Re: Numerous Newbie-type Q's

[Dr. Death]

"The Enquirer" > wrote in message
. ..
> Dumb Q's follow...if you're "sensitive", please disregard and go to
> another post...
>
> I'm looking to upgrade the speakers in my (don't laugh) Buick LeSabre.
> I've installed a nice Eclipse head unit, Kenwood 35w 4 channel amp
> and Kenwood 8" 100w sub.
>
> I'm looking to start with the rear 6X9's and get to the front soon.
> I've read quite a few posts and am more confused than ever.
>
> First, I mostly listen to Jazz and occasional rock, and have no need
> for the "ultimate" system, so I think I'm looking for a pair of
> speakers for <$200. The Infiniti Kappas look like they'll fill the
> bill nicely, but are they necessary? I've listened to speakers at
> different outlets around town, but truthfully, it's hard to compare
> the offering from various stores - I can't really remember the quality
> of the sound from one place to the next!
Kappas sound sweet, you cant go wrong there, I'm running the 693.5s and even
my wife says her music (whatever the heck she listens to) sounds fantastic,
> I've read posts that say tweeters in the rear are unnecessary...is
> this true? I've also read several posts that talk about replacing the
> 6x9s with 6.5 round with components using adapter plates - are there
> compelling arguments for doing this?
You want the tweeters in front, preferably pointing at ear level. Stick with
the 6x9 kappas.
> If I buy something from one of the vendors on eBay, are there some
> things to watch our for? These speakers look like they're available
> for ~$140 with shipping, but any dealers to avoid?
allways check their feedback and how long they have been doing buisness with
ebay. Also pay by paypal for buyer protection. I've bought my kappa 60.5 cs
and 693.5s from ebay vendors and am quite happy.
> Appreciate any help...I didn't realize I was going to spend so much
> time turning this into a science project!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Morris

[Eddie Runner]

The Enquirer wrote:

> First, I mostly listen to Jazz and occasional rock, and have no need
> for the "ultimate" system, so I think I'm looking for a pair of
> speakers for <$200. The Infiniti Kappas look like they'll fill the
> bill nicely, but are they necessary?

Something is necessary, its up to you to choose...

> I've listened to speakers at
> different outlets around town, but truthfully, it's hard to compare
> the offering from various stores - I can't really remember the quality
> of the sound from one place to the next!

Your right, it is hard to remember sounds for any amount of time, plus
the places where you listen to music (showrooms) have different sound
characteristics just as two different cars have different sound
characteristics..

You can only see if a speaker sounds good to you in general terms, its
hard to compare small differences unless BOTH speakers you are comparing
are on the same sound board (same store)...

> I've read posts that say tweeters in the rear are unnecessary...is
> this true?

Alot of folks that think they know everything seem to think tweets
are a SIN if you put em in the rear... But ask folks what they like
while actually listening to tweets in the rear and they ALWAYS
choose the good sound not only from the from but from the rear
as well....

Do what sounds best to you and to HELL with the know it alls!

> I've also read several posts that talk about replacing the
> 6x9s with 6.5 round with components using adapter plates - are there
> compelling arguments for doing this?

Generally for most folks the 6x9s sound better... They have better bass
by far then the 6.5s and an over all more powerfull sound (generally)..
Making an adapter plate and STEPPING DOWN in size seems crazy
to me, but it is done sometimes... Im systems where you have seperate
woofers the extra bass from the 6x9s isnt all that important, so you could

use the 6.5s of your choice...

> If I buy something from one of the vendors on eBay, are there some
> things to watch our for?

Crooks.!

> These speakers look like they're available
> for ~$140 with shipping, but any dealers to avoid?

Read their feedback before you bid.


Goo d Luck
Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/

[Steve B.]

On 29 Jul 2004 21:09:43 -0700, (The Enquirer)
wrote:

>Dumb Q's follow...if you're "sensitive", please disregard and go to
>another post...
>
>I'm looking to upgrade the speakers in my (don't laugh) Buick LeSabre.
> I've installed a nice Eclipse head unit, Kenwood 35w 4 channel amp
>and Kenwood 8" 100w sub.
>

I have a similar vehicle and installed a set of Alpine SPS-690A 6x9
speakers in the back and I love them. I'm sure they aren't the best
things available but they sure sound a lot better than the factory
ones did.

I don't know why but mobile electronics seem to attract the scum of
the earth dealers... If you go the ebay route make sure you check the
feedback and make sure what you are getting is factory new and what
you want. Once you buy them they are yours and can't normally be
returned (even if the vendor allows returns you still have to pay
shipping both ways).

Steve B.

[smgreen1820]

The rear tweet deal, is, it's mostly for rear passangers only. It tends
to ruin your front soundstage. Being a Jazz listener, it would be
recamended to steer clear of haveing tweets in the rear. If you have
6x9s, I would cut the tweet wires to have a "bass/midbass" responce
only out of them.
Make sure that they offer a FACTORY warranty, not theres. I've read a
lot of stories conserning this. If your front stage is set up
correctly, you wont need rear fill. Ask if you have other Qs, which I'm
sure you will. I don't think that I answered everything to your
understanding.


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[Les]

"smgreen1820" > wrote in message
...
>
> The rear tweet deal, is, it's mostly for rear passangers only. It tends
> to ruin your front soundstage. Being a Jazz listener, it would be
> recamended to steer clear of haveing tweets in the rear.

Why? When you listen to jazz in the club does the sound come only from the
front?

If you have
> 6x9s, I would cut the tweet wires to have a "bass/midbass" responce
> only out of them.

So you would ruin a perfectly usuable set of speakers? For what purpose?


> Make sure that they offer a FACTORY warranty, not theres. I've read a
> lot of stories conserning this. If your front stage is set up
> correctly, you wont need rear fill.

How do you expect the people in the back seat to hear? I guess they are only
supposed to hear bass and mud and lose intelegibility. And then ofcourse
sound never comes from behind you in a live situation. That's just
ridiculous.

Ask if you have other Qs, which I'm
> sure you will. I don't think that I answered everything to your
> understanding.

Probably not. I don't think you even answered everything to your own
understanding. More or less just spouted back about the fad of the decade
from some tired old car audio magazine that caters to 16 year old kids who
do not know any better.

Bottom line. SQ is subjective. If you, the listener, like it with rears then
by all means put them in there. If you like the front stage only (which is
not at all realistic most of the time) then go for it. Just remember that
the passengers in the back seat would probably like to hear something more
than Thud thud thud......... I know I would.

Les

[smgreen1820]

Soud as from a concert, _does_not_ come from behind, what you hear that
sounds like it's coming from behind are the reverberations of the sound
emited from what's in front. It's reflecting on the hard objects,
surfaces, that are all around you. If you want people in the back to
hear the mids with the highs,that's fine. It's a matter of personal
preferance. It's just from a soundstage point of view that you'll want
to take out the highs from the rear. I have a clarion DSP (DPH9300)
that simulates sound from a live house disco, jazz, park, as well as
MANY others. It also has time alignment built in. I can adjust time
delay, room size, reverberation, as well as others. I am mostly into
SQ, so I have no rearfill. I have 3 kids, and w/them in the truck, they
don't need to listen to the music, they play with each other. You can
go to -ANY- respectable caraudio store and they will tell you the same,
conserning the rear fill theory. Go to a sound off comp. like IASCA/i
to see how many SQ cars have rear fill, @ 10% if you're lucky. I,ve
been in this busness for over 10 years, I've benn subscribed to CA&E
for the past 7 years and am still currently sunscibed. If I don't know
something or what I'm talking about, I DO NOT MAKE POSTS. Why "spout"
about something I've no clue about.


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[Les]

"smgreen1820" > wrote in message
...
>
> Soud as from a concert, _does_not_ come from behind, what you hear that
> sounds like it's coming from behind are the reverberations of the sound
> emited from what's in front.

So it still comes from behind! I know. I mix live shows every week and do
system designs. I am well versed in reflected vs direct sound.

It's reflecting on the hard objects,
> surfaces, that are all around you.

Yep. Which is generally harder to acheive given the nature of a car and the
placement of speakers. Unless ofcourse yours are in the windshield. So you
lack the reflections that would generally give a 360deg sound stage.

If you want people in the back to
> hear the mids with the highs,that's fine. It's a matter of personal
> preferance.

Exactly. So if the guy likes the rearfill then who are you to tell him he is
wrong?

It's just from a soundstage point of view that you'll want
> to take out the highs from the rear.

Says who? I do not seem to recall the no rear fill thing being hugely
popular say ten years ago. Did SQ change?

I have a clarion DSP (DPH9300)
> that simulates sound from a live house disco, jazz, park, as well as
> MANY others.

If only it were that simple.

It also has time alignment built in. I can adjust time
> delay, room size, reverberation, as well as others. I am mostly into
> SQ, so I have no rearfill.

So SQ and no rearfill are directly related? Says who? You like SQ and that
is great. You also happen to not like rear fill and that's great too. But
don't proceed to imply that you cannot have SQ if you have rear fill.


I have 3 kids, and w/them in the truck, they
> don't need to listen to the music, they play with each other.

Not yet. What do you do when you have friends riding with you that want to
enjoy the music as well? I guess you just have to tell them sorry, I don't
like rear fill so all you get to listen to is mud and bass.

You can
> go to -ANY- respectable caraudio store and they will tell you the same,
> conserning the rear fill theory.

I can also go to quite a few reputable shops that will tell me that clipping
blows speakers, should I believe that too? Alot of reputable car shops swear
by one or two brands of subs and none are as good. So I guess I should
believe them because they are reputable?

A reputable car shop will give the customer what they are looking for and
what makes them happy. If that is rear fill then the shop should give them
rear fill. Of course there are limits to everything, but generally I would
consider a shop reputable if the give the customer what they want and if
they stand behind their work.

Go to a sound off comp. like IASCA/i
> to see how many SQ cars have rear fill, @ 10% if you're lucky.

So? The SQ judging has become a joke in my opinion anyway. But let the
judges sit in the back and see what they say about those SQ cars then.

I,ve
> been in this busness for over 10 years,

Good for you, so you should remember the time before no rear fill became
popular?

I've benn subscribed to CA&E
> for the past 7 years and am still currently sunscibed.

And probably believe everything you read there as well.

If I don't know
> something or what I'm talking about, I DO NOT MAKE POSTS.
Why "spout"
> about something I've no clue about.
>

I don't know, why did you? You are merely spouting back what all the
magazines are saying. Bottom line. If it sounds good to the listener then do
it. SQ is subjective and you nor I can tell this OP what is going to sound
good to him, so why try? You can tell him what your personal preference is
and why, but the implications that rear fill and SQ are unrelated is
asinine. You tell the guy to purposefully disable a perfectly working set of
drivers! For no good reason. You tell him that if the front stage is set up
correctly you don't need rear fill! Which is untrue if you want anyone but
the 2 front passengers to hear anything but bass and mud. Do what you want,
but don't pretend it is right and true for everybody.

Les
PS: This is a newsgroup. This is NOT a part of CAF. The webmaster Lee puts a
portal to RAC through his site, and he has done an extremely poor job at it.
So it is important that you QUOTE what you are replying too. That way
everyone accessing the newsgroup the way it is supposed to be accessed knows
who and what you are replying too.

[Eddie Runner]

smgreen1820 wrote:

> You can
> go to -ANY- respectable caraudio store and they will tell you the same,
> conserning the rear fill theory. Go to a sound off comp. like IASCA/i
> to see how many SQ cars have rear fill, @ 10% if you're lucky.

BUT, MOST folks still like sound coming from the rear in a car from
the rear as well as from the front.... Build a car with sound in the rear
and switch it ON and OFF.... No matter how good your front stage
and front imaging is, MOST folks will prefer sound from the rear as
well.

> I,ve
> been in this busness for over 10 years,

Well I been doing it for 30 years. whoopdie dooo...

> I've benn subscribed to CA&E
> for the past 7 years and am still currently sunscibed.

Sorry to hear that! Do you actually believe everything
printed there or do you know how to actually think for yourself?

> If I don't know
> something or what I'm talking about, I DO NOT MAKE POSTS.

then why are we here?

> Why "spout"
> about something I've no clue about.

You tell me.... ;-)

>
>
> --
> smgreen1820
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[smgreen1820]

Les Wrote:
> "smgreen1820" > wrote in
> message
> ...
> >>> OK, I just want to start off saying that will everyone quite
> twisting the hell out of what someone else has to say. Not only myself
> but others as well, IT ****ES ME OFF!
> >
> > Sound as from a concert, _does_not_ come from behind, what you hear
> that
> > sounds like it's coming from behind are the reverberations of the
> sound
> > emited from what's in front.
>
> So it still comes from behind! I know. I mix live shows every week and
> do
> system designs. I am well versed in reflected vs direct sound.
> >>>Let me say that this is from a stereo recorded lp from a studio, as
> far as no rear fill, there's hardly any there, @3%.
> It's reflecting on the hard objects,
> > surfaces, that are all around you.
>
> Yep. Which is generally harder to acheive given the nature of a car and
> the
> placement of speakers. Unless ofcourse yours are in the windshield. So
> you
> lack the reflections that would generally give a 360deg sound stage.
>
> If you want people in the back to
> > hear the mids with the highs,that's fine. It's a matter of personal
> > preferance.
>
> Exactly. So if the guy likes the rearfill then who are you to tell him
> he is
> wrong?
>
> >>> Where exactly did I tell him that he can not have it? I didn't!
>
> It's just from a soundstage point of view that you'll want
> > to take out the highs from the rear.
>
> Says who? I do not seem to recall the no rear fill thing being hugely
> popular say ten years ago. Did SQ change?
>
> >>> Guess you need to pay more attention then. In the last few years
> the rear fill w/SQ has faded out.
>
> I have a clarion DSP (DPH9300)
> > that simulates sound from a live house disco, jazz, park, as well as
> > MANY others.
>
> If only it were that simple.
>
> >>>clarion did an excalent job, when I had rear fill for the purpose of
> a movie or mostly for the DSP use only.
>
> It also has time alignment built in. I can adjust time
> > delay, room size, reverberation, as well as others. I am mostly into
> > SQ, so I have no rearfill.
>
> So SQ and no rearfill are directly related? Says who? You like SQ and
> that
> is great. You also happen to not like rear fill and that's great too.
> But
> don't proceed to imply that you cannot have SQ if you have rear fill.
>
> >>> Where did I say that they where related? AGAIN, I DIDN'T!
>
> I have 3 kids, and w/them in the truck, they
> > don't need to listen to the music, they play with each other.
>
> Not yet. What do you do when you have friends riding with you that want
> to
> enjoy the music as well? I guess you just have to tell them sorry, I
> don't
> like rear fill so all you get to listen to is mud and bass.
>
> >>> My front stage is very strong, My friends are into Car audio as
> well, so they understand, besides, I'd rather talk to my friends while
> I'm with them instead of listen to music real loud, and just wait
> untill we get to where we're going to talk to them. What kind of friend
> is that? My lower end is clean as well as my front, there's no "mud"
> sound.
>
> You can
> > go to -ANY- respectable caraudio store and they will tell you the
> same,
> > conserning the rear fill theory.
>
> I can also go to quite a few reputable shops that will tell me that
> clipping
> blows speakers, should I believe that too? Alot of reputable car shops
> swear
> by one or two brands of subs and none are as good. So I guess I should
> believe them because they are reputable?
>
> >>> you've got me there, it is hard to find a reputable store.
>
> A reputable car shop will give the customer what they are looking for
> and
> what makes them happy. If that is rear fill then the shop should give
> them
> rear fill. Of course there are limits to everything, but generally I
> would
> consider a shop reputable if the give the customer what they want and
> if
> they stand behind their work.
>
> Go to a sound off comp. like IASCA/i
> > to see how many SQ cars have rear fill, @ 10% if you're lucky.
>
> So? The SQ judging has become a joke in my opinion anyway. But let
> the
> judges sit in the back and see what they say about those SQ cars then.
>
> >>> WHo drives there car from the back seat? It's based on the front
> two seats, not the back two.
>
> I,ve
> > been in this busness for over 10 years,
>
> Good for you, so you should remember the time before no rear fill
> became
> popular?
>
> >>> I had rear fill at one point, yes!, but I went for SQ after that.
>
> I've benn subscribed to CA&E
> > for the past 7 years and am still currently sunscibed.
>
> And probably believe everything you read there as well.
>
> >>> not everything, you can't!
>
>
> If I don't know
> > something or what I'm talking about, I DO NOT MAKE POSTS.
> Why "spout"
> > about something I've no clue about.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't know, why did you? You are merely spouting back what all the
> magazines are saying. Bottom line. If it sounds good to the listener
> then do
> it. SQ is subjective and you nor I can tell this OP what is going to
> sound
> good to him, so why try? You can tell him what your personal preference
> is
> and why, but the implications that rear fill and SQ are unrelated is
> asinine. You tell the guy to purposefully disable a perfectly working
> set of
> drivers! For no good reason. You tell him that if the front stage is
> set up
> correctly you don't need rear fill! Which is untrue if you want anyone
> but
> the 2 front passengers to hear anything but bass and mud. Do what you
> want,
> but don't pretend it is right and true for everybody.
>
> >>> This is getting old, AGAIN! I DID NOT TELL HIM THAT THAT'S WHAT
> WILL SOUND GOOD! That, is what MOST people belive, myself included. It
> seems as if you're telling me that I don't know what sounds good. Isn't
> that your opinion? On how things sound to you , myself, or anyone else
> IS a personal opinion. You're right. When again did I say that this or
> that is right or wrong. It's people like you that twist others words
> around. If I or someone forgets to mention that this is there personal
> pref, excuse them, don't rip them a new a$$hole
>
>
> Les
> PS: This is a newsgroup. This is NOT a part of CAF. The webmaster Lee
> puts a
> portal to RAC through his site, and he has done an extremely poor job
> at it.
> So it is important that you QUOTE what you are replying too. That way
> everyone accessing the newsgroup the way it is supposed to be accessed
> knows
> who and what you are replying too.



>>>Hope I did this right.


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1

[Les]

"smgreen1820" <smgreen1820.1arx5z@no-

>>>Let me say that this is from a stereo recorded lp from a studio, as
> > far as no rear fill, there's hardly any there, @3%.
> > It's reflecting on the hard objects,
> > > surfaces, that are all around you.

Like I said before. It is not easily acheived in a car.

> > If you want people in the back to
> > > hear the mids with the highs,that's fine. It's a matter of personal
> > > preferance.

> > Exactly. So if the guy likes the rearfill then who are you to tell him
> > he is
> > wrong?
> >
> > >>> Where exactly did I tell him that he can not have it? I didn't!

You said, "If your front stage is set up correctly, you wont need rear
fill." And "You can go to -ANY- respectable car audio store and they will
tell you the same, conserning the rear fill theory." Then, let us not
forget, "It tends to ruin your front soundstage."

Those are all your words basically telling him that rear fill will ruin his
soundstage and all the respectable car audio stores are doing the same
thing. It's a fad! 10 years from now surround sound will be all the rage and
your car won't sound good unless you have tweeters in the rear. You don't
tell the guy that you like it because.... You spouting the latest craze and
if he doesn't subscribe to it then his car won't sound as good.


> > It's just from a soundstage point of view that you'll want
> > > to take out the highs from the rear.
> >
> > Says who? I do not seem to recall the no rear fill thing being hugely
> > popular say ten years ago. Did SQ change?
> >
> > >>> Guess you need to pay more attention then. In the last few years
> > the rear fill w/SQ has faded out.

I never said it hadn't. It is just the latest fad! It wasn't around 10 years
ago like it is today. SQ didn't change, just what the so called audiophiles
think is SQ did. I still go with what I think sounds good. I could really
care less what some judge at a show thinks, it's my car after all.

> > It also has time alignment built in. I can adjust time
> > > delay, room size, reverberation, as well as others. I am mostly into
> > > SQ, so I have no rearfill.
> >
> > So SQ and no rearfill are directly related? Says who? You like SQ and
> > that
> > is great. You also happen to not like rear fill and that's great too.
> > But
> > don't proceed to imply that you cannot have SQ if you have rear fill.
> >
> > >>> Where did I say that they where related? AGAIN, I DIDN'T!

"I am mostly into SQ, so I have no rearfill."

The implication is that you are into SQ, therefore you do not have rearfill.

"If your front stage is set up correctly, you wont need rear fill."
"Go to a sound off comp. like IASCA/i to see how many SQ cars have rear
fill,"
"It's just from a soundstage point of view that you'll want
to take out the highs from the rear."
"It tends to ruin your front soundstage."

Is that enough? You have said it over and over again that rear fill ruins
your sound stage and that you don't need it. It is just not true. It only
"ruins" it if you don't like it. But he just might like it, I know many
people who do. You are implying (look it up if you don't understand it's
meaning) that SQ and no rear fill are directly related. You are stating
opinions as facts. A noob probably won't know the difference and might
actually think you are right and equate rear fill to mean bad sound.

> > You can
> > > go to -ANY- respectable caraudio store and they will tell you the
> > same,
> > > conserning the rear fill theory.
> >
> > I can also go to quite a few reputable shops that will tell me that
> > clipping
> > blows speakers, should I believe that too? Alot of reputable car shops
> > swear
> > by one or two brands of subs and none are as good. So I guess I should
> > believe them because they are reputable?
> >
> > >>> you've got me there, it is hard to find a reputable store.

Exactly!! So who can you listen too? Only yourself.


> > Go to a sound off comp. like IASCA/i
> > > to see how many SQ cars have rear fill, @ 10% if you're lucky.
> >
> > So? The SQ judging has become a joke in my opinion anyway. But let
> > the
> > judges sit in the back and see what they say about those SQ cars then.
> >
> > >>> WHo drives there car from the back seat? It's based on the front
> > two seats, not the back two.

Why is it based on the front two seats? That's pretty stupid if you ask me.
I design and install sound reinforcement systems on a regular basis. If I
only designed the system to sound good to half the people then I have failed
in my job. If it sounds like crap to the rear half of the audience then it
doesn't really matter what it sounds like up front. Not like they care they
are in the back.

> > I,ve
> > > been in this busness for over 10 years,
> >
> > Good for you, so you should remember the time before no rear fill
> > became
> > popular?
> >
> > >>> I had rear fill at one point, yes!, but I went for SQ after that.

And another implication that having rear fill means you cannot have SQ.


>>SQ is subjective and you nor I can tell this OP what is going to
> > sound
> > good to him, so why try? You can tell him what your personal preference
> > is
> > and why, but the implications that rear fill and SQ are unrelated is
> > asinine. You tell the guy to purposefully disable a perfectly working
> > set of
> > drivers! For no good reason. You tell him that if the front stage is
> > set up
> > correctly you don't need rear fill! Which is untrue if you want anyone
> > but
> > the 2 front passengers to hear anything but bass and mud. Do what you
> > want,
> > but don't pretend it is right and true for everybody.
> >
> > >>> This is getting old, AGAIN! I DID NOT TELL HIM THAT THAT'S WHAT
> > WILL SOUND GOOD!

You didn't? Look at the quotes above and tell me if you really think that.

>>That, is what MOST people belive, myself included.

Most? In my experience it is quite the opposite. I think that most
"audiophiles" think that. But that's only because they cannot think for
themselves. As you read in Eddie's post that he says that most people like
sound from the rear.

It
> > seems as if you're telling me that I don't know what sounds good. Isn't
> > that your opinion?

You know what sounds good to you. But then you lie to the OP and tell him
things like rear fill will ruin your soundstage.

On how things sound to you , myself, or anyone else
> > IS a personal opinion. You're right. When again did I say that this or
> > that is right or wrong.

You didn't. You just IMPLIED it. Read what I have quoted of you from you
earlier posts. You imply in all of that that rear fill is bad. It is never
an I think, or In my experience. You made it fact. Which it isn't.

It's people like you that twist others words
> > around.

Maybe you should read the posts again. I said you implied, which you did. No
twisting involved.

If I or someone forgets to mention that this is there personal
> > pref, excuse them, don't rip them a new a$$hole

It's not that you forgot to mention anything. It is that you purposfully fed
this guy a bunch of bull****. You stated your opinions as if they were the
only correct way.

If I told the guy that he should put in rear fill and that if he doesn't
then that would ruin his imaging and that anybody who know's anything have
rear fill then am I telling the guy it won't sound good without rear fill?

Not directly.

But is that implying that he has to have rear fill to sound good?

Yes it is.

It is exactly the same thing you have done.

Bottom line, again. Do what sounds good to you. Just be aware of a few
things like your rear passengers if you choose no rearfill. Or if you choose
rear fill then find the balance that you like. There is no right or wrong.
No rear fill is just the latest fad if you like it then do it, but not
because of everyone else.

BTW: Do you think that I have rear fill in my vehicle?

> So it is important that you QUOTE what you are replying too. That way
> > everyone accessing the newsgroup the way it is supposed to be accessed
> > knows
> > who and what you are replying too.
>
>
>
> >>>Hope I did this right.

Pretty good. Although your text was in with my text so it takes a bit of
deciphering. But I think that has more to do with Lee's setup and I am not
sure if there is much that you can do about it. Except bug Lee to either fix
it right or take it down.

Les

[smgreen1820]

This is my last responce to this. So I'm not going to quote everything,
I think that the readers are smart enough to figure it out. I'll leave
blanks between one from the next Q.

Not easily acheived? Clarion did a good job.

He seems to want a "-live-" sound from a nonlive album. Rear fill would
work in this case.

This whole sound stage/ rear fill deal is a fact. Look it up. I don't
have the links off hand to give you that'll explain how and why.It's
basicly the same type of thought that "under powering a sub will blow
it". Not true. One of those type deals.

Is that enough? You have said it over and over again that rear fill
ruins....
From an LP point of view, you are listening for what 's in front of you
only. It seems that you guys want it all around you.That's cool, but to
have it all around you, It's like listening to the stereo with your
back to the front stage. It throughs the sound stage WAY off. Which is
not how the musician recorded it.

Why is it based on the front two seats? That's pretty stupid if you ask
me.....
I would guess you're talking about home/business systems. It's way
diff. in a vehicle. You have a large room to fill as apossed to a
small.

And another implication that having rear fill means you cannot have
SQ.
Let me restate that. You can't get an accurate sound stage. In some
systems can cause poor SQ.


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[smgreen1820]

This is my last responce to this. So I'm not going to quote everything,
I think that the readers are smart enough to figure it out. I'll leave
blanks between one from the next Q.

Not easily acheived? Clarion did a good job.

He seems to want a "-live-" sound from a nonlive album. Rear fill would
work in this case.

This whole sound stage/ rear fill deal is a fact. Look it up. I don't
have the links off hand to give you that'll explain how and why.It's
basicly the same type of thought that "under powering a sub will blow
it". Not true. One of those type deals.

Is that enough? You have said it over and over again that rear fill
ruins....
From an LP point of view, you are listening for what 's in front of you
only. It seems that you guys want it all around you.That's cool, but to
have it all around you, It's like listening to the stereo with your
back to the front stage. It throughs the sound stage WAY off. Which is
not how the musician recorded it.

Why is it based on the front two seats? That's pretty stupid if you ask
me.....
I would guess you're talking about home/business systems. It's way
diff. in a vehicle. You have a large room to fill as apossed to a
small.

And another implication that having rear fill means you cannot have
SQ.
Let me restate that. You can't get an accurate sound stage. In some
systems can cause poor SQ.

As you read in Eddie's post that he says that most people like
sound from the rear.
Or more of a "home theater" type of sound.

You didn't. You just IMPLIED it.
One that implies what one said is one that assumes, which makes an A$$
out of U and ME.

It's not that you forgot to mention anything. It is that you
purposfully fed
this guy a bunch of bull****.
I don't feed BS to anyone. I state things as it IS or as I SEE it. That
might be a problem, as it is here.

BTW: Do you think that I have rear fill in my vehicle?
After all this I would say no, but than again??????

I hope Les gets this fixed. This is old quick.


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[Les]

"smgreen1820" > wrote in message
...
>
> This is my last responce to this. So I'm not going to quote everything,
> I think that the readers are smart enough to figure it out. I'll leave
> blanks between one from the next Q.
>
> Not easily acheived? Clarion did a good job.

No it is not easily achieved. They may do a good job *for what it is* but
they cannot possibly do a good job of recreating anything with a one size
fits all solution.

>
> He seems to want a "-live-" sound from a nonlive album. Rear fill would
> work in this case.

Why would you think that? You don't even know if I have rear fill in my
vehicle. It doesn't matter so I didn't say one way or the other.

> This whole sound stage/ rear fill deal is a fact.

Bull****.

>Look it up.

Sorry, I don't have time to try and argue your point, you can do it.

I don't
> have the links off hand to give you that'll explain how and why.

If you don't know how and why then how do you know it does? You don't even
know why you are saying what you are. Like I said, you spout crap that you
read in some rag or someones angelfire webpage. Find me some credible
sources and then we can talk about your "facts".

It's
> basicly the same type of thought that "under powering a sub will blow
> it". Not true. One of those type deals.

No that's not true, but what are you talking about here?

>
> Is that enough? You have said it over and over again that rear fill
> ruins....
> From an LP point of view, you are listening for what 's in front of you
> only. It seems that you guys want it all around you.

I do? Never said that.

That's cool, but to
> have it all around you, It's like listening to the stereo with your
> back to the front stage.

It is? Maybe you just don't know how to set it up.

It throughs the sound stage WAY off. Which is
> not how the musician recorded it.

Really? They recorded it so you can enjoy it, alot of times the musicians
have little input into the mastering process. Relatively few bands actually
have input on the final outcome. (Notice the word relatively, yes there are
alot but they would be the in the few when compared to how many are out
there) I still don't think you know how to even set it up. And what does it
matter. If someone likes rearfill, which I would suspect most people do,
then by all means throw it in. I personally do not like the way many things
are recorded to begin with so I really don't care about the intent too much.
Except in a few special cases.

>
> Why is it based on the front two seats? That's pretty stupid if you ask
> me.....
> I would guess you're talking about home/business systems. It's way
> diff. in a vehicle.

How? The fundamental principles of audio do not change.

You have a large room to fill as apossed to a
> small.

I've done large rooms, small rooms, living rooms, kitchens, bathrooms, and
cars. The principles never changed. I had a space to fill with good sound. I
make sure that spaces have good sound throughout. That's just me though.

>
> And another implication that having rear fill means you cannot have
> SQ.
> Let me restate that. You can't get an accurate sound stage. In some
> systems can cause poor SQ.


You better start restating the last few posts. All of them are full of
implications that rear fill= no SQ.

The whole purpose of the discussion has basically been rear fill vs SQ. Your
so called "facts" are a bunch of crap. If it sounds good to someone then do
it, whatever it is. I know plenty of people who are happy with the stock
systems, should I go tell them all that everyone at IASCA is all aftermarket
with no rears and this and that, and that if they don't do that then they do
not have SQ? Nope.
So come back when you actually know why you think the way you do and maybe
then you'll understand that the facts aren't so factual after all.
Les