Mixing 3 Piece

[John Phillips]

I tracked my first three piece blues band and when I started to do the mix,
I drew a blank as to the instrument placement. Other tracking that I have
done had more parts so that I could get stereo.

The tracks are:

Guitar - Rhythm
Guitar - Lead
Bass
Vocal
Drums

Let's see, I place the rhythm guitar in the center, the bass in the center,
and the vocal in the center. The drums are stereo (no issues here) and I
panned the lead guitar a little to the right. It sounds mono to me. Any
suggestions on how to approach this would be helpful.

Thanks,

John Phillips

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"John Phillips" > wrote in message ...
> I tracked my first three piece blues band and when I started to do the mix,
> I drew a blank as to the instrument placement. Other tracking that I have
> done had more parts so that I could get stereo.
>
> The tracks are:
>
> Guitar - Rhythm
> Guitar - Lead
> Bass
> Vocal
> Drums
>
> Let's see, I place the rhythm guitar in the center, the bass in the center,
> and the vocal in the center. The drums are stereo (no issues here) and I
> panned the lead guitar a little to the right. It sounds mono to me. Any
> suggestions on how to approach this would be helpful.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Phillips


I think you've got it.... blues is pretty much 'mono'. ;-)

Use a few stereo efx returns (lightly) and you're there.


--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[John Phillips]

"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm> wrote in message
news:J3CQh.4388$i93.1738@trnddc05...
>
> "John Phillips" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I tracked my first three piece blues band and when I started to do the
>> mix,
>> I drew a blank as to the instrument placement. ...>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John Phillips


> I think you've got it.... blues is pretty much 'mono'. ;-)
>
> Use a few stereo efx returns (lightly) and you're there.
>
>
> --
> David Morgan (MAMS)
> http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
> Morgan Audio Media Service
> Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
> _______________________________________
> http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
>
>
>
Thanks for the tip, I did not think about the effects.

John Phillips

[Scott Dorsey]

John Phillips > wrote:
>I tracked my first three piece blues band and when I started to do the mix,
>I drew a blank as to the instrument placement. Other tracking that I have
>done had more parts so that I could get stereo.

If they played live, where would they be? Close your eyes and imagine them
on the stage. Now panpot them there.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[John Phillips]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> John Phillips > wrote:
>>I tracked my first three piece blues band and when I started to do the
>>mix,
>>I drew a blank as to the instrument placement. Other tracking that I have
>>done had more parts so that I could get stereo.
>
> If they played live, where would they be? Close your eyes and imagine
> them
> on the stage. Now panpot them there.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

It makes sense and it crossed my mind but I thought that the heavy rhythm
would skew the mix. In thinking about it, I would have moved it too far to
one side so I did not try it. I will experiment with it at a realistic
amount.

Thanks,

John Phillips

[Ian Bell]

John Phillips wrote:

> I tracked my first three piece blues band and when I started to do the
> mix,
> I drew a blank as to the instrument placement. Other tracking that I have
> done had more parts so that I could get stereo.
>
> The tracks are:
>
> Guitar - Rhythm
> Guitar - Lead
> Bass
> Vocal
> Drums
>
> Let's see, I place the rhythm guitar in the center, the bass in the
> center,
> and the vocal in the center.

> The drums are stereo (no issues here)

I think that is where you are going wrong. Try building a rhythm section
left of centre, i.e pan drums from left to centre and place bass left of
centre. Add reverb to drums (principally snare I would suggest) with a long
pre delay and pan return hard right to give a larger sense of space.Rhythm
guitar in blues is often a counterpoint to bass/drums so pan this right of
centre. Add a short dual delay to this (20ms L, 30ms R) to push it back
from the speakers. Then place lead guitar and vocal just slightly left and
right of centre. You can experiment with reverbs/delays on both of these to
give them some depth.

Good luck

Ian

[Paul Stamler]

"John Phillips" > wrote in message
...
> I tracked my first three piece blues band and when I started to do the
mix,
> I drew a blank as to the instrument placement. Other tracking that I have
> done had more parts so that I could get stereo.
>
> The tracks are:
>
> Guitar - Rhythm
> Guitar - Lead
> Bass
> Vocal
> Drums
>
> Let's see, I place the rhythm guitar in the center, the bass in the
center,
> and the vocal in the center. The drums are stereo (no issues here) and I
> panned the lead guitar a little to the right. It sounds mono to me. Any
> suggestions on how to approach this would be helpful.

Bass & Vocal - centered
Drums - stereo
Rhythm - halfway left
Lead - halfway right

Peace,
Paul

[Fletch]

On Apr 3, 6:00 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> John Phillips > wrote:
> >I tracked my first three piece blues band and when I started to do the mix,
> >I drew a blank as to the instrument placement. Other tracking that I have
> >done had more parts so that I could get stereo.
>
> If they played live, where would they be? Close your eyes and imagine them
> on the stage. Now panpot them there.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


That's what I do. I ask the band how their stage setup is.

With a three piece that overdubs a second guitar, I'll ask where the
guitar player's rig is on stage, that will be the lead guitar
position. I'll put the rhythm opposite. But I won't pan hard left hard
right, unless that is what they want.

Bass, vocal, kick in the center, of course. Effects added with a bit
of panning, but not much. Ambient effects will be hard panned to
create the "space" if that is what they want, otherwise, clean and
tight.

However... if there is no overdubbed part, I'll take a cue from the
Who's Live At Leeds mix and run the bass on one side and the guitar on
the other, based on their stage setup, if that's what the band wants.
Otherwise, I'll place things where they want. Then I'll mix it as if
it were a live event -- and if they recorded "live", all the better
because the immediacy of the moment comes through when mixed properly.

--Fletch

[[email protected]]

Try to get a preamp for the mics that has a better built in pan so it
will dound more stereo, if not, go for a higher quality mixer like the
alesis multimix 8USB or 16USB. They both have great built in fx and a
wider range for the pan.

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>Try to get a preamp for the mics that has a better built in pan so it
>will dound more stereo, if not, go for a higher quality mixer like the
>alesis multimix 8USB or 16USB. They both have great built in fx and a
>wider range for the pan.

Is this a joke? I cannot tell if you are actually serious here.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> > wrote:
> >Try to get a preamp for the mics that has a better built in pan so it
> >will dound more stereo, if not, go for a higher quality mixer like the
> >alesis multimix 8USB or 16USB. They both have great built in fx and a
> >wider range for the pan.
>
> Is this a joke? I cannot tell if you are actually serious here.
> --scott

Did you see the comments made about mics from this source? You're right,
it's either "hee haw" or "aieeeeeeee". No wonder somebody's stereo is
overloaded.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[hank alrich]

> wrote:

> Try to get a preamp for the mics that has a better built in pan so it
> will dound more stereo, if not, go for a higher quality mixer like the
> alesis multimix 8USB or 16USB. They both have great built in fx and a
> wider range for the pan.

Sheer genius. Consider getting a more powerful Clue Amplifier.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[philicorda[_2_]]

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:52:59 -0400, John Phillips wrote:

> I tracked my first three piece blues band and when I started to do the mix,
> I drew a blank as to the instrument placement. Other tracking that I have
> done had more parts so that I could get stereo.
>
> The tracks are:
>
> Guitar - Rhythm
> Guitar - Lead
> Bass
> Vocal
> Drums
>
> Let's see, I place the rhythm guitar in the center, the bass in the center,
> and the vocal in the center. The drums are stereo (no issues here) and I
> panned the lead guitar a little to the right. It sounds mono to me. Any
> suggestions on how to approach this would be helpful.

Is there any spill from the guitar on the stereo drum overheads?
Sometimes you can pan instruments towards where they appear to
be in the overheads and get some stereo image. Naturally this depends a lot
on how the recording was made and where the overheads were positioned.


>
> Thanks,
>
> John Phillips

[John Phillips]

>
> Is there any spill from the guitar on the stereo drum overheads?
> Sometimes you can pan instruments towards where they appear to
> be in the overheads and get some stereo image. Naturally this depends a
> lot
> on how the recording was made and where the overheads were positioned.
>

I had the guitar in a separate iso booth and the bass amp in a different
room. The leakage is very small.

Thanks for the tip.

John Phillips

[Fletch]

On Apr 4, 11:19 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> > wrote:
> >Try to get a preamp for the mics that has a better built in pan so it
> >will dound more stereo, if not, go for a higher quality mixer like the
> >alesis multimix 8USB or 16USB. They both have great built in fx and a
> >wider range for the pan.
>
> Is this a joke? I cannot tell if you are actually serious here.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


I think blood just shot out of my eyes!!

--Fletch

[hank alrich]

Fletch wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > > wrote:
> > >Try to get a preamp for the mics that has a better built in pan so it
> > >will dound more stereo, if not, go for a higher quality mixer like the
> > >alesis multimix 8USB or 16USB. They both have great built in fx and a
> > >wider range for the pan.
> >
> > Is this a joke? I cannot tell if you are actually serious here.

> I think blood just shot out of my eyes!!

Did I not warn you that the cast iron pan was too much??

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Agent 86]

On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:15:36 -0700, stereooverload243 wrote:

> Try to get a preamp for the mics that has a better built in pan so it will
> dound more stereo, if not, go for a higher quality mixer like the alesis
> multimix 8USB or 16USB. They both have great built in fx and a wider range
> for the pan.

Damn, is it spring break time already?

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message ...
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> > > wrote:
> > >Try to get a preamp for the mics that has a better built in pan so it
> > >will dound more stereo, if not, go for a higher quality mixer like the
> > >alesis multimix 8USB or 16USB. They both have great built in fx and a
> > >wider range for the pan.
> >
> > Is this a joke? I cannot tell if you are actually serious here.
> > --scott
>
> Did you see the comments made about mics from this source? You're right,
> it's either "hee haw" or "aieeeeeeee". No wonder somebody's stereo is
> overloaded.
>
> --
> ha
> Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

" It's MISTER MICROPHONE !!!!! Hey babe.... we'll be right back !! "

[Agent 86]

On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 07:23:42 +0000, David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

>
> " It's MISTER MICROPHONE !!!!! Hey babe.... we'll be right back !! "

C'mon, get it right.

It's "Hey good lookin'. We'll be back to pick you up later."

Then speed off before the girls have time to give you the finger.

[Les Cargill]

John Phillips wrote:

>>Is there any spill from the guitar on the stereo drum overheads?
>>Sometimes you can pan instruments towards where they appear to
>>be in the overheads and get some stereo image. Naturally this depends a
>>lot
>>on how the recording was made and where the overheads were positioned.
>>
>
>
> I had the guitar in a separate iso booth and the bass amp in a different
> room. The leakage is very small.
>
> Thanks for the tip.
>
> John Phillips
>
>
>

Don't do that next time. Spill is your friend.

--
Les Cargill

[John Phillips]

"Les Cargill" > wrote in message
...
> John Phillips wrote:
>
>>>Is there any spill from the guitar on the stereo drum overheads?
>>>Sometimes you can pan instruments towards where they appear to
>>>be in the overheads and get some stereo image. Naturally this depends a
>>>lot
>>>on how the recording was made and where the overheads were positioned.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I had the guitar in a separate iso booth and the bass amp in a different
>> room. The leakage is very small.
>>
>> Thanks for the tip.
>>
>> John Phillips
>>
>>
>>
>
> Don't do that next time. Spill is your friend.
>
> --
> Les Cargill

Thanks for the thought but doesn't the quality of spill affect the other
tracks? If my mics do not have good off axis response then the sound will
suffer?

John Phillips

[Les Cargill]

John Phillips wrote:

> "Les Cargill" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>John Phillips wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Is there any spill from the guitar on the stereo drum overheads?
>>>>Sometimes you can pan instruments towards where they appear to
>>>>be in the overheads and get some stereo image. Naturally this depends a
>>>>lot
>>>>on how the recording was made and where the overheads were positioned.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I had the guitar in a separate iso booth and the bass amp in a different
>>>room. The leakage is very small.
>>>
>>>Thanks for the tip.
>>>
>>>John Phillips
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Don't do that next time. Spill is your friend.
>>
>>--
>>Les Cargill
>
>
> Thanks for the thought but doesn't the quality of spill affect the other
> tracks? If my mics do not have good off axis response then the sound will
> suffer?
>
> John Phillips
>
>

I don't seem to have that problem, or at least haven't in
the past.

--
Les Cargill

[John Phillips]

"Les Cargill" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>
>>>Don't do that next time. Spill is your friend.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Les Cargill
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the thought but doesn't the quality of spill affect the other
>> tracks? If my mics do not have good off axis response then the sound
>> will suffer?
>>
>> John Phillips
>
> I don't seem to have that problem, or at least haven't in
> the past.
>
> --
> Les Cargill

Just goes to show that there is more than one want to do anything.

[Les Cargill]

John Phillips wrote:

> "Les Cargill" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>>Don't do that next time. Spill is your friend.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Les Cargill
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks for the thought but doesn't the quality of spill affect the other
>>>tracks? If my mics do not have good off axis response then the sound
>>>will suffer?
>>>
>>>John Phillips
>>
>>I don't seem to have that problem, or at least haven't in
>>the past.
>>
>>--
>>Les Cargill
>
>
> Just goes to show that there is more than one want to do anything.
>
>

Maybe I'm imagining it, but I think the bleed makes the thing
easier to mix. Glues it all together somehow. If you can,
try it next time. Something about rhythm guitar in the overheads
that sounds fuller.

Bass can be problematic. Run test tracks and adjust the level
of iso based on those, or just run bass direct.

I also do the 'track at a time' thing when I'm working
full arrangements with a songwriter who doesn't have a band,
but I prefer the remote approach.

--
Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

John Phillips wrote:

> "Les Cargill" wrote...
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Don't do that next time. Spill is your friend.
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Les Cargill
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks for the thought but doesn't the quality of spill affect the other
> >> tracks? If my mics do not have good off axis response then the sound
> >> will suffer?
> >>
> >> John Phillips
> >
> > I don't seem to have that problem, or at least haven't in
> > the past.
> >
> > --
> > Les Cargill
>
> Just goes to show that there is more than one want to do anything.

Most people who have done lots of recording, especially if they've done
a bunch of live recording work, understand that bleed is all over the
place when one is listening to musicians play together, and that one
must learn to use it beneficially. The idea that everything is supposed
to happen in separate universes and then somehow be turned into musical
life on one planet is derived from a lack of reecording experience, and
a desire to have control over that which is suppsoed to be alive.
Control of bleed comes from choice and placment of mics.

Here's a quote from an interview with John Congleton in the current EQ
Mag:

"You're always going to get a much more clever and pure sound with
"proper miking and tracking in the right environment. Who cares about
"chicanery? I'm rarely excited about how a reverb unit sounds, because
"I've heard it all before. Some of them are so identifiable it's just
"boring. But if you truly get a good room sound, you're recording
"something that may be impossible to replicate."

Bleed is your friend. Lerarn how to use it.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message...

> Bleed is your friend. Learn how to use it.


There are, occassionally, some rather blatant exceptions to that rule...
but by and large, it IS a rule.

DM

[John Phillips]

>> > Les Cargill
>>
>> Just goes to show that there is more than one want to do anything.
>
> Most people who have done lots of recording, especially if they've done
> a bunch of live recording work, understand that bleed is all over the
> place when one is listening to musicians play together, and that one
> must learn to use it beneficially. The idea that everything is supposed
> to happen in separate universes and then somehow be turned into musical
> life on one planet is derived from a lack of reecording experience, and
> a desire to have control over that which is suppsoed to be alive.
> Control of bleed comes from choice and placment of mics.
>
>
> Bleed is your friend. Lerarn how to use it.
>
> --
> ha
> Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

I am in the "not done a lot of recording" crowd. I am learning and am open
to new ideas.

Thanks,

John Phillips

[WillStG]

On Apr 9, 4:51 pm, "John Phillips" > wrote:
> >> > Les Cargill
>
> >> Just goes to show that there is more than one want to do anything.
>
> > Most people who have done lots of recording, especially if they've done
> > a bunch of live recording work, understand that bleed is all over the
> > place when one is listening to musicians play together, and that one
> > must learn to use it beneficially. The idea that everything is supposed
> > to happen in separate universes and then somehow be turned into musical
> > life on one planet is derived from a lack of reecording experience, and
> > a desire to have control over that which is suppsoed to be alive.
> > Control of bleed comes from choice and placment of mics.
>
> > Bleed is your friend. Lerarn how to use it.
>
> > --
> > ha
> > Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam
>
> I am in the "not done a lot of recording" crowd. I am learning and am open
> to new ideas.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Phillips

Let me add a slight modifier... The fewer mics you use, the more
bleed can be your friend. The more mics you use, the more it is
possible for bleed to mess you up - if your mics are not placed
properly. If you have mics out of phase with each other, which could
be due to placement or bad cabling, or partially out of phase due to
placement with each other, this will wimp out your mix. But if your
mics are placed to reject noise at their nulls, and a mic facing the
bottom of the snare has it's polarity the reverse of the top snare
mic, etc., you will find that "bleed" can equal "blend" in your mix,
and help glue things together for you. Doesn't sound real compelling
without a bit of air, and after a while you miht find you don't like
mics placed as close to things as you once did. Or not.

Of course a nice Manley Varimu on the 2 buss can help glue stuff
together too... But you do have to learn to place mics well, whether
you want a really dry mix or one that "let's it bleed". Either way.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Agent 86" > wrote in message...

> Then speed off before the girls have time to give you the finger.


I wondered why that part never made the commerical. ;-)

[[email protected][_2_]]

I think I well do this:

Guitar - Rhythm=L 30
Guitar - Lead = R 10
Bass = C
Vocal =C