mic direct to video camera?

[JL]

The camera is a miniDV Canon GL2 which has a 3.5 mm stereo mic input
that accepts external unbalanced mic level sources; no phantom power.
Is it possible (or advisable) to go direct to the camera's mic input
with a pair of self-powered condenser microphones using an XLR (x2) to
stereo-mini Y-adapter? The cable length from mics to camera would be
10' to 20'.

I'm recording an acoustic guitar and would like better sound than what
I can get with the camera's onboard mic. Any advice on this setup or
suggestions for self-powered condenser mics $400-$600 (pair) would be
appreciated.

JL

[Richard Crowley]

"JL" wrote ...
> The camera is a miniDV Canon GL2 which has a 3.5 mm stereo mic input
> that accepts external unbalanced mic level sources; no phantom power.
> Is it possible (or advisable) to go direct to the camera's mic input
> with a pair of self-powered condenser microphones using an XLR (x2) to
> stereo-mini Y-adapter? The cable length from mics to camera would be
> 10' to 20'.
>
> I'm recording an acoustic guitar and would like better sound than what
> I can get with the camera's onboard mic.

A $5 "computer mic" that is closer to the guitar would sound better than
almost any onboard camera mic. Not only are they likely to be cheap
(<$1) electret capsules, but they are in almost the worst possible
location.

Watch out for the "plug-in-power" from typical camcorder 3.5mm
inputs. I have published some wiring diagrams on my website...
http://www.rcrowley.com/CamAdapt.htm

> Any advice on this setup

Guitar micing for video was extensively discussed here only a
month or two ago.

> or suggestions for self-powered condenser mics $400-$600
> (pair) would be appreciated.

And "best mic for $xxx" is discussed almost continuously.
Google Groups will provide archives of previous discussions.

[Don Pearce]

On 22 Mar 2007 12:32:11 -0700, "JL" > wrote:

>The camera is a miniDV Canon GL2 which has a 3.5 mm stereo mic input
>that accepts external unbalanced mic level sources; no phantom power.
>Is it possible (or advisable) to go direct to the camera's mic input
>with a pair of self-powered condenser microphones using an XLR (x2) to
>stereo-mini Y-adapter? The cable length from mics to camera would be
>10' to 20'.
>
>I'm recording an acoustic guitar and would like better sound than what
>I can get with the camera's onboard mic. Any advice on this setup or
>suggestions for self-powered condenser mics $400-$600 (pair) would be
>appreciated.
>
>JL

If you are working close to your computer, I would suggest you record
your sound to that instead of the camera. That way you can do all the
processing work it may need instantly in a DAW. Put sound and vision
back together later on the same machine.

It really helps to use a clapper board at the start for synchronizing.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Richard Crowley]

"GregS" wrote...
> Some of the full function cams also have line in,

I have a ~$5000 Sony DSR-300 and the "line inputs" consist of the
mic inputs with a pad on the front. Alas, this is typical even of most
"pro" cameras. :-(

[GregS]

In article . com>, "JL" > wrote:
>The camera is a miniDV Canon GL2 which has a 3.5 mm stereo mic input
>that accepts external unbalanced mic level sources; no phantom power.
>Is it possible (or advisable) to go direct to the camera's mic input
>with a pair of self-powered condenser microphones using an XLR (x2) to
>stereo-mini Y-adapter? The cable length from mics to camera would be
>10' to 20'.
>
>I'm recording an acoustic guitar and would like better sound than what
>I can get with the camera's onboard mic. Any advice on this setup or
>suggestions for self-powered condenser mics $400-$600 (pair) would be
>appreciated.

Some of the full function cams also have line in, but having an isolated
mic is good, and powering it from the wall can create loops.
Keep in mind the unit will have an automatic level control
which may be good or bad, depending on how you look at it.

My Sony cam has a prety darn good mic and excellant overload headroom.

greg

[Scott Dorsey]

JL > wrote:
>The camera is a miniDV Canon GL2 which has a 3.5 mm stereo mic input
>that accepts external unbalanced mic level sources; no phantom power.

I'm sorry.

>Is it possible (or advisable) to go direct to the camera's mic input
>with a pair of self-powered condenser microphones using an XLR (x2) to
>stereo-mini Y-adapter? The cable length from mics to camera would be
>10' to 20'.

Maybe, but you're pushing it as far as levels go. Can you even disable
the AGC on that thing?

>I'm recording an acoustic guitar and would like better sound than what
>I can get with the camera's onboard mic. Any advice on this setup or
>suggestions for self-powered condenser mics $400-$600 (pair) would be
>appreciated.

Double-system is the way to go, I strongly suspect.

And I'd take a single Josephson C4 or A-T 4053 over a stereo pair in
the same price range, hands down. Especially for video where most of
the listeners won't have accurate stereo imaging anyway.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[JL]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Soundhaspriority wrote:
> That's how I would do it. Sounds very "pro" to me.

Thanks. I wasn't sure if the concept was sound.


Richard Crowley wrote:
> Watch out for the "plug-in-power" from typical camcorder 3.5mm
> inputs.

I'm not sure what you mean. Could this damage the mic?


Don Pearce wrote:
> If you are working close to your computer, I would suggest you
> record your sound to that instead of the camera. That way you
> can do all the processing work it may need instantly in a DAW.
> Put sound and vision back together later on the same machine.
> It really helps to use a clapper board at the start for
> synchronizing.

Yes, this sounds like a better way to go but I'm trying to come up
with a simple solution for times when I don't have a computer/phantom
power nearby.


GregS wrote:
> Some of the full function cams also have line in, but having an
> isolated mic is good, and powering it from the wall can create
> loops. Keep in mind the unit will have an automatic level control
> which may be good or bad, depending on how you look at it.

Would a battery-powered condenser mic create loops? The GL2 has
manual level controls.


Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Double-system is the way to go, I strongly suspect. And I'd take
> a single Josephson C4 or A-T 4053 over a stereo pair in the same
> price range, hands down. Especially for video where most of
> the listeners won't have accurate stereo imaging anyway.

Double system? I couldn't find information on the Josephson C4 but
the AT4053 requires phantom power.

JL

[Scott Dorsey]

JL > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Double-system is the way to go, I strongly suspect. And I'd take
>> a single Josephson C4 or A-T 4053 over a stereo pair in the same
>> price range, hands down. Especially for video where most of
>> the listeners won't have accurate stereo imaging anyway.
>
>Double system?

Double system. You record the audio on an audio recorder, the video on
a video recorder. You slate at the beginning of each take, and then you
line the two up together in editing. That way you don't have to deal with
the junk audio electronics in the video camera.

I couldn't find information on the Josephson C4 but
>the AT4053 requires phantom power.

So does the Josephson, which is probably described at www.josephson.com.
You'll find just about any condenser mike worth using does. If you need
to use an outboard phantom supply, Stewart makes a good one for cheap.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[JL]

On Mar 22, 5:53 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> JL > wrote:
> >Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >> Double-system is the way to go, I strongly suspect. And I'd take
> >> a single Josephson C4 or A-T 4053 over a stereo pair in the same
> >> price range, hands down. Especially for video where most of
> >> the listeners won't have accurate stereo imaging anyway.
>
> >Double system?
>
> Double system. You record the audio on an audio recorder, the video on
> a video recorder. You slate at the beginning of each take, and then you
> line the two up together in editing. That way you don't have to deal with
> the junk audio electronics in the video camera.
>
> I couldn't find information on the Josephson C4 but
>
> >the AT4053 requires phantom power.
>
> So does the Josephson, which is probably described atwww.josephson.com.
> You'll find just about any condenser mike worth using does. If you need
> to use an outboard phantom supply, Stewart makes a good one for cheap.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


Thanks for the explanation. The double system makes sense, as does
Don's suggestion of going directly to the computer with audio which is
an option I have available to me now. I'll have to give that some
more consideration. I missed the Josephson C42 when I first looked on
their website as I was looking for mics that had an internal battery
power option in addition to phantom power. Thanks again.

JL

[Scott Dorsey]

JL > wrote:
>Thanks for the explanation. The double system makes sense, as does
>Don's suggestion of going directly to the computer with audio which is
>an option I have available to me now. I'll have to give that some
>more consideration.

Give it a try. If you record directly to the computer, you then just
have to transfer the video into the computer and you're ready to edit.

If you don't have a slate, just clearly say the scene and take numbers
while showing the numbers on your hands, then clap your hands together.
When you edit, use the clap to synch everything up and it will stay
locked because both the computer and the video recorder will be locked
to pretty accurate standards these days.

>I missed the Josephson C42 when I first looked on
>their website as I was looking for mics that had an internal battery
>power option in addition to phantom power. Thanks again.

You limit yourself severely if you want battery power. But a battery-powered
phantom supply isn't all that expensive.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Marc Heusser]

In article . com>,
"JL" > wrote:

> The camera is a miniDV Canon GL2 which has a 3.5 mm stereo mic input
> that accepts external unbalanced mic level sources; no phantom power.
> Is it possible (or advisable) to go direct to the camera's mic input
> with a pair of self-powered condenser microphones using an XLR (x2) to
> stereo-mini Y-adapter? The cable length from mics to camera would be
> 10' to 20'.
>
> I'm recording an acoustic guitar and would like better sound than what
> I can get with the camera's onboard mic. Any advice on this setup or
> suggestions for self-powered condenser mics $400-$600 (pair) would be
> appreciated.
>
> JL

I have used Sennheiser K6/ME64 (or any other like ME66 Š) successfully
as a self (battery) powered option with Canon Cameras.
The improvement over the built-in mic is huge, people usually commenting
on the much sharper image :-)
Sennheiser also offers a budget option: the MKE300, specifically to be
mounted on the accessory shoe of the camera, and with a 3.5mm plug. I'd
assume this to be an improvement too.
It seems Canon also offers as an option a module for XLR inputs,
unfortunately not phantom powered.

I have used adapters for XLR to 3.5 mm plugs from
http://www.studio1productions.com/xlr-pro.htm successfully with very
long cables (20m), and can recommend them.

The GL2 seems to have good control (ie manual level), so the only weak
point seems to be the 3.5mm plug.

HTH

Marc

--
Switzerland/Europe
<http://www.heusser.com>
remove CHEERS and from MERCIAL to get valid e-mail

[Richard Crowley]

"JL" wrote ...
> Richard Crowley wrote:
>> Watch out for the "plug-in-power" from typical camcorder
>> 3.5mm inputs.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean. Could this damage the mic?

Camcorders (and other small consumer recorders like
MD, et.al.) put ~5VDC on the mic input to provide power to
typical small electret condenser mic capsules. This may
not be detrimental to *some* microphones, but I wouldn't
risk it. I would use a DC blocking capacitor when connecting
a pro microphone to a "Plug-in power" mic input.

You can think of "plug-in power" as the low-end consumer
equivalent of phantom power except much lower voltage
and single-ended/unbalanced.

[JL]

Thanks again everyone for the helpful responses.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Give it a try. If you record directly to the computer, you then just
> have to transfer the video into the computer and you're ready to edit.

> If you don't have a slate, just clearly say the scene and take numbers
> while showing the numbers on your hands, then clap your hands together.
> When you edit, use the clap to synch everything up and it will stay
> locked because both the computer and the video recorder will be locked
>to pretty accurate standards these days.

> You limit yourself severely if you want battery power. But a battery-powered
> phantom supply isn't all that expensive.

Point well taken. I’ll have to look into the battery-powered phantom
supply options and see how going this route fits into my overall
budget.


Marc Heusser wrote:
> I have used Sennheiser K6/ME64 (or any other like ME66 Å*) successfully
> as a self (battery) powered option with Canon Cameras.
> The improvement over the built-in mic is huge, people usually commenting
> on the much sharper image :-)
> Sennheiser also offers a budget option: the MKE300, specifically to be
> mounted on the accessory shoe of the camera, and with a 3.5mm plug. I'd
> assume this to be an improvement too.
> It seems Canon also offers as an option a module for XLR inputs,
> unfortunately not phantom powered.

> I have used adapters for XLR to 3.5 mm plugs from
> http://www.studio1productions.com/xlr-pro.htm successfully with very
> long cables (20m), and can recommend them.

> The GL2 seems to have good control (ie manual level), so the only weak
> point seems to be the 3.5mm plug.

Thanks for the mic suggestion; a pair of ME64/K6 exceeds my budget but
a single ME64/K6 plus the studio1 xlr-pro doesn’t, and may provide the
simplest solution to improving the sound over the camera’s on-board
mic.


Chel van Gennip wrote:
> For all the video's on my son's website I use a double system. It is
> better to asume the audio in camcorders is bad. Bad microphones, bad
> preamps, bad AGC, bad AD converters, etc. The chances you find anything
> decent are minimal. If you record music, the "sync clap" is not really
> needed. It is not to difficult to match two audio tracks. I normally first
> take the video, ad some titles, and save the result both as video and as a
> just audio track. After that I go to my DAW, import the audio track as a
> guide, and align the audio from the audio recorder to this track. The
> advantage of the DAW is that alignment can be more precise, video software
> often is frame based, so you only can shift audio whole frames. On the
> website http://www.serg.vangennip.com/www/video.html you find a lot of
> results. Even in long pieces, like the 30 minute Mussorgsky Pictures sync
> is not a problem. You find a seperate short (5min) sample in high-res at
> http://www.vangennip.com/Serg_van_Gennip_Appassionata_3mvmt.html

Thanks for your input and for sharing the very nice performance by
your son. (Beethoven sonatas are some of my favorite solo piano
music.) There is a nice subtle stereo effect on the recording but I
only see one mic. Did you record with multiple mics or achieve this
in post?


Richard Crowley wrote:
> Camcorders (and other small consumer recorders like
> MD, et.al.) put ~5VDC on the mic input to provide power to
> typical small electret condenser mic capsules. This may
> not be detrimental to *some* microphones, but I wouldn't
> risk it. I would use a DC blocking capacitor when connecting
> a pro microphone to a "Plug-in power" mic input.

> You can think of "plug-in power" as the low-end consumer
> equivalent of phantom power except much lower voltage
> and single-ended/unbalanced.

Thanks for the heads-up and clarification. Although the specs on the
GL2 do not mention the presence of plug-in-power at the mic input
terminal I can check this with a meter to be safe.

[JL]

On Mar 23, 3:30 pm, Chel van Gennip > wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:07:18 +0100, JL wrote:
> > Chel van Gennip wrote:
> >> For all the video's on my son's website I use a double system. It is
> >> better to asume the audio in camcorders is bad. Bad microphones, bad
> >> preamps, bad AGC, bad AD converters, etc. The chances you find anything
> >> decent are minimal. If you record music, the "sync clap" is not really
> >> needed. It is not to difficult to match two audio tracks. I normally
> >> first take the video, ad some titles, and save the result both as video
> >> and as a just audio track. After that I go to my DAW, import the audio
> >> track as a guide, and align the audio from the audio recorder to this
> >> track. The advantage of the DAW is that alignment can be more precise,
> >> video software often is frame based, so you only can shift audio whole
> >> frames. On the websitehttp://www.serg.vangennip.com/www/video.htmlyou
> >> find a lot of results. Even in long pieces, like the 30 minute
> >> Mussorgsky Pictures sync is not a problem. You find a seperate short
> >> (5min) sample in high-res at
> >>http://www.vangennip.com/Serg_van_Gennip_Appassionata_3mvmt.html
>
> > Thanks for your input and for sharing the very nice performance by your
> > son. (Beethoven sonatas are some of my favorite solo piano music.) There
> > is a nice subtle stereo effect on the recording but I only see one mic.
> > Did you record with multiple mics or achieve this in post?
>
> I had failed with open air concerts before: rain, wind, churchbells, piza
> delivery etc., so I used 2 PZM's (Crown PZM30D) inside the lid of the
> piano:http://www.vangennip.com/grachtenconcert.jpg
>
> --
> Chel van Gennip
> Visit Serg van Gennip's sitehttp://www.serg.vangennip.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ahh... very good. The photo tells all. Thanks.

JL