Capacitor Drains my Battery

[jimbo_limited]

There was another thread about this but my problem is slightly different.

What I have is:

90Amp Stock Alternator
Evermaxx Gold Battery (Walmart)
Power Acoustik 2 Farad Cap
Stinger 4 Gauge Power wire

When i installed it ,when i got it, It had never drain my battery. But when i had replaced my Battery terminals it had all started. When i reconnected my Capacitor to the battery(it was Discharged) it seemed perfectly fine. Cap was fully charged to 12.3v W/car off. Within 1 week if reinstallment i turned over the ignition this one morning and my battery was dead. Looked back at my cap and it was blinking 10v.

I disconnected the Capacitor's Negitive and kept it like that for 2 months and never had the problem of drainned battery.


Can anyone tell me why it does that and

How do i PROPERLY install a capacitor?(connect positive first then the Ground last or vise versa)

[Matt Ion]

jimbo_limited wrote:
> There was another thread about this but my problem is slightly
> different.
>
> What I have is:
>
> 90Amp Stock Alternator
> Evermaxx Gold Battery (Walmart)
> Power Acoustik 2 Farad Cap
> Stinger 4 Gauge Power wire

You don't mention what kind of car it is, or what amps you have, but I would
guess that your first problem is, your alternator is underpowered. Any system
that's drawing enough current to need a 2F cap is probably going to need a LOT
more than a 90A alternator can provide (depending on how much the car iteself
requires). If a 90A alt is generating enough to run your system, then you DON'T
need a cap, let alone a 2F.

> When i installed it ,when i got it, It had never drain my battery. But
> when i had replaced my Battery terminals it had all started. When i
> reconnected my Capacitor to the battery(it was Discharged) it seemed
> perfectly fine. Cap was fully charged to 12.3v W/car off. Within 1
> week if reinstallment i turned over the ignition this one morning and
> my battery was dead. Looked back at my cap and it was blinking 10v.
>
> I disconnected the Capacitor's Negitive and kept it like that for 2
> months and never had the problem of drainned battery.

Sounds like the cap may be leaking internally. This is easy to test: connect
it, charge it, then disconnect it, and watch the voltage over time. If there's
no load on the cap, its voltage shouldn't drop noticeably (it will fall over
time, but we're talking probably weeks if not months for it to be measurable on
the built-in display).

> How do i PROPERLY install a capacitor?(connect positive first then the
> Ground last or vise versa)

The order you connect it doesn't matter. What DOES matter is that you connect
some resistance in series with it when charging it. Unless it has built-in
resistance for charging, an uncharged cap will initially appear to the car as a
dead short, and could damage your alt, battery, and/or wiring. The most common
method is to connect the cap's ground, then connect any standard automotive
light bulb (like a turn signal bulb) inline with the power wire - the bulb will
go on brightly at first, then dim slowly as the cap charges. When the light goes
out, the cap is charged - you can then remove the bulb and connect the power
directly.

[Captain_Howdy]

That's not going to work. as soon as the cap is disconnected it will drain in
a minute or two.

My take on this problem is that the battery is crap and dropping voltage when
the car sits and is triggering the cap's auto discharge. Have the battery
tested and see what it has for cranking amps vs what it's rated for. Digital
caps are a little nasty when it comes to weak batteries or batteries that
don't get a full charge. If the car sits for a few weeks it's best to
disconnect your main power line fuse or replace the fuse with a circuit
breaker for an easy disconnect or replace the cap with a non digital type or a
remote triggered digital type.



In article <ij4lh.538758$R63.229741@pd7urf1no>, Matt Ion >
wrote:

>
>Sounds like the cap may be leaking internally. This is easy to test: connect
>it, charge it, then disconnect it, and watch the voltage over time. If there's
>
>no load on the cap, its voltage shouldn't drop noticeably (it will fall over
>time, but we're talking probably weeks if not months for it to be measurable on
>
>the built-in display).
>

[Matt Ion]

Captain_Howdy wrote:
> That's not going to work. as soon as the cap is disconnected it will drain in
> a minute or two.

To where???

A *good* capacitor should hold a charge almost indefinitely, unless it's got
built-in circuitry INTENDED to drain it.

[MOSFET]

Here's a possible guess at your problem. I use one of those newer fancy
caps with the LED voltage top and even some extra blue lights they added
beyond that. Whenever the voltage changes, they come on for about 10
seconds. Perhaps yours are not turning off at all. This would CERTAINLY
drain your battery after a week.

In other words, if you do have an LED voltage display, is it on when you
first go out to your car BEFORE you start it up or turn the key? If so,
that's likely your problem.

MOSFET

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:ij4lh.538758$R63.229741@pd7urf1no...
> jimbo_limited wrote:
> > There was another thread about this but my problem is slightly
> > different.
> >
> > What I have is:
> >
> > 90Amp Stock Alternator
> > Evermaxx Gold Battery (Walmart)
> > Power Acoustik 2 Farad Cap
> > Stinger 4 Gauge Power wire
>
> You don't mention what kind of car it is, or what amps you have, but I
would
> guess that your first problem is, your alternator is underpowered. Any
system
> that's drawing enough current to need a 2F cap is probably going to need a
LOT
> more than a 90A alternator can provide (depending on how much the car
iteself
> requires). If a 90A alt is generating enough to run your system, then you
DON'T
> need a cap, let alone a 2F.
>
> > When i installed it ,when i got it, It had never drain my battery. But
> > when i had replaced my Battery terminals it had all started. When i
> > reconnected my Capacitor to the battery(it was Discharged) it seemed
> > perfectly fine. Cap was fully charged to 12.3v W/car off. Within 1
> > week if reinstallment i turned over the ignition this one morning and
> > my battery was dead. Looked back at my cap and it was blinking 10v.
> >
> > I disconnected the Capacitor's Negitive and kept it like that for 2
> > months and never had the problem of drainned battery.
>
> Sounds like the cap may be leaking internally. This is easy to test:
connect
> it, charge it, then disconnect it, and watch the voltage over time. If
there's
> no load on the cap, its voltage shouldn't drop noticeably (it will fall
over
> time, but we're talking probably weeks if not months for it to be
measurable on
> the built-in display).
>
> > How do i PROPERLY install a capacitor?(connect positive first then the
> > Ground last or vise versa)
>
> The order you connect it doesn't matter. What DOES matter is that you
connect
> some resistance in series with it when charging it. Unless it has
built-in
> resistance for charging, an uncharged cap will initially appear to the car
as a
> dead short, and could damage your alt, battery, and/or wiring. The most
common
> method is to connect the cap's ground, then connect any standard
automotive
> light bulb (like a turn signal bulb) inline with the power wire - the bulb
will
> go on brightly at first, then dim slowly as the cap charges. When the
light goes
> out, the cap is charged - you can then remove the bulb and connect the
power
> directly.

[MOSFET]

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:asclh.539171$R63.25440@pd7urf1no...
> Captain_Howdy wrote:
> > That's not going to work. as soon as the cap is disconnected it will
drain in
> > a minute or two.
>
> To where???
>
Yes, to where?

I have a 1/2 farad cap sitting right next to me that I took out of a car 15
months ago. It is still reading 10.5 volts.

MOSFET

[Captain_Howdy]

Positive to negative terminal discharge via discharge resistor. Most all
digital caps have built-in circuitry intended to drain it once input power is
removed. They also have built-in circuitry intended to charge slow if the cap
has input power and a charge of less then 10 volts. This seems to be the fact
of the cap in question as stated by the poster that the cap starts flashing
it's display at 10 volts (dead give away). Almost forgot it might also have a
over-voltage protection circuit and a polarity protection circuit.

However a basic non digital cap can hold full charge up to a year without
voltage loss, so I read some where a long time ago.


In article <asclh.539171$R63.25440@pd7urf1no>, Matt Ion >
wrote:
>Captain_Howdy wrote:
>> That's not going to work. as soon as the cap is disconnected it will drain in
>
>> a minute or two.
>
>To where???
>
>A *good* capacitor should hold a charge almost indefinitely, unless it's got
>built-in circuitry INTENDED to drain it.

[Matt Ion]

Captain_Howdy wrote:
> Positive to negative terminal discharge via discharge resistor. Most all
> digital caps have built-in circuitry intended to drain it once input power is
> removed. They also have built-in circuitry intended to charge slow if the cap
> has input power and a charge of less then 10 volts. This seems to be the fact
> of the cap in question as stated by the poster that the cap starts flashing
> it's display at 10 volts (dead give away). Almost forgot it might also have a
> over-voltage protection circuit and a polarity protection circuit.

Okay, fair enough... but even a built-in discharge shouldn't be enough to drain
the battery overnight. If the battery was that far gone, it would be giving
issues even with the cap disconnected.

> However a basic non digital cap can hold full charge up to a year without
> voltage loss, so I read some where a long time ago.

Assuming no leakage, any capacitor can hold a charge indefinitely.

And just to be technically correct, there is no such thing as a "digital
capacitor". The "digital" is part of the surrounding package; the CAPACITOR
itself is the same as any other.

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message
> news:asclh.539171$R63.25440@pd7urf1no...
>
>>Captain_Howdy wrote:
>>
>>>That's not going to work. as soon as the cap is disconnected it will
>
> drain in
>
>>>a minute or two.
>>
>>To where???
>>
>
> Yes, to where?
>
> I have a 1/2 farad cap sitting right next to me that I took out of a car 15
> months ago. It is still reading 10.5 volts.

Holy crap, MOSFET lives!

[D.Kreft]

On Dec 29, 10:39 am, "MOSFET" > wrote:

> I have a 1/2 farad cap sitting right next to me that I took out of a car 15
> months ago. It is still reading 10.5 volts.

What happens if you lay your tongue across the terminals? How do you
know those are
*real* volts and not just residual or "phantom" volts?

-dan

[Captain_Howdy]

No not over night, weeks or months yeah.
>
>Okay, fair enough... but even a built-in discharge shouldn't be enough to drain
>
>the battery overnight. If the battery was that far gone, it would be giving
>issues even with the cap disconnected.
>

They do lose charge over a long time.

>
>Assuming no leakage, any capacitor can hold a charge indefinitely.
>

True the digital display is an add-on and in most cases is removable on most
round style caps . There are only two types of car audio power caps that I
have seen, The old round ones and the newer ones that sort of look like
amplifiers.

>And just to be technically correct, there is no such thing as a "digital
>capacitor". The "digital" is part of the surrounding package; the CAPACITOR
>itself is the same as any other.

[Matt Ion]

Captain_Howdy wrote:

> They do lose charge over a long time.
>
>
>>Assuming no leakage, any capacitor can hold a charge indefinitely.

Yes, because of leakage in the dielectric. Notice I said "assuming no leakage".

[Captain_Howdy]

Yeah but LOL, nothing stores power indefinitely with a one time charge,
nothing that I can think of.






In article <fJhlh.534047$5R2.493297@pd7urf3no>, Matt Ion >
wrote:
>Captain_Howdy wrote:
>
>> They do lose charge over a long time.
>>
>>
>>>Assuming no leakage, any capacitor can hold a charge indefinitely.
>
>Yes, because of leakage in the dielectric. Notice I said "assuming no
> leakage".
>

[Matt Ion]

Captain_Howdy wrote:
> Yeah but LOL, nothing stores power indefinitely with a one time charge,
> nothing that I can think of.

That's because nothing is 100% efficient, or in this case, leak-proof.

ASSUMING a capacitor could be COMPLETELY LEAK-FREE, it would hold its charge
indefinitely.


>
>
>
>
>
> In article <fJhlh.534047$5R2.493297@pd7urf3no>, Matt Ion >
> wrote:
>
>>Captain_Howdy wrote:
>>
>>
>>>They do lose charge over a long time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Assuming no leakage, any capacitor can hold a charge indefinitely.
>>
>>Yes, because of leakage in the dielectric. Notice I said "assuming no
>>leakage".
>>

[D.Kreft]

On Dec 29, 9:00 pm, Matt Ion > wrote:

> ASSUMING a capacitor could be COMPLETELY LEAK-FREE, it would hold its charge
> indefinitely.

Which is kinda like saying "Assuming that sharks don't eat meat, you're
perfectly safe swimming in a tank of hungry sharks."

These kind of statements make for nice theoretical chit-chat and might
impress your EE professors, but in the imperfect world in which we
live, sharks *do* eat meat and caps do leak, making "assuming a round
cow" statements something less than useful in trying to diagnose
problems.

-dan

[jimbo_limited]

Weill, as soneone asked this question before yall long talk, Yes my cap Voltage meter is on when i leave my car and It Does turn off after 10 seconds of no voltage change. That Morning when i entered my car, i noticed my meter on it was blinking a "10" meaning its UNDER 10volts (I know i didnt leave anything on besides my Radar. That was the first time it had ever happened. I Reinstalled it today PROPERLY with a resistor size of 1K Ohm and as of right now its working perfectly fine. I'll give updates on how it goes.

Thanks for the info/help

[MOSFET]

> Holy crap, MOSFET lives!

Yes, I'm still here. Though I felt I needed an extended break. You better
than anybody should know the reason.

When a pastime no longer becomes fun, it's time to look for other pastimes.
I found myself a little TOO involved with RAC and thought a break would be
nice. ;)

Glad to see you are still offering up EXCELLENT advice.

See ya,

Nick

[MOSFET]

"D.Kreft" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Dec 29, 10:39 am, "MOSFET" > wrote:
>
> > I have a 1/2 farad cap sitting right next to me that I took out of a
car 15
> > months ago. It is still reading 10.5 volts.
>
> What happens if you lay your tongue across the terminals? How do you
> know those are
> *real* volts and not just residual or "phantom" volts?
>
OK, I'm holding the cap with one hand and typing with the other. I'm now
slowly raising the cap to my mouth and tongue. Alright, here goes.....

AGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

OK, in all seriousness I DID take a short length of wire and shorted the
poles. There was a pretty significant spark. On my tongue, it would have
surely hurt. This somehow reminds me of a very old SNL running gag: "Don't
you just hate it when....your tongue touches the positive and negative
terminals of a fully charged capacitor?"
"Oh yah, I HATE it when that happens".

MOSFET

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
>>Holy crap, MOSFET lives!
>
>
> Yes, I'm still here. Though I felt I needed an extended break. You better
> than anybody should know the reason.
>
> When a pastime no longer becomes fun, it's time to look for other pastimes.
> I found myself a little TOO involved with RAC and thought a break would be
> nice. ;)

I dunno, I only left when it got boring.

> Glad to see you are still offering up EXCELLENT advice.

All for you, baby :)

[[email protected]]

If there is a loose or weak connection on a cap, the cap will discharge
itself. This will create a greater defference in charge from the
battery and the cap positive terminal, which in turn creates a spark
and the cap charges, then loses connection, discharges.....
wash, rinse, repeat, wash, rinse, repeat........
This will drain the battery in a number of hours.
Also, depending on the sensitivity of the cap LED readout electronics,
if your radar detector goes off, that could be enough of a voltage drop
to make the LED readout light up. This is highly unlikely to drain the
battery in a day or two, but a week of just sitting there, it could
happen.
Caps are just eye candy anyway, sell it and buy a yellow top. The
difference is amazing.

[Matt Ion]

wrote:
> If there is a loose or weak connection on a cap, the cap will discharge
> itself.

And how does it do that?

> Caps are just eye candy anyway, sell it and buy a yellow top. The
> difference is amazing.

You want a DIFFERENCE, upgrade your alternator to provide sufficient current to
begin with.

[[email protected]]

Within the last 4 or 5 years companies started making capacitors
designed to discharge themselves when removed from the vehicle for
safety reasons. (probably because people were sticking their toungues
to the posts). An older cap with no LEDs or digital readout can hold a
charge for a long time. The newer ones do not. It is not that they
can not, just that they are designed to bleed off when power is
removed.
Yes, a HO alternater is the best bet, but when you are talking about
the average car audio enthusiast, they are not going to spend $500-$600
on a 200amp alternator. A $200 battery is a more economical choice. I
have one yellow top and a stinger 200a HO alternator in my car, and no
caps. I don't believe in caps. They work only when you listen to rock
where the bass consists of bass drum thumps, and the current draw of
the amplifier is spiked occasionally (with the bass drum thump). The
pause between allows the cap to charge back up and it effectively does
its job as a buffer and stabalizes the current draw so that it dosen't
dim the headlights. Listening to low sustained notes (rap or bass CDs)
does not give the cap a chance to recharge, therefore it does not do
any good.

[Matt Ion]

wrote:

> Yes, a HO alternater is the best bet, but when you are talking about
> the average car audio enthusiast, they are not going to spend $500-$600
> on a 200amp alternator. A $200 battery is a more economical choice.

Yes, but it is typically the WRONG choice. There is only one thing in your
car's electrical system that CREATES electricity, and that's the alternator. If
it's not producing enough, the battery is not going to fix that problem. A
bigger battery will allow him to run the stereo longer with the engine off, but
it's not going to magically create more power out of thin air. If the lights
are dimming and the voltage is dropping because the alt isn't producing enough
current, all the battery is going to do is stop that drop at 12-13V, rather than
letting it fall further.

Adding a battery or a cap to "solve" your low-current voltage-dropout issues is
a band-aid at best: it's attempting to cover up the problem without actually
FIXING the problem, which is a lack of sufficient current.

[[email protected]]

This guy didn't even say what size amp he has. Stock alternators are
rated at 10% over maximum vehicle current draw, so that leaves us with
9-14 amps to spare. 14 amps x 14.4 volts = 201.6 watts. So what you
are saying is that everyone with a 200 watt amplifier or more should
buy an alternator? Are they WRONG if they don't?
I didn't say that a battery would magically create electricity, I said
a yellow top was better than a wet cell battery and a 2 farad cap. I'm
not here to steal your glory Mr. Ion, I just thought I would drop by
and respond to a few questions.
Bottom line, I agree with you..an alternator is the ultimate fix.
Informing people of that is important, but alternators are not the only
option. You can have a nice setup without having a HO alt. You just
have to understand that you are limited in the amount of current draw
and the length of time you are using that much current.

[Matt Ion]

wrote:
>
> This guy didn't even say what size amp he has. Stock alternators are
> rated at 10% over maximum vehicle current draw, so that leaves us with
> 9-14 amps to spare. 14 amps x 14.4 volts = 201.6 watts. So what you
> are saying is that everyone with a 200 watt amplifier or more should
> buy an alternator? Are they WRONG if they don't?

No, I'm saying that IF YOU HAVE A CURRENT-SUPPLY DEFICIENCY in your system, the
ONLY *FIX* for it is a more powerful alternator. A battery will not fix the
deficiency.

> I didn't say that a battery would magically create electricity, I said
> a yellow top was better than a wet cell battery and a 2 farad cap.

Better for what? A better battery will run your system longer without the
engine running. Nothing more. If the cap is draining the battery, a shiny new
$200 Yellow Top will give him more time before the battery goes dead, but it's
not going to fix his problem.

Caps are *typically* added for two reasons: someone told a n00b that it would
fix the problem with his lights dimmer, or someone told a n00b that it make his
system sound better/hit harder/whatever. Chances are good that the OP here
*does not need* a cap at all, and if he does have the symptoms that lead him to
think he needs one, it's probably an attempt to overcome a current deficiency,
which requires a better alternator, NOT a better battery.

> not here to steal your glory Mr. Ion, I just thought I would drop by
> and respond to a few questions.

Are you related to MOSFET? I don't give a **** about "my glory", only about
providing good advice. Telling the OP that a big fancy expensive battery is the
cure for his ills is not good advice. That is all.

> Bottom line, I agree with you..an alternator is the ultimate fix.
> Informing people of that is important, but alternators are not the only
> option. You can have a nice setup without having a HO alt. You just
> have to understand that you are limited in the amount of current draw
> and the length of time you are using that much current.

Upgrading your alternator and upgrading your battery are not "options" related
to each other. Each addresses a different need. If he needs a better alt, a
fancier battery is not an "option". If he does in fact need a better battery,
then putting in a jacked-up alt isn't an "option". The OP may have a failing
battery and need to replace it, but there's nothing in his post that suggests he
really needs a $200+ super-duper battery.

[Captain_Howdy]

The yellow top will take alot of load off the alternator, so the yellow top
will help to a point.



In article <G2lmh.546774$5R2.435096@pd7urf3no>, Matt Ion >
wrote:
wrote:
>>
>> This guy didn't even say what size amp he has. Stock alternators are
>> rated at 10% over maximum vehicle current draw, so that leaves us with
>> 9-14 amps to spare. 14 amps x 14.4 volts = 201.6 watts. So what you
>> are saying is that everyone with a 200 watt amplifier or more should
>> buy an alternator? Are they WRONG if they don't?
>
>No, I'm saying that IF YOU HAVE A CURRENT-SUPPLY DEFICIENCY in your system, the
>
>ONLY *FIX* for it is a more powerful alternator. A battery will not fix the
>deficiency.
>
>> I didn't say that a battery would magically create electricity, I said
>> a yellow top was better than a wet cell battery and a 2 farad cap.
>
>Better for what? A better battery will run your system longer without the
>engine running. Nothing more. If the cap is draining the battery, a shiny new
>
>$200 Yellow Top will give him more time before the battery goes dead, but it's
>not going to fix his problem.
>
>Caps are *typically* added for two reasons: someone told a n00b that it would
>fix the problem with his lights dimmer, or someone told a n00b that it make his
>
>system sound better/hit harder/whatever. Chances are good that the OP here
>*does not need* a cap at all, and if he does have the symptoms that lead him to
>
>think he needs one, it's probably an attempt to overcome a current deficiency,
>which requires a better alternator, NOT a better battery.
>
>> not here to steal your glory Mr. Ion, I just thought I would drop by
>> and respond to a few questions.
>
>Are you related to MOSFET? I don't give a **** about "my glory", only about
>providing good advice. Telling the OP that a big fancy expensive battery is
> the
>cure for his ills is not good advice. That is all.
>
>> Bottom line, I agree with you..an alternator is the ultimate fix.
>> Informing people of that is important, but alternators are not the only
>> option. You can have a nice setup without having a HO alt. You just
>> have to understand that you are limited in the amount of current draw
>> and the length of time you are using that much current.
>
>Upgrading your alternator and upgrading your battery are not "options" related
>to each other. Each addresses a different need. If he needs a better alt, a
>fancier battery is not an "option". If he does in fact need a better battery,
>then putting in a jacked-up alt isn't an "option". The OP may have a failing
>battery and need to replace it, but there's nothing in his post that suggests
> he
>really needs a $200+ super-duper battery.
>
>

[[email protected]]

Matt Ion wrote:
> wrote:
> >
> > This guy didn't even say what size amp he has. Stock alternators are
> > rated at 10% over maximum vehicle current draw, so that leaves us with
> > 9-14 amps to spare. 14 amps x 14.4 volts = 201.6 watts. So what you
> > are saying is that everyone with a 200 watt amplifier or more should
> > buy an alternator? Are they WRONG if they don't?
>
> No, I'm saying that IF YOU HAVE A CURRENT-SUPPLY DEFICIENCY in your system, the
> ONLY *FIX* for it is a more powerful alternator. A battery will not fix the
> deficiency.

That is what I said. If you define a current-supply deficiency as
using more than the alternator will produce, a 200watt amplifier will
produce a current supply deficiency, and in your words, the ONLY *FIX*
is a more powerful alternator. But you are wrong. A better battery
will supply the stereo system with the current required for significant
amounts of time, especially when the engine is running. You just have
to turn it off occasionally to let the alternator charge it back up.
Most batteries have a CCA rating of around 400 amps, so if the
alternator is running at its prime of 90, and the car is using 50, you
have 40 amps for the system and the battery can easily make up another
60-80 amps if needed, up to 400 on a spike. You just can't run it all
the time.
It is not as cut and dry as you think. It's not as simple as
alternator OR battery. It is knowing how to use what you have / what
you can afford.


> > I didn't say that a battery would magically create electricity, I said
> > a yellow top was better than a wet cell battery and a 2 farad cap.
>
> Better for what? A better battery will run your system longer without the
> engine running. Nothing more. If the cap is draining the battery, a shiny new
> $200 Yellow Top will give him more time before the battery goes dead, but it's
> not going to fix his problem.

your answer to this question is in the quote right above it. A Yellow
top IS BETTER THAN a wet cell and a 2 farad cap....
If you only have a yellow top, and not a cap, how can the cap drain the
yellow top?


> Are you related to MOSFET? I don't give a **** about "my glory", only about
> providing good advice. Telling the OP that a big fancy expensive battery is the
> cure for his ills is not good advice. That is all.

Telling someone a big fancy $600 alternator is the cure, is that good
advice?
Especially when the $200 battery will help?

> Upgrading your alternator and upgrading your battery are not "options" related
> to each other. Each addresses a different need. If he needs a better alt, a
> fancier battery is not an "option". If he does in fact need a better battery,
> then putting in a jacked-up alt isn't an "option". The OP may have a failing
> battery and need to replace it, but there's nothing in his post that suggests he
> really needs a $200+ super-duper battery.

In the case where the battery is bad, which is all I wanted to suggest
in the first place, replacing it with a battery that has a faster
discharge rate, a higher capacity, a deeper charge cycle, and can be
run completely down 100 times more than a wet cell, IS IN FACT a better
option.

[Matt Ion]

Captain_Howdy wrote:
> The yellow top will take alot of load off the alternator, so the yellow top
> will help to a point.

How does a battery "take the load off" the alternator? ANY energy drained from
the battery eventually needs to be replenished, and that comes from the alternator.

[[email protected]]

> How does a battery "take the load off" the alternator? ANY energy drained from
> the battery eventually needs to be replenished, and that comes from the alternator.

True. What a yellow top battery does is spread out the alternator
cycles.
The alternator does not run all of the time, if it did, I could see
your point. The vehicle runs off the battery until the battery starts
to show a voltage drop, then the voltage regulator tells the alternator
to come on. And even then, the alternator is not wide open. The
regulator works like a transistor, telling the alternator how much
voltage is needed when running. If a higher capacity battery is used,
the alternator does not have to work as much unless it is under a
severe load. Given time to recharge the battery (removing the load
from time to time) the alternator can go longer periods in idle mode.
Also, a deeper cycle battery can absorb larger spikes in demand and
buffer them from the regulator so the alternator does not see an
'instant on' signal. This reduces the number of unnecessary cycles as
well. My personal favorite trait of a dry cell battery is that if it
goes dead, it will recharge. Wet cell batteries won't live after 3 or
4 complete dishcarges. Dry cells will actually recharge themselves
enough to crank the vehicle after a complete discharge, plus you can do
this 100 or so times before any damage is done to the battery.
This is how I explain the vehicle charging system to my customers:
The alternator is like your job.. The output of the alternator is how
much money you make.
The battery or batteries are your bank account, and the amplifiers are
your wife/girlfriend's spending habits.
If you have a bigger bank account, you don't have to worry too much
about how much money is in the bank all the time. If you live paycheck
to paycheck, you have to work overtime trying to keep up with their
shopping sprees. If you have money in the bank and only make minimum
wage, you can still save up and let her buy something nice every once
in awhile. This is a loose comparison, but it works to explain how
everything goes hand in hand.

[Captain_Howdy]

The optima's charge alot faster then lead/acid batteries they also don't drop
voltage as fast as lead/acid batteries. Freeing your alternator to do other
things then charging your battery.


In article <jQrmh.542685$1T2.215278@pd7urf2no>, Matt Ion >
wrote:
>Captain_Howdy wrote:
>> The yellow top will take alot of load off the alternator, so the yellow top
>> will help to a point.
>
>How does a battery "take the load off" the alternator? ANY energy drained from
>
>the battery eventually needs to be replenished, and that comes from the
> alternator.

[Matt Ion]

Captain_Howdy wrote:
> The optima's charge alot faster then lead/acid batteries they also don't drop
> voltage as fast as lead/acid batteries. Freeing your alternator to do other
> things then charging your battery.

A battery that charges faster requires more current. Either way, it requires
the same amount of energy. I still don't see how that "takes the load off" the
alternator. Either it's more current for a short amount of time, or less
current for a longer amount of time; either way, it's the same ENERGY
requirement, and the same total LOAD.

> In article <jQrmh.542685$1T2.215278@pd7urf2no>, Matt Ion >
> wrote:
>
>>Captain_Howdy wrote:
>>
>>>The yellow top will take alot of load off the alternator, so the yellow top
>>>will help to a point.
>>
>>How does a battery "take the load off" the alternator? ANY energy drained from
>>
>>the battery eventually needs to be replenished, and that comes from the
>>alternator.

[Matt Ion]

wrote:
>>How does a battery "take the load off" the alternator? ANY energy drained from
>>the battery eventually needs to be replenished, and that comes from the alternator.
>
>
> True. What a yellow top battery does is spread out the alternator
> cycles.
> The alternator does not run all of the time, if it did, I could see
> your point. The vehicle runs off the battery until the battery starts
> to show a voltage drop, then the voltage regulator tells the alternator
> to come on.

A vehicle never runs off the battery. The alternator is DESIGNED to provide
power for all the vehicle's systems, including ignition. The only thing the
battery is NEEDED for is cranking the starter. Yes, it does perform other
functions, but none of them are NECESSARY.

> The alternator is like your job.. The output of the alternator is how
> much money you make.
> The battery or batteries are your bank account, and the amplifiers are
> your wife/girlfriend's spending habits.
> If you have a bigger bank account, you don't have to worry too much
> about how much money is in the bank all the time. If you live paycheck
> to paycheck, you have to work overtime trying to keep up with their
> shopping sprees. If you have money in the bank and only make minimum
> wage, you can still save up and let her buy something nice every once
> in awhile. This is a loose comparison, but it works to explain how
> everything goes hand in hand.

In the end, all the money still comes from the same place, it still costs you
the same amount of money, and you still have to do the same amount of work. And
in keeping with your analogy, in the end, regardless of what type of battery you
have, IT STILL REQUIRES THE SAME TOTAL ENERGY, and ALL of that has to come from
the alternator.

[GregS]

In article om>, wrote:
>
>
>This guy didn't even say what size amp he has. Stock alternators are
>rated at 10% over maximum vehicle current draw, so that leaves us with
>9-14 amps to spare. 14 amps x 14.4 volts = 201.6 watts. So what you
>are saying is that everyone with a 200 watt amplifier or more should
>buy an alternator? Are they WRONG if they don't?
>I didn't say that a battery would magically create electricity, I said
>a yellow top was better than a wet cell battery and a 2 farad cap. I'm
>not here to steal your glory Mr. Ion, I just thought I would drop by
>and respond to a few questions.
>Bottom line, I agree with you..an alternator is the ultimate fix.

If your idling, a cap has a tremendous advantage. A bigger alternator
is not going to make much difference, unless its
on a variable diameter shaft to control its RPM and maintain a high
charge capability. Unless the alternator and battery are next
to the amp, the cap will win at providing peak power capibility.


greg

>Informing people of that is important, but alternators are not the only
>option. You can have a nice setup without having a HO alt. You just
>have to understand that you are limited in the amount of current draw
>and the length of time you are using that much current.
>

[Captain_Howdy]

Yes if you are comparing lead acid batteries., but these two types of
batteries are far from an equal comparison. The technology is totally
different between the two. I personally don't know enough about the inner
workings of "SPIRALCELL" batteries to tell you why they charge faster at the
same current then acid batteries, but they do.



In article <0rwmh.553254$R63.334777@pd7urf1no>, Matt Ion >


>A battery that charges faster requires more current. Either way, it requires
>the same amount of energy. I still don't see how that "takes the load off" the
>
>alternator. Either it's more current for a short amount of time, or less
>current for a longer amount of time; either way, it's the same ENERGY
>requirement, and the same total LOAD.
>

[[email protected]]

GregS wrote:

> If your idling, a cap has a tremendous advantage. A bigger alternator
> is not going to make much difference, unless its
> on a variable diameter shaft to control its RPM and maintain a high
> charge capability. Unless the alternator and battery are next
> to the amp, the cap will win at providing peak power capibility.

In this situation the cap will win for one bass note, then it is
discharged, and now creates more stress by trying to recharge itself.
A higher output alternator would work here because the output of a HO
alt is higher than a standard alt. at idle RPM. Capacitors were first
used in competition car audio for that one note. It became a fad, and
now everyone uses them.

"The power cap, usually 1 or 2 farads, is connected in parallel
between the battery and the amplifier. Multiple capacitors can be
connected with busbars to reduce resistance and power loss. The
capacitors are quite large and are often decorated with graphics or
enclosed in an attractive housing, sometimes with readouts to monitor
the capacitor's voltage.
It can only hold a small charge, so a single bass hit can empty it
completely. It charges back up when there isn't a large power demand.
This makes it inappropriate for systems that will require prolonged
delivery of power, as the capacitor cannot supply additional power,
only store it temporarily."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiffening_capacitor


Facts about a standard car battery:

"A lead-acid battery has an efficiency of only 75-85%. The energy lost
appears as heat and warms the battery. Keeping the charge and discharge
rate of a battery low, helps keep a battery cool and improves the
battery life.
The above losses don't include losses in the charging circuit which may
have an efficiency of anywhere from 60% to 80% - thus the overall-
total efficiency is the product of these efficiencies and ends up being
45 to 68%."
- http://xtronics.com/reference/batterap.htm


and to back up Capt. Howdy:

"9. Will a high output alternator damage an OPTIMA battery?
No, not as long as the voltage is properly regulated. OPTIMA's
exceptionally low internal resistance means it will accept higher
current more efficiently than conventional batteries."
- http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/faq.asp#2

I was wrong about an alternator not running all the time, and I
apologize to Matt Ion:
"Charging System Basics:

As long as the engine is running, all of the power for the accessories
is delivered by the alternator. The battery is actually a load on the
charging system. The only time that the battery would supply power with
the engine running is when the current capacity of the alternator is
exceeded or when engine is at a very low idle. " -
http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm

In my experience as an installer, I have found that most people that
have voltage issues even with caps are running too small of a power
wire in the first place. The voltage drop from an undersized wire in
turn creates an amperage spike and causes the lights to dim. I have
proven this to several customers by increasing the wire size and
showing them better results than capacitors. I think capacitors have
their place in car audio. In SPL competitions where engine RPM over
2,000 can disqualify you, and with people that listen to country and
rock mostly, where the cap has a chance to recharge before the next
beat. I don't think everyone needs one, I think that everyone thinks
they need one, and that is why they sell so well, but I believe it is
almost a scam.

[Matt Ion]

Captain_Howdy wrote:
> Yes if you are comparing lead acid batteries., but these two types of
> batteries are far from an equal comparison. The technology is totally
> different between the two. I personally don't know enough about the inner
> workings of "SPIRALCELL" batteries to tell you why they charge faster at the
> same current then acid batteries, but they do.

Thermodynamics states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. I don't
care how "special" the inner workings are, the more energy you want to store in
the battery, the more you have to provide it. Power is a pretty simple
equation, P=IV, power = current times voltage. The more power you want to store
in the battery, the more voltage or the more current you have to give it.
Voltage is more-or-less a constant here, so the variable is current. You want
more power, you need more current. Charging in less time requires more current.
Basic 11th-grade physics.

> In article <0rwmh.553254$R63.334777@pd7urf1no>, Matt Ion >
>
>
>
>>A battery that charges faster requires more current. Either way, it requires
>>the same amount of energy. I still don't see how that "takes the load off" the
>>
>>alternator. Either it's more current for a short amount of time, or less
>>current for a longer amount of time; either way, it's the same ENERGY
>>requirement, and the same total LOAD.
>>
>
>

[Captain_Howdy]

If you take C=RS=L^/799999999.98 you will see that resistance and leakage
plays a major factor in how fast a given battery will charge with equal
current.It really simple optmatics. With that said, a discharged capacitor
should charge much longer then a discharged battery given that it will output
more current at the same voltage as a battery.
>
>Thermodynamics states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. I
> don't
>care how "special" the inner workings are, the more energy you want to store in
>
>the battery, the more you have to provide it. Power is a pretty simple
>equation, P=IV, power = current times voltage. The more power you want to
> store
>in the battery, the more voltage or the more current you have to give it.
>Voltage is more-or-less a constant here, so the variable is current. You want
>more power, you need more current. Charging in less time requires more
> current.
>Basic 11th-grade physics.
>
>> In article <0rwmh.553254$R63.334777@pd7urf1no>, Matt Ion
> >
>>
>>
>>
>>>A battery that charges faster requires more current. Either way, it requires
>
>>>the same amount of energy. I still don't see how that "takes the load off"
> the
>>>
>>>alternator. Either it's more current for a short amount of time, or less
>>>current for a longer amount of time; either way, it's the same ENERGY
>>>requirement, and the same total LOAD.
>>>
>>
>>

[GregS]

In article . com>, wrote:
>
>GregS wrote:
>
>> If your idling, a cap has a tremendous advantage. A bigger alternator
>> is not going to make much difference, unless its
>> on a variable diameter shaft to control its RPM and maintain a high
>> charge capability. Unless the alternator and battery are next
>> to the amp, the cap will win at providing peak power capibility.
>
>In this situation the cap will win for one bass note, then it is
>discharged, and now creates more stress by trying to recharge itself.
>A higher output alternator would work here because the output of a HO
>alt is higher than a standard alt. at idle RPM. Capacitors were first
>used in competition car audio for that one note. It became a fad, and
>now everyone uses them.

An bigger alternator will have a greater output at idle, but its useless
when your trying to put out any major power. One mentioned a major fact in
caps, alternators and batteries. The battery will not output
any major power until the voltage drops to near 12 volts. The cap
will be the most important piece at this time.
Lower capacitance caps usually have lower ESR, so multiple small
caps will be better than a big one. bussing is not the best method
unless you form a star patteren around the amplifier input.
If the manufacturer of the cap does not quote ESR, then the capacitance
has little meaning.

greg


> "The power cap, usually 1 or 2 farads, is connected in parallel
>between the battery and the amplifier. Multiple capacitors can be
>connected with busbars to reduce resistance and power loss. The
>capacitors are quite large and are often decorated with graphics or
>enclosed in an attractive housing, sometimes with readouts to monitor
>the capacitor's voltage.
>It can only hold a small charge, so a single bass hit can empty it
>completely. It charges back up when there isn't a large power demand.
>This makes it inappropriate for systems that will require prolonged
>delivery of power, as the capacitor cannot supply additional power,
>only store it temporarily."
> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiffening_capacitor
>
>
>Facts about a standard car battery:
>
>"A lead-acid battery has an efficiency of only 75-85%. The energy lost
>appears as heat and warms the battery. Keeping the charge and discharge
>rate of a battery low, helps keep a battery cool and improves the
>battery life.
>The above losses don't include losses in the charging circuit which may
>have an efficiency of anywhere from 60% to 80% - thus the overall-
>total efficiency is the product of these efficiencies and ends up being
>45 to 68%."
> - http://xtronics.com/reference/batterap.htm
>
>
>and to back up Capt. Howdy:
>
>"9. Will a high output alternator damage an OPTIMA battery?
>No, not as long as the voltage is properly regulated. OPTIMA's
>exceptionally low internal resistance means it will accept higher
>current more efficiently than conventional batteries."
> - http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/faq.asp#2
>
>I was wrong about an alternator not running all the time, and I
>apologize to Matt Ion:
>"Charging System Basics:
>
>As long as the engine is running, all of the power for the accessories
>is delivered by the alternator. The battery is actually a load on the
>charging system. The only time that the battery would supply power with
>the engine running is when the current capacity of the alternator is
>exceeded or when engine is at a very low idle. " -
>http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm
>
>In my experience as an installer, I have found that most people that
>have voltage issues even with caps are running too small of a power
>wire in the first place. The voltage drop from an undersized wire in
>turn creates an amperage spike and causes the lights to dim. I have
>proven this to several customers by increasing the wire size and
>showing them better results than capacitors. I think capacitors have
>their place in car audio. In SPL competitions where engine RPM over
>2,000 can disqualify you, and with people that listen to country and
>rock mostly, where the cap has a chance to recharge before the next
>beat. I don't think everyone needs one, I think that everyone thinks
>they need one, and that is why they sell so well, but I believe it is
>almost a scam.
>