Shocked at the mic

[reqluq]

Hi, at this particular hotel where we play outside, I and another singer are
getting shocked by the mics. How can this be stopped?
Also the cordless mics work fine in other parts of the hotel but on this
particular patio they make warbling squeeking sounds when used, and the
signal light flashes almost continually; any ideas what this could be? Yes I
assume it's electrical/transmission interference of some kind, but any
suggestions what it could be so I can approach the hotel?
thanks
req

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>Hi, at this particular hotel where we play outside, I and another singer are
>getting shocked by the mics. How can this be stopped?

Hire a competent sound guy and fire whatever idiot you have that has lifted
the grounds somewhere. If you have a system ground that is lifted or a
guitar amp that is lifted or a lighting system ground that is lifted, sooner
or later someone will be injured or killed.

If it is the result of the hotel having outlets with bad grounds, by all
means take it up with the hotel electrician.

>Also the cordless mics work fine in other parts of the hotel but on this
>particular patio they make warbling squeeking sounds when used, and the
>signal light flashes almost continually; any ideas what this could be? Yes I
>assume it's electrical/transmission interference of some kind, but any
>suggestions what it could be so I can approach the hotel?

It's interference. You probably can't approach the hotel about it because
it may not even be coming from the hotel. Use a different frequency.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Brian]

Could be the other way around.... the mic is grounded and the person
using it has developed a static charge which then finds a ground when
they get close to the mic. Not hard to do this time of year with cold,
dry air. It's the same reason you get nailed when you get nailed when
you touch your car key to the ignition in cold weather.

[jakdedert]

Brian wrote:
> Could be the other way around.... the mic is grounded and the person
> using it has developed a static charge which then finds a ground when
> they get close to the mic. Not hard to do this time of year with cold,
> dry air. It's the same reason you get nailed when you get nailed when
> you touch your car key to the ignition in cold weather.
>
It would really suck to have to work outside in the kind of weather
we're having in TN these days. I'd assume the OP isn't doing so....

jak

[JSVice]

If you still decide that you must perform regardless of the bad grounding,
put a sock over the mic. No joke.
--
Thanks,
John


"reqluq" > wrote in message
...
> Hi, at this particular hotel where we play outside, I and another singer
> are getting shocked by the mics. How can this be stopped?
> Also the cordless mics work fine in other parts of the hotel but on this
> particular patio they make warbling squeeking sounds when used, and the
> signal light flashes almost continually; any ideas what this could be? Yes
> I assume it's electrical/transmission interference of some kind, but any
> suggestions what it could be so I can approach the hotel?
> thanks
> req
>
>

[Geoff]

Brian wrote:
> Could be the other way around.... the mic is grounded and the person
> using it has developed a static charge which then finds a ground when
> they get close to the mic. Not hard to do this time of year with cold,
> dry air. It's the same reason you get nailed when you get nailed when
> you touch your car key to the ignition in cold weather.

Cold ? Not where I am - hot and humid. Nobody knows where the OP is !

geoff

[Geoff]

JSVice wrote:
> If you still decide that you must perform regardless of the bad
> grounding, put a sock over the mic. No joke.


Or a condom (unused). Rubber is a better insulator than sock.

geoff

PS, you may get funny looks though, either way....

[reqluq]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> reqluq > wrote:
>>Hi, at this particular hotel where we play outside, I and another singer
>>are
>>getting shocked by the mics. How can this be stopped?
>
> Hire a competent sound guy and fire whatever idiot you have that has
> lifted
> the grounds somewhere. If you have a system ground that is lifted or a
> guitar amp that is lifted or a lighting system ground that is lifted,
> sooner
> or later someone will be injured or killed.

Heyyyy, I'm the sound guy!!! I have a mackie dfx 6 that I have been using
for years now, so it's not the *idiots* fault :-) at least not this time...
oh and no ground lifted.

> If it is the result of the hotel having outlets with bad grounds, by all
> means take it up with the hotel electrician.

Yes I kind of had that i mind. don't know if they are going to do anything
about it though. was looking for something I coul do on my end

>>Also the cordless mics work fine in other parts of the hotel but on this
>>particular patio they make warbling squeeking sounds when used, and the
>>signal light flashes almost continually; any ideas what this could be? Yes
>>I
>>assume it's electrical/transmission interference of some kind, but any
>>suggestions what it could be so I can approach the hotel?
>
> It's interference. You probably can't approach the hotel about it because
> it may not even be coming from the hotel. Use a different frequency.

Yes I have done that, I have a reciever with a find clear channel feature
and another wireless on it's own frequency but still no go..

Thanks
req

[reqluq]

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
> Could be the other way around.... the mic is grounded and the person
> using it has developed a static charge which then finds a ground when
> they get close to the mic. Not hard to do this time of year with cold,
> dry air. It's the same reason you get nailed when you get nailed when
> you touch your car key to the ignition in cold weather.

Yes it is cold and dry here at this time..nassau bahamas
req

[reqluq]

"jakdedert" > wrote in message
.. .
> Brian wrote:
>> Could be the other way around.... the mic is grounded and the person
>> using it has developed a static charge which then finds a ground when
>> they get close to the mic. Not hard to do this time of year with cold,
>> dry air. It's the same reason you get nailed when you get nailed when
>> you touch your car key to the ignition in cold weather.
> It would really suck to have to work outside in the kind of weather we're
> having in TN these days. I'd assume the OP isn't doing so....

Nassau Bahamas
but it still gets cold; no snow though
req

[reqluq]

"Geoff" > wrote in message
...
> Brian wrote:
>> Could be the other way around.... the mic is grounded and the person
>> using it has developed a static charge which then finds a ground when
>> they get close to the mic. Not hard to do this time of year with cold,
>> dry air. It's the same reason you get nailed when you get nailed when
>> you touch your car key to the ignition in cold weather.
>
> Cold ? Not where I am - hot and humid. Nobody knows where the OP is !
>
> geoff
Nassau Bahamas
req

[reqluq]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "reqluq" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi, at this particular hotel where we play outside, I and another singer
>> are getting shocked by the mics. How can this be stopped?
>> Also the cordless mics work fine in other parts of the hotel but on this
>> particular patio they make warbling squeeking sounds when used, and the
>> signal light flashes almost continually; any ideas what this could be?
>> Yes I assume it's electrical/transmission interference of some kind, but
>> any suggestions what it could be so I can approach the hotel?
>> thanks
>> req
> Take all the wired equipment to a tech immediately. DO NOT USE. You run
> the risk of electrocution=DEATH.

Nothing wrong with the equip, it works fine everywhere else.if you read my
post it says *at this particular hotel*

>
> You cannot be shocked by a wireless mike.

If you read my post it says nothing about being shocked by wireless mics.
Just about the interference.
thanks
req

[reqluq]

"JSVice" > wrote in message
...
> If you still decide that you must perform regardless of the bad grounding,
> put a sock over the mic. No joke.
> --
> Thanks,
> John
will do
thanks
req

[reqluq]

"Geoff" > wrote in message
...
> JSVice wrote:
>> If you still decide that you must perform regardless of the bad
>> grounding, put a sock over the mic. No joke.
>
>
> Or a condom (unused). Rubber is a better insulator than sock.
>
> geoff
>
> PS, you may get funny looks though, either way....

Are you suggesting that I sing through a condom... sir?
hehe just what I need... a sock and a condom
req

[reqluq]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "reqluq" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "reqluq" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Hi, at this particular hotel where we play outside, I and another
>>>> singer are getting shocked by the mics. How can this be stopped?
>>>> Also the cordless mics work fine in other parts of the hotel but on
>>>> this particular patio they make warbling squeeking sounds when used,
>>>> and the signal light flashes almost continually; any ideas what this
>>>> could be? Yes I assume it's electrical/transmission interference of
>>>> some kind, but any suggestions what it could be so I can approach the
>>>> hotel?
>>>> thanks
>>>> req
>>> Take all the wired equipment to a tech immediately. DO NOT USE. You run
>>> the risk of electrocution=DEATH.
>>
>> Nothing wrong with the equip, it works fine everywhere else.if you read
>> my post it says *at this particular hotel*
>>
>>>
>>> You cannot be shocked by a wireless mike.
>>
>> If you read my post it says nothing about being shocked by wireless mics.
>> Just about the interference.
>> thanks
>> req
>>
> Yes, of course. Since I was unsure of your level of experience, I just
> wanted to cover the bases.

hehe it doesn't matter your experience; a shock is a shock is a shock.

> Likewise, it is possible that there is no lethal hazard, or that there is
> one, but it's in the hotel wiring. I have to tell you the safest thing to

Thanks
req

[Geoff]

reqluq wrote:
> "Geoff" > wrote in message
> ...
>> JSVice wrote:
>>> If you still decide that you must perform regardless of the bad
>>> grounding, put a sock over the mic. No joke.
>>
>>
>> Or a condom (unused). Rubber is a better insulator than sock.
>>
>> geoff
>>
>> PS, you may get funny looks though, either way....
>
> Are you suggesting that I sing through a condom... sir?
> hehe just what I need... a sock and a condom
> req

Safe vox.

geoff

PS In other circumstances, if you feel the need to 'use' a sock, then a
condom isn't exactly required ...

[Geoff]

reqluq wrote:

> Yes I have done that, I have a reciever with a find clear channel
> feature and another wireless on it's own frequency but still no go..


Unfortunately 'find clear frequency' tuning may find a frequency that on
any one moment may indeed be clear, the a little later isn't.

geoff

[Geoff]

reqluq wrote:

>
> Nassau Bahamas
> but it still gets cold; no snow though


Well I'm cancelling my Carribean cruise this year then ...

geoff

[Mike Rivers]

reqluq wrote:

> Are you suggesting that I sing through a condom... sir?
> hehe just what I need... a sock and a condom

It's cheaper than an isolation transformer that's big enough to handle
all of your sound equipment.

[Federico]

Hi,
Are you singing AND playing a string instrument?
If the answer is yes then you can do the following:

It may be that the string instrument is "charging" you and you discharge by
touching the microphon.
So
1) Plug your string instrument into a DI box.
2) Connect the jack output of the DI to your usual amp.
3) Connect the XLR output of the DI to your mixer.
The DI box must not be earth-lifted.
You do not have to use that channel, it is just to give your instrument a
ground path.

Hope it helps.
F.

[Six String Stu]

c'mon up to NW ND. It's supposed to be -25 tonite (no that's not the wind
chill).


--
remove "spamtrap" in return address for replys.
http://web.nccray.net/jshodges/mommasaid/sss.htm
20% of all sales goes to the local food pantry.
Accepting any and all donations of pro audio equipment.
Thanks so much to those who have responded.
"Geoff" > wrote in message
...
> reqluq wrote:
>
>>
>> Nassau Bahamas
>> but it still gets cold; no snow though
>
>
> Well I'm cancelling my Carribean cruise this year then ...
>
> geoff
>

[Les Cargill]

reqluq wrote:

> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"reqluq" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Hi, at this particular hotel where we play outside, I and another singer
>>>are getting shocked by the mics. How can this be stopped?
>>>Also the cordless mics work fine in other parts of the hotel but on this
>>>particular patio they make warbling squeeking sounds when used, and the
>>>signal light flashes almost continually; any ideas what this could be?
>>>Yes I assume it's electrical/transmission interference of some kind, but
>>>any suggestions what it could be so I can approach the hotel?
>>>thanks
>>>req
>>
>>Take all the wired equipment to a tech immediately. DO NOT USE. You run
>>the risk of electrocution=DEATH.
>
>
> Nothing wrong with the equip, it works fine everywhere else.if you read my
> post it says *at this particular hotel*
>
>
>>You cannot be shocked by a wireless mike.
>
>
> If you read my post it says nothing about being shocked by wireless mics.
> Just about the interference.
> thanks
> req
>
>
>

Show the person who pays you the results of an outlet tester,
like this one:

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/AEMC/ElectricalTestTools/OutletTesters/OT1.htm

Rig up a Ground Fault Interrupter between you and
the bad ground. It will trip, interrupting your performances.

When the boss complains, show him the tester again.

--
Les Cargill

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>
>Heyyyy, I'm the sound guy!!! I have a mackie dfx 6 that I have been using
>for years now, so it's not the *idiots* fault :-) at least not this time...
>oh and no ground lifted.

Somewhere a ground is lifted. You need to find it immediately. That might
mean checking the outlets out with a multimeter to make sure the pins are
all in the right place and the ground pin is really grounded.

You need to check ALL your power cables with the meter and make sure the
safety grounds are good. Even if there is no obvious sign (like some bozo
having cut off the ground pin), it is possible the cable could have failed.

You also need to look at what is on the backline, and make sure it is also
all properly grounded. Once again the multimeter is your friend. The most
common source of this kind of problem is the guitar amplifier, since so many
of them have been chopped up over the years or have leaky noise filter caps.
If the guitar amp is on a stage riser and the amp chassis is hot, the stage
riser can get hot too, and then your body gets hot, and then when you touch
a properly grounded mike, you get a shock.

>> If it is the result of the hotel having outlets with bad grounds, by all
>> means take it up with the hotel electrician.
>
>Yes I kind of had that i mind. don't know if they are going to do anything
>about it though. was looking for something I coul do on my end

What you could do on your end is DIE. Once you have smelled the combination
of burning hair and urine, it gives you a great appreciation for the importance
of solid safety grounds. Honestly, this is something the hotel electrician
will take seriously if you point a problem out to him. Miswired outlets are
not minor things.

Check the outlet grounds that you are using before you use them. If you move
around to a lot of places, spend $10 on an outlet tester at the hardware store.
It doesn't do anything that you can't do with the multimeter, but it can do it
faster.

>>>Also the cordless mics work fine in other parts of the hotel but on this
>>>particular patio they make warbling squeeking sounds when used, and the
>>>signal light flashes almost continually; any ideas what this could be? Yes
>>>I
>>>assume it's electrical/transmission interference of some kind, but any
>>>suggestions what it could be so I can approach the hotel?
>>
>> It's interference. You probably can't approach the hotel about it because
>> it may not even be coming from the hotel. Use a different frequency.
>
>Yes I have done that, I have a reciever with a find clear channel feature
>and another wireless on it's own frequency but still no go..

How close are these frequencies? Are both these systems VHF? Are they
on the same channel group?

If you tune to the top of the dial on an FM radio, can you hear the noise
as well? If it's so broadband that you can hear it on an FM radio, you
can also use the FM radio to find the location of the source. If it's not
so broadband that you can hear it on FM, your chances are better that you
can find a frequency that is clean.

Leakage from the cable TV system is a very common culprit for this sort
of thing, but it's not the only possible source.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Thomas Bishop]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> Somewhere a ground is lifted. You need to find it immediately. That
> might
> mean checking the outlets out with a multimeter to make sure the pins are
> all in the right place and the ground pin is really grounded.

I'm going to kick myself at how basic this answer will be, but...... How do
you use a meter to test the individual pins, especially the ground?

[TimPerry]

> Are you suggesting that I sing through a condom... sir?
> hehe just what I need... a sock and a condom
> req

what kind of a shock? when you touch it with your hand or only when you
touch mic to lips?

are you holding a guitar or instrument at the same time?

if so is instrument on the same outlet as the PA?

do you have balanced mics and cables? is pin 1 tied to shell on your
cables?


aside from questions i do have one suggestion. obtain an ac voltmeter and
check the outlet you are plugged into. specifically check for a voltage
present at neutral to ground and.or a hot neutral reversal. i got "bit" by
a faulty/miswired outlet once. since then i habitually use at least a simple
AC tester on every setup.

[reqluq]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> reqluq > wrote:
>>
>>Heyyyy, I'm the sound guy!!! I have a mackie dfx 6 that I have been using
>>for years now, so it's not the *idiots* fault :-) at least not this
>>time...
>>oh and no ground lifted.
>
> Somewhere a ground is lifted. You need to find it immediately. That
> might
> mean checking the outlets out with a multimeter to make sure the pins are
> all in the right place and the ground pin is really grounded.
>
> You need to check ALL your power cables with the meter and make sure the
> safety grounds are good. Even if there is no obvious sign (like some bozo
> having cut off the ground pin), it is possible the cable could have
> failed.
>
> You also need to look at what is on the backline, and make sure it is also
> all properly grounded. Once again the multimeter is your friend. The
> most
> common source of this kind of problem is the guitar amplifier, since so
> many
> of them have been chopped up over the years or have leaky noise filter
> caps.
> If the guitar amp is on a stage riser and the amp chassis is hot, the
> stage
> riser can get hot too, and then your body gets hot, and then when you
> touch
> a properly grounded mike, you get a shock.

Ok there are no guitars in the group, just to keyboards. Some of the speaker
cables have the ground prong off, but there is no shock in the others places
that I play in. So I assume they are not the cause.
>
>>> If it is the result of the hotel having outlets with bad grounds, by all
>>> means take it up with the hotel electrician.

That's the best course, but fat lt hat will do in this country.

>>
>>Yes I kind of had that i mind. don't know if they are going to do anything
>>about it though. was looking for something I coul do on my end
>
> What you could do on your end is DIE. Once you have smelled the
> combination
> of burning hair and urine, it gives you a great appreciation for the
> importance
> of solid safety grounds.

You thinks I'l be alive to smell the hair and urine ? :-)

> Honestly, this is something the hotel electrician
> will take seriously if you point a problem out to him. Miswired outlets
> are
> not minor things.

Well I'll try, but there's so much bull**** around this country...we'll see,
if he takes it seriously

> Check the outlet grounds that you are using before you use them. If you
> move
> around to a lot of places, spend $10 on an outlet tester at the hardware
> store.
> It doesn't do anything that you can't do with the multimeter, but it can
> do it
> faster.

Wil do
>>>>Also the cordless mics work fine in other parts of the hotel but on this
>>>>particular patio they make warbling squeeking sounds when used, and the
>>>>signal light flashes almost continually; any ideas what this could be?
>>>>Yes
>>>>I
>>>>assume it's electrical/transmission interference of some kind, but any
>>>>suggestions what it could be so I can approach the hotel?
>>>
>>> It's interference. You probably can't approach the hotel about it
>>> because
>>> it may not even be coming from the hotel. Use a different frequency.
>>
>>Yes I have done that, I have a reciever with a find clear channel feature
>>and another wireless on it's own frequency but still no go..
>
> How close are these frequencies? Are both these systems VHF? Are they
> on the same channel group?
>
> If you tune to the top of the dial on an FM radio, can you hear the noise
> as well? If it's so broadband that you can hear it on an FM radio, you
> can also use the FM radio to find the location of the source. If it's not
> so broadband that you can hear it on FM, your chances are better that you
> can find a frequency that is clean.
>
> Leakage from the cable TV system is a very common culprit for this sort
> of thing, but it's not the only possible source.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I'l look into this and get back.. thanks scott
req
>

[reqluq]

"TimPerry" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Are you suggesting that I sing through a condom... sir?
>> hehe just what I need... a sock and a condom
>> req
>
> what kind of a shock? when you touch it with your hand or only when you
> touch mic to lips?
>
> are you holding a guitar or instrument at the same time?
>
> if so is instrument on the same outlet as the PA?
>
> do you have balanced mics and cables? is pin 1 tied to shell on your
> cables?

Please...I said it only happens at this particular hotel, so I guess I can
assume that it's not my setup prob.
No shock to the touch only the lips, I play keyboards but the conga player
is getting shocked from his mic also
>
> aside from questions i do have one suggestion. obtain an ac voltmeter and
> check the outlet you are plugged into. specifically check for a voltage
> present at neutral to ground and.or a hot neutral reversal. i got "bit"
> by
> a faulty/miswired outlet once. since then i habitually use at least a
> simple
> AC tester on every setup.

will do
thanks
req

[reqluq]

"Federico" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
> Are you singing AND playing a string instrument?
> If the answer is yes then you can do the following:
>
> It may be that the string instrument is "charging" you and you discharge
> by touching the microphon.
> So
> 1) Plug your string instrument into a DI box.
> 2) Connect the jack output of the DI to your usual amp.
> 3) Connect the XLR output of the DI to your mixer.
> The DI box must not be earth-lifted.
> You do not have to use that channel, it is just to give your instrument a
> ground path.
>
> Hope it helps.
> F.
It must be the hotel, the conga palyer is getting shocked at his vocal mic
also
req

[Federico]

> It must be the hotel, the conga palyer is getting shocked at his vocal mic
> also


If this is the hotel
http://www.mysticalblaze.com/STANLEY%20HOTEL.jpg
and you see thiese cute little girls in the audience
http://accel6.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/32/53/06/arbus/twins-shining-250.jpg
please be careful.

Remember that
"all work and no play makes reqluq a dull boy"....

F.

[Mogens V.]

Geoff wrote:
> JSVice wrote:
>
>>If you still decide that you must perform regardless of the bad
>>grounding, put a sock over the mic. No joke.
>
>
>
> Or a condom (unused). Rubber is a better insulator than sock.
>
> geoff
>
> PS, you may get funny looks though, either way....

Will a 5 denier nylon do? Both are sexy solutions, just don't think I'll
like the rubber sound...

--
Kind regards,
Mogens V.

[Mogens V.]

TimPerry wrote:
>>Are you suggesting that I sing through a condom... sir?
>>hehe just what I need... a sock and a condom
>>req
>
>
> what kind of a shock? when you touch it with your hand or only when you
> touch mic to lips?

It the latter is the case, then avoid using those new condomes treated
with a seddative to make the guy last longer - the thingerth may thtarth
tho make funny thoundth ath their lipth and thonqeth goeth numb...

--
Kind regards,
Mogens V.

[Mike Rivers]

reqluq wrote:
> Ok there are no guitars in the group, just to keyboards.

"Guitar" is a generic name here. Do the keyboards have amplifiers on
stage, or are they connected directly (or through a DI) to the PA
mixer?

> Some of the speaker cables have the ground prong off

Speaker cables with ground prong off? Powered speakers? That's
dangerous because it if the chassis becomes "hot" it will make
whatever is connected to it via an audio cable hot as well.

[Paul Repacholi]

"reqluq" > writes:

>> Take all the wired equipment to a tech immediately. DO NOT USE. You
>> run the risk of electrocution=DEATH.

> Nothing wrong with the equip, it works fine everywhere else.if you
> read my post it says *at this particular hotel*

Quess what, the electrons don't care, they will happily kill you
no matter who is to blame...

You may well have 2 or more faults, plus one, or more, in the hotel
that brings it out.

[Paul Repacholi]

"reqluq" > writes:

> "TimPerry" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>> Are you suggesting that I sing through a condom... sir?
>>> hehe just what I need... a sock and a condom
>>> req
>>
>> what kind of a shock? when you touch it with your hand or only when you
>> touch mic to lips?
>>
>> are you holding a guitar or instrument at the same time?
>>
>> if so is instrument on the same outlet as the PA?
>>
>> do you have balanced mics and cables? is pin 1 tied to shell on your
>> cables?
>
> Please...I said it only happens at this particular hotel, so I guess I can
> assume that it's not my setup prob.

No you can't! A swapped neutral and earth will not be a problem, until
you plug it into a socket with active and neutral swapped.

The clasic caravan of death f***up.

[TimPerry]

>>> Are you suggesting that I sing through a condom... sir?
>>> hehe just what I need... a sock and a condom
>>> req
>>
>> what kind of a shock? when you touch it with your hand or only when
>> you touch mic to lips?
>>
>> are you holding a guitar or instrument at the same time?
>>
>> if so is instrument on the same outlet as the PA?
>>
>> do you have balanced mics and cables? is pin 1 tied to shell on your
>> cables?
>
> Please...I said it only happens at this particular hotel, so I guess
> I can assume that it's not my setup prob.
> No shock to the touch only the lips, I play keyboards but the conga
> player is getting shocked from his mic also

is there a radio station transmitter near this hotel?

if the problem is RF related protection over the microphone may be the only
reasonable approach. an ordinary windscreen should be sufficient.


>>
>> aside from questions i do have one suggestion. obtain an ac
>> voltmeter and check the outlet you are plugged into. specifically
>> check for a voltage present at neutral to ground and.or a hot
>> neutral reversal. i got "bit" by
>> a faulty/miswired outlet once. since then i habitually use at least a
>> simple
>> AC tester on every setup.
>
> will do
> thanks
> req

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
Thomas Bishop > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>> Somewhere a ground is lifted. You need to find it immediately. That
>> might
>> mean checking the outlets out with a multimeter to make sure the pins are
>> all in the right place and the ground pin is really grounded.
>
>I'm going to kick myself at how basic this answer will be, but...... How do
>you use a meter to test the individual pins, especially the ground?

It's easiest to use an analogue meter, or a "wiggy" meter, because digital
meters will sometimes detect RF noise enough to register voltage when there
is very little actual AC there.

BUT, you should have voltage between the black and white wires. You
should have voltage between the black wire and ground. You should never,
never have voltage between the white wire and ground.

If you see no voltage between the black wire and ground, the ground has
been lifted. If you see voltage between the white wire and ground,
hot and neutral have probably been swapped.

The $10 outlet tester has some lights on it that will do the job for
you, and if you're working an event with hundreds of outlets it is
worth every penny to get the outlet tester and check every outlet before
plugging anything in.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[alex]

reqluq ha scritto:
> "Federico" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi,
>> Are you singing AND playing a string instrument?
>> If the answer is yes then you can do the following:
>>
>> It may be that the string instrument is "charging" you and you discharge
>> by touching the microphon.
>> So
>> 1) Plug your string instrument into a DI box.
>> 2) Connect the jack output of the DI to your usual amp.
>> 3) Connect the XLR output of the DI to your mixer.
>> The DI box must not be earth-lifted.
>> You do not have to use that channel, it is just to give your instrument a
>> ground path.
>>
>> Hope it helps.
>> F.
> It must be the hotel, the conga palyer is getting shocked at his vocal mic
> also
> req
>
>
>
is there a glass floor?
the conga player is touching something metallic wich can have a
consistent electrical potential?

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>
>Ok there are no guitars in the group, just to keyboards. Some of the speaker
>cables have the ground prong off, but there is no shock in the others places
>that I play in. So I assume they are not the cause.

Fix them, first off, before doing anything else. Don't ever, ever use a
power cord with the ground lug chopped off. That is grounds for firing
sound techs on the spot. If you have a signal ground loop problem, fix
the signal grounds, don't lift the safety grounds. Lifting safety grounds
is not safe.

Even keyboards can be an issue. Check them with the meter and see. If
they are designed to be grounded, make sure they are.

>>>> If it is the result of the hotel having outlets with bad grounds, by all
>>>> means take it up with the hotel electrician.
>
>That's the best course, but fat lt hat will do in this country.

I think you'll be surprised, especially if it's a member of an American
chain. It's not difficult to fix building grounding problems, and the
alternative is death. Death is bad. I have worked in places with some
pretty flaky electrical stuff, but lifted grounds are something to be
taken seriously.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>
>Please...I said it only happens at this particular hotel, so I guess I can
>assume that it's not my setup prob.

No, you cannot.

See, the thing about safety grounds is that they are there for safety.
Normally, no current should ever be flowing through a safety ground, so
in a perfect world there is no reason to have it.

But, when something goes wrong, and the safety ground is needed, current
flows. And that current is shunted safely to ground.

When you have problems like you are encountering, it is the result of two
different problems: first there is a voltage leak somewhere, and secondly
there is a lifted safety ground that is preventing that leak from being
shunted harmlessly away.

It is entirely possible one of those problems is the hotel's, but it's
possible one of them is yours. The meter will tell you.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

reqluq wrote:

> Please...I said it only happens at this particular hotel, so I guess I can
> assume that it's not my setup prob.

You can't really assume that. It could be that there's a problem
that's 'covered' because electrical outlets are properly grounded in
most places, but one (or more) isn't in this hotel.

Don't test things by shocking yourself, but once you find an outlet
that's properly wired (ground, hot and neutral all in place), get a
meter and start measuring voltage between ground and anything metal
that you can touch. Start with just one thing plugged in to power,
then plug other things in one at a time until something gets "hot."
Then you'll be on the trail of your problem.

[alex]

Federico ha scritto:
> Hi,
> Are you singing AND playing a string instrument?
> If the answer is yes then you can do the following:
>
> It may be that the string instrument is "charging" you and you discharge by
> touching the microphon.
> So
> 1) Plug your string instrument into a DI box.
> 2) Connect the jack output of the DI to your usual amp.
> 3) Connect the XLR output of the DI to your mixer.
> The DI box must not be earth-lifted.
> You do not have to use that channel, it is just to give your instrument a
> ground path.
>
> Hope it helps.
> F.
>
>
agree, that's the way, because if you're touring, you cannot know
anything about the electrical ground of the venue.
i made a special cable with male xlr at one end (pin 1 connected) and a
trs jack on the other (only sleeve connected). i plug the jack in a free
socket of the guitar amp and the xlr to che mic snake. that's enough!

alex

[alex]

reqluq ha scritto:
> "JSVice" > wrote in message
> ...
>> If you still decide that you must perform regardless of the bad grounding,
>> put a sock over the mic. No joke.
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> John
> will do
> thanks
> req
>
>
>
haha, after a couple of songs the sock get humid and... ZZZZOTT!!!

Paul Repacholi > wrote:
> "reqluq" > writes:
>
>> "TimPerry" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>> Are you suggesting that I sing through a condom... sir?
>>>> hehe just what I need... a sock and a condom
>>>> req
>>>
>>> what kind of a shock? when you touch it with your hand or only when you
>>> touch mic to lips?
>>>
>>> are you holding a guitar or instrument at the same time?
>>>
>>> if so is instrument on the same outlet as the PA?
>>>
>>> do you have balanced mics and cables? is pin 1 tied to shell on your
>>> cables?
>>
>> Please...I said it only happens at this particular hotel, so I guess I can
>> assume that it's not my setup prob.
>
> No you can't! A swapped neutral and earth will not be a problem, until
> you plug it into a socket with active and neutral swapped.
>
> The clasic caravan of death f***up.

Exactamundo.

--
Aaron

[reqluq]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> reqluq wrote:
>> Ok there are no guitars in the group, just to keyboards.
>
> "Guitar" is a generic name here. Do the keyboards have amplifiers on
> stage, or are they connected directly (or through a DI) to the PA
> mixer?

Directly to the mixer

>> Some of the speaker cables have the ground prong off
>
> Speaker cables with ground prong off? Powered speakers? That's
> dangerous because it if the chassis becomes "hot" it will make
> whatever is connected to it via an audio cable hot as well.

I guess it's off to get some new cables...if I can find 'em around here
req

[reqluq]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> reqluq > wrote:
>>
>>Ok there are no guitars in the group, just to keyboards. Some of the
>>speaker
>>cables have the ground prong off, but there is no shock in the others
>>places
>>that I play in. So I assume they are not the cause.
>
> Fix them, first off, before doing anything else. Don't ever, ever use a
> power cord with the ground lug chopped off. That is grounds for firing
> sound techs on the spot. If you have a signal ground loop problem, fix
> the signal grounds, don't lift the safety grounds. Lifting safety grounds
> is not safe.
>
> Even keyboards can be an issue. Check them with the meter and see. If
> they are designed to be grounded, make sure they are.
>
>>>>> If it is the result of the hotel having outlets with bad grounds, by
>>>>> all
>>>>> means take it up with the hotel electrician.
>>
>>That's the best course, but fat lt hat will do in this country.
>
> I think you'll be surprised, especially if it's a member of an American
> chain.
Nope, it's a jamaican chain. but I'll call and see...well, just called and
the electrician is off today :-) here we go
req

[hank alrich]

reqluq wrote:

> Some of the speaker
> cables have the ground prong off, but there is no shock in the others places
> that I play in. So I assume they are not the cause.

But that's potentially dangerous, and why did anyone do that in the
first place? They are asking for someone to get electrocuted. Be careful
out there...

--
ha
"Iraq" is Arabic for "Vietnam"

[Geoff]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> reqluq > wrote:
>>
>> Please...I said it only happens at this particular hotel, so I guess
>> I can assume that it's not my setup prob.
>
> No, you cannot.
>
> See, the thing about safety grounds is that they are there for safety.
> Normally, no current should ever be flowing through a safety ground,
> so in a perfect world there is no reason to have it.
>
> But, when something goes wrong, and the safety ground is needed,
> current flows. And that current is shunted safely to ground.

And then you have the current (pun intended) crop of consumer audio gear,
supposedly double-insulated and no ground, with live bare-metal PCB traces,
fuseholders, etc, centimetres from the bare metal chassis covers.

Never sit on your CD player !

geoff

[reqluq]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
> reqluq wrote:
>
>> Some of the speaker
>> cables have the ground prong off, but there is no shock in the others
>> places
>> that I play in. So I assume they are not the cause.
>
> But that's potentially dangerous, and why did anyone do that in the
> first place?

Wear and tear
req

[Scott Dorsey]

reqluq > wrote:
>"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
>> reqluq wrote:
>>
>>> Some of the speaker
>>> cables have the ground prong off, but there is no shock in the others
>>> places
>>> that I play in. So I assume they are not the cause.
>>
>> But that's potentially dangerous, and why did anyone do that in the
>> first place?
>
>Wear and tear

No. Ground plugs don't just come off by themselves. People chop them
off deliberately to break safety grounds when they have hum problems.

They don't want to spend the time and effort to set their grounding
configuration up right, or maybe they don't have any XLR ground lift
adaptors in the box that day, so they chop off the safety ground.

These people should be in jail for criminal negligence, rather than
on a set. There are a lot of them. They are dangerous.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[reqluq]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> reqluq > wrote:
>>"hank alrich" > wrote in message
...
>>> reqluq wrote:
>>>
>>>> Some of the speaker
>>>> cables have the ground prong off, but there is no shock in the others
>>>> places
>>>> that I play in. So I assume they are not the cause.
>>>
>>> But that's potentially dangerous, and why did anyone do that in the
>>> first place?
>>
>>Wear and tear
>
> No. Ground plugs don't just come off by themselves. People chop them
> off deliberately to break safety grounds when they have hum problems.
>
> They don't want to spend the time and effort to set their grounding
> configuration up right, or maybe they don't have any XLR ground lift
> adaptors in the box that day, so they chop off the safety ground.
>
> These people should be in jail for criminal negligence, rather than
> on a set. There are a lot of them. They are dangerous.

Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*; I've had 'em since
they were new. I am the only sound guy in my group. They (the ground pins on
he power cords) would get stuck/broken off in the power bar surge protector,
and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose pliers, some (the power bars) I
had to actually open to get 'em out.. I did not break them off for hum.
req

[hank alrich]

reqluq wrote:

> Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*; I've had 'em since
> they were new. I am the only sound guy in my group. They (the ground pins on
> he power cords) would get stuck/broken off in the power bar surge protector,
> and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose pliers, some (the power bars) I
> had to actually open to get 'em out.. I did not break them off for hum.

Then you need to replace them, ASAP.

--
ha
"Iraq" is Arabic for "Vietnam"

[Paul Repacholi]

"reqluq" > writes:

> Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*; I've had 'em
> since they were new. I am the only sound guy in my group. They (the
> ground pins on he power cords) would get stuck/broken off in the
> power bar surge protector, and I would have to pull 'em out with a
> nose pliers, some (the power bars) I had to actually open to get 'em
> out.. I did not break them off for hum. req

Then you should have chopped both cord and power bar into 3" bits with
an axe before dumping the lot in a bin. Then take the axe to where you
got that ****...
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[Laurence Payne]

On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:51:11 -0500, "reqluq"
> wrote:

>Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*; I've had 'em since
>they were new. I am the only sound guy in my group. They (the ground pins on
>he power cords) would get stuck/broken off in the power bar surge protector,
>and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose pliers, some (the power bars) I
>had to actually open to get 'em out.. I did not break them off for hum.

But they're off. And the responsible person (you) LEFT them off. Even
after you started getting issues with electric shocks?

They may not be the problem. But they should have been one of the
first things you tried. Want to let someone else take care of sound
for your group while you're all still alive?

[David Satz]

Thomas Bishop wrote:

> I'm going to kick myself at how basic this answer will be, but...... How do
> you use a meter to test the individual pins, especially the ground?

No kicking the self, please. For one thing, by asking a real question
instead of pretending to know the answer or asking a trumped-up
question as a conversation starter (which we all don't need), you've
increased the legitimacy quotient of this newsgroup from the start.

And then there's the fact that this is (to put it as non-hysterically
as I can) an issue of life-and-death safety which many people don't
understand. Worse yet: Many people are completely sure that they
understand it, but they're wrong.

People see "ground lift" adapters sold in hardware stores, and they
see grounding AC plugs with the ground pin cut off or torn off all the
time. People may have "solved" audio problems with this approach in
the past. I still see printed and on-line audio guides that recommend
ground liftening adapters as the solution to problems of hum and
buzzes in audio systems. To assume that "it must be safe or 'they'
wouldn't recommend/allow that" seems quite reasonable, until you find
out the actual purpose of that third prong as a safety ground.

And OK, I'm 56 years old (for another two weeks, anyway) and have a
fairly reasonable technical background for a classical musician, but I
hereby admit: I found out only two years ago what that third pin is
really for. Bill Whitlock from Jensen Transformers gives amazing talks
at AES conventions and elsewhere--everyone should attend at least
once.

Your willingness to ask this question, if matched with a willingness
to apply what you're learning, could very well save somone's life some
day. Unfortunately, when that happens, it won't make the papers and
probably even you won't know about it; when an accidental
electrocution is prevented, that just doesn't enter into our
statistics. But how about let's give you some credit for it in
advance. Hey, that was a great thing that you're going to do.

--best regards

[Thomas Bishop]

"David Satz" > wrote in message
> No kicking the self, please. For one thing, by asking a real question
> instead of pretending to know the answer or asking a trumped-up
> question as a conversation starter (which we all don't need), you've
> increased the legitimacy quotient of this newsgroup from the start.

Thanks, that means a lot. I've been here for a while and know that that
quotient is sometimes very low.

> Bill Whitlock from Jensen Transformers gives amazing talks
> at AES conventions and elsewhere--everyone should attend at least
> once.

I just moved to New Jersey and will be attending this year's AES. I was
just talking about transformers with a friend the other day, and he told me
I needed to go to the AES show. It must be true.

> Your willingness to ask this question, if matched with a willingness
> to apply what you're learning, could very well save somone's life some
> day. Unfortunately, when that happens, it won't make the papers and
> probably even you won't know about it; when an accidental
> electrocution is prevented, that just doesn't enter into our
> statistics. But how about let's give you some credit for it in
> advance. Hey, that was a great thing that you're going to do.

I NEVER cut a ground plug off or use lift adapters. But I've never thought
to check the ground of the venue's outlets. What happens when you find a
fault? Do you refuse to power up before it is fixed? What if it can't be
fixed in time for the show, the show doesn't happen? I recognize the
importance of the safety ground, but the promoter/band manager/etc. will not
I'm sure. Do you just tell this person, "Sorry, people could die if you
don't fix this before we start?"

How's that QuadMic working out for you, David?

[Arny Krueger]

"reqluq" > wrote in message

> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> ...
>> reqluq > wrote:
>>> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> reqluq wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Some of the speaker
>>>>> cables have the ground prong off, but there is no
>>>>> shock in the others places
>>>>> that I play in. So I assume they are not the cause.
>>>>
>>>> But that's potentially dangerous, and why did anyone
>>>> do that in the first place?
>>>
>>> Wear and tear
>>
>> No. Ground plugs don't just come off by themselves. People chop them off
>> deliberately to break safety
>> grounds when they have hum problems. They don't want to spend the time
>> and effort to set
>> their grounding configuration up right, or maybe they
>> don't have any XLR ground lift adaptors in the box that
>> day, so they chop off the safety ground. These people should be in jail
>> for criminal negligence,
>> rather than on a set. There are a lot of them. They
>> are dangerous.
>
> Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*;
> I've had 'em since they were new. I am the only sound guy
> in my group. They (the ground pins on he power cords)
> would get stuck/broken off in the power bar surge
> protector, and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose
> pliers, some (the power bars) I had to actually open to
> get 'em out.. I did not break them off for hum.

So why haven't you fixed 'em?

[Mike Rivers]

On Feb 4, 2:02 pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> So why haven't you fixed 'em?

Because he's the soundman. Maybe he doesn't like the drummer.

[reqluq]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Feb 4, 2:02 pm, "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> So why haven't you fixed 'em?
>
> Because he's the soundman. Maybe he doesn't like the drummer.

LOL, well he does come late a lot and does have an attitude
req

[reqluq]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "reqluq" > wrote in message
>
>> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> reqluq > wrote:
>>>> "hank alrich" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> reqluq wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Some of the speaker
>>>>>> cables have the ground prong off, but there is no
>>>>>> shock in the others places
>>>>>> that I play in. So I assume they are not the cause.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that's potentially dangerous, and why did anyone
>>>>> do that in the first place?
>>>>
>>>> Wear and tear
>>>
>>> No. Ground plugs don't just come off by themselves. People chop them
>>> off deliberately to break safety
>>> grounds when they have hum problems. They don't want to spend the time
>>> and effort to set
>>> their grounding configuration up right, or maybe they
>>> don't have any XLR ground lift adaptors in the box that
>>> day, so they chop off the safety ground. These people should be in jail
>>> for criminal negligence,
>>> rather than on a set. There are a lot of them. They
>>> are dangerous.
>>
>> Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*;
>> I've had 'em since they were new. I am the only sound guy
>> in my group. They (the ground pins on he power cords)
>> would get stuck/broken off in the power bar surge
>> protector, and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose
>> pliers, some (the power bars) I had to actually open to
>> get 'em out.. I did not break them off for hum.
>
> So why haven't you fixed 'em?

Fixed 'em? not that easy, I need to replace 'em like suggested; don't know
where I can find replacements around here, will have to order from away\0\0\0req

[Scott Dorsey]

Thomas Bishop > wrote:
>I NEVER cut a ground plug off or use lift adapters. But I've never thought
>to check the ground of the venue's outlets. What happens when you find a
>fault? Do you refuse to power up before it is fixed? What if it can't be
>fixed in time for the show, the show doesn't happen? I recognize the
>importance of the safety ground, but the promoter/band manager/etc. will not
>I'm sure. Do you just tell this person, "Sorry, people could die if you
>don't fix this before we start?"

No, you find an outlet that IS good, and run an extension cord there.

If things are really bad, you can run an improvised reference ground
to somewhere else.

But you should definitely bring it to the attention of the venue electrician
or at least mark it with a Sharpie.

If hot and neutral are swapped, usually I'll just take out a screwdriver and
fix it because it's easier than bitching about it. Missing grounds can be
a bit more time to track down, though, especially in older buildings.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[reqluq]

"Laurence Payne" <lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:51:11 -0500, "reqluq"
> > wrote:
>
>>Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*; I've had 'em since
>>they were new. I am the only sound guy in my group. They (the ground pins
>>on
>>he power cords) would get stuck/broken off in the power bar surge
>>protector,
>>and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose pliers, some (the power bars)
>>I
>>had to actually open to get 'em out.. I did not break them off for hum.
>
> But they're off. And the responsible person (you) LEFT them off. Even
> after you started getting issues with electric shocks?
>
> They may not be the problem. But they should have been one of the
> first things you tried. Want to let someone else take care of sound
> for your group while you're all still alive?

Why, so *they* can leave 'em off and kill me? wouldn't it be better that I
take heed and listen to the advice given in here and get new cords and a
circuit tester?
Why shoud I now pay a soundman?
req

[Laurence Payne]

On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:25:24 -0500, "Thomas Bishop"
> wrote:

>I NEVER cut a ground plug off or use lift adapters. But I've never thought
>to check the ground of the venue's outlets. What happens when you find a
>fault? Do you refuse to power up before it is fixed? What if it can't be
>fixed in time for the show, the show doesn't happen? I recognize the
>importance of the safety ground, but the promoter/band manager/etc. will not
>I'm sure. Do you just tell this person, "Sorry, people could die if you
>don't fix this before we start?"

Well, yes. Else you might get an electric shock from your equipment.

Since the ascendance of the Health & Safety mafia, it's become much
more acceptable to take this attitude, at least here in the U.K. A
lot of the regulations are over-the-top and irksome. But anyone
running premises open to the public, or with employees, will be
perfectly used to a whole raft of safety inspections, with "close down
NOW!" a very real possibility.

[Laurence Payne]

On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:33:21 -0500, "reqluq"
> wrote:

>Why, so *they* can leave 'em off and kill me? wouldn't it be better that I
>take heed and listen to the advice given in here and get new cords and a
>circuit tester?

You're not up to the job. You've been caught out in a dangerous
practice, and you're arguing and justifying.

[Agent 86]

On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:28:10 -0500, reqluq wrote:

>>>
>>> Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*; I've had 'em
>>> since they were new. I am the only sound guy in my group. They (the
>>> ground pins on he power cords) would get stuck/broken off in the power
>>> bar surge protector, and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose
>>> pliers, some (the power bars) I had to actually open to get 'em out.. I
>>> did not break them off for hum.
>>
>> So why haven't you fixed 'em?
>
> Fixed 'em? not that easy, I need to replace 'em like suggested; don't know
> where I can find replacements around here, will have to order from away

Where's "around here"?

In the US, you can get grounded replacement plugs at any Home Depot or
Lowes, and many local mom&pop hardware stores.

[hank alrich]

reqluq wrote:

> wouldn't it be better that I
> take heed and listen to the advice given in here and get new cords and a
> circuit tester?

Yes, and yes.

What you're meeting here is the intensity of the RAPster's feeling that
this is something SERIOUS, even if it is often taken lightly by many
uninformed folks.

--
ha
"Iraq" is Arabic for "Vietnam"

[[email protected]]

On 2007-02-04 said:
>>> I've had 'em since they were new. I am the only sound guy
>>> in my group. They (the ground pins on he power cords)
>>> would get stuck/broken off in the power bar surge
>>> protector, and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose
>>> pliers, some (the power bars) I had to actually open to
>>> get 'em out.. I did not break them off for hum.
If you're breaking them off in plug bars etcetera you're
mistreating them.

>don't know where I can find replacements around here, will have to

YOu replace the whole plug, and you should be able to find
replacements at just about any of those home repair houses.


IF those that were supplied as original equipment were
manufactured properly you shouldn't be having this problem
repeatedly. I'd think if this was a regular problem with
these for most we'd be hearing about it, which tells me
you're abusing them in some way when you disconnect them.
RUn, quickly before you perform again using them to a HOme
depot or other such place and get the replacement plugs,
usually they don't even need to be soldered to the cables
but have screw terminals.



Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Braille: support true literacy for the blind.

[hank alrich]

Agent 86 wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:28:10 -0500, reqluq wrote:
>
> >>>
> >>> Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*; I've had 'em
> >>> since they were new. I am the only sound guy in my group. They (the
> >>> ground pins on he power cords) would get stuck/broken off in the power
> >>> bar surge protector, and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose
> >>> pliers, some (the power bars) I had to actually open to get 'em out.. I
> >>> did not break them off for hum.
> >>
> >> So why haven't you fixed 'em?
> >
> > Fixed 'em? not that easy, I need to replace 'em like suggested; don't know
> > where I can find replacements around here, will have to order from away
>
> Where's "around here"?
>
> In the US, you can get grounded replacement plugs at any Home Depot or
> Lowes, and many local mom&pop hardware stores.

He's in Jamaica right now, mon, and I'm thinking the local hardware
store, if there is one, might not have the goods right at hand.

But he's still got to fix it, and I think he's convinced of that now.

--
ha
"Iraq" is Arabic for "Vietnam"

"Agent 86" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:28:10 -0500, reqluq wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*; I've had 'em
>>>> since they were new. I am the only sound guy in my group. They (the
>>>> ground pins on he power cords) would get stuck/broken off in the power
>>>> bar surge protector, and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose
>>>> pliers, some (the power bars) I had to actually open to get 'em out.. I
>>>> did not break them off for hum.
>>>
>>> So why haven't you fixed 'em?
>>
>> Fixed 'em? not that easy, I need to replace 'em like suggested; don't
>> know
>> where I can find replacements around here, will have to order from away
>
> Where's "around here"?
>
> In the US, you can get grounded replacement plugs at any Home Depot or
> Lowes, and many local mom&pop hardware stores.

in hundreds of thousands of interfaces with edison pugs and receptacales I
have yet to experiance a ground lug"just coming off normaly"

george


>

[[email protected]]

You guys are somehow cracking me up.

I never worked in the Bahamas, but I did work in many third world
countries.

An "electrician" just means someone that has a screwdriver and can
install plugs in parallel, and putting a switch on a light.

A "hardware store" is an open air market where you'll find live
chickens and goats, vegetables, and some hardware from "everything for
1 dollar".

They could work but they always miss something, so they'll have to
come back tomorrow. Help this guy, tell him how to use a lightbulb to
test his ground and how to install a new ground rod to be safe. Maybe
he doesn't have the money to import premium power plugs, a ground
tester and a meter!

Maybe
> he doesn't have the money to import premium power plugs, a ground
> tester and a meter!

then he needs to NOT DO IT

if he wanted to bungee jump but al he could afford was a box of rubber bands
and some string, we woud give him the exact same advise
as your talking LIFE AND DEATH here,in BOTH cases

george
>
>
>
>

But I've never thought
> to check the ground of the venue's outlets. What happens when you find a
> fault? Do you refuse to power up before it is fixed? What if it can't be
> fixed in time for the show, the show doesn't happen? I recognize the
> importance of the safety ground, but the promoter/band manager/etc. will
> not I'm sure. Do you just tell this person, "Sorry, people could die if
> you don't fix this before we start?"
it is HIGHLY unlikey to find a ungrounded outlet in a pubic place, if you do
,find a diffrent outlet that is grounded as its even more unlikely to find a
ungrounded service in a building

if your unable to establish a saftey ground, don't do the show

if you using a genny be prepared to drive your own ground rod

george

[Scott Dorsey]

In article .net>,
> wrote:
>
>it is HIGHLY unlikey to find a ungrounded outlet in a pubic place, if you do
>,find a diffrent outlet that is grounded as its even more unlikely to find a
>ungrounded service in a building

I see them all the time. Not only that, I see reversed hot and neutral,
panels with the covers off, cartridge fuses that have been replaced with
cut pieces of EMT, undersized breakers, and all KINDS of patently illegal
crap. Hotels are major offenders but I've seen scary stuff in theatres too.

And this is in the US. In third world countries it gets scarier. In
Mexico City for a festival once, the power company brought over a pole
pig transformer on the back of a flatbed truck, parked it under a pole
and clipped the primary to the 3KV catenary with car jumper cables, then
gave us an unfused set of camlocks off the secondary of the transformer.
Oh yes, and the guys doing this wore no arc protection of any sort, other
than goggles. I made sure not to stand anywhere nearby while they were
working.

>if your unable to establish a saftey ground, don't do the show

I agree. But I have never been unable to do so... sometimes it takes a
trip to the hardware store for some #8, though.

>if you using a genny be prepared to drive your own ground rod

Maybe, but note that floating the system ground is legal with portable
generators that are not connected to a building service. NEC article 250,
section 6. This can occasionally be to your advantage. It is also possible
to construct an impedance-grounded system with a generator in the field.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[reqluq]

> wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Agent 86" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:28:10 -0500, reqluq wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Listen Scott I'm telling you, they came off *normally*; I've had 'em
>>>>> since they were new. I am the only sound guy in my group. They (the
>>>>> ground pins on he power cords) would get stuck/broken off in the power
>>>>> bar surge protector, and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose
>>>>> pliers, some (the power bars) I had to actually open to get 'em out..
>>>>> I
>>>>> did not break them off for hum.
>>>>
>>>> So why haven't you fixed 'em?
>>>
>>> Fixed 'em? not that easy, I need to replace 'em like suggested; don't
>>> know
>>> where I can find replacements around here, will have to order from away
>>
>> Where's "around here"?
>>
>> In the US, you can get grounded replacement plugs at any Home Depot or
>> Lowes, and many local mom&pop hardware stores.
>
> in hundreds of thousands of interfaces with edison pugs and receptacales I
> have yet to experiance a ground lug"just coming off normaly"
>
> george
Well buddy these did, for whatever reason, maybe they got stepped on; some
were bent and had to be straightened and later failed, but this is not the
point; the point is it was not intentional.
req

[reqluq]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> You guys are somehow cracking me up.
>
> I never worked in the Bahamas, but I did work in many third world
> countries.
>
> An "electrician" just means someone that has a screwdriver and can
> install plugs in parallel, and putting a switch on a light.
>
> A "hardware store" is an open air market where you'll find live
> chickens and goats, vegetables, and some hardware from "everything for
> 1 dollar".
>
> They could work but they always miss something, so they'll have to
> come back tomorrow. Help this guy, tell him how to use a lightbulb to
> test his ground and how to install a new ground rod to be safe. Maybe
> he doesn't have the money to import premium power plugs, a ground
> tester and a meter!

Oh for goodness sake, I hope you're joking with this, but just in case
rembrant; we have had cable and dsl here for years... lots of *first world*
countries are still very much on dial up in some areas for whatever reason.
I won't even touch the electrician and hardware store quirk.
I understand the ground is an extra safety but remember it all goes back to
the same bar as the neutral which in essence is a ground/return. If the
ground in the hotel is no good then my ground is useless.
My ground is there in case I get a short in my equipment i.e. a loose hot
touching something, then the ground will hopefully be found as a better
choice route to ground than my body. I understand this. But like I said if
the hotels outless are messed up, then that's moot.
req

[reqluq]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> You guys are somehow cracking me up.
.. Help this guy, tell him how to use a lightbulb to
> test his ground and how to install a new ground rod to be safe. Maybe
> he doesn't have the money to import premium power plugs, a ground
> tester and a meter!
Umm ...ahem... I have two, yes two motif es's one is an 8 and the other a 6
as a backup in case the 8 goes bad. I have my own rig: three mackie srm
450's two mixers dfx 6 and cfx 16. All improted from swee****er.. by fed
ex... so I do think I have enough money to import premium power plugs...
thank you very much..
req

[reqluq]

> wrote in message
.. .
>
> On 2007-02-04 said:
> >>> I've had 'em since they were new. I am the only sound guy
> >>> in my group. They (the ground pins on he power cords)
> >>> would get stuck/broken off in the power bar surge
> >>> protector, and I would have to pull 'em out with a nose
> >>> pliers, some (the power bars) I had to actually open to
> >>> get 'em out.. I did not break them off for hum.
> If you're breaking them off in plug bars etcetera you're
> mistreating them.
I will be more careful

> >don't know where I can find replacements around here, will have to
>
> YOu replace the whole plug, and you should be able to find
> replacements at just about any of those home repair houses.

The only replacement plugs are two fat, can't find the small ones here.

> IF those that were supplied as original equipment were
> manufactured properly you shouldn't be having this problem
> repeatedly. I'd think if this was a regular problem with
> these for most we'd be hearing about it, which tells me
> you're abusing them in some way when you disconnect them.
> RUn, quickly before you perform again using them to a HOme
> depot or other such place and get the replacement plugs,
> usually they don't even need to be soldered to the cables
> but have screw terminals.
>
>
>
> Richard webb,
> Electric Spider Productions
> Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
> email address.
>
>
>
> Braille: support true literacy for the blind.
>

[Laurence Payne]

On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:39:18 -0500, "reqluq"
> wrote:

>Well buddy these did, for whatever reason, maybe they got stepped on; some
>were bent and had to be straightened and later failed, but this is not the
>point; the point is it was not intentional.

We believe you. But when something breaks, you fix it. Don't you?

You'd have fixed anything BUT the ground pin, 'cos you'd have HAD to
:-)

[hank alrich]

reqluq > wrote:

> so I do think I have enough money to import premium power plugs...
> thank you very much..

Now we're getting somewhere . <g>

If the ground pins broke off the plugs spontaneously that could well be
due to pulling the power cable out by the cable (instead of by gripping
the plug), which usually doesn't pull it out straightly. The grounding
pin is longer than its two plug mates and can easily get bent. Then one
bends it back into place. Do that a few times, the metal fatigues and
the pin breaks.

--
ha
"Iraq" is Arabic for "Vietnam"

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
.. .
> reqluq > wrote:
>
>> so I do think I have enough money to import premium power plugs...
>> thank you very much..
>
> Now we're getting somewhere . <g>
>
> If the ground pins broke off the plugs spontaneously that could well be
> due to pulling the power cable out by the cable (instead of by gripping
> the plug), which usually doesn't pull it out straightly. The grounding
> pin is longer than its two plug mates and can easily get bent. Then one
> bends it back into place. Do that a few times, the metal fatigues and
> the pin breaks.
>
but IMO takeing pliers and twisting a ground prong back in pace would
constitute either a emergency repair, providing one did not break the
ground prong in the process
or a
emergency replacment/out of service condition if the ground prong was
damaged

either way its not "just coming off normally"
george

[TimPerry]

But like I said if
> the hotels outless are messed up, then that's moot.
> req
>
>

in the one location that you are experiencing problems what type of floor
are you standing on? is there any chance it is conductive?

you arn't barefoot by any chance?

[[email protected]]

On 2007-02-07 said:
>"hank alrich" > wrote in message
>> If the ground pins broke off the plugs spontaneously that could
>>well be due to pulling the power cable out by the cable (instead
>>of by gripping the plug), which usually doesn't pull it out
>>straightly. The grounding pin is longer than its two plug mates
>>and can easily get bent. Then one bends it back into place. Do
>>that a few times, the metal fatigues and the pin breaks.
>but IMO takeing pliers and twisting a ground prong back in pace
>would constitute either a emergency repair, providing one did not
>break the ground prong in the process
>or a
>emergency replacment/out of service condition if the ground prong
>was damaged
>either way its not "just coming off normally"
IN either case, I find that the other two prongs on an
edison are easier to bend back into position. THat ground
pin is thick, where the other two are thin blade like
prongs. IT's easier to bend those and not the ground pin.
IF he's having to bend the ground pins he's not handling
them properly.



Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
- Derek Bok, 1978

[reqluq]

"TimPerry" > wrote in message
...
> But like I said if
>> the hotels outless are messed up, then that's moot.
>> req
>>
>>
>
> in the one location that you are experiencing problems what type of floor
> are you standing on? is there any chance it is conductive?
>
> you arn't barefoot by any chance?

Nahh, shoes andd socks. on a tile floor
req

[reqluq]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
.. .
> reqluq > wrote:
>
>> so I do think I have enough money to import premium power plugs...
>> thank you very much..
>
> Now we're getting somewhere . <g>
>
> If the ground pins broke off the plugs spontaneously that could well be
> due to pulling the power cable out by the cable (instead of by gripping
> the plug), which usually doesn't pull it out straightly. The grounding
> pin is longer than its two plug mates and can easily get bent. Then one
> bends it back into place. Do that a few times, the metal fatigues and
> the pin breaks.
Yes.now we *are* getting somewhere. I think along with a few missteps and
bumps in the gig bag maybe all contributed to the breakage
req

[[email protected]]

On 6 Feb, 16:57, "reqluq" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...> You guys are somehow cracking me up.
>
> . Help this guy, tell him how to use a lightbulb to> test his ground and how to install a new ground rod to be safe. Maybe
> > he doesn't have the money to import premium power plugs, a ground
> > tester and a meter!
>
> Umm ...ahem... I have two, yes two motif es's one is an 8 and the other a 6
> as a backup in case the 8 goes bad. I have my own rig: three mackie srm
> 450's two mixers dfx 6 and cfx 16. All improted from swee****er.. by fed
> ex... so I do think I have enough money to import premium power plugs...
> thank you very much..
> req

I reread what I posted and realized I should have underlined that I
know nothing about your country (or your financial situation), so
please accept my apologies for me being a troll. But... I'll repeat
that I've seen incredible things in some countries!

Phil

[TimPerry]

> > But like I said if
> >> the hotels outless are messed up, then that's moot.
> >> req
> >>
> >>
> >
> > in the one location that you are experiencing problems what type of
floor
> > are you standing on? is there any chance it is conductive?
> >
> > you arn't barefoot by any chance?
>
> Nahh, shoes andd socks. on a tile floor
> req
>

it been quite some time since i have encountered the lip shock thing and
then it was a guitarist.

given the conditions you describe, you should be concerned for your safety.
at the least take care not to ground yourself and touch the equipment at the
same time until the issue is resolved.

you may recall the minister in Texas who was electrocuted in his baptismal,
it turned out the mic he was touching was properly grounded but the water
heater had developed a short.

i received a jolt one time from touching 2 mic stands at the same time. they
were part of different systems. one was powered from an outlet that had a
problem. even though the ground prong was intact i still got a zap. i
suspect the problem was that some load elsewhere in the circuit was using
the ground wire in place of the neutral and the ground had developed a high
resistance. i was under pressure to get a system up and running and was
being scrutinized by armed bodyguards so i informed the client of the issue
with the outlet and found someplace else to plug into.

on another occasion i discovered someone had disconnected the ground inside
the shell of an extension cord. that was after i got bit by touching a metal
door frame.

in addition i have seen ground prongs come apart as you describe. not often,
but on heavily used road equipment it happens sometimes. just replace the
plug or cable and proceed.