Flash in the dash: make it happen!

[Jack]

With all the hype over Zunes and iPods, why is it so hard to make a car
head-unit with a removable flash card or hard-drive? I can't think of a
better way to implement car stereo. CD-Rs don't hold enough songs for a
massive collection, and both CD-Rs and DVDs are cumbersome to overwrite. I
see no reason why an in-dash player can't have the same technology as a
"walkman" portable.

It's been a long time since I've needed a portable player with headphones.
I do the majority of listening on the road. MP3 isn't just the realm of
college students walking to class or listening to lectures. Do marketers
think it's still a "kid's" thing?

Jack

[danssoslow]

Sony makes units that take that magicstick, or whatever it is they call
it.
My thought on it: so many people have gotten into the personal mp3/ipod
players that most companies have produced radios that will interface,
even control, those personal units. I figure a headphone jack on the
front or rear of a radio would be a heck of alot cheaper, and easier to
integrate, than a usb port.
Speaking of USB ports, I've seen some dookie brand CD player on eBay
that had a couple USB ports on the face of the unit.


--
danssoslow

[John]

Yep, I've seen a few of the cheaper headunits that have usb (flash
drive) ports right on the front. They're dirt cheap flea market brands
usually from wat I've seen. I think partsexpress carried at least one
at some time.

Hard drive head units and accessories have been around, as for major
brands I think kenwood had an earlier one.

RCA and other auxillary inputs have been common and their
connect-ability, or adaptability, and are pretty well universal when it
comes to use...

Even older factory head units have aux inputs, GM has a common 1.5 din
hu that has this feature...

However, control is an issue there. I wouldn't think that major
companies would want to the risk of being responsible for people taking
there eyes off the road, as is the issue with screens/monitors.

Plus, why not add your own unique auxillary/special port, that way you
can add and develop new devices in addition to the normal rca/headphone
jack.

From a consumer prospective, it's not that great because it cost me
more money, but from a producing company prospective it a damn good
design to implement. I especially have Alpine's Ai-net and M-bus ports
in mind here...


--
John

[MOSFET]

Oh man, don't even get me going on this one. I have so many theories about
this whole thing....

First, regarding flash memory cards on the front of HU's. It's an OBVIOUS
fit and makes so much damn sense it's pathetic. Today's flash memory cards
can hold over 2 gigs, much more than a CD-R full of MP3's.

If this is such a good idea, why do we only see this on flea-market brands?
Well, could be several reasons. First and foremost, HU manufacturers could
be waiting for an obvious "winner" format to go with. In other words, if
Alpine chooses to go with SD cards, but SM cards become the most popular
format, they are left out in the cold. They just can't build a HU that will
accommodate them all like a 7-in-1 card reader like most of us now have on
our computers. I think many are waiting for a clear DOMINANT flash memory
format.

Another reason could be just a general reluctance to move away from the CD
format. CD players have much more moving parts than flash memory card
readers and there would be much fewer "worn out" HU's that needed replacing
(this is a rather cynical view) if people stopped spinning CD's. Fewer worn
out HU's mean fewer replaced HU's which means smaller profits in the future.

As far as why we don't see more HD based head units, I have to wonder if
Apple is involved. Take Alpine for instance. Right now they are on a big
kick to make their units completely iPod compatible (so you can operate the
iPod controls from your HU). I can imagine Apple might get a little ****ed
if Alpine went and started putting HD's in their HU's. In fact, it might
**** Apple off so much that they may not make it possible for the units to
interface anymore. The iPod is KING right now and the name of the game is
INTERFACING, not REPLACING.

Also, look at all the money that is being made by selling accessories to
interface your iPod (or whatever portable MP3 player you might have) to your
existing HU. Just go to Ebay and pull up "iPod Accessories" and you will
see what I'm talking about. BIG MONEY. Companies like Sony, Kenwood,
Pioneer and Alpine make big bucks selling iPod interface accessories. That
would all go away if EVERYTHING was self contained in your hard drive based
HU.

Anyway, these are just one guy's thoughts on the matter.

MOSFET


"Jack" > wrote in message
...
> With all the hype over Zunes and iPods, why is it so hard to make a car
> head-unit with a removable flash card or hard-drive? I can't think of a
> better way to implement car stereo. CD-Rs don't hold enough songs for a
> massive collection, and both CD-Rs and DVDs are cumbersome to overwrite. I
> see no reason why an in-dash player can't have the same technology as a
> "walkman" portable.
>
> It's been a long time since I've needed a portable player with headphones.
> I do the majority of listening on the road. MP3 isn't just the realm of
> college students walking to class or listening to lectures. Do marketers
> think it's still a "kid's" thing?
>
> Jack

[mfreak]

> I think many are waiting for a clear DOMINANT flash memory
> format. Another reason could be just a general reluctance to move
> away from the CD format.
> CD players have much more moving parts than flash memory card
> readers and there would be much fewer "worn out" HU's that needed replacing
> (this is a rather cynical view) if people stopped spinning CD's. Fewer worn
> out HU's mean fewer replaced HU's which means smaller profits in the future.

Maybe, but usb flash drives are small, reasonably cheap, and they
aren't going ANYWHERE. ALL pc's have usb drives, and for the most part,
nothing else. Any HU could easily have both a cd player AND a usb port
on it.. The usb circuitry in an HU is tiny.

Also, everyone who buys a car who would buy any aftermarket HU in the
first place is gonna buy the newer HU models. Hell, I can't even find
a cda-9827 or anything close to that old in any stores, install shops,
etc.. Stores will always carry the newest models, and that's what you
get to pick from.

Besides availability, HU's have FAR more advanced features every year.
My cda-9827 isn't THAT old, but it was the shizz when I bought it..
Played mp3's off cd, interfaced with xm, nice display that read id3
tags, it was GREAT! Now guess what, im sick of burning mp3 cd's all
the time, the display sux, I want a new model that plays mp3 off dvd's
instead, and the displays I've seen lately make mine look like a $10
digital alarm clock... I got what, 1 row of 8 or 10 characters?

But it does sound GREAT, which is the only reason I still have it. So
I'll wait to get a new car before I splurge on another HU. I'll
transplant the rest of my system.

> As far as why we don't see more HD based head units, I have to wonder if
> Apple is involved. Take Alpine for instance. Right now they are on a big
> kick to make their units completely iPod compatible (so you can operate the
> iPod controls from your HU). I can imagine Apple might get a little ****ed
> if Alpine went and started putting HD's in their HU's. In fact, it might
> **** Apple off so much that they may not make it possible for the units to
> interface anymore.

I dont see why HU mfr's are so bent on controlling your ipod... It's
like they just do it to show they can, to add another 'feature' to the
product to make it more marketable. I personally find the ipod
interface to be about the easiest thing in the world to use. IDK what
Alpine is doing, is it really that good? Can it really be any easier?
I'd probably prefer to use the ipod's interface anyway. An 1/8"
line-in jack on the front of the HU is all I want.

Also, HD's, even laptop ones, are too big (2.5"x4") to fit on a single
DIN HU face. So it would have to be internal, ie stay in the dash. So
it'd be cumbersome to load, which is exactly why I like the usb flash
idea much better. You'd prolly need a flash drive to load em up! MP3
on dvd is STILL the #1 option for now IMO, until those blu-ray discs
get popular anyway.... Flash drives are still only good for a few
gigs, which is fine if you don't have a lot of music I guesss, but ppl
aren't gonna buy a bunch of em just for mp3s. Sheeit, I can burn up
500 dvd's (>2.3TB is SOOOO way more than plenty) for the price of 1 8
gig (not even close to enough) flash drive.

Anyway, that's MY take on flash and hd HU's.

[MOSFET]

> Anyway, that's MY take on flash and hd HU's.
>
You raise many good points that I DO agree with. But in nearly all your
points you seem to be forgetting the profit motive.

Don't forget, first and foremost, ALL these companies are going to do what
makes the most money for their shareholders, NOT WHAT IS BEST FOR THE
CONSUMER. I'd like to think that MOST of the time these two goals go
hand-in-hand. In other words, if you build a better mouse-trap, more
people buy the mouse-trap which better serves the consumer AND better serves
the company that produces the mouse-trap.

But the profit motive and what is best for the consumer sometimes DO NOT go
hand-in-hand. I believe we are seeing the bifurcation of these two goals
RIGHT NOW in the HU industry. Companies like Alpine, Sony, Pioneer, and
Kenwood COULD make a better HU that incorporates some of the features we
have been talking about (hard drives, flash memory ports, etc.). But they
are NOT, IMHO, because of the INCREDIBLE popularity of the iPod and they
believe more money can be made by trying to INTEGRATE their units with iPods
(by selling integration accessories) rather than building a unit that could
REPLACE an iPod.

Look, I don't like it either. Don't get me wrong. I'm not ADVOCATING these
strategies. I would LOVE to have a HD based HU or an SD slot on the front
of my Alpine.

But I believe this is what is going on in the industry. Like I said, the
iPod is KING. iPod INTEGRATION (not iPod replacement) is the name of the
game right now. But it will eventually change.

MOSFET

[John]

I brought that up already mosfet, and alpine does offer the equipment so
that you can plug in a usb flash drive or other usb device.


--
John

[danssoslow]

I would like to add to the topic of integration, and how beneficial it
is for a company like Alpine to be associated with the iPod. They get
to be part of the most popular form of music storage, without the need
to develop or produce a single storage device. As long as they are in
cahoots with Apple, the architecture of the interphase will always be
the same; all Alpine has to do is implement the interphase in any radio
they decide, and Apple will produce new products that will work with
that system. Sound like a win-win situation for Alpine.


--
danssoslow

[MOSFET]

Yes, but what I was talking about was ports directly on the face of the HU's
that would accept flash memory cards or a USB port directly on the HU face.

In a sense, you validated the point I was making: you have to buy EXTRA
STUFF to have USB capability. Why not put a USB port right on the front of
the face (they're small)? ANSWER: Because Alpine can make more money
selling you interface accessories.

Again, THAT IS THE NAME OF THE GAME, ADD-ON ACCESSORIES (like iPod interface
accessories). When you start putting hard drives inside a HU OR start
putting SD card slots on the front of a HU face, the consumer does not have
to buy anything additional anymore (well, flash memory cards obviously,
WHICH ALPINE DOESN'T MAKE I SHOULD ADD).

Look, Alpine in PARTICULAR has been playing this game for as long as I can
remember. You have ALWAYS needed to buy an adaptor (the KCA-121 I believe)
if you wanted to plug in the audio from a VCR or something (with RCA's) to
your Alpine going back over a decade.

Yet other HU manufacturers have been offering RCA AUX inputs on the back of
their HU's for years.

I love their stuff, but the fact is, Alpine is an old pro at the
"add-on-accessories" game and they are CERTAINLY not about to change a
winning strategy.

MOSFET

MOSFET

"John" > wrote in message
...
>
> I brought that up already mosfet, and alpine does offer the equipment so
> that you can plug in a usb flash drive or other usb device.
>
>
> --
> John

[danssoslow]

My Alpine has a 1/8" jack on the back of the headunit. I just assumed I
could plug anything in to it. As a matter of fact, I was planning on
getting a Roadie and plugin' her in ther instead of doing the RF thing.
I got it used off of eBay, and don't have a manual; are you telling me I
will need an adapter to use the jack? If so, that sucks...


--
danssoslow

[MOSFET]

"danssoslow" > wrote in message
...
>
> My Alpine has a 1/8" jack on the back of the headunit. I just assumed I
> could plug anything in to it. As a matter of fact, I was planning on
> getting a Roadie and plugin' her in ther instead of doing the RF thing.
> I got it used off of eBay, and don't have a manual; are you telling me I
> will need an adapter to use the jack? If so, that sucks...
>

What model number is it? I am certainly no expert on every single ALpine
unit EVER made and yours might be an exception, but my understanding was
that because of their AI-NET "capability", an adaptor was ALWAYS needed if
you wanted to connect a non-Alpine audio source to an Alpine unit.

MOSFET

[danssoslow]

MOSFET Wrote:
> "danssoslow" > wrote in
> message
> ...
> >
> > My Alpine has a 1/8" jack on the back of the headunit. I just assumed
> I
> > could plug anything in to it. As a matter of fact, I was planning on
> > getting a Roadie and plugin' her in ther instead of doing the RF
> thing.
> > I got it used off of eBay, and don't have a manual; are you telling
> me I
> > will need an adapter to use the jack? If so, that sucks...
> >
>
> What model number is it? I am certainly no expert on every single
> ALpine
> unit EVER made and yours might be an exception, but my understanding
> was
> that because of their AI-NET "capability", an adaptor was ALWAYS needed
> if
> you wanted to connect a non-Alpine audio source to an Alpine unit.
>
> MOSFET

I'll try to get that model # here asap. I'm stuck here at the inlaws in
my girlfriend's car. And for the simplicity of name callin;, yes, the
inlaws are the parents of the girlfriend. :) I can imagine how that
might sound to anyone that doesn't know the situation...

I can tell you that it's a lower model without AI-NET. It's labled
AUXillary above the jack.


--
danssoslow

[MOSFET]

all Alpine has to do is implement the interphase in any radio
> they decide, and Apple will produce new products that will work with
> that system. Sound like a win-win situation for Alpine.
>
ABSOLUTELY. AND JUST THINK OF THOSE IPOD-INTERFACE-ACCESORIES REVENUES!

So the VERY LAST THING Alpine would go and do is produce a unit with a built
in HD as that would make an iPod obsolete in the car. Nor will they produce
a unit with a USB port or flash memory card port on the faces of their HU's
as that also might make an iPod (or iPod like product) obsolete in the car.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

> I can tell you that it's a lower model without AI-NET. It's labled
> AUXillary above the jack.
>
Ah, WITHOUT AI-NET. That might be the key. Perhaps non Ai-NET units have
this capability. But get the model number if you can, I would like to
research that.

MOSFET

[John]

>What model number is it? I am certainly no expert on every single
ALpine
>unit EVER made and yours might be an exception, but my understanding
was
>that because of their AI-NET "capability", an adaptor was ALWAYS
needed if
>you wanted to connect a non-Alpine audio source to an Alpine unit.

They also used their "M-bus" port before...


--
John

[danssoslow]

CDE-9845. That M-bus thing was along the same lines wasn't it?
Propriatary DIN plug stuff? My knowledge of that stuff reaches no
further than the Crutchfield mags I used to get as a kid and slobber
oogly over. Alpine did have its share of innovative disasters. Anyone
have a 6 tape changer lying around? :)


--
danssoslow

[MOSFET]

> CDE-9845.

Well bust my britches!

I think you might be in business. All the specifications I could find on
that model indicate that it does INDEED have a "Audio Line-In" (it does not
elaborate more than this). This must be the 1/8" jack you see in the back
labeled "line-in".

And as I had suspected, this is due to the fact that this unit does not have
Ai-NET or M-BUS capability.

How about that? Because a unit LACKS something you GAIN something (well,
you gain not having to go out and buy something else)!

MOSFET

[no29db]

JVC kd-g720


http://www.futureshop.ca/multimedia/products/large/10071824.jpgjvc

[danssoslow]

I smell selling point when it comes time to replace it. :) I just hope
the satellite radio I end up getting actually sounds decent throught
it.


--
danssoslow