Subwoofers

[Here In Oregon]

Any opinions on subwoofer quality and output while considering the best bang
for the buck. I am looking for a self-powered subwoofer with a front
mounted driver design that has an extended low end and a tight bottom.

I will be using a high quality external crossover.

[Scott Dorsey]

Here In Oregon > wrote:
>Any opinions on subwoofer quality and output while considering the best bang
>for the buck. I am looking for a self-powered subwoofer with a front
>mounted driver design that has an extended low end and a tight bottom.

To match what mains in what room, with what goal?

>I will be using a high quality external crossover.

What kind with what filters?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Here In Oregon]

We all knew here where I am at that I was going to get this response.
Subjective question,.. isn't it? Time, time, time, ticking, ticking away.
Thank you for your time, time, time, ticking, ticking away. Repeat coda :

And did you know that everyone in the world has a different set of ears
(earprint) and what you may be hearing is going to be different to me and
every other person in the entire world,... but I hear you.

>To match what mains in what room, with what goal?

In this case, Event 20/20/Bas, an acoustically treated nice sounding medium
rare large room (Do you want the dimensions?) with my newly acquired as of
three hours ago Apogee AD-16X, Benchmark DAC-1, Billboard Adult Contemporary
top ten.

> What kind with what filters?

Never mind,.. now that is crossing the line and giving away my trade
secrets.
There is enough competition out there already and no I wasn't born yesterday
but last month.

I have been experiencing sleep deprivation for the last two weeks. Can you
tell?






"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...


> Here In Oregon > wrote:
>>Any opinions on subwoofer quality and output while considering the best
>>bang
>>for the buck. I am looking for a self-powered subwoofer with a front
>>mounted driver design that has an extended low end and a tight bottom.
>
> To match what mains in what room, with what goal?
>
>>I will be using a high quality external crossover.
>
> What kind with what filters?
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[DC]

Here In Oregon wrote:

>>What kind with what filters?
>
>
> Never mind,.. now that is crossing the line and giving away my trade
> secrets.
> There is enough competition out there already and no I wasn't born yesterday
> but last month.


Your secret is safe with me.

[Here In Oregon]

Well, I haven't actually bought that one yet (crossover that is). I am the
artist/producer and I feel more like a purchasing agent these days. I have
two other associates here all multitasking almost 24/7 with a deadline. We
have a record contract and are upgrading my studio all across the board with
a very good engineer who is working hard to fit in with my budget and the
equipment I already have. Yeah,...I was going to go to LA (Record Plant)
then it was New York, then it was Nashville and then I looked at all of my
gear and then realized we are going to have to do this all over again and
again. I considered the hotels, blocking time, etc. I have done this before
(major studios that is) and I wanted a more relaxing environment here at my
studio with a great room but lacking acoustic treatment and a myriad of
other things. I truly have purchased it seems like a thousand items as of
late for the engineer who I have worked with before in state of the art
studios and now my studio has been almost completely redesigned. I have
never worked so hard in my life. Therapeutic rant over. May the recording
begin. Uggghhhh! We are still around a couple of weeks away. Remember I am
sleep deprived so anything I have said cannot be used against me.



"DC" > wrote in message
...
> Here In Oregon wrote:
>
>>>What kind with what filters?
>>
>>
>> Never mind,.. now that is crossing the line and giving away my trade
>> secrets.
>> There is enough competition out there already and no I wasn't born
>> yesterday but last month.
>
>
> Your secret is safe with me.

[Paul Stamler]

"Here In Oregon" > wrote in message
. ..
> Well, I haven't actually bought that one yet (crossover that is). I am the
> artist/producer and I feel more like a purchasing agent these days. I have
> two other associates here all multitasking almost 24/7 with a deadline. We
> have a record contract and are upgrading my studio all across the board
with
> a very good engineer who is working hard to fit in with my budget and the
> equipment I already have. Yeah,...I was going to go to LA (Record Plant)
> then it was New York, then it was Nashville and then I looked at all of my
> gear and then realized we are going to have to do this all over again and
> again. I considered the hotels, blocking time, etc. I have done this
before
> (major studios that is) and I wanted a more relaxing environment here at
my
> studio with a great room but lacking acoustic treatment and a myriad of
> other things. I truly have purchased it seems like a thousand items as of
> late for the engineer who I have worked with before in state of the art
> studios and now my studio has been almost completely redesigned. I have
> never worked so hard in my life. Therapeutic rant over. May the recording
> begin. Uggghhhh! We are still around a couple of weeks away. Remember I
am
> sleep deprived so anything I have said cannot be used against me.

Get some sleep before you start to record.

Peace,
Paul

[Here In Oregon]

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in message news:CzmQh.10392

> Get some sleep before you start to record.
>
> Peace,
> Paul

Thanks Paul,... just a few more purchasing decisions today (tomorrow) and
then tomorrow we are off again to the electronic store for the upteen time.
Let's see, we were researching isolation feet for the subs and are narrowing
down our choices on them.

Bump!





...
> "Here In Oregon" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Well, I haven't actually bought that one yet (crossover that is). I am
>> the
>> artist/producer and I feel more like a purchasing agent these days. I
>> have
>> two other associates here all multitasking almost 24/7 with a deadline.
>> We
>> have a record contract and are upgrading my studio all across the board
> with
>> a very good engineer who is working hard to fit in with my budget and the
>> equipment I already have. Yeah,...I was going to go to LA (Record Plant)
>> then it was New York, then it was Nashville and then I looked at all of
>> my
>> gear and then realized we are going to have to do this all over again and
>> again. I considered the hotels, blocking time, etc. I have done this
> before
>> (major studios that is) and I wanted a more relaxing environment here at
> my
>> studio with a great room but lacking acoustic treatment and a myriad of
>> other things. I truly have purchased it seems like a thousand items as
>> of
>> late for the engineer who I have worked with before in state of the art
>> studios and now my studio has been almost completely redesigned. I have
>> never worked so hard in my life. Therapeutic rant over. May the
>> recording
>> begin. Uggghhhh! We are still around a couple of weeks away. Remember I
> am
>> sleep deprived so anything I have said cannot be used against me.
>
> Get some sleep before you start to record.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Apr 2, 7:59 pm, "Here In Oregon" > wrote:
> Any opinions on subwoofer quality and output while considering the best bang
> for the buck. I am looking for a self-powered subwoofer with a front
> mounted driver design that has an extended low end and a tight bottom.
>
> I will be using a high quality external crossover.

look for outlaw audio....LFM-2 with the Velodyne SMS-1 Room Correction
Device

< http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/index.html >

[Scott Dorsey]

Here In Oregon > wrote:
>>To match what mains in what room, with what goal?
>
>In this case, Event 20/20/Bas, an acoustically treated nice sounding medium
>rare large room (Do you want the dimensions?) with my newly acquired as of
>three hours ago Apogee AD-16X, Benchmark DAC-1, Billboard Adult Contemporary
>top ten.

Okay, the problem with the 20/20 is that it really has no real low end,
which means you need a woofer, not a subwoofer. This means you're going to
have to cross over really high.

>> What kind with what filters?
>
>Never mind,.. now that is crossing the line and giving away my trade
>secrets.

Using cheap consumer-grade monitor speakers with an off-the shelf crossover
is a trade secret?

I'll tell you that you MIGHT be able to make the Hsu Research box go up
high enough for the job, IF you can use a crossover with really sharp
filters. But I think you're stuck with using a sub that doesn't go so
deep, because you need to compromise on the other end of the spectrum in
order to make them integrate with the mains.

But yes, I would like the room dimensions, since it tells you at least
where you should be expecting room problems, and how low you can expect
accurate response under the best of circumstances. If you are mixing in
a square room with a huge honking room mode at 35 Hz, there's no reason
to get a sub that brings your -3dB corner down to 20 Hz. You're just
wasting money for performance you won't get.

Notice also that using one sub crossed over high means you lose all your
low end imaging, but for AC music that's probably not a big deal.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>On Apr 2, 7:59 pm, "Here In Oregon" > wrote:
>> Any opinions on subwoofer quality and output while considering the best bang
>> for the buck. I am looking for a self-powered subwoofer with a front
>> mounted driver design that has an extended low end and a tight bottom.
>>
>> I will be using a high quality external crossover.
>
>look for outlaw audio....LFM-2 with the Velodyne SMS-1 Room Correction
>Device
>
>< http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/index.html >

Is there a real data sheet on this thing? It claims to go up to 180 Hz
before it drops 2dB... if it actually has reasonable headroom up that
high it might actually be a good choice for the 20/20. And it sure is
cheaply priced.

Note that the internal crossover is ONLY half a crossover... it is a
lowpass but there is no high pass for the mains. So you will still need
an outboard crossover if you want to use it properly.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On Apr 3, 8:44 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

> Note that the internal crossover is ONLY half a crossover... it is a
> lowpass but there is no high pass for the mains. So you will still need
> an outboard crossover if you want to use it properly.

a) some folks would prefer that the mains run full range
( or as full as they run) less phase anomalies...

b) the velodyne is recommended for properly tuning the system.

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>On Apr 3, 8:44 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> Note that the internal crossover is ONLY half a crossover... it is a
>> lowpass but there is no high pass for the mains. So you will still need
>> an outboard crossover if you want to use it properly.
>
>a) some folks would prefer that the mains run full range
> ( or as full as they run) less phase anomalies...

No, WORSE phase anomalies, and also distortion issues. The main advantage
of the sub is that you are getting the low end out of the mains, so you
can turn the mains up higher without breakup problems or other distortion
issues. Remember the mains get nonlinear at the low corner but also using the
natural low-end rolloff of the mains as part of the crossover is a bad idea
because you now have more overlap between the mains and the sub (and therefore
more potential for phase cancellation) and no control over that overlap.
PLUS you have to make the slope of the low-pass match the slope of the high
pass effect on the mains.

The reason people run the mains full range is because they are cheap and
don't want to get a proper crossover or spend the time to set it up properly.
It's not an easy thing to do.

>b) the velodyne is recommended for properly tuning the system.

The velodyne what?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Deputy Dumbya Dawg[_2_]]

"Here In Oregon" > wrote in message
...
:
: > What kind with what filters?
:
: Never mind,.. now that is crossing the line and
giving away my trade
: secrets.
: There is enough competition out there already and no
I wasn't born yesterday
: but last month.
:
: I have been experiencing sleep deprivation for the
last two weeks. Can you
: tell?


When I read this it seems pretty funny that someone
with a "trade secret subwoofer crossover" needs advice
on subwoofers. In my world the subwoofer, crossover
and room are kind of one thing to be reckoned with.


peace and good luck finding your sub.

peace
dawg.

[Deputy Dumbya Dawg[_2_]]

"Here In Oregon" > wrote in message
<snip>
I wanted a more relaxing environment here at my
: studio with a great room but lacking acoustic
treatment and a myriad of
: other things.


Lacking acoustic treatment you will be served equally
well by just about any subwoofer you put into the sonic
soup. GO0o. FO0o.r it!


peace
dawg

[Deputy Dumbya Dawg[_2_]]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
: On Apr 3, 8:44 am, (Scott Dorsey)
wrote:
:
: > Note that the internal crossover is ONLY half a
crossover... it is a
: > lowpass but there is no high pass for the mains.
So you will still need
: > an outboard crossover if you want to use it
properly.
:
: a) some folks would prefer that the mains run full
range
: ( or as full as they run) less phase
anomalies...

This works especially well with closed box woofers
which have a very controlled 12dB/octave roll off below
Fc. As driven lower and lower in frequency, the box
rolls off the response so displacement does not
increase beyond where it is a Fc resonance.

Not so good with ported speakers which continue to
excurde at greater and greater displacement when driven
below port tuning resonance.

peace
dawg

[Arny Krueger]

"Here In Oregon" > wrote in message


> Any opinions on subwoofer quality and output while
> considering the best bang for the buck. I am looking for
> a self-powered subwoofer with a front mounted driver
> design that has an extended low end and a tight bottom.

> I will be using a high quality external crossover.

Whatever that means. Specifics?

Subwoofers are still a flavor of speaker where you can build your own and
get an economic advantage.

Check around and see what audiophiles are doing for build-it-yourself
subwoofers. My sources say these are some drivers to check out:

http://www.mach5audio.com/ MJ-18

www.ficaraudio.com Ficaraudio 18

[-zero[_2_]]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote:
>>On Apr 2, 7:59 pm, "Here In Oregon" > wrote:
>>> Any opinions on subwoofer quality and output while considering the best
>>> bang
>>> for the buck. I am looking for a self-powered subwoofer with a front
>>> mounted driver design that has an extended low end and a tight bottom.
>>>
>>> I will be using a high quality external crossover.
>>
>>look for outlaw audio....LFM-2 with the Velodyne SMS-1 Room Correction
>>Device
>>
>>< http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/index.html >
>
> Is there a real data sheet on this thing? It claims to go up to 180 Hz
> before it drops 2dB... if it actually has reasonable headroom up that
> high it might actually be a good choice for the 20/20. And it sure is
> cheaply priced.

I have become a big fan of HSU and noticed this:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/mbm-12.html


Has the amp and low-pass crossover.
If it meets the specs like my STF-2 did, I would also give this try.

-zero

[[email protected]]

On Apr 3, 11:11 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> > wrote:
> >On Apr 3, 8:44 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
> >> Note that the internal crossover is ONLY half a crossover... it is a
> >> lowpass but there is no high pass for the mains. So you will still need
> >> an outboard crossover if you want to use it properly.
>
> >a) some folks would prefer that the mains run full range
> > ( or as full as they run) less phase anomalies...
>
> No, WORSE phase anomalies, and also distortion issues. The main advantage
> of the sub is that you are getting the low end out of the mains, so you
> can turn the mains up higher without breakup problems or other distortion
> issues. Remember the mains get nonlinear at the low corner but also using the
> natural low-end rolloff of the mains as part of the crossover is a bad idea
> because you now have more overlap between the mains and the sub (and therefore
> more potential for phase cancellation) and no control over that overlap.
> PLUS you have to make the slope of the low-pass match the slope of the high
> pass effect on the mains.
>
> The reason people run the mains full range is because they are cheap and
> don't want to get a proper crossover or spend the time to set it up properly.
> It's not an easy thing to do.
>
> >b) the velodyne is recommended for properly tuning the system.
>
> The velodyne what?


"look for outlaw audio....LFM-2 with the Velodyne SMS-1 Room
Correction
Device "

[Here In Oregon]

> Okay, the problem with the 20/20 is that it really has no real low end,
> which means you need a woofer, not a subwoofer. This means you're going
> to
> have to cross over really high.

That's exactly what this enginner said last week and he wants two woofers.

> Using cheap consumer-grade monitor speakers with an off-the shelf
> crossover
> is a trade secret?

It was a joke and I answered the question in my next post,....geesh.

I have other monitors and I like the sound of my Event 20/20Bas. What are
you using Mr. Dorsey? Also, you are discounting what this engineer can do
with the equipment I have bought like EQ Mastering Processors, Paz
Analyzers, etc.etc.etc. I know music, 36 years of experience at all levels
and I know when it sounds right,... but I am no Audio Engineer, but know
enough about the role of the engineer to know this guy goes very deep like
you and many others in this group. Again, he takes things to the nth degree
and is an engineer's engineer if that makes sense. I call him "Hey
Einstein"! So make fun of my Event 20/20Bas, but I would refrain to quiet a
voice by dissing a product he uses and one who asked for opinions in this
very technical field of audio production. You obviously missed my point on
ear print. I had my ears tested by a Doctor of Audiology six weeks ago and
you might try the same someday; besides the majority of consumers are
listening to music on their ipods.

Thanks for your help!




"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Here In Oregon > wrote:
>>>To match what mains in what room, with what goal?
>>
>>In this case, Event 20/20/Bas, an acoustically treated nice sounding
>>medium
>>rare large room (Do you want the dimensions?) with my newly acquired as of
>>three hours ago Apogee AD-16X, Benchmark DAC-1, Billboard Adult
>>Contemporary
>>top ten.
>
> Okay, the problem with the 20/20 is that it really has no real low end,
> which means you need a woofer, not a subwoofer. This means you're going
> to
> have to cross over really high.
>
>>> What kind with what filters?
>>
>>Never mind,.. now that is crossing the line and giving away my trade
>>secrets.
>
> Using cheap consumer-grade monitor speakers with an off-the shelf
> crossover
> is a trade secret?
>
> I'll tell you that you MIGHT be able to make the Hsu Research box go up
> high enough for the job, IF you can use a crossover with really sharp
> filters. But I think you're stuck with using a sub that doesn't go so
> deep, because you need to compromise on the other end of the spectrum in
> order to make them integrate with the mains.
>
> But yes, I would like the room dimensions, since it tells you at least
> where you should be expecting room problems, and how low you can expect
> accurate response under the best of circumstances. If you are mixing in
> a square room with a huge honking room mode at 35 Hz, there's no reason
> to get a sub that brings your -3dB corner down to 20 Hz. You're just
> wasting money for performance you won't get.
>
> Notice also that using one sub crossed over high means you lose all your
> low end imaging, but for AC music that's probably not a big deal.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Here In Oregon]

Thanks again.

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message news:euthtr$6g7>
> I'll tell you that you MIGHT be able to make the Hsu Research box go up
> high enough for the job, IF you can use a crossover with really sharp
> filters. But I think you're stuck with using a sub that doesn't go so
> deep, because you need to compromise on the other end of the spectrum in
> order to make them integrate with the mains.
>
> But yes, I would like the room dimensions, since it tells you at least
> where you should be expecting room problems, and how low you can expect
> accurate response under the best of circumstances. If you are mixing in
> a square room with a huge honking room mode at 35 Hz, there's no reason
> to get a sub that brings your -3dB corner down to 20 Hz. You're just
> wasting money for performance you won't get.
>
> Notice also that using one sub crossed over high means you lose all your
> low end imaging, but for AC music that's probably not a big deal.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Here In Oregon]

Very interesting Arny and thanks again to all who have posted to this
thread.

I am still researching.

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Here In Oregon" > wrote in message
>
>
>> Any opinions on subwoofer quality and output while
>> considering the best bang for the buck. I am looking for
>> a self-powered subwoofer with a front mounted driver
>> design that has an extended low end and a tight bottom.
>
>> I will be using a high quality external crossover.
>
> Whatever that means. Specifics?
>
> Subwoofers are still a flavor of speaker where you can build your own and
> get an economic advantage.
>
> Check around and see what audiophiles are doing for build-it-yourself
> subwoofers. My sources say these are some drivers to check out:
>
> http://www.mach5audio.com/ MJ-18
>
> www.ficaraudio.com Ficaraudio 18
>
>
>
>
>

[Scott Dorsey]

Here In Oregon > wrote:
>> Okay, the problem with the 20/20 is that it really has no real low end,
>> which means you need a woofer, not a subwoofer. This means you're going
>> to
>> have to cross over really high.
>
>That's exactly what this enginner said last week and he wants two woofers.

I'll buy that. Having two woofers means you'll actually get reasonable
bass imaging.

>I have other monitors and I like the sound of my Event 20/20Bas. What are
>you using Mr. Dorsey?

Mostly I am mixing on Magnepans in the studio, but occasionally I will use
the NHT A-20 in the field. Sometimes I'll use the cheapo NHT Super One in
the field... they have no low end but the midrange is entirely reasonable
and they fit in the plane's overhead compartment. When I use the Super One,
though, sometimes I get real surprises when I get back in the studio and
hear the stuff on the mains.

> Also, you are discounting what this engineer can do
>with the equipment I have bought like EQ Mastering Processors, Paz
>Analyzers, etc.etc.etc.

He can't do ANYTHING if he can't hear what he is doing. The monitoring
system is the most important thing in the studio because without it you
are flying blind. If you are working in an untreated room with ANY monitoring
system you are very close to flying blind.

> So make fun of my Event 20/20Bas, but I would refrain to quiet a
>voice by dissing a product he uses and one who asked for opinions in this
>very technical field of audio production. You obviously missed my point on
>ear print. I had my ears tested by a Doctor of Audiology six weeks ago and
>you might try the same someday; besides the majority of consumers are
>listening to music on their ipods.

I am not making fun of them, I am saying that because they have such
restricted LF, it is going to severely limit the subwoofer you can purchase
to integrate with them. If you buy a Hsu, for example, you will find that
the point where the mains drop off and the point where the subs pick up is
not enough to give you proper overlap. This means you are almost certainly
stuck with a smaller device that can extend up higher without breaking up
and therefore aren't going to get severely deep bass out of them.

Actually, come to think of it, the subwoofer that NHT sold for the Super
Ones might actually do the job for you. They have 10" drivers with an
Fs around 16 Hz, but they can actually go up to 150 Hz without falling
apart completely. You'd need amps and crossovers, of course. And they
will NOT get very loud without bottoming out.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Here In Oregon]

>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message

>He can't do ANYTHING if he can't hear what he is doing. The monitoring
> system is the most important thing in the studio because without it you
> are flying blind. If you are working in an untreated room with ANY
> monitoring
> system you are very close to flying blind.


Your quotes are so similar to "Hey Einstein" that I am beginning to think
you are the same guys and he is writing this on one of the other computers
;)

I have spent thousands of dollars acoustically treating what I thought was a
good room to start with.
The room is roughly 16'x40' and has sloped cathedral ceilings with tung and
groove wood paneling
on the ceiling and carpet on the floor. The room is unique in many ways for
recording that I can't write about and you would have to see it. The
ceiling starts at around eight feet and goes up to roughly 13'7".

We are looking at the Infinity line of woofers and will be listening to the
8, 10's, and 12's tomorrow
among others and we are thinking that two tens would give us what we want.
We will be using a crossover for this monitoring set-up along with the other
monitors as well. "Hey Einstein" wants a front mounted driver design for
many reasons based on the room and foundation. Again this is not his name;
it's just what I call him. World class engineer though! Again,... my budget
is what he is having to contend with.



"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Here In Oregon > wrote:
>>> Okay, the problem with the 20/20 is that it really has no real low end,
>>> which means you need a woofer, not a subwoofer. This means you're going
>>> to
>>> have to cross over really high.
>>
>>That's exactly what this enginner said last week and he wants two woofers.
>
> I'll buy that. Having two woofers means you'll actually get reasonable
> bass imaging.
>
>>I have other monitors and I like the sound of my Event 20/20Bas. What are
>>you using Mr. Dorsey?
>
> Mostly I am mixing on Magnepans in the studio, but occasionally I will use
> the NHT A-20 in the field. Sometimes I'll use the cheapo NHT Super One in
> the field... they have no low end but the midrange is entirely reasonable
> and they fit in the plane's overhead compartment. When I use the Super
> One,
> though, sometimes I get real surprises when I get back in the studio and
> hear the stuff on the mains.
>
>> Also, you are discounting what this engineer can do
>>with the equipment I have bought like EQ Mastering Processors, Paz
>>Analyzers, etc.etc.etc.
>
> He can't do ANYTHING if he can't hear what he is doing. The monitoring
> system is the most important thing in the studio because without it you
> are flying blind. If you are working in an untreated room with ANY
> monitoring
> system you are very close to flying blind.
>
>> So make fun of my Event 20/20Bas, but I would refrain to quiet a
>>voice by dissing a product he uses and one who asked for opinions in this
>>very technical field of audio production. You obviously missed my point
>>on
>>ear print. I had my ears tested by a Doctor of Audiology six weeks ago
>>and
>>you might try the same someday; besides the majority of consumers are
>>listening to music on their ipods.
>
> I am not making fun of them, I am saying that because they have such
> restricted LF, it is going to severely limit the subwoofer you can
> purchase
> to integrate with them. If you buy a Hsu, for example, you will find that
> the point where the mains drop off and the point where the subs pick up is
> not enough to give you proper overlap. This means you are almost
> certainly
> stuck with a smaller device that can extend up higher without breaking up
> and therefore aren't going to get severely deep bass out of them.
>
> Actually, come to think of it, the subwoofer that NHT sold for the Super
> Ones might actually do the job for you. They have 10" drivers with an
> Fs around 16 Hz, but they can actually go up to 150 Hz without falling
> apart completely. You'd need amps and crossovers, of course. And they
> will NOT get very loud without bottoming out.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Here In Oregon]

> We are looking at the Infinity line of woofers and will be listening to
> the 8, 10's, and 12's tomorrow

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=PS210BK&cat=PSU&ser=PSS&Language=ENG&Region=USA&Country=US





"Here In Oregon" > wrote in message
. ..
> >"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>
>>He can't do ANYTHING if he can't hear what he is doing. The monitoring
>> system is the most important thing in the studio because without it you
>> are flying blind. If you are working in an untreated room with ANY
>> monitoring
>> system you are very close to flying blind.
>
>
> Your quotes are so similar to "Hey Einstein" that I am beginning to think
> you are the same guys and he is writing this on one of the other computers
> ;)
>
> I have spent thousands of dollars acoustically treating what I thought was
> a good room to start with.
> The room is roughly 16'x40' and has sloped cathedral ceilings with tung
> and groove wood paneling
> on the ceiling and carpet on the floor. The room is unique in many ways
> for recording that I can't write about and you would have to see it. The
> ceiling starts at around eight feet and goes up to roughly 13'7".
>
> We are looking at the Infinity line of woofers and will be listening to
> the 8, 10's, and 12's tomorrow
> among others and we are thinking that two tens would give us what we want.
> We will be using a crossover for this monitoring set-up along with the
> other monitors as well. "Hey Einstein" wants a front mounted driver design
> for many reasons based on the room and foundation. Again this is not his
> name; it's just what I call him. World class engineer though! Again,...
> my budget is what he is having to contend with.
>
>
>
> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Here In Oregon > wrote:
>>>> Okay, the problem with the 20/20 is that it really has no real low end,
>>>> which means you need a woofer, not a subwoofer. This means you're
>>>> going
>>>> to
>>>> have to cross over really high.
>>>
>>>That's exactly what this enginner said last week and he wants two
>>>woofers.
>>
>> I'll buy that. Having two woofers means you'll actually get reasonable
>> bass imaging.
>>
>>>I have other monitors and I like the sound of my Event 20/20Bas. What
>>>are
>>>you using Mr. Dorsey?
>>
>> Mostly I am mixing on Magnepans in the studio, but occasionally I will
>> use
>> the NHT A-20 in the field. Sometimes I'll use the cheapo NHT Super One
>> in
>> the field... they have no low end but the midrange is entirely reasonable
>> and they fit in the plane's overhead compartment. When I use the Super
>> One,
>> though, sometimes I get real surprises when I get back in the studio and
>> hear the stuff on the mains.
>>
>>> Also, you are discounting what this engineer can do
>>>with the equipment I have bought like EQ Mastering Processors, Paz
>>>Analyzers, etc.etc.etc.
>>
>> He can't do ANYTHING if he can't hear what he is doing. The monitoring
>> system is the most important thing in the studio because without it you
>> are flying blind. If you are working in an untreated room with ANY
>> monitoring
>> system you are very close to flying blind.
>>
>>> So make fun of my Event 20/20Bas, but I would refrain to quiet a
>>>voice by dissing a product he uses and one who asked for opinions in this
>>>very technical field of audio production. You obviously missed my point
>>>on
>>>ear print. I had my ears tested by a Doctor of Audiology six weeks ago
>>>and
>>>you might try the same someday; besides the majority of consumers are
>>>listening to music on their ipods.
>>
>> I am not making fun of them, I am saying that because they have such
>> restricted LF, it is going to severely limit the subwoofer you can
>> purchase
>> to integrate with them. If you buy a Hsu, for example, you will find
>> that
>> the point where the mains drop off and the point where the subs pick up
>> is
>> not enough to give you proper overlap. This means you are almost
>> certainly
>> stuck with a smaller device that can extend up higher without breaking up
>> and therefore aren't going to get severely deep bass out of them.
>>
>> Actually, come to think of it, the subwoofer that NHT sold for the Super
>> Ones might actually do the job for you. They have 10" drivers with an
>> Fs around 16 Hz, but they can actually go up to 150 Hz without falling
>> apart completely. You'd need amps and crossovers, of course. And they
>> will NOT get very loud without bottoming out.
>> --scott
>> --
>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
>

[hank alrich]

Here In Oregon wrote:

> In this case, Event 20/20/Bas

Hmmmmm... wouldn't it make some sense to get better mons before
sweating a sub?

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Scott Dorsey]

Here In Oregon > wrote:
>>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>
>>He can't do ANYTHING if he can't hear what he is doing. The monitoring
>> system is the most important thing in the studio because without it you
>> are flying blind. If you are working in an untreated room with ANY
>> monitoring
>> system you are very close to flying blind.
>
>
>Your quotes are so similar to "Hey Einstein" that I am beginning to think
>you are the same guys and he is writing this on one of the other computers
>;)

You'll find just about anyone who has been in the studio for very long
will have the same basic statements.

>I have spent thousands of dollars acoustically treating what I thought was a
>good room to start with.
>The room is roughly 16'x40' and has sloped cathedral ceilings with tung and
>groove wood paneling
>on the ceiling and carpet on the floor. The room is unique in many ways for
>recording that I can't write about and you would have to see it. The
>ceiling starts at around eight feet and goes up to roughly 13'7".

Yes, but what does it sound like? Close your ears, clap your hands and
what do you hear? Sing a scale... does it sound big or does it sound
boxy?

The sloped ceiling is a big deal and helps you out a lot. Look for big
problems around 70 and 140 Hz. Take a look at the room mode calculator
at http://www.mcsquared.com/modecalc.htm but ignore the oblique mode
calculations because the simplified algorithm won't take the sloped ceiling
into account. The old Altec Handbook has the math to do modes in sloped
ceiling rooms with a hand calculator, though.

>We are looking at the Infinity line of woofers and will be listening to the
>8, 10's, and 12's tomorrow
>among others and we are thinking that two tens would give us what we want.
>We will be using a crossover for this monitoring set-up along with the other
>monitors as well. "Hey Einstein" wants a front mounted driver design for
>many reasons based on the room and foundation. Again this is not his name;
>it's just what I call him. World class engineer though! Again,... my budget
>is what he is having to contend with.

Which Infinity line? The Infinity monitor subs aren't going to handle
the higher frequencies well enough... you will probably be stuck with
the consumer stuff like the PS10 and PS12. I think those will go up
high enough although you may find the low end corner isn't as low as
the NHT box. They aren't as lumpy as most consumer subs, though.

And yes, the front-mounted driver is important because you're crossing
over so high. If you were using it as a regular subwoofer and crossing
over down around 50 Hz, it wouldn't matter where the driver was pointed,
but remember you're probably talking about a crossover point as high
as 100 Hz, so you have an appreciable amount of stuff at 200 Hz coming
out of the sub. This makes positioning really critical.

I think you would do better with the money to use larger mains in the first
place, but if he is comfortable mixing on the Events, I wouldn't take him
off of them.

I _would_ play some Jaco Pastorius records and listen to acoustic bass
runs, and see how much actual detail and pitch you can hear in the bass
notes. You'll hear a big difference between boxes.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[ostaz]

Don't laugh, but I'm using a 16 year old Infinity Ps-110 Infinitessimal
servo controlled sub and it's fine...as long as you've got it dialed in to
the room. I actually own three, one of which I actually bought in 1991.
The other two, I picked up on Ebay quite reasonably. My studio is a
converted master bedroom so it is only about 12X17 feet. It doesn't take
much to fill it up with some low end. Talk about flying blind, before I got
the sub, I was only monitoring on my passive Tannoy Reveals and I had no
clue on what was going on below about 85hz!

Pete

"Here In Oregon" > wrote in message
. ..
> >"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>
>>He can't do ANYTHING if he can't hear what he is doing. The monitoring
>> system is the most important thing in the studio because without it you
>> are flying blind. If you are working in an untreated room with ANY
>> monitoring
>> system you are very close to flying blind.
>
>
> Your quotes are so similar to "Hey Einstein" that I am beginning to think
> you are the same guys and he is writing this on one of the other computers
> ;)
>
> I have spent thousands of dollars acoustically treating what I thought was
> a good room to start with.
> The room is roughly 16'x40' and has sloped cathedral ceilings with tung
> and groove wood paneling
> on the ceiling and carpet on the floor. The room is unique in many ways
> for recording that I can't write about and you would have to see it. The
> ceiling starts at around eight feet and goes up to roughly 13'7".
>
> We are looking at the Infinity line of woofers and will be listening to
> the 8, 10's, and 12's tomorrow
> among others and we are thinking that two tens would give us what we want.
> We will be using a crossover for this monitoring set-up along with the
> other monitors as well. "Hey Einstein" wants a front mounted driver design
> for many reasons based on the room and foundation. Again this is not his
> name; it's just what I call him. World class engineer though! Again,...
> my budget is what he is having to contend with.
>
>
>
> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Here In Oregon > wrote:
>>>> Okay, the problem with the 20/20 is that it really has no real low end,
>>>> which means you need a woofer, not a subwoofer. This means you're
>>>> going
>>>> to
>>>> have to cross over really high.
>>>
>>>That's exactly what this enginner said last week and he wants two
>>>woofers.
>>
>> I'll buy that. Having two woofers means you'll actually get reasonable
>> bass imaging.
>>
>>>I have other monitors and I like the sound of my Event 20/20Bas. What
>>>are
>>>you using Mr. Dorsey?
>>
>> Mostly I am mixing on Magnepans in the studio, but occasionally I will
>> use
>> the NHT A-20 in the field. Sometimes I'll use the cheapo NHT Super One
>> in
>> the field... they have no low end but the midrange is entirely reasonable
>> and they fit in the plane's overhead compartment. When I use the Super
>> One,
>> though, sometimes I get real surprises when I get back in the studio and
>> hear the stuff on the mains.
>>
>>> Also, you are discounting what this engineer can do
>>>with the equipment I have bought like EQ Mastering Processors, Paz
>>>Analyzers, etc.etc.etc.
>>
>> He can't do ANYTHING if he can't hear what he is doing. The monitoring
>> system is the most important thing in the studio because without it you
>> are flying blind. If you are working in an untreated room with ANY
>> monitoring
>> system you are very close to flying blind.
>>
>>> So make fun of my Event 20/20Bas, but I would refrain to quiet a
>>>voice by dissing a product he uses and one who asked for opinions in this
>>>very technical field of audio production. You obviously missed my point
>>>on
>>>ear print. I had my ears tested by a Doctor of Audiology six weeks ago
>>>and
>>>you might try the same someday; besides the majority of consumers are
>>>listening to music on their ipods.
>>
>> I am not making fun of them, I am saying that because they have such
>> restricted LF, it is going to severely limit the subwoofer you can
>> purchase
>> to integrate with them. If you buy a Hsu, for example, you will find
>> that
>> the point where the mains drop off and the point where the subs pick up
>> is
>> not enough to give you proper overlap. This means you are almost
>> certainly
>> stuck with a smaller device that can extend up higher without breaking up
>> and therefore aren't going to get severely deep bass out of them.
>>
>> Actually, come to think of it, the subwoofer that NHT sold for the Super
>> Ones might actually do the job for you. They have 10" drivers with an
>> Fs around 16 Hz, but they can actually go up to 150 Hz without falling
>> apart completely. You'd need amps and crossovers, of course. And they
>> will NOT get very loud without bottoming out.
>> --scott
>> --
>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
>

[Here In Oregon]

Yeah, I was a guy many years ago that was touting how I had a four monitor
system set with switching capabilty and many people on another forum thought
that was stupid.

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
> Here In Oregon wrote:
>
>> In this case, Event 20/20/Bas
>
> Hmmmmm... wouldn't it make some sense to get better mons before
> sweating a sub?
>
> --
> ha
> Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[hank alrich]

Here In Oregon wrote:

> Yeah, I was a guy many years ago that was touting how I had a four monitor
> system set with switching capabilty and many people on another forum thought
> that was stupid.

Now that I've read Einstein is happy with them, it makes good sense to
use them.

I prefer a more full-range cabinet without a sub. I've been using my
monitors for so long that I no longer have multiple systems to switch
between, but I have done that in the past and may well do so again if I
change systems. That'll probably come down to who dies first, me, or the
JBL 4315's.

> "hank alrich" wrote...
> > Here In Oregon wrote:
> >
> >> In this case, Event 20/20/Bas
> >
> > Hmmmmm... wouldn't it make some sense to get better mons before
> > sweating a sub?

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Scott Dorsey]

hank alrich > wrote:
>
>I prefer a more full-range cabinet without a sub. I've been using my
>monitors for so long that I no longer have multiple systems to switch
>between, but I have done that in the past and may well do so again if I
>change systems. That'll probably come down to who dies first, me, or the
>JBL 4315's.

Yeah, but that costs actual money, and people don't want to pay real money
for real monitoring any longer. That's why you are seeing so many of these
satellite-sub systems all over the place. The performance is pretty good
for the money. The bass imaging stinks but most people don't care about
that, and with careful engineering you can put all the crossover artifacts
into the lower midrange where people don't notice them so much.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Here In Oregon]

>That'll probably come down to who dies first, me, or the JBL 4315's.

Ouch! Hank,... you would be sorely missed.



"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
> Here In Oregon wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I was a guy many years ago that was touting how I had a four
>> monitor
>> system set with switching capabilty and many people on another forum
>> thought
>> that was stupid.
>
> Now that I've read Einstein is happy with them, it makes good sense to
> use them.
>
> I prefer a more full-range cabinet without a sub. I've been using my
> monitors for so long that I no longer have multiple systems to switch
> between, but I have done that in the past and may well do so again if I
> change systems. That'll probably come down to who dies first, me, or the
> JBL 4315's.
>
>> "hank alrich" wrote...
>> > Here In Oregon wrote:
>> >
>> >> In this case, Event 20/20/Bas
>> >
>> > Hmmmmm... wouldn't it make some sense to get better mons before
>> > sweating a sub?
>
> --
> ha
> Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Edwin Hurwitz]

In article >,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>
> I _would_ play some Jaco Pastorius records and listen to acoustic bass
> runs, and see how much actual detail and pitch you can hear in the bass
> notes. You'll hear a big difference between boxes.
> --scott



Which Jaco albums have acoustic bass on them? I know he never recorded
on upright and I can't think of which of his albums have guest players
on them.

I love me some good Jaco! I consider myself very lucky to have seen him
twice at his peak.

Edwin