VHS HiFi audio track dropping out

[[email protected]]

I'm trying to recover recordings from on a couple of old VHS tapes.

It sounds like most of the time the linear audio track is being played,
and occasionally the HiFi track breaks through. The on-screen display
of my VCR seems to agree with this.

The picture quality seems quite reasonable. There are no break ups. And
yet the HiFi track which I believe is multiplexed with the video signal
is being dropped out by my player, presumably because the player thinks
the HiFi audio signal is not good enough. It seems odd that the video
signal is OK but the HiFi signal (which I would have presumed would
have a lower frequency) is considered too poor.

Is there anything I can do to get the HiFi audio to play consistently?

The player has auto tracking with no manual adjustment, so
unfortunately I can't fiddle with that.

Might this be improved by cleaning the heads?

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>I'm trying to recover recordings from on a couple of old VHS tapes.
>
>It sounds like most of the time the linear audio track is being played,
>and occasionally the HiFi track breaks through. The on-screen display
>of my VCR seems to agree with this.

Get an RF spectrum analyzer and hang it off one of the head test points.
You ought to be able to see a peak from the HiFi carrier. Once you see
it, you can figure out what is going on.

It's possible with some tape path poking here and there you can get it
to come up to the level where the discriminator locks in. But if there
isn't enough coming off the head, it won't lock up.

>The picture quality seems quite reasonable. There are no break ups. And
>yet the HiFi track which I believe is multiplexed with the video signal
>is being dropped out by my player, presumably because the player thinks
>the HiFi audio signal is not good enough. It seems odd that the video
>signal is OK but the HiFi signal (which I would have presumed would
>have a lower frequency) is considered too poor.

The HiFi signal is an FM subcarrier on top of the video, and it drops out
before the video starts to degrade too badly. The system really is a
bag on the side of a format that was pretty lousy to begin with.

>Is there anything I can do to get the HiFi audio to play consistently?
>
>The player has auto tracking with no manual adjustment, so
>unfortunately I can't fiddle with that.

That needs to be disabled, and also the skew needs to be made manually
adjustable. Control track azimuth adjustment may also make some difference
as well but you need to have the spectrum analyzer up so you can see if you
are making things better or worse. Right now all you can tell is that it
is locked or unlocked, you can't tell anything else.

>Might this be improved by cleaning the heads?

Maybe.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Richard Crowley]

> wrote ...
> I'm trying to recover recordings from on a couple of old VHS tapes.
>
> It sounds like most of the time the linear audio track is being played,
> and occasionally the HiFi track breaks through. The on-screen display
> of my VCR seems to agree with this.
>
> The picture quality seems quite reasonable. There are no break ups. And
> yet the HiFi track which I believe is multiplexed with the video signal
> is being dropped out by my player, presumably because the player thinks
> the HiFi audio signal is not good enough. It seems odd that the video
> signal is OK but the HiFi signal (which I would have presumed would
> have a lower frequency) is considered too poor.
>
> Is there anything I can do to get the HiFi audio to play consistently?
>
> The player has auto tracking with no manual adjustment, so
> unfortunately I can't fiddle with that.

1) Play it back on the same machine that recorded it.
or
2) Play it back on the same make/model machine
or
3) Play it back on a machine with tracking adjustments.
or
4) Send it to a professional who specializes in that kind of
recovery and has the tools and experience to do it.

You can't expect to do any serious recovery of vintage
recordings on a simple auto-tracking machine. Especially
a different make/model.

[William Sommerwerck]

> The HiFi signal is an FM subcarrier on top of the video, and it
> drops out before the video starts to degrade too badly.

It's not a subcarrier, but a carrier. And it's actually "below" the video
carrier -- literally. The system used is "depth multiplexing". The sound is
recorded first, then the video carrier -- which is at a higher frequency --
overwrites the upper layer of the sound carrier.

Though I susect the actual problem is more complex, it couldn't hurt to
clean the heads.

[Carey Carlan]

"Richard Crowley" > wrote in news:51ns2lF1lds4tU1
@mid.individual.net:

> 1) Play it back on the same machine that recorded it.
> or
> 2) Play it back on the same make/model machine
> or
> 3) Play it back on a machine with tracking adjustments.
> or
> 4) Send it to a professional who specializes in that kind of
> recovery and has the tools and experience to do it.
>
> You can't expect to do any serious recovery of vintage
> recordings on a simple auto-tracking machine. Especially
> a different make/model.

If your VCR is old, spurge $50 and buy a new one. New heads may fix the
problem. I'm transferring my 1980's PCM-F1 recordings now. I have the
original $800 vcr, but I'm using a $50 Zenith for the transfer. It tracks
much better because it's new. (I also clean heads after each tape.)

[Daniel Mandic]

wrote:

> Is there anything I can do to get the HiFi audio to play consistently?

Take good Tapes....

Try it on a different HiFi VHS Machine...
Your HiFi track, which is magnetically below the Video Track, seems to
be distorted.

I have had such switchings betweeen the 'std.' and the 'HiFi' Track,
with buy-cassettes (Movies) and I have had to disable the HiFi-Track to
listen normally. (Azimuth troubles!?)

> Might this be improved by cleaning the heads?

I would try it with a Video Head-Cleaner Spray. Don't touch the Heads!
Read carefully instructions, how to clean Video/Audio Heads!!! (Don't
destroy/remove the grease, with too much cleaner-liquid etc...)



Best Regards,

Daniel Mandic

[[email protected]]

Thanks everyone for the information. It seems to be getting
increasingly difficult to find new VCRs for sale in the shops. I'm not
sure it would help to buy another cheap auto-tracking-only VCR to
replace my existing one that is only 4 years old and hasn't had very
much use.

Another possibility that struck me is to buy an S-VHS model from Ebay
and run a head cleaner through it for good measure.

Are S-VHS decks able to extract a better quality picture off a VHS tape
than a VHS deck?

[Daniel Mandic]

wrote:

> Are S-VHS decks able to extract a better quality picture off a VHS
> tape than a VHS deck?


I would say no, in the meaning of extract. My experience shows, the
recording-machine plays it back best.
Reference recordings are an other story... (well tuned VCR's)

But. They (S-VHS) are mainly outfitted with Reference-Tuner (otherwise
S-VHS makes no sense, IMHO) and other high-end circuits for better
(more black, deeper, faster etc..) Video and Audio.

(Lookout for Panasonic. If you want decent Video, lookout for Grundig
S-VHS Saurier :). Panasonic sound better... maybe the better choice for
HiFi, IMO!! Various SONY models are also O.K., also more Audio as
Panasonic. Grundig is unique with Video-Quality, seven points better
than Panasonic. Philips is also strong with Video and quiet good with
HiFi.)

It is possible to play a recording better back than on the
source-machine! I have met that many time with Compact-Cassette
Recorder.




Best Regards,

Daniel Mandic

[William Sommerwerck]

> Are S-VHS decks able to extract a better quality picture
> off a VHS tape than a VHS deck?

If they have time-base correction, perhaps.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 23, 2:34 pm, " > wrote:
> The player has auto tracking with no manual adjustment, so
> unfortunately I can't fiddle with that.

It does sound like mistracking.

A surprising number of decks that don't appear to give manual
adjustment DO have this as a hidden feature. While the TAPE IS PLAYING,
try using the channel up/down buttons.

On a lot of decks, these buttons change functions if the tape is in
PLAY.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 24, 2:13 pm, " > wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2:34 pm, " > wrote:
>
> > The player has auto tracking with no manual adjustment, so
> > unfortunately I can't fiddle with that.It does sound like mistracking.
>
> A surprising number of decks that don't appear to give manual
> adjustment DO have this as a hidden feature. While the TAPE IS PLAYING,
> try using the channel up/down buttons.

Wow! You're right! Channel up and down adjusts tracking. The HiFi track
now plays fine most of the time. Thank you so much.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm trying to recover recordings from on a couple of old VHS tapes.
>
> It sounds like most of the time the linear audio track is being played,
> and occasionally the HiFi track breaks through. The on-screen display
> of my VCR seems to agree with this.
>
> The picture quality seems quite reasonable. There are no break ups. And
> yet the HiFi track which I believe is multiplexed with the video signal
> is being dropped out by my player, presumably because the player thinks
> the HiFi audio signal is not good enough. It seems odd that the video
> signal is OK but the HiFi signal (which I would have presumed would
> have a lower frequency) is considered too poor.
>
> Is there anything I can do to get the HiFi audio to play consistently?
>
> The player has auto tracking with no manual adjustment, so
> unfortunately I can't fiddle with that.

I've owned
over a dozen hi-fi VCRs and all of them have some means of manually
adjusting the tracking. It's not always obvious, but it's always there.
Often the Ch up and down controls turn into tracking adjustments during
playback. Play around with it.

Are these tapes recorded at the SP speed? If so, the tracking will not
necessarily be the same for audio and video, since the audio tracks use the
same heads for both speeds.

Norm Strong

[Jean]

Le 23 Jan 2007 11:34:11 -0800, "
> a écrit :

>I'm trying to recover recordings from on a couple of old VHS tapes.
>
>It sounds like most of the time the linear audio track is being played,
>and occasionally the HiFi track breaks through. The on-screen display
>of my VCR seems to agree with this.
>
>The picture quality seems quite reasonable. There are no break ups. And
>yet the HiFi track which I believe is multiplexed with the video signal
>is being dropped out by my player, presumably because the player thinks
>the HiFi audio signal is not good enough. It seems odd that the video
>signal is OK but the HiFi signal (which I would have presumed would
>have a lower frequency) is considered too poor.

The HiFi signal is recorded in the depth of the tape , behind the
Video signal, that explains why Hi Fi sound goes out first when the
heads are dirty, worn, or the tracking is bad. The video is good,
analog sound is here but HiFi sound goes in and out.




>
>Is there anything I can do to get the HiFi audio to play consistently?
>
>The player has auto tracking with no manual adjustment, so
>unfortunately I can't fiddle with that.
>
>Might this be improved by cleaning the heads?

Yes, it can be, or try to adjust the tracking, if it doesn't work try
a VCR with a low mileage or a new one.

Hope it helps,
Jean

[Daniel Mandic]

Jean wrote:

> The HiFi signal is recorded in the depth of the tape , behind the
> Video signal, that explains why Hi Fi sound goes out first when the
> heads are dirty, worn, or the tracking is bad. The video is good,
> analog sound is here but HiFi sound goes in and out.

Hi Jean!


Lenghtwise-recording (analog, not really HiFi :-), >15KHz and noisy,
due to low tape-speed) and slantwise-recording (analog HiFi, <16KHz,
some Meters/Feets per second, very less noise, no Dolby needed!! but a
thinner track than a Tape Machine and head-crackles, due to the
operating-change of the two Audio-Heads swirling on the Video-Head).

All at all, I have some records recorded to VHS HiFi.... Exceptional!

Well, sometimes I hear dropouts (noise-vanes). Other tapes are better,
etc etc.
I should try/listen some HiFi-Tapes for VHS, which I have used for
Audio recordings one time, to see if they bahave more reliable. (better
HiFi-Track Quality!?)




Best Regards,

Daniel Mandic

[Tom McCreadie]

Jean > wrote:

<snip>
>The video is good, analog sound is here but HiFi sound goes in and out.
Should that not be ".., the linear track sound is here but..."?
The HiFi sound is also analog, not digital.

--
Tom McCreadie

[Les Cargill]

wrote:
> Thanks everyone for the information. It seems to be getting
> increasingly difficult to find new VCRs for sale in the shops. I'm not
> sure it would help to buy another cheap auto-tracking-only VCR to
> replace my existing one that is only 4 years old and hasn't had very
> much use.

I don't understand - every box store in reach here has piles
of 'em - not to mention combination DVD player/VCR boxes. They're
like $30 or $40 US.

>
> Another possibility that struck me is to buy an S-VHS model from Ebay
> and run a head cleaner through it for good measure.
>
> Are S-VHS decks able to extract a better quality picture off a VHS tape
> than a VHS deck?
>

S-VHS may or may not even support HiFi.

--
Les Cargill

[Jean]

Le Wed, 24 Jan 2007 23:59:17 +0100, Tom McCreadie
> a écrit :

>Jean > wrote:
>
><snip>
>>The video is good, analog sound is here but HiFi sound goes in and out.
>Should that not be ".., the linear track sound is here but..."?
>The HiFi sound is also analog, not digital.


Yes, you're right, thanks for correcting,i used a wrong word, i was
perhaps influenced by the digital/analogue debates.
Jean

[Peter Larsen]

" wrote:


>> A surprising number of decks that don't appear to give manual
>> adjustment DO have this as a hidden feature. While the TAPE IS
>> PLAYING, try using the channel up/down buttons.

> Wow! You're right! Channel up and down adjusts tracking. The HiFi
> track now plays fine most of the time. Thank you so much.

Nobody said this early in thread, so here goes: wind and rewind and play
from start to end without stopping and transfer everything even if you
need only 30 seconds somewhere on the tape. This because you may not get
another clean replay in case things are getting marginal.


Regards

Peter Larsen