Rookie Guitar Recording Question

[Tony M]

Hey,

I just finished building a studio in my house and am still getting all
my gear. I have been playing around with recording my amp and have a
question. Note, I play a Les Paul and have about a 10 year old Marshall
JCM900 amp. I have been experimenting recording with both an SM57 and
an SM81. I am using an old Roland VS880 until I get my new recording
gear.

My crunchy tone sounds incredible in the room. Sounds like a monster.
However when recording it loses the bite to some degree. It also sounds
"a little messy", meaning there's some kind of overtone that makes
distinguishing individual sounds a little tough. When I play with a
clean sound, it is perfect.

Is there some kind of compressor or something I need to use on it while
recording to get the crunch back and to lose this "messy sound"?



Thank you for your help.

Tony

[Danny T]

Tony M wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I just finished building a studio in my house and am still getting all
> my gear. I have been playing around with recording my amp and have a
> question. Note, I play a Les Paul and have about a 10 year old Marshall
> JCM900 amp. I have been experimenting recording with both an SM57 and
> an SM81. I am using an old Roland VS880 until I get my new recording
> gear.
>
> My crunchy tone sounds incredible in the room. Sounds like a monster.
> However when recording it loses the bite to some degree. It also sounds
> "a little messy", meaning there's some kind of overtone that makes
> distinguishing individual sounds a little tough. When I play with a
> clean sound, it is perfect.
>
> Is there some kind of compressor or something I need to use on it while
> recording to get the crunch back and to lose this "messy sound"?
>
>
>
> Thank you for your help.
>
> Tony

I'd suggest you put a finger in one ear and move your head around until
you hear what it is you're after. Then, pick a mic that will catch that
kind of sound the best and place it where your ear was when you hear
that wound, in the angle of your ear when you heard it and at the
distance your ear was. then check the mic a bit and fine tune the
position. That should get your sound for you.

[[email protected]]

Tony M wrote:
> My crunchy tone sounds incredible in the room. Sounds like a monster.
> However when recording it loses the bite to some degree. It also sounds
> "a little messy", meaning there's some kind of overtone that makes
> distinguishing individual sounds a little tough. When I play with a
> clean sound, it is perfect.
>
> Is there some kind of compressor or something I need to use on it while
> recording to get the crunch back and to lose this "messy sound"?


Tony,

Experiment with mic placement. The 57 is suited for close micing
while the 81 really isn't (if it's too loud it'll be overloaded, though
the -10 pad can solve that). Use the 81 set back a few feet and
combine it with the 57 close to the speaker. One thing that people
forget to do with recording amps is that you should put your head where
the mic will be (without blowing your ears out obviously : ) ) and
move from place to place and find where it sound best. Check out how
the speakers may all sounded a little different, and how directly in
front of one is different from a few inches over. Directly in front
and pointed slightly towards the cone (away from the center) is usually
how I start and work from there. Find a place in the room where you
think the amp sounds good from and put the 81 there, and put the pad on
the mic if it seems more overloaded than what you hear. Put them on
separate tracks and blend them to see if a certain ratio works for you
(If the sound gets thinner as the amounts become equal, the two mics
are out of phase with each other. (Switch the phase on one if that's
a problem, though sometimes sneaking in a bit of an out of phase mic
can be a good sound)

While I wouldn't say never add anything outboard to it, you need to
make it sound so you like it first and then add the spice. A
compressor won't fix what you're describing.

Also make sure you're not overloading anything in the chain (mic
inputs, channels, masters, etc) because that'll add smoosh to what
you're hearing live.

[Scott Dorsey]

Tony M > wrote:
>
>My crunchy tone sounds incredible in the room. Sounds like a monster.
>However when recording it loses the bite to some degree. It also sounds
>"a little messy", meaning there's some kind of overtone that makes
>distinguishing individual sounds a little tough. When I play with a
>clean sound, it is perfect.

What if you take the amp and mike out into another room, or outside
and record it there. Does the messiness change? Does it get better
or worse?

If you're getting the same sort of thing with both an SM-57 and an SM-81,
it's not the mike. So it's either the room or something else in the
recording chain.

>Is there some kind of compressor or something I need to use on it while
>recording to get the crunch back and to lose this "messy sound"?

No, more likely there's something you need to get _out_ of the signal
path rather than something you need to add _in_.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Phil Wilson]

I was looking at a photo of a Beatles recording session the other day and
thinking about how instructive it can be. The have their combos up on chairs
(to reduce floor effects), in the middle of the room (because open-backed
combos backed against a wall reflect off the wall and back at the mic, miced
with Neumann mics, and of course the studio itself has its own
characteristics that are hopefully flattering. These are all variables
worth experimenting with, as well as the usual mic positioning things.
--
Phil Wilson

"Tony M" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hey,
>
> I just finished building a studio in my house and am still getting all
> my gear. I have been playing around with recording my amp and have a
> question. Note, I play a Les Paul and have about a 10 year old Marshall
> JCM900 amp. I have been experimenting recording with both an SM57 and
> an SM81. I am using an old Roland VS880 until I get my new recording
> gear.
>
> My crunchy tone sounds incredible in the room. Sounds like a monster.
> However when recording it loses the bite to some degree. It also sounds
> "a little messy", meaning there's some kind of overtone that makes
> distinguishing individual sounds a little tough. When I play with a
> clean sound, it is perfect.
>
> Is there some kind of compressor or something I need to use on it while
> recording to get the crunch back and to lose this "messy sound"?
>
>
>
> Thank you for your help.
>
> Tony
>

[reddred]

"Tony M" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> My crunchy tone sounds incredible in the room. Sounds like a monster.
> However when recording it loses the bite to some degree. It also sounds
> "a little messy", meaning there's some kind of overtone that makes
> distinguishing individual sounds a little tough. When I play with a
> clean sound, it is perfect.
>
> Is there some kind of compressor or something I need to use on it while
> recording to get the crunch back and to lose this "messy sound"?
>
>

A compressor in the recording chain won't make a difference, and a
compressor in the guitar chain will only change the sound you like. Really
if you hear a good sound, you should be able to record it. Try walking
around the room and put the mic where you hear the sound you like. It's
possible you are micing the amp too close, amps are loud and you can back
off a lot.

jb

[Fletch]

wrote:

>
> Experiment with mic placement. The 57 is suited for close micing
> while the 81 really isn't (if it's too loud it'll be overloaded, though
> the -10 pad can solve that).

Ummm, correct me if I'm wrong, but the pad doesn't reduce distortion at
the diaphram which could be overloading because of too high spl (mic
too close to source), that device will only keep the preamp from
overloading by reducing signal, not sound pressure.

> Use the 81 set back a few feet

....this will help prevent diaphram distortion, yep.

> combine it with the 57 close to the speaker.

Which can work, but can also cause phasing problems. If you can flip
the phase on one of the mics, then the potential problem may go away.
But...

The 'messy' sound is more than likely due to the room
acoustics/treatment. If you merely put a room together, but didn't do
the preparatory work of design, which includes many factors I won't go
into that include bass traps, diffusors, absorption and other stuff,
then you're going to have standing waves, cancellation and other issues
too numerous to mention.

--Fletch

[[email protected]]

Fletch wrote:
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Experiment with mic placement. The 57 is suited for close micing
> > while the 81 really isn't (if it's too loud it'll be overloaded, though
> > the -10 pad can solve that).
>
> Ummm, correct me if I'm wrong, but the pad doesn't reduce distortion at
> the diaphram which could be overloading because of too high spl (mic
> too close to source), that device will only keep the preamp from
> overloading by reducing signal, not sound pressure.



Yeah, the pad's at the output. Shouldn't have been refering to
overloading the mic. Overloading the channel from the too hot signal
from the mic.



> The 'messy' sound is more than likely due to the room
> acoustics/treatment. If you merely put a room together, but didn't do
> the preparatory work of design, which includes many factors I won't go
> into that include bass traps, diffusors, absorption and other stuff,
> then you're going to have standing waves, cancellation and other issues
> too numerous to mention.


But he loves the sound of the amp in the room, so that stuff's not a
factor.

Y'know, it really could be anything between the amp and the end. I
don't know the Roland but maybe that's what its preamps or signal path
does. Does it do a better job on other sounds? Or maybe playback in
a better environment would sound good but the monitoring is the
culprit...amp, speakers. Certainly the acoustics regarding the
monitoring, so if that's what you're talking about, yes, for sure.

[Willie K. Yee, MD]

On 21 Jan 2007 12:05:21 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
hain.
>
>>Is there some kind of compressor or something I need to use on it while
>>recording to get the crunch back and to lose this "messy sound"?
>
>No, more likely there's something you need to get _out_ of the signal
>path rather than something you need to add _in_.
>--scott
>
I put my money on the room. Statistics on rookies suggest this is
always the first thing overlooked.

[Tony M]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the advice...i will try moving the mics around and
figure out how to get the sound I want.

Thanks so much

Tony

On Jan 22, 5:05 am, "reddred" > wrote:
> "Tony M" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
>
> > My crunchy tone sounds incredible in the room. Sounds like a monster.
> > However when recording it loses the bite to some degree. It also sounds
> > "a little messy", meaning there's some kind of overtone that makes
> > distinguishing individual sounds a little tough. When I play with a
> > clean sound, it is perfect.
>
> > Is there some kind of compressor or something I need to use on it while
> > recording to get the crunch back and to lose this "messy sound"?A compressor in the recording chain won't make a difference, and a
> compressor in the guitar chain will only change the sound you like. Really
> if you hear a good sound, you should be able to record it. Try walking
> around the room and put the mic where you hear the sound you like. It's
> possible you are micing the amp too close, amps are loud and you can back
> off a lot.
>
> jb

[DW Griffi]

In article >,
(Willie K. Yee, MD) wrote:

> On 21 Jan 2007 12:05:21 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> hain.
> >
> >>Is there some kind of compressor or something I need to use on it while
> >>recording to get the crunch back and to lose this "messy sound"?
> >
> >No, more likely there's something you need to get _out_ of the signal
> >path rather than something you need to add _in_.
> >--scott
> >
> I put my money on the room. Statistics on rookies suggest this is
> always the first thing overlooked.




But since the OP says he likes the sound of the amp in the room I'd put
off futzing with room stuff until the mic and signal path options are
explored. If the amp sounded great elsewhere but mushy in the room
then tweak the room, eh? : )

DW

--
remove 555 from address to reply

[darrelldklein]

The 'plug one ear and find a spot where you like the sound and put a
mic there' is good advice.

One of the things I found with many guitarists is that the mic picks
up a sound that is what is usually blasting at the player's knees.
This is usually what everyone else in the room hears too.

You hear probably hear something else (a sound that you are used to
and like to hear) up at head level. You might ultimately need to
change the sound coming out of the amp speaker while you play to get
the sound you want on tape.

On Jan 21, 10:25 am, "Tony M" > wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I just finished building a studio in my house and am still getting all
> my gear. I have been playing around with recording my amp and have a
> question. Note, I play a Les Paul and have about a 10 year old Marshall
> JCM900 amp. I have been experimenting recording with both an SM57 and
> an SM81. I am using an old Roland VS880 until I get my new recording
> gear.
>
> My crunchy tone sounds incredible in the room. Sounds like a monster.
> However when recording it loses the bite to some degree. It also sounds
> "a little messy", meaning there's some kind of overtone that makes
> distinguishing individual sounds a little tough. When I play with a
> clean sound, it is perfect.
>
> Is there some kind of compressor or something I need to use on it while
> recording to get the crunch back and to lose this "messy sound"?
>
> Thank you for your help.
>
> Tony