Why do people put speakers on bass drums?

[philicorda[_2_]]

Some stuff I've mixed had an extra bass drum track marked 'bd ns10' which
sounded like a dull 'plomp'.

I think it's a Yamaha NS10 in front on the kick. I've also heard of other
people doing this, and that there is even a dedicated kick drum 'speaker
mic' you can buy.

Umm, what's it for? I tried mixing it with the main d112 kick mic in
various ways, but did not hear any benefit from it.
Do people normally eq it severely or compress it really hard or something?
I guess I don't know what effect the engineer was trying to get.

Putting other mics outside the kick has done it for me sometimes, but why
use a speaker instead of a condenser mic?

[Steve King]

"philicorda" > wrote in
message ...
> Some stuff I've mixed had an extra bass drum track marked 'bd ns10' which
> sounded like a dull 'plomp'.
>
> I think it's a Yamaha NS10 in front on the kick. I've also heard of other
> people doing this, and that there is even a dedicated kick drum 'speaker
> mic' you can buy.
>
> Umm, what's it for? I tried mixing it with the main d112 kick mic in
> various ways, but did not hear any benefit from it.
> Do people normally eq it severely or compress it really hard or something?
> I guess I don't know what effect the engineer was trying to get.
>
> Putting other mics outside the kick has done it for me sometimes, but why
> use a speaker instead of a condenser mic?

Some people like the restricted dynamic response of the speaker.

Steve King

[Deputy Dumbya Dawg[_2_]]

: > Some stuff I've mixed had an extra bass drum track
marked 'bd ns10' which
: > sounded like a dull 'plomp'.
: >
: > I think it's a Yamaha NS10 in front on the kick.
I've also heard of other
: > people doing this, and that there is even a
dedicated kick drum 'speaker
: > mic' you can buy.
: >
: > Umm, what's it for? I tried mixing it with the main
d112 kick mic in
: > various ways, but did not hear any benefit from it.


I use a 5" focal kevlar woofer screwed to a mic stand
in addition to my D112 on the kick. If positioned
correctly it gives a nice whap to the d112 different
from what I can make the d112 do on its own. It seems
to work best when at a slight angle from parallel with
the head.

Why? Why not! I could use condensers too if that gets
the sound I want.

peace
dawg.

[Scott Dorsey]

philicorda > wrote:
>Some stuff I've mixed had an extra bass drum track marked 'bd ns10' which
>sounded like a dull 'plomp'.
>
>I think it's a Yamaha NS10 in front on the kick. I've also heard of other
>people doing this, and that there is even a dedicated kick drum 'speaker
>mic' you can buy.

People do this with _smaller_ speakers in order to get some high end stuff
that adds definition to the drums. The NS-10 doesn't sound like a good
choice... you want a smaller speaker with even less low end, like a 3"
transistor radio speaker.

>Umm, what's it for? I tried mixing it with the main d112 kick mic in
>various ways, but did not hear any benefit from it.

Don't use it, then.

>Do people normally eq it severely or compress it really hard or something?
>I guess I don't know what effect the engineer was trying to get.

Johnny V. says that my 3" transistor radio speaker "sounds like a goddamn
ping pong ball" and won't have it anywhere near his mixes. I like it,
because it makes for a kick drum mix that comes across better on small
speakers with restricted low end.

>Putting other mics outside the kick has done it for me sometimes, but why
>use a speaker instead of a condenser mic?

Because it breaks up and distorts, and most of the traditional rock
closed-kick drum sound actually comes from microphone breakup than the
drum itself. Put a B&K lab mike or something else accurate at high
pressures in there, and it sounds awful because it's all low frequency
thud with no harmonics. The mike is where the harmonics come from.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[philicorda[_2_]]

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 19:43:30 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> philicorda > wrote:
>>Some stuff I've mixed had an extra bass drum track marked 'bd ns10' which
>>sounded like a dull 'plomp'.
>>
>>I think it's a Yamaha NS10 in front on the kick. I've also heard of other
>>people doing this, and that there is even a dedicated kick drum 'speaker
>>mic' you can buy.
>
> People do this with _smaller_ speakers in order to get some high end stuff
> that adds definition to the drums. The NS-10 doesn't sound like a good
> choice... you want a smaller speaker with even less low end, like a 3"
> transistor radio speaker.

I see. The crossover in the NS10 is probably doing all kinds of strange
things too.

>
>>Umm, what's it for? I tried mixing it with the main d112 kick mic in
>>various ways, but did not hear any benefit from it.
>
> Don't use it, then.
>
>>Do people normally eq it severely or compress it really hard or something?
>>I guess I don't know what effect the engineer was trying to get.
>
> Johnny V. says that my 3" transistor radio speaker "sounds like a goddamn
> ping pong ball" and won't have it anywhere near his mixes. I like it,
> because it makes for a kick drum mix that comes across better on small
> speakers with restricted low end.

Aha, now this is interesting, as making kick drums audible on little
speakers is something I find tricky.

Do you mount the speaker in a little box to give it more interesting
resonance, or is it just hanging in the air? Do you use a matching
transformer to raise the impedance?

>
>>Putting other mics outside the kick has done it for me sometimes, but why
>>use a speaker instead of a condenser mic?
>
> Because it breaks up and distorts, and most of the traditional rock
> closed-kick drum sound actually comes from microphone breakup than the
> drum itself. Put a B&K lab mike or something else accurate at high
> pressures in there, and it sounds awful because it's all low frequency
> thud with no harmonics. The mike is where the harmonics come from.

I'd had the idea people did it to get more low end or something, but
using it to get some useful filth into the sound makes more sense.

> --scott

[philicorda[_2_]]

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 20:44:01 +0000, Deputy Dumbya Dawg wrote:

> : > Some stuff I've mixed had an extra bass drum track
> marked 'bd ns10' which
> : > sounded like a dull 'plomp'.
> : >
> : > I think it's a Yamaha NS10 in front on the kick.
> I've also heard of other
> : > people doing this, and that there is even a
> dedicated kick drum 'speaker
> : > mic' you can buy.
> : >
> : > Umm, what's it for? I tried mixing it with the main
> d112 kick mic in
> : > various ways, but did not hear any benefit from it.
>
>
> I use a 5" focal kevlar woofer screwed to a mic stand
> in addition to my D112 on the kick. If positioned
> correctly it gives a nice whap to the d112 different
> from what I can make the d112 do on its own. It seems
> to work best when at a slight angle from parallel with
> the head.

Is that speaker just hanging in the air without a box?

I have sometimes played around with putting one of my really horrible
(three for a pound) dynamic vocal mics on the kick, which gives a sort of
'pock' sound.... From the replies so far it would appear that using
smaller speakers is a bit like this but more useful, with some low end and
even more harmonics.

>
> Why? Why not! I could use condensers too if that gets
> the sound I want.
>
> peace
> dawg.

[Ben - TheStudioRI.com]

>
> I'd had the idea people did it to get more low end or something, but
> using it to get some useful filth into the sound makes more sense.
>
>
>
> > --scott- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


well, you could always try a bigger speaker, like a 12 or 15 and see
if it gives you a more "extended" low end. I've never actually tried
it, but I often use a condenser outside the kick in addition to a
dynamic (like a 421) inside.

-Ben

[Scott Dorsey]

philicorda > wrote:
>
>Aha, now this is interesting, as making kick drums audible on little
>speakers is something I find tricky.
>
>Do you mount the speaker in a little box to give it more interesting
>resonance, or is it just hanging in the air? Do you use a matching
>transformer to raise the impedance?

I like to use 45 ohm intercom speakers in a little project box, maybe
ten cubic inches or so. If you put it in a larger box, the tone gets
deeper. If you use an 8-ohm speaker, a step-up transformer might be
a good idea and the output transformer from the old transistor radio
you got the speaker from would work fine if wired in reverse.

But the intercom speakers are five bucks at your local Quam dealer.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Deputy Dumbya Dawg[_2_]]

"philicorda"
> wrote
in message
...
:
: Do you mount the speaker in a little box to give it
more interesting
: resonance, or is it just hanging in the air? Do you
use a matching
: transformer to raise the impedance?

my 5 incher is in free air and I just put the VC into a
mic preamp.

peace
dawg

[Deputy Dumbya Dawg[_2_]]

"philicorda"
> wrote
in message
...
: > I use a 5" focal kevlar woofer screwed to a mic
stand
: > in addition to my D112 on the kick. If positioned
: > correctly it gives a nice whap to the d112
different
: > from what I can make the d112 do on its own. It
seems
: > to work best when at a slight angle from parallel
with
: > the head.
:
: Is that speaker just hanging in the air without a
box?
:
: Yes. I screwed one of those silver male to female mic
stand adaptors that comes on the "on-stage" mic stands,
right to the basket and stick the driver on a short mic
stand.

peace
dawg

[Ian Bell]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> People do this with _smaller_ speakers in order to get some high end stuff
> that adds definition to the drums. The NS-10 doesn't sound like a good
> choice... you want a smaller speaker with even less low end, like a 3"
> transistor radio speaker.
>

I think they have done it with big ones too. ISTR a description in Recording
The Beatles about a couple of tracks that used a 15 inch speaker as a mic
on Paul's bass.

Ian

[darrelldklein]

On Apr 7, 6:19 pm, Ian Bell > wrote:
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> > People do this with _smaller_ speakers in order to get some high end stuff
> > that adds definition to the drums. The NS-10 doesn't sound like a good
> > choice... you want a smaller speaker with even less low end, like a 3"
> > transistor radio speaker.
>
> I think they have done it with big ones too. ISTR a description in Recording
> The Beatles about a couple of tracks that used a 15 inch speaker as a mic
> on Paul's bass.
>
> Ian

I have tried a 15" CTS cab right in front of the kick and in front of
the bass guitar too. I also have a pair of 3 inch peakers permanaently
inside the studio kick drum. In both instances I run to output
straight to preamp.

My advice to everyone is just to try it and see if you can use the
sound.

[darrelldklein]

On Apr 8, 11:19 am, "darrelldklein" > wrote:
> On Apr 7, 6:19 pm, Ian Bell > wrote:
>
> > Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> > > People do this with _smaller_ speakers in order to get some high end stuff
> > > that adds definition to the drums. The NS-10 doesn't sound like a good
> > > choice... you want a smaller speaker with even less low end, like a 3"
> > > transistor radio speaker.
>
> > I think they have done it with big ones too. ISTR a description in Recording
> > The Beatles about a couple of tracks that used a 15 inch speaker as a mic
> > on Paul's bass.
>
> > Ian
>
> I have tried a 15" CTS cab right in front of the kick and in front of
> the bass guitar too. I also have a pair of 3 inch peakers permanaently
> inside the studio kick drum. In both instances I run to output
> straight to preamp.
>
> My advice to everyone is just to try it and see if you can use the
> sound.

Spelling impaired this a.m. I used speakers, not peakers, and they are
set up and left in place. I don't know what "permanaently" means. Also
I run "the" output, not run to output. I am going back to bed now.

[Deputy Dumbya Dawg[_4_]]

BTW: Reading Geoff Emerick's My life recording the Beatles,
this was another creation of his; although he talks about
doing it with a speaker in a cabinet and on Sir Pauls bass
amp.


peace
dawg

[Laurence Payne]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 03:28:20 GMT, "Deputy Dumbya Dawg"
> wrote:

>BTW: Reading Geoff Emerick's My life recording the Beatles,
>this was another creation of his; although he talks about
>doing it with a speaker in a cabinet and on Sir Pauls bass
>amp.

I think he became "Sir Paul" rather later :-)

Just been reading this book, alongside George Martin's "All You Need
Is Ears". Both contain fascinating information, both should have
hired a better ghost-writer.

[Fletch]

On Apr 8, 9:19 am, "darrelldklein" > wrote:
> On Apr 7, 6:19 pm, Ian Bell > wrote:
>
> > Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> > > People do this with _smaller_ speakers in order to get some high end stuff
> > > that adds definition to the drums. The NS-10 doesn't sound like a good
> > > choice... you want a smaller speaker with even less low end, like a 3"
> > > transistor radio speaker.
>
> > I think they have done it with big ones too. ISTR a description in Recording
> > The Beatles about a couple of tracks that used a 15 inch speaker as a mic
> > on Paul's bass.
>
> > Ian
>
> I have tried a 15" CTS cab right in front of the kick and in front of
> the bass guitar too. I also have a pair of 3 inch peakers permanaently
> inside the studio kick drum. In both instances I run to output
> straight to preamp.
>
> My advice to everyone is just to try it and see if you can use the
> sound.


Okay, I've never employed this technique, nor been witness to it's
use.

So you're saying you simply plug the speaker into the pream, using the
transducer as a microphone (which I get) and then record that sound.
Am I understanding this correctly?

--Fletch

[Deputy Dumbya Dawg[_4_]]

"Fletch" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Okay, I've never employed this technique, nor been witness
> to it's
> use.
>
> So you're saying you simply plug the speaker into the pream,
> using the
> transducer as a microphone (which I get) and then record
> that sound.
> Am I understanding this correctly?
>
> --Fletch
>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Fletch" >
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Why do people put speakers on bass drums?


> On Apr 8, 9:19 am, "darrelldklein" >
> wrote:
>> On Apr 7, 6:19 pm, Ian Bell >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> > > People do this with _smaller_ speakers in order to get
>> > > some high end stuff
>> > > that adds definition to the drums. The NS-10 doesn't
>> > > sound like a good
>> > > choice... you want a smaller speaker with even less low
>> > > end, like a 3"
>> > > transistor radio speaker.
>>
>> > I think they have done it with big ones too. ISTR a
>> > description in Recording
>> > The Beatles about a couple of tracks that used a 15 inch
>> > speaker as a mic
>> > on Paul's bass.
>>
>> > Ian
>>
>> I have tried a 15" CTS cab right in front of the kick and
>> in front of
>> the bass guitar too. I also have a pair of 3 inch speakers
>> permanently
>> inside the studio kick drum. In both instances I run to
>> output
>> straight to preamp.
>>
>> My advice to everyone is just to try it and see if you can
>> use the
>> sound.
>
>
> Okay, I've never employed this technique, nor been witness
> to it's
> use.
>
> So you're saying you simply plug the speaker into the
> preamp, using the
> transducer as a microphone (which I get) and then record
> that sound.
> Am I understanding this correctly?
>
> --Fletch

Yep you got it Fletch. Mix it with your kick mic and see if
you can use it. I leave my 5" Focal driver in the drum and
record it along with a D112 for standard capture.

peace
dawg

[Fletch]

On Jun 1, 2:20 pm, "Deputy Dumbya Dawg"
> wrote:
> "Fletch" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
> > Okay, I've never employed this technique, nor been witness
> > to it's
> > use.
>
> > So you're saying you simply plug the speaker into the pream,
> > using the
> > transducer as a microphone (which I get) and then record
> > that sound.
> > Am I understanding this correctly?
>
> > --Fletch
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fletch" >
>
> Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 3:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Why do people put speakers on bass drums?
>
> > On Apr 8, 9:19 am, "darrelldklein" >
> > wrote:
> >> On Apr 7, 6:19 pm, Ian Bell >
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> >> > > People do this with _smaller_ speakers in order to get
> >> > > some high end stuff
> >> > > that adds definition to the drums. The NS-10 doesn't
> >> > > sound like a good
> >> > > choice... you want a smaller speaker with even less low
> >> > > end, like a 3"
> >> > > transistor radio speaker.
>
> >> > I think they have done it with big ones too. ISTR a
> >> > description in Recording
> >> > The Beatles about a couple of tracks that used a 15 inch
> >> > speaker as a mic
> >> > on Paul's bass.
>
> >> > Ian
>
> >> I have tried a 15" CTS cab right in front of the kick and
> >> in front of
> >> the bass guitar too. I also have a pair of 3 inch speakers
> >> permanently
> >> inside the studio kick drum. In both instances I run to
> >> output
> >> straight to preamp.
>
> >> My advice to everyone is just to try it and see if you can
> >> use the
> >> sound.
>
> > Okay, I've never employed this technique, nor been witness
> > to it's
> > use.
>
> > So you're saying you simply plug the speaker into the
> > preamp, using the
> > transducer as a microphone (which I get) and then record
> > that sound.
> > Am I understanding this correctly?
>
> > --Fletch
>
> Yep you got it Fletch. Mix it with your kick mic and see if
> you can use it. I leave my 5" Focal driver in the drum and
> record it along with a D112 for standard capture.
>
> peace
> dawg


Very cool. I will definitely give this a workout on the next session I
engineer!

Thanks!

--Fletch

[Raw-Tracks]

Fletch wrote:
> Very cool. I will definitely give this a workout on the next session I
> engineer!

If you're interested, here is a clip from a track I recorded with a raw
NS10 woofer in front of a kick:
http://www.raw-tracks.com/NS10_Kick.mp3

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

[Don Pearce]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 04:03:00 GMT, Raw-Tracks >
wrote:

>Fletch wrote:
>> Very cool. I will definitely give this a workout on the next session I
>> engineer!
>
>If you're interested, here is a clip from a track I recorded with a raw
>NS10 woofer in front of a kick:
>http://www.raw-tracks.com/NS10_Kick.mp3

That certainly catches the low end nicely. Do you have a quick and
easy way to bring in a normal mic to pick up the transient of the
beater, though?

And I have to wonder, a normal mic will operate at these frequencies
(just over 40Hz is the main area here) equally well. What does the
speaker actually bring to the party?

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Raw-Tracks]

Don Pearce wrote:

> That certainly catches the low end nicely. Do you have a quick and
> easy way to bring in a normal mic to pick up the transient of the
> beater, though?

I'm not sure I follow your question. I use another mic inside the kick
as well. D112, Beta52, etc. I blend the 2 together to get the sound I'm
after.

> And I have to wonder, a normal mic will operate at these frequencies
> (just over 40Hz is the main area here) equally well. What does the
> speaker actually bring to the party?

Are asking why I use a speaker on the outside as opposed to a "normal
mic"? I almost always use 2 mics, or 1 mic and the speaker when
recording kick. The inside mic does not capture low end quite like the
outside mic. I think using the speaker on the outside instead of another
mic works well because the speaker is just giving me the "boom" I'm
looking for, and not a lot of anything else.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

[Don Pearce]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:20:32 GMT, Raw-Tracks >
wrote:

>Don Pearce wrote:
>
>> That certainly catches the low end nicely. Do you have a quick and
>> easy way to bring in a normal mic to pick up the transient of the
>> beater, though?
>
>I'm not sure I follow your question. I use another mic inside the kick
>as well. D112, Beta52, etc. I blend the 2 together to get the sound I'm
>after.
>
Yup - that was the answer I was looking for.

>> And I have to wonder, a normal mic will operate at these frequencies
>> (just over 40Hz is the main area here) equally well. What does the
>> speaker actually bring to the party?
>
>Are asking why I use a speaker on the outside as opposed to a "normal
>mic"? I almost always use 2 mics, or 1 mic and the speaker when
>recording kick. The inside mic does not capture low end quite like the
>outside mic. I think using the speaker on the outside instead of another
>mic works well because the speaker is just giving me the "boom" I'm
>looking for, and not a lot of anything else.

OK

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Don Pearce > wrote:
>On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 04:03:00 GMT, Raw-Tracks >
>wrote:
>
>>Fletch wrote:
>>> Very cool. I will definitely give this a workout on the next session I
>>> engineer!
>>
>>If you're interested, here is a clip from a track I recorded with a raw
>>NS10 woofer in front of a kick:
>>http://www.raw-tracks.com/NS10_Kick.mp3
>
>That certainly catches the low end nicely. Do you have a quick and
>easy way to bring in a normal mic to pick up the transient of the
>beater, though?
>
>And I have to wonder, a normal mic will operate at these frequencies
>(just over 40Hz is the main area here) equally well. What does the
>speaker actually bring to the party?

Interesting breakup modes that add definition to the kick drum sound.

Try putting a B&K measurement mike in an open kick drum. All you get is
a dull thudding sound. Most of the actual sound of an open kick comes
from the microphone overload characteristics rather than the drum itself.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Don Pearce]

On 4 Jun 2007 09:58:49 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Don Pearce > wrote:
>>On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 04:03:00 GMT, Raw-Tracks >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Fletch wrote:
>>>> Very cool. I will definitely give this a workout on the next session I
>>>> engineer!
>>>
>>>If you're interested, here is a clip from a track I recorded with a raw
>>>NS10 woofer in front of a kick:
>>>http://www.raw-tracks.com/NS10_Kick.mp3
>>
>>That certainly catches the low end nicely. Do you have a quick and
>>easy way to bring in a normal mic to pick up the transient of the
>>beater, though?
>>
>>And I have to wonder, a normal mic will operate at these frequencies
>>(just over 40Hz is the main area here) equally well. What does the
>>speaker actually bring to the party?
>
>Interesting breakup modes that add definition to the kick drum sound.
>
>Try putting a B&K measurement mike in an open kick drum. All you get is
>a dull thudding sound. Most of the actual sound of an open kick comes
>from the microphone overload characteristics rather than the drum itself.
>--scott

Ah - special effects rather than recording. Fair enough.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Don Pearce > wrote:
>On 4 Jun 2007 09:58:49 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>Interesting breakup modes that add definition to the kick drum sound.
>>
>>Try putting a B&K measurement mike in an open kick drum. All you get is
>>a dull thudding sound. Most of the actual sound of an open kick comes
>>from the microphone overload characteristics rather than the drum itself.
>
>Ah - special effects rather than recording. Fair enough.

Not really.... you have to think of the microphone as being part of the
instrument in this case. The sound comes from the mike, so it really
is part of the drum.

The nice thing about the small speaker trick is that it gives you lots of
interesting lower midrange harmonics. This gives you a kind of
snappy kick drum sound that comes across well on cheap transistor radios
that don't have any low end to speak of.

Back in the sixties and seventies, a lot of listeners were using
pocket radios or small AA5 desktop radios, and it was important to
get a sound that would come across well on that. I think that is
less important now than it used to be, but some people still like
the sound.

Johnny V. says that my 45 ohm intercom speaker makes the kick drum
"sound like a goddamn ping pong ball" but even he has to admit that
it comes across really well on Auratones!
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Don Pearce]

On 4 Jun 2007 10:30:09 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Don Pearce > wrote:
>>On 4 Jun 2007 09:58:49 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>
>>>Interesting breakup modes that add definition to the kick drum sound.
>>>
>>>Try putting a B&K measurement mike in an open kick drum. All you get is
>>>a dull thudding sound. Most of the actual sound of an open kick comes
>>>from the microphone overload characteristics rather than the drum itself.
>>
>>Ah - special effects rather than recording. Fair enough.
>
>Not really.... you have to think of the microphone as being part of the
>instrument in this case. The sound comes from the mike, so it really
>is part of the drum.
>
I suppose that is a way of viewing it, but a drum isn't an electronic
instrument - it ends at the head. Whatever you do after that to make a
nice sound is a recording chain effect.

>The nice thing about the small speaker trick is that it gives you lots of
>interesting lower midrange harmonics. This gives you a kind of
>snappy kick drum sound that comes across well on cheap transistor radios
>that don't have any low end to speak of.
>
>Back in the sixties and seventies, a lot of listeners were using
>pocket radios or small AA5 desktop radios, and it was important to
>get a sound that would come across well on that. I think that is
>less important now than it used to be, but some people still like
>the sound.
>
But the speaker (looking at that sample file) can make no contribution
to the sound on a small radio; its useful output has finished long
before you get into the range such a radio can reproduce.

>Johnny V. says that my 45 ohm intercom speaker makes the kick drum
>"sound like a goddamn ping pong ball" but even he has to admit that
>it comes across really well on Auratones!
>--scott

How about different versions for different repro methods? Could be a
profit in that.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Don Pearce > wrote:
>On 4 Jun 2007 10:30:09 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>Back in the sixties and seventies, a lot of listeners were using
>>pocket radios or small AA5 desktop radios, and it was important to
>>get a sound that would come across well on that. I think that is
>>less important now than it used to be, but some people still like
>>the sound.
>>
>But the speaker (looking at that sample file) can make no contribution
>to the sound on a small radio; its useful output has finished long
>before you get into the range such a radio can reproduce.

In that case, you need to use a smaller speaker that has more higher
frequency break-up modes. The classic example has been to use the
4-inch intercom speaker. if you use a bigger speaker, you lose all
the higher frequency trash.

>>Johnny V. says that my 45 ohm intercom speaker makes the kick drum
>>"sound like a goddamn ping pong ball" but even he has to admit that
>>it comes across really well on Auratones!
>
>How about different versions for different repro methods? Could be a
>profit in that.

SPECIAL HEADPHONE REMIX!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Don Pearce]

On 4 Jun 2007 12:06:54 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Don Pearce > wrote:
>>On 4 Jun 2007 10:30:09 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>
>>>Back in the sixties and seventies, a lot of listeners were using
>>>pocket radios or small AA5 desktop radios, and it was important to
>>>get a sound that would come across well on that. I think that is
>>>less important now than it used to be, but some people still like
>>>the sound.
>>>
>>But the speaker (looking at that sample file) can make no contribution
>>to the sound on a small radio; its useful output has finished long
>>before you get into the range such a radio can reproduce.
>
>In that case, you need to use a smaller speaker that has more higher
>frequency break-up modes. The classic example has been to use the
>4-inch intercom speaker. if you use a bigger speaker, you lose all
>the higher frequency trash.
>
>>>Johnny V. says that my 45 ohm intercom speaker makes the kick drum
>>>"sound like a goddamn ping pong ball" but even he has to admit that
>>>it comes across really well on Auratones!
>>
>>How about different versions for different repro methods? Could be a
>>profit in that.
>
>SPECIAL HEADPHONE REMIX!

Would this suit my old headphones that came out of a Lancaster bomber,
do you think?

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Laurence Payne]

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:04:53 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

>
>Ah - special effects rather than recording. Fair enough.

Not really. Unless you count the amp etc. as a "Special Effect"
applied to that rather unresponsive plank of wood which is an electric
guitar. Or you think a vocal mic is a "Special Effect" on a
non-operatic voice. It's part-and-parcel of some styles.

[Chevdo]

In article >, says...
>
>Don Pearce > wrote:
>>On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 04:03:00 GMT, Raw-Tracks >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Fletch wrote:
>>>> Very cool. I will definitely give this a workout on the next session I
>>>> engineer!
>>>
>>>If you're interested, here is a clip from a track I recorded with a raw
>>>NS10 woofer in front of a kick:
>>>http://www.raw-tracks.com/NS10_Kick.mp3
>>
>>That certainly catches the low end nicely. Do you have a quick and
>>easy way to bring in a normal mic to pick up the transient of the
>>beater, though?
>>
>>And I have to wonder, a normal mic will operate at these frequencies
>>(just over 40Hz is the main area here) equally well. What does the
>>speaker actually bring to the party?
>
>Interesting breakup modes that add definition to the kick drum sound.
>
>Try putting a B&K measurement mike in an open kick drum. All you get is
>a dull thudding sound. Most of the actual sound of an open kick comes
>from the microphone overload characteristics rather than the drum itself.
>

What the hell are you talking about? Kick drums sound like kick drums to my
ears pretty much the same live or recorded, if recorded well. 'Microphone
overload charactaristics' is BS.

"Bull****ters hate Wikipedia" - Chevdo's t-shirt

[Don Pearce]

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:51:46 +0100, Laurence Payne
<lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom> wrote:

>On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:04:53 GMT, (Don Pearce)
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Ah - special effects rather than recording. Fair enough.
>
>Not really. Unless you count the amp etc. as a "Special Effect"
>applied to that rather unresponsive plank of wood which is an electric
>guitar. Or you think a vocal mic is a "Special Effect" on a
>non-operatic voice. It's part-and-parcel of some styles.

Anything that happens before the sound comes out into the room I will
happily consider as part of the instrument. What happens during
recording (and can't be heard in the room) is a recording effect.

Recording guitar with DI blurs the interface.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[drichard]

Hi Scott,

If the purpose of the speaker is to add harmonic distortion, couldn't
a person do this in a more controlled manner during the mix using a
distortion plugin, or an FX box? If preferred, it could be applied
using a low-pass filter on the effect.

What does the speaker give you that the FX method won't?

Dean


On Apr 7, 2:43 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> philicorda > wrote:
>
> >Aha, now this is interesting, as making kick drums audible on little
> >speakers is something I find tricky.
>
> >Do you mount the speaker in a little box to give it more interesting
> >resonance, or is it just hanging in the air? Do you use a matching
> >transformer to raise the impedance?
>
> I like to use 45 ohm intercom speakers in a little project box, maybe
> ten cubic inches or so. If you put it in a larger box, the tone gets
> deeper. If you use an 8-ohm speaker, a step-up transformer might be
> a good idea and the output transformer from the old transistor radio
> you got the speaker from would work fine if wired in reverse.
>
> But the intercom speakers are five bucks at your local Quam dealer.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

drichard > wrote:
>
>If the purpose of the speaker is to add harmonic distortion, couldn't
>a person do this in a more controlled manner during the mix using a
>distortion plugin, or an FX box? If preferred, it could be applied
>using a low-pass filter on the effect.

Probably.

>What does the speaker give you that the FX method won't?

When people started doing it forty years ago, there weren't any plug-ins
available. And now everybody is used to doing it that way, and the sound
you get that way.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Laurence Payne]

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 08:57:48 -0700, drichard >
wrote:

>If the purpose of the speaker is to add harmonic distortion, couldn't
>a person do this in a more controlled manner during the mix using a
>distortion plugin, or an FX box? If preferred, it could be applied
>using a low-pass filter on the effect.
>
>What does the speaker give you that the FX method won't?

Oh, what does ANY technique give you that an alternative, similar
technique doesn't? :-) It's one tool in the recordist's box. Quite
unusually, it's a cheap, easy one. Don't argue - try it!

[Chevdo]

In article >, says...
>
>drichard > wrote:
>>
>>If the purpose of the speaker is to add harmonic distortion, couldn't
>>a person do this in a more controlled manner during the mix using a
>>distortion plugin, or an FX box? If preferred, it could be applied
>>using a low-pass filter on the effect.
>
>Probably.

No, probably NOT. The term 'harmonic distortion' is like the term 'wet'.. milk
can make you wet but so can orange juice, and they're completely different
liquids, aren't they. I suppose you could model the effect of the passive
radiato, but doing so would require a lot more complexity than a run of the
mill 'distortion' plug-in.


>
>>What does the speaker give you that the FX method won't?
>
>When people started doing it forty years ago, there weren't any plug-ins
>available. And now everybody is used to doing it that way, and the sound
>you get that way.

Then there's the fact that any kind of DSP modelling will be a rough
approximation of an acoustic event anyway. His question is about as poignant
as "why not just use one microphone for all recordings, and double up tracks
and apply effects to mimmick recording with a whole bunch of microphones" -
gee, maybe because it doesn't SOUND AS GOOD?