TRS vs TS

[Nil]

Bedroom recordist here...

I need some patch cables to connect my various gizmos to a Behringer
patchbay. The Behringer only does unbalanced connections.

Can I use balanced TRS cables for this purpose? I find lots of suitable
ones for sale on eBay and elsewhere, but short TS cables seem rarer.

[Richard Crowley]

"Nil" wrote ...
> Bedroom recordist here...
>
> I need some patch cables to connect my various gizmos to a Behringer
> patchbay. The Behringer only does unbalanced connections.
>
> Can I use balanced TRS cables for this purpose? I find lots of
> suitable
> ones for sale on eBay and elsewhere, but short TS cables seem rarer.

Yes, if they are wired properly (tip to tip, ring to ring, etc.)
then they will work. Good luck with an unbalanced patch-
bay.

[Todd H.]

Nil > writes:

> Bedroom recordist here...
>
> I need some patch cables to connect my various gizmos to a Behringer
> patchbay. The Behringer only does unbalanced connections.
>
> Can I use balanced TRS cables for this purpose? I find lots of suitable
> ones for sale on eBay and elsewhere, but short TS cables seem rarer.

What length are you lookin for? If you're searching on patch cable,
yeah those are almost by definition balanced, but if TS is what you
seek, instrument cable is perhaps a more common search hit. Try these
links:


Various lengths including 1', 2', 3', 5' from a reliable supplier out
of Dayton:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&CAT_ID=56&ObjectGroup_ID=77&SO=2

6" patches from Carvin that look kinda weenie, but prolly ok
http://carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=SH66&CID=M/S/C

3' guitar cord (guitar cords are TS)--I have a few of these from them
and they seem to work just fine:
http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=PRO3P&CID=ACC

I imagine others have their own favorite suppliers for these,
including the "make your own" camp that uses bulk wire and purchased
ends. I used to have the time to do that, and if you're shorter on
money than you are on time it's the way to go that's for sure.

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
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X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
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[Nil]

On 14 Apr 2007, (Todd H.) wrote in
alt.music.home-studio:

> What length are you lookin for? If you're searching on patch
> cable, yeah those are almost by definition balanced, but if TS is
> what you seek, instrument cable is perhaps a more common search
> hit. Try these links:

I bought a box of 3' molded guitar-type cables about 20 years ago, and
they are still working fine, so I'm looking for more of the same. I see
similar ones on eBay, but they are 1' or 2'. Most of the 3' ones are
TRS. That's why I wondered if they can be used for unbalanced
applications. Can I take your answer as a "yes"?

I'll check out the sources you mentioned. They are a bit less expensive
than I thought they would be, and they certainly look more rugged than
the ones I have.

I used to make most of my guitar cables and patch cables, but the ends
are too expensive unless you buy them in too-large-for-me quantities.
Plus, making them is a bore.

[Nil]

On 14 Apr 2007, "Richard Crowley" > wrote in
alt.music.home-studio:

> Yes, if they are wired properly (tip to tip, ring to ring, etc.)
> then they will work. Good luck with an unbalanced patch-
> bay.

Oh, good, that expands my options. Thanks.

[Todd H.]

Nil > writes:

> On 14 Apr 2007, (Todd H.) wrote in
> alt.music.home-studio:
>
> > What length are you lookin for? If you're searching on patch
> > cable, yeah those are almost by definition balanced, but if TS is
> > what you seek, instrument cable is perhaps a more common search
> > hit. Try these links:
>
> I bought a box of 3' molded guitar-type cables about 20 years ago, and
> they are still working fine, so I'm looking for more of the same. I see
> similar ones on eBay, but they are 1' or 2'. Most of the 3' ones are
> TRS. That's why I wondered if they can be used for unbalanced
> applications. Can I take your answer as a "yes"?

I'm not so quick to jump on that bandwagon. I haven't tried it, and
don't know the design specs but I worry about the the ring contact on
one end perhaps hitting the sleeve on one end of the cable, then some
other manufacturer's ring contact perhaps hitting the ring on the
other end or making half assed contact beteen the ring and the
sleeve. These concerns may be unfounded, but they would be enough to
give me pause before buying a bunch of TRS patch cables for the
application you describe.

> I used to make most of my guitar cables and patch cables, but the ends
> are too expensive unless you buy them in too-large-for-me quantities.
> Plus, making them is a bore.

Agreed on both counts.


--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband

[Richard Crowley]

"Todd H." wrote ...
> I'm not so quick to jump on that bandwagon. I haven't tried it, and
> don't know the design specs but I worry about the the ring contact on
> one end perhaps hitting the sleeve on one end of the cable, then some
> other manufacturer's ring contact perhaps hitting the ring on the
> other end or making half assed contact beteen the ring and the
> sleeve. These concerns may be unfounded, but they would be enough to
> give me pause before buying a bunch of TRS patch cables for the
> application you describe.

I suppose it is possible that with some TS jacks that the
sleeve and ring could end up both contacting the ground
side.

But it would have to be an extremely sloppy and poorly-
designed jack for the tip and sleve to get connected
together.

Now remember that the plugs on either end of the
cable will be identical (since he is considering store-
bought, moulded cables), and furthermore, the jacks on
each end will also be identical (in the patch-bay). So I'd
wager that chances of a problem of this kind are extremely
remote.

OTOH, iIf he were talking about random interconnects,
then I would share your concern about possible problems.

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 15, 12:41 am, (Todd H.) wrote:

> I worry about the the ring contact on
> one end perhaps hitting the sleeve on one end of the cable, then some
> other manufacturer's ring contact perhaps hitting the ring on the
> other end or making half assed contact beteen the ring and the
> sleeve.

There are standards and tolerances for 1/4" phone plugs. Some of the
imported crap tends to be a bit on the sloppy side, but I haven't yet
run into anything that's so grossly off the nominal dimensions that it
would cause an incorrect wiring connection.

The worst thing that could happen is if the source had a transformer
balanced output and the destination had an unbalanced input. By using
a TRS cable to connect them, you'd have the tip connecting one side of
the transformer to the input (which is correct). But unless the input
was "faking" a balanced connection by using a TRS jack with the ring
connected to ground (and some gear is indeed built like this to make
it more idiot proof if someone tries a stunt like this), the other
side of the transformer would go nowhere. The only signal that would
get to the destination would be through capacitive coupling between
the transformer and ground - weak and with no low frequencies.

By the way, for those reading this thread in rec.audio.pro, this is a
good example of the "passing knowledge of audio" to which John
Watkinson was referring in the "Quote worth quoting" thread I started
a couple of days ago.

[Scott Dorsey]

If you use a TRS patchcord to plug a TS jack into a TS jack, everything is
fine. Tip goes to tip and sleeve goes to sleeve.

If you use a TRS patchcord to plug a TS jack into a TRS jack, however, the
tip is run to tip, sleeve to sleeve, and the ring is left floating. If
there is a transformer input or output involved this will prevent any signal
flow.

On the OTHER hand, if you use a TS patchcord into a TRS jack, the ring is
shunted to ground (because the pin on the jack touches the sleeve of the
plug).
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[David[_3_]]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> If you use a TRS patchcord to plug a TS jack into a TS jack, everything is
> fine. Tip goes to tip and sleeve goes to sleeve.
>
> If you use a TRS patchcord to plug a TS jack into a TRS jack, however, the
> tip is run to tip, sleeve to sleeve, and the ring is left floating. If
> there is a transformer input or output involved this will prevent any
> signal
> flow.
>
> On the OTHER hand, if you use a TS patchcord into a TRS jack, the ring is
> shunted to ground (because the pin on the jack touches the sleeve of the
> plug).
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I have seen this exact situation with a direct box. The direct box has a TRS
jack and expects the R and S to be shorted by the TS plug when an unbalanced
signal is applied. If a TRS cable is used the R is left floating. For those
situations I have a TRS plug with no cable on it with the R and S shorted
that I plug into the bridging jack which is just internally in parallel with
the main input jack.

David

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 15, 11:07 am, "David" > wrote:

> I have seen this exact situation with a direct box. The direct box has a TRS
> jack and expects the R and S to be shorted by the TS plug when an unbalanced
> signal is applied.

The normal input to a direct box is a guitar, which, with a few rare
exceptions, is unbalanced. It's not uncommon, however, to use a TRS
jack on an active direct box that has an internal battery. The
negative side of the battery is connected to the ring terminal of the
jack rather than directly to ground. When the guitar is unplugged, the
battery is disconnected from the circuit, the circuit is switched off,
and the battery doesn't drain. When you insert a TS plug, the ring
connects the negative battery lead to ground, which turns on the
power. It's like a free power switch (as long as you remember to
unplug your guitar when you're through playing.

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Rivers" wrote...
> The normal input to a direct box is a guitar, which, with a few rare
> exceptions, is unbalanced. It's not uncommon, however, to use a TRS
> jack on an active direct box that has an internal battery. The
> negative side of the battery is connected to the ring terminal of the
> jack rather than directly to ground. When the guitar is unplugged, the
> battery is disconnected from the circuit, the circuit is switched off,
> and the battery doesn't drain. When you insert a TS plug, the ring
> connects the negative battery lead to ground, which turns on the
> power. It's like a free power switch (as long as you remember to
> unplug your guitar when you're through playing.

Although I've always been troubled by the spike caused
as the tip brushes past the ring terminal when you
connect and disconnect.

But perhaps they figure that 9V into ~1M-ohm isn't
worth worrying about?