vocal recording

[Eagle Eye]

Hi folks,

I'm interested in recording singing for teaching purposes. Not sure if
it makes any difference, but just in case it does, this would be
operatic singing.

It is best not to practice by listening to yourself while singing, but
rather record, then listen.

The quality would have to be reasonably good. It need not be stereo.

I would hope I could simply have a good mic with a boom and pipe it
into my computer.

Is this possible? If so, any recommendations in regards to equimpment?

Thanks very much for your time.

Eagle Eye

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 3, 6:36 pm, "Eagle Eye" > wrote:

> I'm interested in recording singing for teaching purposes. Not sure if
> it makes any difference, but just in case it does, this would be
> operatic singing.

> The quality would have to be reasonably good. It need not be stereo.

> I would hope I could simply have a good mic with a boom and pipe it
> into my computer.

There's a new generation of mics that would probably be ideal for
this. They have all the necessary electronics in the mic body and have
a USB connector that plugs directly into your computer and looks to
the system like a sound card. Most of them are targeted toward
podcasting, but I expect that some of the better ones would be
suitable for recording your singing voice, particularly if you're
careful about setting the record level.

There are a number of manufacturers (as well as a couple of cheapos)
that are making USB mics now. You might look at the offerings from
MXL, one of the Chinese mic companies with a conscience.

http://www.mxl-usb.com/

[jwvm]

On Apr 3, 6:36 pm, "Eagle Eye" > wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I'm interested in recording singing for teaching purposes. Not sure if
> it makes any difference, but just in case it does, this would be
> operatic singing.
>
> It is best not to practice by listening to yourself while singing, but
> rather record, then listen.
>

What are you trying to do? Are you practicing to ultimately make
professional recordings? Do you want to use the recordings for your
students? You probably won't want to listen to yourself while singing.
Listening to the recording will likely be much more useful. Some
people tend to go out of tune when using headphones.

> The quality would have to be reasonably good. It need not be stereo.
>

With a single voice stereo can be a bit tricky!

> I would hope I could simply have a good mic with a boom and pipe it
> into my computer.

You should get a little mixer or microphone preamp and use the line
input on your sound card. The microphone input on typical sound cards
leaves much to be desired. Choosing a suitable microphone can be a
real challenge because there is not a single best microphone for
everyone. Search this newsgroup for "vocal microphones" and see all
the suggestions. Many here will suggest that you consider a Shure
SM-58 as a starting point. BTW, the room that you use can also have a
profound effect on what the recording sounds like.

>
> Is this possible? If so, any recommendations in regards to equimpment?

How much do you want to spend? :-)

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
> "Eagle Eye" wrote:
>> I'm interested in recording singing for teaching purposes. Not sure if
>> it makes any difference, but just in case it does, this would be
>> operatic singing.
>
>> The quality would have to be reasonably good. It need not be stereo.
>
>> I would hope I could simply have a good mic with a boom and pipe it
>> into my computer.
>
> There's a new generation of mics that would probably be ideal for
> this. They have all the necessary electronics in the mic body and have
> a USB connector that plugs directly into your computer and looks to
> the system like a sound card. Most of them are targeted toward
> podcasting, but I expect that some of the better ones would be
> suitable for recording your singing voice, particularly if you're
> careful about setting the record level.
>
> There are a number of manufacturers (as well as a couple of cheapos)
> that are making USB mics now. You might look at the offerings from
> MXL, one of the Chinese mic companies with a conscience.
>
> http://www.mxl-usb.com/

Rermember that he is recording operatic-style performance.
Those USB mics may not have the dynamic range (or the
gain/level adjustment range?) to handle it? Dunno, but
something to consider.

[Steve King]

"jwvm" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Apr 3, 6:36 pm, "Eagle Eye" > wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I'm interested in recording singing for teaching purposes. Not sure if
>> it makes any difference, but just in case it does, this would be
>> operatic singing.
>>
>> It is best not to practice by listening to yourself while singing, but
>> rather record, then listen.
>>
>
> What are you trying to do? Are you practicing to ultimately make
> professional recordings? Do you want to use the recordings for your
> students? You probably won't want to listen to yourself while singing.
> Listening to the recording will likely be much more useful. Some
> people tend to go out of tune when using headphones.
>
>> The quality would have to be reasonably good. It need not be stereo.
>>
>
> With a single voice stereo can be a bit tricky!
>
>> I would hope I could simply have a good mic with a boom and pipe it
>> into my computer.
>
> You should get a little mixer or microphone preamp and use the line
> input on your sound card. The microphone input on typical sound cards
> leaves much to be desired. Choosing a suitable microphone can be a
> real challenge because there is not a single best microphone for
> everyone. Search this newsgroup for "vocal microphones" and see all
> the suggestions. Many here will suggest that you consider a Shure
> SM-58 as a starting point. BTW, the room that you use can also have a
> profound effect on what the recording sounds like.
>
>>
>> Is this possible? If so, any recommendations in regards to equimpment?
>
> How much do you want to spend? :-)

I think Mike has it right. For your purpose the new USB mics seem just
right, certainly the least hassle. jwvm is correct in what he says, but I
suspect that it is overkill for your stated purpose. I'm making assumptions
based on a friend's experience doing just what you described. He used a
mini-disk recording, but that was before the USB microphones. A friend told
me that the Samson USB was not bad. He used it for voice recording several
announcer auditions into his laptop, while travelling. This is a guy who
has a very good selection of high-end microphones in his home Voice-over
studio, so I trust his judgement. I'm sure the MXL USB is fine, too.

Steve King

[Richard Crowley]

"Eagle Eye" wrote ...
> I'm interested in recording singing for teaching purposes. Not sure if
> it makes any difference, but just in case it does, this would be
> operatic singing.

It does make a difference. Recording operatic performance
style is rather different than typical rock or pop music recording.

> It is best not to practice by listening to yourself while singing, but
> rather record, then listen.
>
> The quality would have to be reasonably good. It need not be stereo.

OTOH, you may find mono to be "artificial sounding" to some
people (students, etc.?) We are pretty much acustomed to hear
stereo recordings, especially of music.

> I would hope I could simply have a good mic with a boom and pipe it
> into my computer.
>
> Is this possible?

Sure.

> If so, any recommendations in regards to equimpment?

Many people doing "podcasting" use the simple USB microphones.
But I would be wary that they may not be able to handle operatic-style
performance levels (or dynamic range)?

Off the top of my head I would consider something like an
Audio Technica AT2020 microphone and an M-Audio Mobile-
Pre USB mic preamp and audio interface (USB). I have
recommended this combination to a friend who is recording
voice-overs and audiobooks and she loves it.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/AudioTechnica-AT2020-Large-Diaphragm-Cardioid-Condenser-Microphone?sku=270620
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-MobilePre-USB-Portable-Audio-Interface?sku=701368

For software, there is (free) Audacity, or other low-cost
applications. A friend of mine found "Cool Audio editor"
the other day because she didn't know that "Cool Edit"
had been bought out by Adobe and became "Audition"

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Audio/Audio-Editors-Recorders/Cool-Audio-Editor.shtml
http://www.adobe.com/products/audition/

[Eagle Eye]

I really, really appreciate these suggestions.
I have been poking around various recording equipment sites and
getting the impression I had to sink some serious bucks into this.

Sounds like I'm due for a USB mic...

Eagle Eye

PS Yes, operatic singing has a very large dynamic range for voice.
But I suppose it's nothing compared to instruments is it?

[Geoff]

Eagle Eye wrote:
> I really, really appreciate these suggestions.
> I have been poking around various recording equipment sites and
> getting the impression I had to sink some serious bucks into this.
>
> Sounds like I'm due for a USB mic...
>
> Eagle Eye
>
> PS Yes, operatic singing has a very large dynamic range for voice.
> But I suppose it's nothing compared to instruments is it?

There should be no problem. Not like you are recording a whole orchestra at
the same time. The results may not be suitable for a commercial release,
but fine for the purpose you propose.

geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

Eagle Eye > wrote:
>I really, really appreciate these suggestions.
>I have been poking around various recording equipment sites and
>getting the impression I had to sink some serious bucks into this.

It depends what you want it for. If you want something to release,
you need to sink some serious bucks. If you want something that your
students can use as a demo to get into a conservatory, you are into
some bucks, but not as much. If you just want students to be able to
hear their voice so they can understand your critique, it's not a huge
investment at all.

>PS Yes, operatic singing has a very large dynamic range for voice.
>But I suppose it's nothing compared to instruments is it?

Depends on the instrument. Also getting balances between the head and
chest voice with a microphone can sometimes be a little interesting
unless you have a really large room and can pull back and record the
room instead of the singer.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 3, 7:19 pm, "Richard Crowley" > wrote:

> Rermember that he is recording operatic-style performance.
> Those USB mics may not have the dynamic range (or the
> gain/level adjustment range?) to handle it?

I was thinking about that. They certainly have the dynamic range but
they might not have sufficient attenuation to work up close. The mic
might have to be across the room - but then that's what opera is
about. Some actually have a gain control right on the mic (I remember
seeing a Samson like that) and some have a software control panel to
set the attenuation. I don't know of any that have a real pad right at
the capsule except maybe the Rode (just because they might think of
that).

It's a "try it and see" thing. Much simpler than recommending a mic
and a preamp and a sound card for such a simple and relatively non-
critical project - if it works.

[jwvm]

On Apr 3, 9:02 pm, "Mike Rivers" > wrote:
> On Apr 3, 7:19 pm, "Richard Crowley" > wrote:
>
> > Rermember that he is recording operatic-style performance.
> > Those USB mics may not have the dynamic range (or the
> > gain/level adjustment range?) to handle it?
>
> I was thinking about that. They certainly have the dynamic range but
> they might not have sufficient attenuation to work up close. The mic
> might have to be across the room - but then that's what opera is
> about. Some actually have a gain control right on the mic (I remember
> seeing a Samson like that) and some have a software control panel to
> set the attenuation. I don't know of any that have a real pad right at
> the capsule except maybe the Rode (just because they might think of
> that).
>
> It's a "try it and see" thing. Much simpler than recommending a mic
> and a preamp and a sound card for such a simple and relatively non-
> critical project - if it works.

On second thought maybe something like a Zoom H4 might not be a bad
way to go. This way he wouldn't need a computer to record but just to
burn CDs if his needs are not critical and this would provide some
sense of stereo. One would hope that Eagle Eye would have a decent
room for recording, however.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 3 Apr 2007 15:36:00 -0700, "Eagle Eye" > wrote:

>I'm interested in recording singing for teaching purposes. Not sure if
>it makes any difference, but just in case it does, this would be
>operatic singing.

Scott has already touched on this, but just to make
fersure-fersure, you'll really want to be mic'ing
from about six feet away in a rehearsal room.

In a really big (performance space sized) room, you'd
fly a mic somewhere over the conductor.

Just wanted to emphasize this because it's so
different from pop music recording techniques that
you might read about. Opry is different (he said,
damning with faint praise).

To put it another way, close mic'ing will give a
dangerously skewed perspective, *especially* for
learning purposes.

All good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck

"Thank you so much Dr. Bostrom. You have proved that
my psychiatrist was wrong all along." -(anonymous)

[Harry Lavo]

"Richard Crowley" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rivers" wrote ...
>> "Eagle Eye" wrote:
>>> I'm interested in recording singing for teaching purposes. Not sure if
>>> it makes any difference, but just in case it does, this would be
>>> operatic singing.
>>
>>> The quality would have to be reasonably good. It need not be stereo.
>>
>>> I would hope I could simply have a good mic with a boom and pipe it
>>> into my computer.
>>
>> There's a new generation of mics that would probably be ideal for
>> this. They have all the necessary electronics in the mic body and have
>> a USB connector that plugs directly into your computer and looks to
>> the system like a sound card. Most of them are targeted toward
>> podcasting, but I expect that some of the better ones would be
>> suitable for recording your singing voice, particularly if you're
>> careful about setting the record level.
>>
>> There are a number of manufacturers (as well as a couple of cheapos)
>> that are making USB mics now. You might look at the offerings from
>> MXL, one of the Chinese mic companies with a conscience.
>>
>> http://www.mxl-usb.com/
>
> Rermember that he is recording operatic-style performance.
> Those USB mics may not have the dynamic range (or the
> gain/level adjustment range?) to handle it? Dunno, but
> something to consider.

I was thinking of something more like the Zoom H4. I believe it has an
adaptor that allows it to be put on a stand (and presumably the end of a
boom) Just plug it in and record, then transfer to the computer. It has the
side benefit of being in stereo and with mics good enough to do a stealth
concert recording if the singer wants to use it that way. For $300 bucks,
hard to beat.

[Eagle Eye]

Well, I was all set to go for the Zoom H4 after having a look at it.
This really interested me because I could throw away the cheap thing
I've been using for MY lessons. It could do double duty; record my
lessons and record others (and myself) for practice. I was thinking I
was stuck with some kind of boom with a mic on it for practice. The
thing would be simply too impractical to drag to my lessons.

The thing is the room is going to change quite a bit. My vocal
teacher's room is her living room, about 30 ft long and 15 feet wide
with furniture and a piano. For practice sessions it would change
between living rooms and/or my extra bedroom.

I say I was all set to go with the Zoom H4 because it looked adequate.
But then I went and looked at the MXL USB mics and listened to some
guitar clips recorded on them and REALLY WANTED to buy one of these!
But the fact that I can't even find a price is not a good sign.
Probably expensive, no?

Can anyone give me an idea how that guitar clip might sound on the H4?

Thanks again,
Eagle Eye

[Eagle Eye]

Well, I was all set to go for the Zoom H4 after having a look at it.
This really interested me because I could throw away the cheap thing
I've been using for MY lessons. It could do double duty; record my
lessons and record others (and myself) for practice. I was thinking I
was stuck with some kind of boom with a mic on it for practice. The
thing would be simply too impractical to drag to my lessons.

The thing is the room is going to change quite a bit. My vocal
teacher's room is her living room, about 30 ft long and 15 feet wide
with furniture and a piano. For practice sessions it would change
between living rooms and/or my extra bedroom.

I say I was all set to go with the Zoom H4 because it looked adequate.
But then I went and looked at the MXL USB mics and listened to some
guitar clips recorded on them and REALLY WANTED to buy one of these!
But the fact that I can't even find a price is not a good sign.
Probably expensive, no?

Can anyone give me an idea how that guitar clip might sound on the H4?

Thanks again,
Eagle Eye

[Paul Stamler]

"Eagle Eye" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> I say I was all set to go with the Zoom H4 because it looked adequate.
> But then I went and looked at the MXL USB mics and listened to some
> guitar clips recorded on them and REALLY WANTED to buy one of these!
> But the fact that I can't even find a price is not a good sign.
> Probably expensive, no?

MXL USB-006 is US$130 or so at most outlets. That may or may not fit your
definition of "expensive". In the world of professional microphones that's
pretty cheap.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Eagle Eye" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> PS Yes, operatic singing has a very large dynamic range for voice.
> But I suppose it's nothing compared to instruments is it?

On the contrary, there are only a few instruments with as much dynamic range
as a trained opera singer. A lot of instruments can play as loud or louder,
but not many of them can play softly and still sound good.

Peace,
Paul

[Mike Rivers]

On Apr 3, 10:57 pm, "jwvm" > wrote:

> On second thought maybe something like a Zoom H4 might not be a bad
> way to go. This way he wouldn't need a computer to record but just to
> burn CDs if his needs are not critical and this would provide some
> sense of stereo.

I had thought about that, but I figured that he'd want some convenient
form of playback for study. At least if he recorded with a computer
he'd have the computer speakers right there. With a portable flash
memory recorder he'd either need to listen on headphones, plug it into
another system, or copy the contents of the flash card to a CD. With
the computer, it would be quick and simple to make a CD from the
recording, and if he spent a little time with it up front, he could
index it, if that would be helpful.

In another post, he seemed concerned with setting up a mic stand. Even
a portable recorder with a built-in mic has to be put somewhere. The
MXL USB-106 mic comes with a little desk stand which would be about
like the Zoom only a little more stable. And I assume it also comes
with a way to mount it on a normal mic stand for more flexible
positioning.

[jwvm]

On Apr 4, 1:56 am, "Eagle Eye" > wrote:
> Well, I was all set to go for the Zoom H4 after having a look at it.
> This really interested me because I could throw away the cheap thing
> I've been using for MY lessons. It could do double duty; record my
> lessons and record others (and myself) for practice. I was thinking I
> was stuck with some kind of boom with a mic on it for practice. The
> thing would be simply too impractical to drag to my lessons.

I am not sure that I follow you here. The H4 is not much bigger than a
standard microphone and you don't need a computer for recording. There
are very compact camera tripods. You might even be able to use a flash
adapter as a boom if you don't need to much extension.

>
> The thing is the room is going to change quite a bit. My vocal
> teacher's room is her living room, about 30 ft long and 15 feet wide
> with furniture and a piano. For practice sessions it would change
> between living rooms and/or my extra bedroom.
>
> I say I was all set to go with the Zoom H4 because it looked adequate.
> But then I went and looked at the MXL USB mics and listened to some
> guitar clips recorded on them and REALLY WANTED to buy one of these!
> But the fact that I can't even find a price is not a good sign.
> Probably expensive, no?
>
> Can anyone give me an idea how that guitar clip might sound on the H4?
>
A quick search with google produced the following link:

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2007/02/01/review-zoom-h4-handy-recorder.html?page=2

You could probably find others pretty easily.

Be warned that you will be comparing apples and oranges or even apples
and onions. There are so many variables when making a recording of
this type that comparisons are not likely to be too helpful. You would
be far better off seeing if you can borrow Z4 or a USB microphone and
evaluating it directly.

[[email protected]]

have you given any thought to recording outside. that's the best
sounding room anywhere! no early reflections... if you can over come
the wind noise you are good to go.

[Laurence Payne]

On 5 Apr 2007 07:35:07 -0700, "
> wrote:

>have you given any thought to recording outside. that's the best
>sounding room anywhere! no early reflections... if you can over come
>the wind noise you are good to go.

Have you done this?

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>have you given any thought to recording outside. that's the best
>sounding room anywhere! no early reflections... if you can over come
>the wind noise you are good to go.

Actually, it's a terrible-sounding place because there are no reflections
at all and therefore no sense of space to the room. Certainly it is
a nightmare for opera singers, who invariably have to rely on some sort
of sound reinforcement at outdoor concerts because they don't have the room
to help them.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 10:35:07 -0400, wrote
(in article . com>):

> have you given any thought to recording outside. that's the best
> sounding room anywhere! no early reflections... if you can over come
> the wind noise you are good to go.
>

Where do you live that you can go outside and not hear humanized noise?

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Edi Zubovic]

On 5 Apr 2007 13:27:43 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

> wrote:
>>have you given any thought to recording outside. that's the best
>>sounding room anywhere! no early reflections... if you can over come
>>the wind noise you are good to go.
>
>Actually, it's a terrible-sounding place because there are no reflections
>at all and therefore no sense of space to the room. Certainly it is
>a nightmare for opera singers, who invariably have to rely on some sort
>of sound reinforcement at outdoor concerts because they don't have the room
>to help them.
>--scott

--I think that these things ought to be made like an old-school
radioplay and not only "read-at-loud".


Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia