_directional_ ribbon microphones?

[AndyP]

Hello,

I don't know of any hypercardioid ribbon mics besides the Beyers (M160,
M260, M500). Are there other models?

Thanks,
Andy

[Scott Dorsey]

AndyP > wrote:
>
>I don't know of any hypercardioid ribbon mics besides the Beyers (M160,
>M260, M500). Are there other models?

RCA BK-5. (Okay, it's not a conventional hypercardioid, but there is a rear
lobe at some frequency).

Oktava ML-219.

You can sort of do a hypercardioid with a 77DX too.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[AndyP]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> RCA BK-5. (Okay, it's not a conventional hypercardioid, but there is a
rear
> lobe at some frequency).
>
> Oktava ML-219.
>
> You can sort of do a hypercardioid with a 77DX too.
> --scott

Thanks Scott. Right now I'm using a couple of bidirectional ribbon mics that
I quite like. To cheat the pickup pattern I take a pop filter, replace the
fabric with a plexiglass disk having 3/4" thick foam on both sides (I had
the plexiglass left from the time I made a Jecklin disk. BTW thanks again
everyone here for the tips on getting a threaded rod for the mic clips, I
couldn't find one here in Italy. The disk turned out pretty decent and it
works) and position it on the back of the microphone. It's ok but doesn't
work very well with low frequencies, though.

Andy

[Scott Dorsey]

AndyP > wrote:
>
>Thanks Scott. Right now I'm using a couple of bidirectional ribbon mics that
>I quite like. To cheat the pickup pattern I take a pop filter, replace the
>fabric with a plexiglass disk having 3/4" thick foam on both sides (I had
>the plexiglass left from the time I made a Jecklin disk. BTW thanks again
>everyone here for the tips on getting a threaded rod for the mic clips, I
>couldn't find one here in Italy. The disk turned out pretty decent and it
>works) and position it on the back of the microphone. It's ok but doesn't
>work very well with low frequencies, though.

Why are you doing this? What's wrong with just regular Blumlein recording?

The rear lobe of the figure-8 is often very useful.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[AndyP]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Why are you doing this? What's wrong with just regular Blumlein
recording?
>
> The rear lobe of the figure-8 is often very useful.

Sometimes I want to spot mic a double bass or a guitar amp, the band is
playing in the same room and I want a certain amount of separation. Or
sometimes the room sounds so-so. I could use other microphones but I really
like the sound of ribbon mics.

BTW, I couldn't find the Oktava model you mentioned.

Thanks,
Andy

[Scott Dorsey]

AndyP > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Why are you doing this? What's wrong with just regular Blumlein
>recording?
>>
>> The rear lobe of the figure-8 is often very useful.
>
>Sometimes I want to spot mic a double bass or a guitar amp, the band is
>playing in the same room and I want a certain amount of separation. Or
>sometimes the room sounds so-so. I could use other microphones but I really
>like the sound of ribbon mics.

That's what gobos are for.

The BK-5 is actually a very good choice on guitar amps. The pattern on it
is a little weird, but it has good rejection on the whole.

>BTW, I couldn't find the Oktava model you mentioned.

Back in the seventies, Oktava made two ribbons, the MK-19 which was a
cardioid, and the MK-219 which was a hypercardioid. They both used a
labarynth arrangement more or less like the RCA 77DX, but not adjustable.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Carey Carlan]

"AndyP" > wrote in
:

>
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Why are you doing this? What's wrong with just regular Blumlein
> recording?
>>
>> The rear lobe of the figure-8 is often very useful.
>
> Sometimes I want to spot mic a double bass or a guitar amp, the band
> is playing in the same room and I want a certain amount of separation.
> Or sometimes the room sounds so-so. I could use other microphones but
> I really like the sound of ribbon mics.

Point the rear lobe somewhere dead, like the ceiling. The null is a full
circle around the microphone. That's room to hide a lot of band.

Remember that supercardioids and hypercardioids also have rear lobes, just
different position and shape.

[AndyP]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Back in the seventies, Oktava made two ribbons, the MK-19 which was a
> cardioid, and the MK-219 which was a hypercardioid. They both used a
> labarynth arrangement more or less like the RCA 77DX, but not adjustable.

I wonder why Oktava discontinued their directional ribbons. Figure of 8
ribbons are wonderful for a lot of things but sometimes they're real lobe is
just unmanageble.

Andy

[AndyP]

Carey Carlan wrote,

> Point the rear lobe somewhere dead, like the ceiling.

Yes. The problem is that when the ceiling is low I basically can't use
figure of 8 as the sound that reaches the rear lobe (pointing at the
ceiling) has still a lot of energy. Gobos are great but they aren't always
available.

> Remember that supercardioids and hypercardioids also have rear lobes, just
> different position and shape.

Yes, but aren't they usually a lot less sensitive to sound coming from the
back?

Thanks,
Andy

[Mike Rivers]

On Feb 6, 3:25 am, "AndyP" > wrote:

> I wonder why Oktava discontinued their directional ribbons. Figure of 8
> ribbons are wonderful for a lot of things but sometimes they're real lobe is
> just unmanageble.

Probably because most people today think that ribbon mics are only
figure-8 and they'd wonder what was wrong or compromised with one that
isn't. Besides, it's easier and cheaper to make a figure-8 ribbon
rather than a directional one, particularly if you can sell the fact
that it isn't perfect symmetrical (one side sounds a little different
from the other) as a feature rather than a design flaw. Besides, there
are plenty of smooth sounding directional mics as long as you're not
looking at inexpensive condensers.

It's all about marketing.

[Scott Dorsey]

AndyP > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Back in the seventies, Oktava made two ribbons, the MK-19 which was a
>> cardioid, and the MK-219 which was a hypercardioid. They both used a
>> labarynth arrangement more or less like the RCA 77DX, but not adjustable.
>
>I wonder why Oktava discontinued their directional ribbons. Figure of 8
>ribbons are wonderful for a lot of things but sometimes they're real lobe is
>just unmanageble.

When the Soviet Union fell, all kinds of things changed. Oktava and Nikfi
today bear very little resemblance to the companies they were thirty years
back.

It's very hard to make a ribbon do anything other than a figure-8, and
in general you sacrifice response on-axis for the pattern, and you still
can't get the pattern uniform with frequency.

The BK-5 is a good example, being designed for pattern control at the
expense of everything else. The pattern at 2KC is actually _wider_
that at 1KC, although at 5 KC it's narrower than either. Really weird.
Nobody would ever make something like that today, in part because we
have good condenser mikes for boom recording now.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Carey Carlan]

"AndyP" > wrote in
:

>> Point the rear lobe somewhere dead, like the ceiling.
>
> Yes. The problem is that when the ceiling is low I basically can't use
> figure of 8 as the sound that reaches the rear lobe (pointing at the
> ceiling) has still a lot of energy. Gobos are great but they aren't
> always available.

If the sound off the ceiling is loud, then sound is bouncing around enough
that hypercardioid won't help much either.

>> Remember that supercardioids and hypercardioids also have rear lobes,
>> just different position and shape.
>
> Yes, but aren't they usually a lot less sensitive to sound coming from
> the back?

They are, but because of the odd shape, they seem to pick up from more
places. Envision the pattern as a Y with the bottom pointed at the source
and the two arms collecting from the rear.

[hank alrich]

AndyP wrote:

> Carey Carlan wrote,
>
> > Point the rear lobe somewhere dead, like the ceiling.
>
> Yes. The problem is that when the ceiling is low I basically can't use
> figure of 8 as the sound that reaches the rear lobe (pointing at the
> ceiling) has still a lot of energy. Gobos are great but they aren't always
> available.
>
> > Remember that supercardioids and hypercardioids also have rear lobes, just
> > different position and shape.
>
> Yes, but aren't they usually a lot less sensitive to sound coming from the
> back?

There is a hot spot 180 degress off-axis.

--
ha
"Iraq" is Arabic for "Vietnam"

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message

> AndyP > wrote:
>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>>> Back in the seventies, Oktava made two ribbons, the
>>> MK-19 which was a cardioid, and the MK-219 which was a
>>> hypercardioid. They both used a labarynth arrangement
>>> more or less like the RCA 77DX, but not adjustable.
>>
>> I wonder why Oktava discontinued their directional
>> ribbons. Figure of 8 ribbons are wonderful for a lot of
>> things but sometimes they're real lobe is just
>> unmanageble.
>
> When the Soviet Union fell, all kinds of things changed.
> Oktava and Nikfi today bear very little resemblance to
> the companies they were thirty years back.

Can you expound on this further, Scott?

[Scott Dorsey]

Arny Krueger > wrote:
>>
>> When the Soviet Union fell, all kinds of things changed.
>> Oktava and Nikfi today bear very little resemblance to
>> the companies they were thirty years back.
>
>Can you expound on this further, Scott?

I will say that when the Soviet Union fell, Russian industries found
themselves in a desperate need for convertable currency, and many
companies wound up in very bad exclusive distribution contracts with
the first Western company that offered to take their products.

For a long time, Oktava in Tula was selling exclusively to a single
British-owned company that won't be named, but which is very vigorous
about threatening litigation. That company cares more about quantity
than quality and as a consequence Oktava focussed primarily on products
they could make in large quantity at low costs, not on things like the
old ribbon mike designs which required a lot of precision machining.

This same story turns up time and time again, and the end result invariably
results in the sort of crash that Oktava had recently, or alternatively
the sort of thing that happened to the Ulyanov tube factory where they will
no longer do any business with Americans or people who look like Americans.

Before the fall of the Soviet union, the Oktava folks made a lot of very
high quality products which would not be cost-effective to sell in a free
market economy where they are competing against mass-production. They made
things like the ribbon and broadcast microphones, and also products like
military communications mikes that were practically handbuilt and probably
cost a fortune compared with the usual stamped-out communications mikes.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Richard Kuschel]

AndyP wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I don't know of any hypercardioid ribbon mics besides the Beyers (M160,
> M260, M500). Are there other models?
>
> Thanks,
> Andy

Shure SM33 and 330.

RCA 77DX has variable patterns using an acoustic labrynth. Basically
anything other than figure 8 doesn't sound all that hot.

[AndyP]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

snip

> It's very hard to make a ribbon do anything other than a figure-8, and
> in general you sacrifice response on-axis for the pattern, and you still
> can't get the pattern uniform with frequency.

Do you think that's also true for the Beyer M160?

Andy

[AndyP]

Mike Rivers wrote:

snip

> Besides, there
> are plenty of smooth sounding directional mics as long as you're not
> looking at inexpensive condensers.

Thanks Mike, I would love to hear about alternatives to unidirectional
ribbon mics.

Andy

[AndyP]

Richard Kuschel wrote:

> Shure SM33 and 330.
>
> RCA 77DX has variable patterns using an acoustic labrynth. Basically
> anything other than figure 8 doesn't sound all that hot.

Thanks Richard. Do you have any experience with the Shure mics? I saw that
they go for about 200 Euros on ebay.

Andy

[Scott Dorsey]

AndyP > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>snip
>
>> It's very hard to make a ribbon do anything other than a figure-8, and
>> in general you sacrifice response on-axis for the pattern, and you still
>> can't get the pattern uniform with frequency.
>
>Do you think that's also true for the Beyer M160?

Oh, yes. Compare the M130 and the M160... Beyer has worked really hard
to make them sound as close as possible to one another, but the M130 still
sounds a little cleaner.

Beyer has done a better job of this, though, than anyone else around. But
they also weren't pushing as hard at directionality as RCA was, and the
smaller ribbon makes their job easier to begin with.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."