Making a digital piano sound more natural ?

[Daniel]

Hi,

I'm pretty much stuck at using my Yamaha P-70 to record at the studio.
I have a mostly all analog setup, including tape machines and mixers,
add to this a few effects units, mics and compressor. It's all semi-pro
stuff and I usually track piano and do the vocal later. I'm a one
person recordist. I used to record on a pretty cheap upright, got rid
of it due to space constraints but I miss the way it sounded. My P-70,
and just about any digital piano I tried in store, sounded sterile and
thus my question as to any tips, that you may have, for example using
EQ on my board or anything that you can think of, to make the P-70
sound more realistic or genuine ? I tend to like recording dry with
just a bit of limiting on the transients, something you'd hear from the
50's, and I wish to make the P70 at least sound like it could pass
sounding like that. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Daniel

[Richard Crowley]

"Daniel" wrote ...

> I'm pretty much stuck at using my Yamaha P-70 to record at the studio.
> I have a mostly all analog setup, including tape machines and mixers,
> add to this a few effects units, mics and compressor. It's all semi-pro
> stuff and I usually track piano and do the vocal later. I'm a one
> person recordist. I used to record on a pretty cheap upright, got rid
> of it due to space constraints but I miss the way it sounded. My P-70,
> and just about any digital piano I tried in store, sounded sterile and
> thus my question as to any tips, that you may have, for example using
> EQ on my board or anything that you can think of, to make the P-70
> sound more realistic or genuine ? I tend to like recording dry with
> just a bit of limiting on the transients, something you'd hear from the
> 50's, and I wish to make the P70 at least sound like it could pass
> sounding like that. Any help would be appreciated.

http://www.synthogy.com/

[Doc Weaver]

Daniel wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm pretty much stuck at using my Yamaha P-70 to record at the studio.
> I have a mostly all analog setup, including tape machines and mixers,
> add to this a few effects units, mics and compressor. It's all semi-pro
> stuff and I usually track piano and do the vocal later. I'm a one
> person recordist. I used to record on a pretty cheap upright, got rid
> of it due to space constraints but I miss the way it sounded. My P-70,
> and just about any digital piano I tried in store, sounded sterile and
> thus my question as to any tips, that you may have, for example using
> EQ on my board or anything that you can think of, to make the P-70
> sound more realistic or genuine ? I tend to like recording dry with
> just a bit of limiting on the transients, something you'd hear from the
> 50's, and I wish to make the P70 at least sound like it could pass
> sounding like that. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Daniel

Daniel,

What your missing is the soundboard on your piano. Your real piano
produced sympathetic tones every time you hit the sustain pedal. The
Yamaha pianos are some of the best on board samples, but they don't
have a soundboard. General music is the only keyboard, that I know of,
that has a soundboard emulator (Promega 3).

You might try to find ways of boosting harmonics to the tonic of each
song. It's a lot of work, and may/may not work, but that's about all I
have. Sorry I couldn't be more help.

Doc Weaver

[Andy Eng]

Daniel wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm pretty much stuck at using my Yamaha P-70 to record at the studio.
> I have a mostly all analog setup, including tape machines and mixers,
> add to this a few effects units, mics and compressor. It's all semi-pro
> stuff and I usually track piano and do the vocal later. I'm a one
> person recordist. I used to record on a pretty cheap upright, got rid
> of it due to space constraints but I miss the way it sounded. My P-70,
> and just about any digital piano I tried in store, sounded sterile and
> thus my question as to any tips, that you may have, for example using
> EQ on my board or anything that you can think of, to make the P-70
> sound more realistic or genuine ? I tend to like recording dry with

Play the P-70 into the room with the monitors facing a bouncy wall,
hype the necessary EQ, add a cup or two of ambience and mic the room?
Unless you've a noisy room...

> just a bit of limiting on the transients, something you'd hear from the
> 50's, and I wish to make the P70 at least sound like it could pass
> sounding like that. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Daniel

[Scott Dorsey]

Daniel > wrote:
>
>I'm pretty much stuck at using my Yamaha P-70 to record at the studio.
>I have a mostly all analog setup, including tape machines and mixers,
>add to this a few effects units, mics and compressor. It's all semi-pro
>stuff and I usually track piano and do the vocal later. I'm a one
>person recordist. I used to record on a pretty cheap upright, got rid
>of it due to space constraints but I miss the way it sounded. My P-70,
>and just about any digital piano I tried in store, sounded sterile and
>thus my question as to any tips, that you may have, for example using
>EQ on my board or anything that you can think of, to make the P-70
>sound more realistic or genuine ? I tend to like recording dry with
>just a bit of limiting on the transients, something you'd hear from the
>50's, and I wish to make the P70 at least sound like it could pass
>sounding like that. Any help would be appreciated.

You can TRY running it into a speaker and recording the room itself, for
a more distant sound that can be more natural-sounding than fake reverb.
It's still not going to sound like a real piano, though.

An interesting trick is to take the recording somewhere else, run it into
a monitor speaker stuck inside a grand piano, and then record the room.
That gives you some of the sympathetic effects and the room sound. It still
isn't quite real, but it's close enough to pass even in a sparse jazz mix
sometimes. It definitely won't pass on a solo track, though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Doc Weaver]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> An interesting trick is to take the recording somewhere else, run it into
> a monitor speaker stuck inside a grand piano, and then record the room.
> That gives you some of the sympathetic effects and the room sound. It still
> isn't quite real, but it's close enough to pass even in a sparse jazz mix
> sometimes. It definitely won't pass on a solo track, though.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

That's a great idea. The physics of it are very sound (forgive the
pun). Seems like that would promote the missing soundboard. I have to
try it. Was it good enough that it fooled people that were not aware
of the trickery?

Doc Weaver

[[email protected]]

On 2007-01-19 (ScottDorsey) said:
>Daniel > wrote:
>>I'm pretty much stuck at using my Yamaha P-70 to record at the
>>studio. I have a mostly all analog setup, including tape machines
>>and mixers, add to this a few effects units, mics and compressor.
<snippage>
>You can TRY running it into a speaker and recording the room itself,
>for a more distant sound that can be more natural-sounding than
>fake reverb. It's still not going to sound like a real piano,
>though.
>An interesting trick is to take the recording somewhere else, run
>it into a monitor speaker stuck inside a grand piano, and then
>record the room. That gives you some of the sympathetic effects and
>the room sound. It still isn't quite real, but it's close enough
>to pass even in a sparse jazz mix sometimes. It definitely won't
>pass on a solo track, though. --scott

Before you do this, be sure to use a patch that is dry, no
artificial reverb created by the box.

One of my main bugaboos with a lot of these electronic
pianos is the artificial reverb they have by default
included with their piano patches <ugh>.
i've even been known to mic up the piano's small speakers as
well as its direct sound. I think for a few things we did
with our church I did a Clavinova that way.




Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



a good captain is hoisting his first drink in a bar
when the storm hits

[GKB]

You probably know too , that depending on the composition , where it is
played
on the piano and the touch of the playing , some spots may be more tolerable
while other give it away more easily , so check what else is hapening at
those points
in the music , may have to bury or minimize it a little so it doesn't poke
out too much ,
more tolerable [ or expected ] in pop these days , but bravo for even using
the piano
where it's harder to find good players these days .

best luck & skill to you , regards Greg



aniel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I'm pretty much stuck at using my Yamaha P-70 to record at the studio.
> I have a mostly all analog setup, including tape machines and mixers,
> add to this a few effects units, mics and compressor. It's all semi-pro
> stuff and I usually track piano and do the vocal later. I'm a one
> person recordist. I used to record on a pretty cheap upright, got rid
> of it due to space constraints but I miss the way it sounded. My P-70,
> and just about any digital piano I tried in store, sounded sterile and
> thus my question as to any tips, that you may have, for example using
> EQ on my board or anything that you can think of, to make the P-70
> sound more realistic or genuine ? I tend to like recording dry with
> just a bit of limiting on the transients, something you'd hear from the
> 50's, and I wish to make the P70 at least sound like it could pass
> sounding like that. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Daniel
>

[Daniel]

Thanks so much guys, for the great advice!

[WillStG]

Daniel wrote:
> My P-70,
> and just about any digital piano I tried in store, sounded sterile and
> thus my question as to any tips, that you may have, for example using
> EQ on my board or anything that you can think of, to make the P-70
> sound more realistic or genuine ?

This just seemed like a good time to mention Casio - yes, Casio!
is making some really, really good and inexpensive digital pianos these
days. 32 voice 88 Key scaled weighted hammers, they really feel a whole
lot like the real thing and the multisamples sound like the real thing
too. Nice elecric pianos and other sounds too.

The Casio Privia CDP-100 is the bottom of the line around $400 and
the Previa PX-110 next at around $500, they do have speakersand midi in
them but only headphones out on these budget models, you have to spend
more for the models with real outputs and usb and more instruments,
etc. (the $599 Privia 310, PX500, PX555 and higher models).

Check 'em out. Oddly, it seems to me the bottom of the line
CDP-100 actually has the best grand sound of the series (through the
onboard speakers.)

Will Miho
NY TV Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Doc Weaver]

GKB wrote:
, but bravo for even using
> the piano
> where it's harder to find good players these days .
>
> best luck & skill to you , regards Greg
>
Seriously, does anyone outside of classic jazz and church music even
know what a real piano sounds like?

Doc Weaver

[Andy Eng]

Doc Weaver wrote:
> GKB wrote:
> , but bravo for even using
> > the piano
> > where it's harder to find good players these days .
> >
> > best luck & skill to you , regards Greg
> >
> Seriously, does anyone outside of classic jazz and church music even
> know what a real piano sounds like?
>
> Doc Weaver

Down in Galveston on what they call the Strand is a renovated warehouse
district where their resides an soda shop (junk food store) with wooden
floors and high concrete ceilings/walls. For a quarter, you get to
hear a player piano play a ragtime piece with the real tape spool and
watch the keys play all by themselves.

*That's* a real piano! <vbg>

[Federico]

Is there a Midi to Piano Rolls converter?
F.


> Down in Galveston on what they call the Strand is a renovated warehouse
> district where their resides an soda shop (junk food store) with wooden
> floors and high concrete ceilings/walls. For a quarter, you get to
> hear a player piano play a ragtime piece with the real tape spool and
> watch the keys play all by themselves.
>
> *That's* a real piano! <vbg>
>

[Andy Eng]

Can't see why not.... Lugging around the piano may be tough though!

Federico wrote:
> Is there a Midi to Piano Rolls converter?
> F.
>
>
> > Down in Galveston on what they call the Strand is a renovated warehouse
> > district where their resides an soda shop (junk food store) with wooden
> > floors and high concrete ceilings/walls. For a quarter, you get to
> > hear a player piano play a ragtime piece with the real tape spool and
> > watch the keys play all by themselves.
> >
> > *That's* a real piano! <vbg>

[Richard Crowley]

"Federico" wrote ...
> Is there a Midi to Piano Rolls converter?

I do believe there is a piano-roll to MIDI converter.
(Actually more than one project, IIRC).

[Doc Weaver]

Andy Eng wrote:
> Doc Weaver wrote:
> > GKB wrote:
> > , but bravo for even using
> > > the piano
> > > where it's harder to find good players these days .
> > >
> > > best luck & skill to you , regards Greg
> > >
> > Seriously, does anyone outside of classic jazz and church music even
> > know what a real piano sounds like?
> >
> > Doc Weaver
>
> Down in Galveston on what they call the Strand is a renovated warehouse
> district where their resides an soda shop (junk food store) with wooden
> floors and high concrete ceilings/walls. For a quarter, you get to
> hear a player piano play a ragtime piece with the real tape spool and
> watch the keys play all by themselves.
>
> *That's* a real piano! <vbg>

I believe you nailed it.

Doc Weaver

[Just Another]

In article >,
"Richard Crowley" > wrote:

> "Federico" wrote ...
> > Is there a Midi to Piano Rolls converter?
>
> I do believe there is a piano-roll to MIDI converter.
> (Actually more than one project, IIRC).

(I realize it's off-topic, sorry)

More than one composer has written exclusively on piano rolls, so that's
a useful conversion!

[Scott Dorsey]

Doc Weaver > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> An interesting trick is to take the recording somewhere else, run it into
>> a monitor speaker stuck inside a grand piano, and then record the room.
>> That gives you some of the sympathetic effects and the room sound. It still
>> isn't quite real, but it's close enough to pass even in a sparse jazz mix
>> sometimes. It definitely won't pass on a solo track, though.
>
>That's a great idea. The physics of it are very sound (forgive the
>pun). Seems like that would promote the missing soundboard. I have to
>try it. Was it good enough that it fooled people that were not aware
>of the trickery?

Probably.

I remember giving Gabe a recording of a flute+Clavinova duo, recorded
acoustically. He said, "there's something wrong with the piano."

He _didn't_ say, "that piano is fake."

There is a huge difference between those two perceptions, and I will take
"there's something wrong with the piano" any day over "that piano is fake."
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Richard Crowley]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
> There is a huge difference between those two perceptions, and I will take
> "there's something wrong with the piano" any day over "that piano is
> fake."

IIRC, that was the plot premise of a popular book and movie.