driver manufacturers worth considering?
>
>
> Dipole sub (many pictures here):
> http://www.zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1834

I wish I could read the section about halfway down :).

>
> I have used a DCX2496 to determine the crossover frequencies and
> slopes for my 6-Maggies project.
> A nice box, especially considering its price. A little noisy, though.

Electrically noisy or fan noisy?

>
> I used the results to make my own analog crossover for the system,
> consisting of 4 Maggie panels for the low frequencies and 2 for
> mid/high.

Active or passive?

> Crossover at 120 Hz 18 dB/oct and bi-amping with MOSFET amps for low
> and a triode PP amp for mid/high.
>
> Very satisfactory results.

I understand the digital crossover will be without phase error.
Notice anything due to phase error in your analog version?

ScottW

Sander deWaal

May 28th 07, 11:47 PM

"ScottW" > said:

>> I have used a DCX2496 to determine the crossover frequencies and
>> slopes for my 6-Maggies project.
>> A nice box, especially considering its price. A little noisy, though.

>Electrically noisy or fan noisy?

Audible noise in some setups.

Improvements are possible, especially if you're using the unit
unbalanced.
About half the opamps and associated components can be omitted in that
case, what;s left can be improved upon by using LM4562 opamps and some
redesigning of the power supply and PCB layout.

>> I used the results to make my own analog crossover for the system,
>> consisting of 4 Maggie panels for the low frequencies and 2 for
>> mid/high.

>Active or passive?

The division between low and mid/high is active, between mid and high
is passive.

> I understand the digital crossover will be without phase error.
>Notice anything due to phase error in your analog version?

Not really.
Room acoustics is far more important and noticeable.
Dunno if the same goes for cone speakers, though.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

Arny Krueger

May 29th 07, 12:47 PM

"ScottW" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>> . ..
>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A friend and I plan to build a pair of speakers. Small 2-way open
>>>>>>> baffle active speaker based on
>>>>>>> Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover and biamp. Plan
>>>>>>> to use it with a subwoofer so it'll be a mid-bass
>>>>>>> (80 Hz) and tweeter type design.
>>>>>>> I'm looking a Seas and Scanspeak drivers from
>>>>>>> Madisound. Any specific models folks think might be
>>>>>>> appropriate? Other driver manufacturers worth
>>>>>>> considering?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I heard these this weekend. Not bad...
>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/subwoofer.htm
>>>>
>>>>> The Pluto or the sub?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Both, obviously.
>>>>
>>>>> I looked at the Orion
>>>>> quite a bit but want something with low distortion
>>>>> at moderate sound levels.
>>>>
>>>> What makes you think it doesn't fill this requirement?
>>>>
>>>>> The few unbiased (not owners)
>>>>> comments I've read on Orion say it shines
>>>>> at high volumes.
>>
>>>> It would be quite a stretch to think that means that
>>>> the Orion lacks low distortion at moderate sound
>>>> levels. Fact of the matter - normal loudspeakers in
>>>> good working order lack any mechanism that would make
>>>> them perform less well at low levels, than high.
>>
>>> I find that big multi-driver speakers that excel at high
>>> SPL where soundstaging and
>>> imaging in a room aren't usually the objective, don't do
>>> so well at low volumes when soundstage and imaging is a
>>> key performance objective.
>>
>> Are you changing your story?
>
> Clarifying.
>
>>
>>> Their a bit incoherent
>>> and lack the ability to disappear. Closer emulation of
>>> a point or line source seems to be the key.
>>
>> That's irrelevant to the issue you initially brought up
>> - distortion at low levels.

> There are many forms of distortion.

So what, only certain forms of distortion are relevant to speakers.

>> Typical of your dishonesty Scotty - you change your
>> story without explanation or apology for your former
>> errors.

> I'm sorry your life is so lame you need to seek fights on
> usenet to fill it.

Coming from you Scotty, given your incessant OT posting to pick fights with
the usual suspects, this is so pathetic as to not even be funny.

> You have my condolences.

Too bad you don't have a fraction of my interest in audio.

Arny Krueger

May 29th 07, 12:50 PM

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message

> "ScottW" > said:
>
>
>>> I have used a DCX2496 to determine the crossover
>>> frequencies and slopes for my 6-Maggies project.
>>> A nice box, especially considering its price. A little
>>> noisy, though.
>
>
>> Electrically noisy or fan noisy?

> Audible noise in some setups.

No doubt related to people who don't understand how to interface with gear
that was designed for regular audio production signal levels.

> Improvements are possible, especially if you're using the
> unit unbalanced.

Nahh, just learn how to use good equipment as it was intended to be used.

> About half the opamps and associated components can be
> omitted in that case, what;s left can be improved upon by
> using LM4562 opamps and some redesigning of the power
> supply and PCB layout.

Typical tweak nattering.

ScottW

May 29th 07, 05:32 PM

On May 29, 4:47 am, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>
> Too bad you don't have a fraction of my interest in audio.

That's true, my interest peaks at the hobby level.
When it reaches the vendetta level like yours, shoot me.

ScottW

ScottW

May 29th 07, 05:41 PM

On May 28, 3:47 pm, Sander deWaal > wrote:
> "ScottW" > said:
>
> >> I have used a DCX2496 to determine the crossover frequencies and
> >> slopes for my 6-Maggies project.
> >> A nice box, especially considering its price. A little noisy, though.
> >Electrically noisy or fan noisy?
>
> Audible noise in some setups.
>
> Improvements are possible, especially if you're using the unit
> unbalanced.

That would be the case.

> About half the opamps and associated components can be omitted in that
> case, what;s left can be improved upon by using LM4562 opamps and some
> redesigning of the power supply and PCB layout.

Hmmmm, sounds like it would be just as easy to do what you've done.
Built a dedicated active analog crossover.

>
> >> I used the results to make my own analog crossover for the system,
> >> consisting of 4 Maggie panels for the low frequencies and 2 for
> >> mid/high.
> >Active or passive?
>
> The division between low and mid/high is active, between mid and high
> is passive.

So how are you managing the use of surface mount components in your
home applications? Are you socketing them or do you have access to
SMT
solder equipment?

Thanks for your comments Sander, much appreciated.

ScottW

Arny Krueger

May 29th 07, 07:38 PM

"ScottW" > wrote in message
ups.com
> On May 29, 4:47 am, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>
>> Too bad you don't have a fraction of my interest in
>> audio.
>
> That's true, my interest peaks at the hobby level.

No, it does not go a fraction that high.

> When it reaches the vendetta level like yours, shoot me.

You're doing a great job of doing that for yourself Scott, starting with
your feet.

Arny Krueger

May 29th 07, 07:41 PM

"ScottW" > wrote in message
oups.com
> On May 28, 3:47 pm, Sander deWaal >
> wrote:
>> "ScottW" > said:
>>
>>>> I have used a DCX2496 to determine the crossover
>>>> frequencies and slopes for my 6-Maggies project.
>>>> A nice box, especially considering its price. A little
>>>> noisy, though.
>>> Electrically noisy or fan noisy?
>>
>> Audible noise in some setups.
>>
>> Improvements are possible, especially if you're using
>> the unit unbalanced.
>
> That would be the case.

But not necessarily the cause of the problem.

More likely - improper interfacing with consumer-grade equipment.

>> About half the opamps and associated components can be
>> omitted in that case, what;s left can be improved upon
>> by using LM4562 opamps and some redesigning of the power
>> supply and PCB layout.
>
> Hmmmm, sounds like it would be just as easy to do what
> you've done. Built a dedicated active analog crossover.

The idea that replacing existing parts with low-noise op amps will
significantly reduce noise levels in pro gear is another one of those
technological knee-jerks that tends to die on the test bench. Of course, it
can often be verified with sighted evaluations.

George M. Middius

May 29th 07, 08:02 PM

The Big **** is decompressing from a harsh session at chruch™.

> > When it reaches the vendetta level like yours, shoot me.

> You're doing a great job of doing that for yourself Scott, starting with
> your feet.

Arnii, your attempts at humor are even lamer than your IKYABWAIs. You're
beyond pathetic.

--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

May 29th 07, 09:43 PM

On May 29, 2:02Â*pm, George M. Middius <cmndr _ george @ comcast .
net> wrote:
> The Big **** is decompressing from a harsh session at chruchâ„¢.
>
> > > When it reaches the vendetta level like yours, shoot me.
> > You're doing a great job of doing that for yourself Scott, starting with
> > your feet.
>
> Arnii, your attempts at humor are even lamer than your IKYABWAIs. You're
> beyond pathetic.

That was the attempt at a joke?

I thought this was:

"Too bad you don't have a fraction of my interest in audio."

Good old Arns has apparently developed something else to measure.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

May 29th 07, 09:46 PM

On May 29, 1:41 pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> The idea that replacing existing parts with low-noise op amps will
> significantly reduce noise levels in pro gear is another one of those
> technological knee-jerks that tends to die on the test bench. Of course, it
> can often be verified with sighted evaluations.

Of course, nobody wants or cares about your opinion, Arns.

You were gone for a while. Why are you back? Are you getting your ass
handed to you (as usual) on the pro groups?

George M. Middius

May 29th 07, 09:51 PM

Shhhh! said:

> > The Big **** is decompressing from a harsh session at chruch™.

> > > > When it reaches the vendetta level like yours, shoot me.

> > > You're doing a great job of doing that for yourself Scott, starting with
> > > your feet.

> > Arnii, your attempts at humor are even lamer than your IKYABWAIs. You're
> > beyond pathetic.

> That was the attempt at a joke?

Not a joke, if you ask me. I'd call it a dumbcrack.

> I thought this was:
> "Too bad you don't have a fraction of my interest in audio."
> Good old Arns has apparently developed something else to measure.

Good point to bring out, on LOt"S. Without stuff to measure, nothing
separates us from evolutionary dead-ends like, say, the man-eating
echidna of Polynesia.

--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

Clyde Slick

May 30th 07, 12:14 AM

Arny Krueger a scris:

>
> Too bad you don't have a fraction of my interest in audio.

Settle down, Arny.
I spent all of yesterday at Scott's house. We spent all that time
discussing the intracacies of the design of the Horizon ashtrays.

Clyde Slick

June 1st 07, 03:06 AM