suggested set-up dobro and vocals. laptopguitar!

[studiorat]

Hello to everyone here again. I hope you are all well.
I've got a session with a singer who plays dobro and various lap type
guitars coming up soon. Has anyone got any suggestions for a set-up
and mic choice for recording the guy as he's playing and singing. I
was thinking of an SM-7 for the vocals. Anybody got a suggestion for a
nice tight mic that I could use on the dobro, or should I try maybe a
fig 8 mic or something.
Thanks in advance.
Dave.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article . com>,
studiorat > wrote:
>
>Hello to everyone here again. I hope you are all well.
>I've got a session with a singer who plays dobro and various lap type
>guitars coming up soon. Has anyone got any suggestions for a set-up
>and mic choice for recording the guy as he's playing and singing. I
>was thinking of an SM-7 for the vocals. Anybody got a suggestion for a
>nice tight mic that I could use on the dobro, or should I try maybe a
>fig 8 mic or something.

Figure-8 is good. Try a Beyer M260 or a Sennheiser 441 too, though.

I think you're going to have trouble with too much dobro in the vocal
mike, but that's better than having too much vocal in the dobro mike.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[studiorat]

>
> I think you're going to have trouble with too much dobro in the vocal
> mike, but that's better than having too much vocal in the dobro mike.
> --scott

I kinda thought that alright Scott, I suspect a ribbon might be nice
on the guitar. It's a try-out session for something that may happen
later, so i'd like to try a few things out.

[Fletch]

On Apr 5, 10:07 am, "studiorat" > wrote:
> Hello to everyone here again. I hope you are all well.
> I've got a session with a singer who plays dobro and various lap type
> guitars coming up soon. Has anyone got any suggestions for a set-up
> and mic choice for recording the guy as he's playing and singing. I
> was thinking of an SM-7 for the vocals. Anybody got a suggestion for a
> nice tight mic that I could use on the dobro, or should I try maybe a
> fig 8 mic or something.
> Thanks in advance.
> Dave.


Because the player has an idea how they want their dobro to sound, you
may wish to talk with them about what you're doing. Also, sit and just
listen to them playing and singing, unamplified. Stand over their
shoulder to hear from their hearing perspective, so you'll have an
idea what they're hearing from the dobro itself (though their ears are
not your ears it will still help).Your ears are the best source of
information you will need when choosing the microphones. You want to
capture that sound the best you know how.

>From your choice of mics, choose the one that best captures what you
heard during your listening time. If you don't have one, borrow, rent
or buy what you need.

--Fletch

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 5, 1:07 pm, "studiorat" > wrote:
> Hello to everyone here again. I hope you are all well.

I have the sniffles, and I think I'm catching lung cancer. How are
you?

> I've got a session with a singer who plays dobro and various lap type
> guitars coming up soon. Has anyone got any suggestions for a set-up
> and mic choice for recording the guy as he's playing and singing. I
> was thinking of an SM-7 for the vocals. Anybody got a suggestion for a
> nice tight mic that I could use on the dobro, or should I try maybe a
> fig 8 mic or something.

How good is he? Can he do a take without wanting to fix the vocal or
guitar? If so, find a mic that gets a good balance between the voice
and guitar, push the Record button and have him call you when he's
happy with a take. Set up a stereo pair if you want, and the room
sounds good.

A Figure-8 would help to minimize the vocal in the instrument track.
That might help you in mixing if there are other instruments and you
need to EQ the guitar to fit. but it's unlikely that you'll have
enough isolation so that you can re-do or punch in the vocal.

If the player doesn't have a favorite mic, I like an AKG D-224 on a
Dobro, but I haven't found anything that doesn't work pretty well on
it, so if you need isolation, you might as well choose a mic based on
that. The times I've recorded one have been in a bluegrass context
where if the dobrolic plectologist sings at all, it's not while he's
playing. If he's playing Bukka White, you'd probably do better with a
single mic position for both the vocal and guitar.

By the way, Gibson says we can't say "Dobro" any more unless it's
really a Dobro brand (which they now own). On the radio around here
they make a big deal of pretentiously saying "resophonic guitar."

[RDOGuy]

On Apr 5, 2:45 pm, "Mike Rivers" > wrote:

> By the way, Gibson says we can't say "Dobro" any more unless it's
> really a Dobro brand (which they now own). On the radio around here
> they make a big deal of pretentiously saying "resophonic guitar."

Awww, shoot! And here I was... about to offer the folks at Gibson a
Kleenex... oop, I mean a tissue... :)

[Fletch]

On Apr 5, 12:45 pm, "Mike Rivers" > wrote:
> On Apr 5, 1:07 pm, "studiorat" > wrote:
>
> > Hello to everyone here again. I hope you are all well.
>
> I have the sniffles, and I think I'm catching lung cancer. How are
> you?
>
> > I've got a session with a singer who plays dobro and various lap type
> > guitars coming up soon. Has anyone got any suggestions for a set-up
> > and mic choice for recording the guy as he's playing and singing. I
> > was thinking of an SM-7 for the vocals. Anybody got a suggestion for a
> > nice tight mic that I could use on the dobro, or should I try maybe a
> > fig 8 mic or something.
>
> How good is he? Can he do a take without wanting to fix the vocal or
> guitar? If so, find a mic that gets a good balance between the voice
> and guitar, push the Record button and have him call you when he's
> happy with a take. Set up a stereo pair if you want, and the room
> sounds good.
>
> A Figure-8 would help to minimize the vocal in the instrument track.
> That might help you in mixing if there are other instruments and you
> need to EQ the guitar to fit. but it's unlikely that you'll have
> enough isolation so that you can re-do or punch in the vocal.
>
> If the player doesn't have a favorite mic, I like an AKG D-224 on a
> Dobro, but I haven't found anything that doesn't work pretty well on
> it, so if you need isolation, you might as well choose a mic based on
> that. The times I've recorded one have been in a bluegrass context
> where if the dobrolic plectologist sings at all, it's not while he's
> playing. If he's playing Bukka White, you'd probably do better with a
> single mic position for both the vocal and guitar.
>
> By the way, Gibson says we can't say "Dobro" any more unless it's
> really a Dobro brand (which they now own). On the radio around here
> they make a big deal of pretentiously saying "resophonic guitar."


I think Gibson would have a hard time with that in court.

I seem to remember Xerox complaining about the same thing, taking it
to court, and losing because the word had entered the English lexicon
of colloquialisms and was now just another "word" for copying a
document. "Could you Xerox that for me, sweetie?"

So using Dobro as a generic term, since the instrument has been around
for so long and is a general reference to instruments that use a
resonator cone, Gibson would never win a lawsuit if they dared to
bring one -- which their legal department would, assuming they were
saavy, remind them of the above Xerox episode and say it wasn't worth
it for the PR hit they'd take.

--Fletch

[jtougas]

On 5 Apr 2007 12:45:57 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
trained 100 monkeys to jump on the keyboard and write:

>How good is he? Can he do a take without wanting to fix the vocal or
>guitar? If so, find a mic that gets a good balance between the voice
>and guitar, push the Record button and have him call you when he's
>happy with a take. Set up a stereo pair if you want, and the room
>sounds good.

Would a mid-side arrangement work in this situation, too?

--
jtougas

"listen- there's a hell of a good universe next door
let's go" - e.e. cummings

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 5, 6:23 pm, jtougas > wrote:

> Would a mid-side arrangement work in this situation, too?

It could. The best stereo mic setup is a function of the mics, the
room, and the source.

[Scott Dorsey]

RDOGuy > wrote:
>On Apr 5, 2:45 pm, "Mike Rivers" > wrote:
>
>> By the way, Gibson says we can't say "Dobro" any more unless it's
>> really a Dobro brand (which they now own). On the radio around here
>> they make a big deal of pretentiously saying "resophonic guitar."
>
>Awww, shoot! And here I was... about to offer the folks at Gibson a
>Kleenex... oop, I mean a tissue... :)

This is going to KILL the guys down in Nashville. No more lyrics like
"Got my first dobro at the Bi-Lo" or "Guitar dobro at the go-go."
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 5, 6:20 pm, "Fletch" > wrote:

> I seem to remember Xerox complaining about the same thing, taking it
> to court, and losing because the word had entered the English lexicon
> of colloquialisms and was now just another "word" for copying a
> document. "Could you Xerox that for me, sweetie?"

> So using Dobro as a generic term, since the instrument has been around
> for so long and is a general reference to instruments that use a
> resonator cone, Gibson would never win a lawsuit if they dared to
> bring one

I dunno. There a millions of office workers who use copying machines
every day. There are maybe a thousand Dobro players. And those who
played the "other" resonator guitar always called it a "National" to
distinguish it from the one that never caught on with blues musicians
but was adopted by bluegrass players. I think they would have an easy
time making a case that while "Dobro" may have entered the lexicon of
a limited subset of musicians, it's not in the same class as "Xerox"
or "Kleenex."

Gibson's legal department is pretty good. They managed to convince a
court that Paul Reed Smith had infringed on one of their cutaway body
designs and had to stop selling that model.

[Agent 86]

On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:03:44 -0700, Mike Rivers wrote:

>
> Gibson's legal department is pretty good. They managed to convince a court
> that Paul Reed Smith had infringed on one of their cutaway body designs
> and had to stop selling that model.

No doubt, and that despite the fact that PRS is building instruments that
are orders of magnitude better than anything Gibson has made in the last
half century (excepting banjos. Go figure. They still make pretty damned
good banjos. I guess a banjo has more metal than wood, so it's easier for
a big soulless corporation to mass produce decent ones, even if they've
long forgotten the concept of quality. What a bunch of ****ing assholes.)

Excuse me. I have to go kick a hole on the back of my J200...

[S Tew]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message --------

>
> By the way, Gibson says we can't say "Dobro" any more unless it's
> really a Dobro brand (which they now own). On the radio around here
> they make a big deal of pretentiously saying "resophonic guitar."
>

I don't know what they are whining about or if they have any legal stand.
Dobro has become accepted as a word which started as a brand and became a
class... like xerox, Q-tip, Band-Aid, Kool-Aid, Frisbee, Scotch Tape, Jello,
Ziplock, Rollerblades, etc.

Good thing my dobro is a Dobro.

Steve

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 5, 10:38 pm, "S Tew" > wrote:

> Good thing my dobro is a Dobro.

But is it a real Dobro or a Gibson Dobro?

[studiorat]

On Apr 6, 11:50 am, "Mike Rivers" > wrote:
> On Apr 5, 10:38 pm, "S Tew" > wrote:
>
> > Good thing my dobro is a Dobro.
>
> But is it a real Dobro or a Gibson Dobro?

It's a Dobro, about 1925 I believe..The guy is an incredible player
with a really deep voice.
Soooo, what do the Nashville Cats use to record theirs?
The recording is taking place in the music room in an old bar out in
the country. The acoustics are really nice.

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 6, 7:49 am, "studiorat" > wrote:

> Soooo, what do the Nashville Cats use to record theirs?

In Nashville, a KM84 is probably the first call, but some people like
a large diaphragm condenser mic for Dobro. I've used a U87 a few times
with excellent results. And a U87 is also good for a singer with a
deep voice. Get two. ;)

[SRS]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in news:1175802357.223779.53250
@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> By the way, Gibson says we can't say "Dobro" any more unless it's
> really a Dobro brand (which they now own).

As did Dobro/OMI before them, Semie Moseley before them, a few others in
between and the Dopyera Bros. before them. Nothing new here ;-)

> On the radio around here they make a big deal of pretentiously saying
"resophonic guitar."

And National Resophonic will be all over us for using the term
"resophonic", which they claim to own.

I'm using the word "resonator guitar" these days. "I don't like it but I
guess things happen that way".

Oh, yeah, I REALLY like my RCA 77DX on my dobro, er, resonator guitar,
but it's often not feasible. My Audio Technica AT4033 will usually get
it done, too.

Scott
(the other, other Scott)

[S Tew]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Apr 5, 10:38 pm, "S Tew" > wrote:
>
>> Good thing my dobro is a Dobro.
>
> But is it a real Dobro or a Gibson Dobro?
>

Dobro 12 string round neck... An OMI instrument. After Mosrite and before
Gibson.

[SRS[_2_]]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in news:1175814224.790937.74050
@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

> Gibson's legal department is pretty good. They managed to convince a
> court that Paul Reed Smith had infringed on one of their cutaway body
> designs and had to stop selling that model.

Actually Gibson lost the case on appeal. I have the decision in PDF here
somewhere, and can get you the cite, if you like.

In a nutshell, the trial court decided that a potential buyer confusing a
PRS Singlecut for a Gibson Les Paul in a smoky bar was enough. The
Court of Appeals said it was not.

The decision is actually pretty entertaining.

Scott
(the Other, other Scott, legal paraprofessional by day...)

[hank alrich]

SRS wrote:

> "Mike Rivers" wrote:
>
> > Gibson's legal department is pretty good. They managed to convince a
> > court that Paul Reed Smith had infringed on one of their cutaway body
> > designs and had to stop selling that model.
>
> Actually Gibson lost the case on appeal. I have the decision in PDF here
> somewhere, and can get you the cite, if you like.

Can you post a link to it? I thought the original decison was severely
intelligence challenged and would love to read the rebuttal. <g>

> In a nutshell, the trial court decided that a potential buyer confusing a
> PRS Singlecut for a Gibson Les Paul in a smoky bar was enough. The
> Court of Appeals said it was not.
>
> The decision is actually pretty entertaining.
>
> Scott
> (the Other, other Scott, legal paraprofessional by day...)


--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 7, 10:50 am, (hank alrich) wrote:

> > Actually Gibson lost the case on appeal.

> Can you post a link to it? I thought the original decison was severely
> intelligence challenged and would love to read the rebuttal. <g>

It doesn't really matter how won (well, I guess it does to PRS), the
point is that Gibson had the balls to file the suit and was willing to
put the money behind it. They just happened to take on a company that
was big enough and smart enough to fight it. Had Gibson attacked
independent builders who make guitars that look exactly like Gibson
models with the exception of the peghead shape, those little guys
wouldn't have the money to fight it.

[Paul Stamler]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Apr 6, 7:49 am, "studiorat" > wrote:
>
> > Soooo, what do the Nashville Cats use to record theirs?
>
> In Nashville, a KM84 is probably the first call, but some people like
> a large diaphragm condenser mic for Dobro. I've used a U87 a few times
> with excellent results. And a U87 is also good for a singer with a
> deep voice. Get two. ;)

Depending on the player, condenser mics with too bright a top end may pick
up too much pick noise. Last time I recorded a guy doubling on wood guitar
and Dobro (tm) I first put up the Microtech Gefell M930. It worked great for
the regular guitar but sounded like railroad wheels clicking and clacking on
the Dobro (tm). I switched to, of all things, a Groove Tubes 5sc, one of the
first generation of Chinese condenser mics, which has an unusually flat high
end. Worked like a charm, and still sounded fine on the wood guitar (this
was a live-concert recording, so one mic had to work for both).

Peace,
Paul

[SRS[_2_]]

here somewhere, and can get you the cite, if you like.
>
> Can you post a link to it? I thought the original decison was severely
> intelligence challenged and would love to read the rebuttal. <g>

On the 6th Cir Court of Appeals Website:


http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/05a0387p-06.pdf