Tower Records is gone [Archive]

Jenn

October 9th 06, 07:00 AM

In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
"ScottW" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> >> .
> >> com
> >> ...
> >> > Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>
> >> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >> I shall not mourn.
> >>
> >> ScottW
> >
> > I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most about the closing
> > will be classical buyers:
> > A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D shopping, because
> > of the value of browsing. It seems to be a common story that classical
> > folks find so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
> > This is not nearly as fruitful online.
> > B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR more stock than
> > does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>
> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to keep the business
> model going.

Obviously.

> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line catalogs and
> MP3 samples? What can you get out of looking at the cases
> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider selections?

Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in Hollywood and
San Francisco. There you would have had the ability to browse through,
for example, large sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
recording review magazines each month, as well as specialist
professional journals such as (for the present example) the Choral
Journal published by the American Choral Directors Association. In
spite of this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many works
and composers in this way. This is just one example. Multiply this by
several genres, composers, etc.

How does one do this online?
>
> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop shops who weren't
> interested in what the record companies wanted promoted or moved
> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it did to pop music
> culture over the last couple of decades.
>
> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a display of talent
> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by the likes of
> MTV and Chain record stores.
>
> ScottW

I would agree.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 12:19 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> "ScottW" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>> ...
>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> .
>>>> com ...
>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.

Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated, inefficient, poor-service
business model.

>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>> I shall not mourn.

Agreed.

>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most
>>> about the closing will be classical buyers:

>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
>>> shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems
>>> to be a common story that classical folks find so many
>>> treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
>>> This is not nearly as fruitful online.

I've always found online browsing to be far more fruitful than browsing
through record bins.

>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin stores.

No physical store has the inventory that is available and browsable on the
web.

>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to
>> keep the business model going.

Most consumers found their business model to be other than what they wanted.

> Obviously.

>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line
>> catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get out of
>> looking at the cases
>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider
>> selections?

Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't about the music.

> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
> You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
> Hollywood and San Francisco.

Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't appreciate it because you aren't
as cosmopolitan as I am" approach.

> There you would have had
> the ability to browse through, for example, large
> sections of choral music.

What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?

>I read all of the standard
> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> specialist professional journals such as (for the present
> example) the Choral Journal published by the American
> Choral Directors Association.

More snobbery.

> In spite of this, when
> browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting
> things that I hadn't heard of.

Inability to browse the web noted.

> I have discovered many
> works and composers in this way.

Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on the web.

> This is just one
> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
> etc.

Inability to effectively browse the web noted.

> How does one do this online?

Start out by learning how to spell google.

>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop shops
>> who weren't interested in what the record companies
>> wanted promoted or moved
>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it did to
>> pop music culture over the last couple of decades.

Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the power to undo.

>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a display of
>> talent
>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by the
>> likes of
>> MTV and Chain record stores.

Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That makes every Tower store a
chain store.

> I would agree.

And thus contradict yourself. Good job!

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 12:20 PM

"MiNe 109" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> .
>>>> com
>>>>
>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>
>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>
>>> Normal humans have feelings about places they used to
>>> enjoy visiting.
>>
>> Meaning exactly what, in this case?
>
> That the closing of Tower could be sad for people who
> often visited the place in its glory days of deep
> catalog, imports and frequent sales.

But they aren't normal humans.

> The classical rooms
> and annex stores were virtual oases in the days before
> online and mail-order.

That was then, this is now.

> DG/London/Philips for $5.99 could make my day.

Irrelevant.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 12:21 PM

"paul packer" > wrote in message

> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>
>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>
>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>
>
> What sort of music do you listen to, Arnie? I missed your
> reply to that question last time.

I'm tired of repeating myself to you Paul. Answering you again would make me
more co-dependent with you than I already am,

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 12:28 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>
>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>
>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>
> The reason that I mourn the passing of Tower is that it
> means that the ability to browse is lessened.

Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted. Most normal people
found that to be a superior alternative.

> You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
> Hollywood and San Francisco.

No, but I did visit several Tower stores in Manhanttan, including Lincoln
Center and Villiage.

> There you would have had
> the ability to browse through, for example, large
> sections of choral music.

So what? A person can no doubt browse through far more choral music on the
web.

> I read all of the standard
> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> specialist professional journals such as (for the present
> example) the Choral Journal published by the American
> Choral Directors Association. In spite of this, when
> browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting
> things that I hadn't heard of.

You can't do that on the web?

> I have discovered many
> works and composers in this way. This is just one
> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
> etc.

Name a work, genre, and/or composer that can't be found on the web.

> How does one do this online?

Start out with a good search engine, and go from there.

paul packer

October 9th 06, 01:19 PM

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 07:21:25 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"paul packer" > wrote in message

>> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>>
>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>
>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>
>>
>> What sort of music do you listen to, Arnie? I missed your
>> reply to that question last time.
>
>I'm tired of repeating myself to you Paul. Answering you again would make me
>more co-dependent with you than I already am,

Hmm...this reply suggests you may have taken the advice of many here
and consulted a psychologist. Good for you, Arnie.

MiNe 109

October 9th 06, 01:19 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> In article
> >>> >, "Arny
> >>> Krueger" > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>> message
> >>>>
> >>>> y.
> >>>> com
> >>>>
> >>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>
> >>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
> >>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
> >>
> >>> Normal humans have feelings about places they used to
> >>> enjoy visiting.
> >>
> >> Meaning exactly what, in this case?
> >
> > That the closing of Tower could be sad for people who
> > often visited the place in its glory days of deep
> > catalog, imports and frequent sales.
>
> But they aren't normal humans.

They're a subset of normal humans exhibiting a normal trait.

> > The classical rooms
> > and annex stores were virtual oases in the days before
> > online and mail-order.
>
> That was then, this is now.
>
> > DG/London/Philips for $5.99 could make my day.
>
> Irrelevant.

It's on-topic. Anyone else learn about classical music label
affiliations from Tower sales?

Stephen

MiNe 109

October 9th 06, 01:22 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted. Most normal people
> found that to be a superior alternative.

The advantages are similar to those of a card catalog.

Stephen

George M. Middius

October 9th 06, 01:54 PM

paul packer said:

> Hmm...this reply suggests you may have taken the advice of many here
> and consulted a psychologist. Good for you, Arnie.

If he did, the experiment was a complete failure. Next up for Arnii should
be Boot Camp for Psychotics.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 01:58 PM

"MiNe 109" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "MiNe 109" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>>
>>>>> In article
>>>>> >, "Arny
>>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>> message
>>>>>>
>>>>>> y.
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to
>>>>>> offer that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>>> Normal humans have feelings about places they used to
>>>>> enjoy visiting.
>>>>
>>>> Meaning exactly what, in this case?
>>>
>>> That the closing of Tower could be sad for people who
>>> often visited the place in its glory days of deep
>>> catalog, imports and frequent sales.

>> But they aren't normal humans.

> They're a subset of normal humans exhibiting a normal
> trait.

What, being obsessive?

>>> The classical rooms
>>> and annex stores were virtual oases in the days before
>>> online and mail-order.
>>
>> That was then, this is now.
>>
>>> DG/London/Philips for $5.99 could make my day.
>>
>> Irrelevant.

> It's on-topic.

Says you.

> Anyone else learn about classical music
> label affiliations from Tower sales?

Pathetic.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 01:58 PM

"paul packer" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 07:21:25 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>>
>>> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>
>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>> What sort of music do you listen to, Arnie? I missed
>>> your reply to that question last time.
>>
>> I'm tired of repeating myself to you Paul. Answering you
>> again would make me more co-dependent with you than I
>> already am,
>
> Hmm...this reply suggests you may have taken the advice
> of many here and consulted a psychologist. Good for you,
> Arnie.

LOL!

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 01:59 PM

"MiNe 109" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted.
>> Most normal people found that to be a superior
>> alternative.
>
> The advantages are similar to those of a card catalog.
>

Can you tell the difference?

dave weil

October 9th 06, 02:58 PM

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 08:59:08 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"MiNe 109" > wrote in message

>> In article >,
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>
>>> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted.
>>> Most normal people found that to be a superior
>>> alternative.
>>
>> The advantages are similar to those of a card catalog.
>>
>
>Can you tell the difference?

There IS no difference.

[email protected]

October 9th 06, 03:01 PM

>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
>>>> shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems
>>>> to be a common story that classical folks find so many
>>>> treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
>>>> This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>
> I've always found online browsing to be far more fruitful than browsing
> through record bins.
>

I agree that the physical record store is no longer needed or wanted. I
used to buy at my local record store but then they stopped special
ordering and they hardly ever had what I wanted. Two cheers for
cduniverse and Netflix.

George M. Middius

October 9th 06, 03:02 PM

RibbitBorg dares to contradict his master, the splendiferously fecal
Krooborg.

> >What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?

> The same thing that is wrong with the presentation of most data on the computer
[snip]

> >More snobbery.

> Perhaps, but she was also perhaps trying to make the point that she
> does a lot to try and keep abreast of what's newly available in the
> Choral genre. Add in the following point:

> >Inability to browse the web noted.

> No, the point is that she is pretty well-acquainted (or should be)
> with the genre, and still finds things that she hadn't heard.
[snip]

> >Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the power to undo.

> Not always.

Ribbit, you are unabashedly inviting a Bad Krooger Experience. Enjoy!™
Go figure!™ That's LOL!™

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 03:05 PM

> wrote in message

>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
>>>>> shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems
>>>>> to be a common story that classical folks find so many
>>>>> treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
>>>>> This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>
>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.

> I agree that the physical record store is no longer
> needed or wanted. I used to buy at my local record store
> but then they stopped special ordering and they hardly
> ever had what I wanted. Two cheers for cduniverse and
> Netflix.

You forgot the surley sales staff who either didn't care or weren't as
all-knowing as they wanted to represent.

These are among the point that the others have missed.

The record store as we knew it disappeared because normal people found
something that they found more suitable for their purposes, which are
enjoying music not obsessing over bins.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 03:07 PM

"Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 07:28:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>
>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>>
>>> The reason that I mourn the passing of Tower is that it
>>> means that the ability to browse is lessened.
>>
>> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted.
>> Most normal people found that to be a superior
>> alternative.
>
> More convenient anyway. They can now sit in their
> underwear and shop for records. :-)
>
>>
>>> There you would have had
>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
>>> sections of choral music.
>>
>> So what? A person can no doubt browse through far more
>> choral music on the web.
>
> But is browsing on the web as effective as browsing in a
> store? Is it the same experience?
>
>
>>> I have discovered many
>>> works and composers in this way. This is just one
>>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
>>> etc.
>>
>> Name a work, genre, and/or composer that can't be found
>> on the web.
>
> That isn't the point.
>
>>
>>> How does one do this online?
>>
>> Start out with a good search engine, and go from there.
>>
>
> It can be hard to find something with a search engine
> when you don't know the item exists in the first place.

It's just a matter of playing "sounds like".

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 03:09 PM

"Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message

> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>
>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>
>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>
>
> What if this is a case where "better" is a subjective
> term? :-)

For the sentimentalists, this could easily be true.

Jenn is obviously sentimental about a certain form of media and its physical
trappings.

I'm not. If I'm interested in music I want to get to the fun part where one
listens to music that one enjoys. Fiddling with media is not the same to me
as listening to music.

dave weil

October 9th 06, 03:21 PM

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:01:30 -0500, wrote:

>
>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
>>>>> shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems
>>>>> to be a common story that classical folks find so many
>>>>> treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
>>>>> This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>
>> I've always found online browsing to be far more fruitful than browsing
>> through record bins.
>>
>
>I agree that the physical record store is no longer needed or wanted.

You forgot the two most important words - "for me".

> I used to buy at my local record store but then they stopped special
>ordering and they hardly ever had what I wanted.

Well, it's a shame that you had a poor record store.

> Two cheers for cduniverse and Netflix.

Those are fine for as far as it goes. But there's something to be said
for listening stations, helpful clerks, touch and feel, and sighted
browsing of actual product. Well, there's the interaction of people
with people as well. I know one hugely popular band (well, not so much
in the States) which was begun by its principals meeting in a certain
section of the Nashville Tower store. Now they can't go to Japan
without being mobbed.

Eeyore

October 9th 06, 03:24 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> The record store as we knew it disappeared because normal people found
> something that they found more suitable for their purposes, which are
> enjoying music not obsessing over bins.

I ceased using record shops when it became no longer possible to audition
an album. Online music does this very effectively though but isn't nearly
as well implemented as it should be.

Graham

dave weil

October 9th 06, 03:36 PM

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 15:24:11 +0100, Eeyore
> wrote:

>
>
>Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> The record store as we knew it disappeared because normal people found
>> something that they found more suitable for their purposes, which are
>> enjoying music not obsessing over bins.
>
>I ceased using record shops when it became no longer possible to audition
>an album. Online music does this very effectively though but isn't nearly
>as well implemented as it should be.
>
>Graham

Once again, it's a shame that you don't have access to a GOOD record
store. Of course, it's one of those self-fulfilling prophecy sort of
things when services start getting cut. Eventually, it will probably
only be the independents that can supply that sort of personal
service. Tower did it about as well as any of the giants though.

And this is speaking as someone who has hundreds of albums and a few
thousand songs (and access to hundreds of thousands of albums) through
a paid subscription to Napster; but it still feels like there's
something lacking when I can't pick up a "product" and read the liner
notes or look at an album cover.

Jenn

October 9th 06, 04:01 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message
>
> > On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >> message
> >> .
> >> com
> >>
> >>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>
> >> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
> >> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
> >>
> >
> > What if this is a case where "better" is a subjective
> > term? :-)
>
> For the sentimentalists, this could easily be true.
>
> Jenn is obviously sentimental about a certain form of media and its physical
> trappings.

Nope, I'm "sentimental" about those aspects of shopping in 3D that I've
clearly discussed here.

Jenn

October 9th 06, 04:07 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >> message
> >> .
> >> com
> >>
> >>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>
> >> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
> >> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
> >
> > The reason that I mourn the passing of Tower is that it
> > means that the ability to browse is lessened.
>
> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted. Most normal people
> found that to be a superior alternative.

[ Note that in response to a non-insulting post to Arny, Arny still
feels the need to respond in an insulting way ]

>
> > You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
> > Hollywood and San Francisco.
>
> No, but I did visit several Tower stores in Manhanttan, including Lincoln
> Center and Villiage.
>
> > There you would have had
> > the ability to browse through, for example, large
> > sections of choral music.
>
> So what? A person can no doubt browse through far more choral music on the
> web.

How so, Arny? Please give an example in, say, Amazon.

>
> > I read all of the standard
> > recording review magazines each month, as well as
> > specialist professional journals such as (for the present
> > example) the Choral Journal published by the American
> > Choral Directors Association. In spite of this, when
> > browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting
> > things that I hadn't heard of.
>
> You can't do that on the web?

Please provide an example of how to do this.

>
> > I have discovered many
> > works and composers in this way. This is just one
> > example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
> > etc.
>
> Name a work, genre, and/or composer that can't be found on the web.

Beside the point, Arny. How does one browse all of the choral music
available at Amazon, for example?

Jenn

October 9th 06, 04:12 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >> message
> >> .
> >> com
> >> ...
> >>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>> message
> >>>>
> >>>> y.
> >>>> com ...
> >>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>
> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated, inefficient, poor-service
> business model.
>
> >>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >>>> I shall not mourn.
>
> Agreed.
>
> >>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most
> >>> about the closing will be classical buyers:
>
> >>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
> >>> shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems
> >>> to be a common story that classical folks find so many
> >>> treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
> >>> This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>
> I've always found online browsing to be far more fruitful than browsing
> through record bins.
>
> >>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
> >>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>
> No physical store has the inventory that is available and browsable on the
> web.
>
> >> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to
> >> keep the business model going.
>
> Most consumers found their business model to be other than what they wanted.
>
> > Obviously.
>
> >> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
> >> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line
> >> catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get out of
> >> looking at the cases
> >> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider
> >> selections?
>
> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't about the music.
>
> > Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
> > You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
> > Hollywood and San Francisco.
>
> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't appreciate it because you aren't
> as cosmopolitan as I am" approach.

Incorrect yet again, Arny. I presume that you haven't visited those
stores because they aren't local to you.

>
> > There you would have had
> > the ability to browse through, for example, large
> > sections of choral music.
>
> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?

Addressed in another post.

>
> >I read all of the standard
> > recording review magazines each month, as well as
> > specialist professional journals such as (for the present
> > example) the Choral Journal published by the American
> > Choral Directors Association.
>
> More snobbery.

No Arny; you're projecting again. I'm simply pointing out that I'm
informed about new recording releases in a particular genre.

>
> > In spite of this, when
> > browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting
> > things that I hadn't heard of.
>
> Inability to browse the web noted.
>
> > I have discovered many
> > works and composers in this way.
>
> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on the web.
>
> > This is just one
> > example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
> > etc.
>
> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
>
> > How does one do this online?
>
> Start out by learning how to spell google.

I can spell it correctly, unlike your sentence above.

>
> >> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop shops
> >> who weren't interested in what the record companies
> >> wanted promoted or moved
> >> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it did to
> >> pop music culture over the last couple of decades.
>
> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the power to undo.
>
> >> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a display of
> >> talent
> >> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by the
> >> likes of
> >> MTV and Chain record stores.
>
> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That makes every Tower store a
> chain store.
>
> > I would agree.
>
> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!

There's no contradiction at all. What do you imagine to be the
contradiction?

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 04:22 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> .
>>>> com
>>>>
>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>
>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>>
>>> The reason that I mourn the passing of Tower is that it
>>> means that the ability to browse is lessened.
>>
>> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted.
>> Most normal people found that to be a superior
>> alternative.
>
> [ Note that in response to a non-insulting post to Arny,
> Arny still feels the need to respond in an insulting way ]
>
>>
>>> You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
>>> Hollywood and San Francisco.
>>
>> No, but I did visit several Tower stores in Manhanttan,
>> including Lincoln Center and Villiage.
>>
>>> There you would have had
>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
>>> sections of choral music.
>>
>> So what? A person can no doubt browse through far more
>> choral music on the web.
>
> How so, Arny? Please give an example in, say, Amazon.
>
>>
>>> I read all of the standard
>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
>>> American Choral Directors Association. In spite of
>>> this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of.
>>
>> You can't do that on the web?
>
> Please provide an example of how to do this.

Too obvious to bother with.

>>> I have discovered many
>>> works and composers in this way. This is just one
>>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
>>> etc.
>>
>> Name a work, genre, and/or composer that can't be found
>> on the web.

> Beside the point, Arny.

Dismissive attitude noted.

> How does one browse all of the choral music available at Amazon, for
> example?

Not my job, but probably easier and takes less time than browsing an equal
amount of choral music at the LA Tower.

BTW, the LA Tower no doubt has far less choral music than can be found in a
few minutes on the web.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 04:24 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message
>>
>>> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> .
>>>> com
>>>>
>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>
>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What if this is a case where "better" is a subjective
>>> term? :-)
>>
>> For the sentimentalists, this could easily be true.
>>
>> Jenn is obviously sentimental about a certain form of
>> media and its physical trappings.
>
> Nope, I'm "sentimental" about those aspects of shopping
> in 3D that I've clearly discussed here.

Many of which seem to be as usual based on your personal biases and
preferences.

The irony is that since Tower and businesses like it can easily be predicted
to disappear over time, it is you Jenn that will have to change. While you
can afford to keep your own legacy LP playback system, I don't hink you can
afford to keep your own legacy record store of a suitable size. ;-)

Jenn

October 9th 06, 04:26 PM

Jenn

October 9th 06, 04:28 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>> message
> >>>>
> >>>> y.
> >>>> com
> >>>>
> >>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>
> >>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
> >>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> What if this is a case where "better" is a subjective
> >>> term? :-)
> >>
> >> For the sentimentalists, this could easily be true.
> >>
> >> Jenn is obviously sentimental about a certain form of
> >> media and its physical trappings.
> >
> > Nope, I'm "sentimental" about those aspects of shopping
> > in 3D that I've clearly discussed here.
>
> Many of which seem to be as usual based on your personal biases and
> preferences.

Of course!

>
> The irony is that since Tower and businesses like it can easily be predicted
> to disappear over time, it is you Jenn that will have to change.

Of course!

> While you
> can afford to keep your own legacy LP playback system, I don't hink you can
> afford to keep your own legacy record store of a suitable size. ;-)

Of course!

Bertie the Bunyip

October 9th 06, 04:30 PM

Eeyore > wrote in
:

>
>
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> The record store as we knew it disappeared because normal people
found
>> something that they found more suitable for their purposes, which are
>> enjoying music not obsessing over bins.
>
> I ceased using record shops when it became no longer possible to
audition
> an album. Online music does this very effectively though but isn't
nearly
> as well implemented as it should be.
>

Gonna netkkopp the vendors, fjukktard?

bertie
>

ScottW

October 9th 06, 05:03 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in message
...
> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> "ScottW" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>> > In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> >> .
>> >> com
>> >> ...
>> >> > Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>> >>
>> >> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>> >> I shall not mourn.
>> >>
>> >> ScottW
>> >
>> > I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most about the closing
>> > will be classical buyers:
>> > A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D shopping, because
>> > of the value of browsing. It seems to be a common story that classical
>> > folks find so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
>> > This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>> > B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR more stock than
>> > does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>>
>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to keep the business
>> model going.
>
> Obviously.
>
>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line catalogs and
>> MP3 samples? What can you get out of looking at the cases
>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider selections?
>
> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
> You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in Hollywood and
> San Francisco. There you would have had the ability to browse through,
> for example, large sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
> recording review magazines each month, as well as specialist
> professional journals such as (for the present example) the Choral
> Journal published by the American Choral Directors Association. In
> spite of this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
> interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many works
> and composers in this way. This is just one example. Multiply this by
> several genres, composers, etc.
>
> How does one do this online?

So what caught your eye?
The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
You can search all the above.
I like all music guide
www.allmusic.com
as a good starting point.

Most of the on-line retailers have decent catalog search
features on their web sites as well.

>>
>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop shops who weren't
>> interested in what the record companies wanted promoted or moved
>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it did to pop music
>> culture over the last couple of decades.
>>
>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a display of talent
>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by the likes of
>> MTV and Chain record stores.
>>
>> ScottW
>
> I would agree.

So turning the industry on its head may not be all bad.

ScottW

Jenn

October 9th 06, 05:10 PM

In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
"ScottW" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> >> .
> >> com
> >> ...
> >> > In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> >> >>
> >> >> gy.
> >> >> com
> >> >> ...
> >> >> > Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >> >>
> >> >> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >> >> I shall not mourn.
> >> >>
> >> >> ScottW
> >> >
> >> > I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most about the closing
> >> > will be classical buyers:
> >> > A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D shopping, because
> >> > of the value of browsing. It seems to be a common story that classical
> >> > folks find so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
> >> > This is not nearly as fruitful online.
> >> > B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR more stock than
> >> > does, for example, the Virgin stores.
> >>
> >> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to keep the business
> >> model going.
> >
> > Obviously.
> >
> >> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
> >> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line catalogs and
> >> MP3 samples? What can you get out of looking at the cases
> >> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider selections?
> >
> > Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
> > You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in Hollywood and
> > San Francisco. There you would have had the ability to browse through,
> > for example, large sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
> > recording review magazines each month, as well as specialist
> > professional journals such as (for the present example) the Choral
> > Journal published by the American Choral Directors Association. In
> > spite of this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
> > interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many works
> > and composers in this way. This is just one example. Multiply this by
> > several genres, composers, etc.
> >
> > How does one do this online?
>
> So what caught your eye?
> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?

Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know about...

> You can search all the above.
> I like all music guide
> www.allmusic.com
> as a good starting point.

How does one search on what one doesn't know about? The same would
apply, I suppose, to new indie popular music. This applies less to
Tower than it does to our local store, of course.

>
> Most of the on-line retailers have decent catalog search
> features on their web sites as well.
>
>
>
> >>
> >> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop shops who weren't
> >> interested in what the record companies wanted promoted or moved
> >> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it did to pop music
> >> culture over the last couple of decades.
> >>
> >> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a display of talent
> >> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by the likes of
> >> MTV and Chain record stores.
> >>
> >> ScottW
> >
> > I would agree.
>
> So turning the industry on its head may not be all bad.

I agree. There is MUCH wrong, IMV, with the industry.

ScottW

October 9th 06, 05:30 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in message
...
> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
> "ScottW" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>> > In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> >> .
>> >> com
>> >> ...
>> >> > In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> >> >>
>> >> >> gy.
>> >> >> com
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >> > Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>> >> >> I shall not mourn.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ScottW
>> >> >
>> >> > I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most about the closing
>> >> > will be classical buyers:
>> >> > A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D shopping, because
>> >> > of the value of browsing. It seems to be a common story that classical
>> >> > folks find so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
>> >> > This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>> >> > B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR more stock than
>> >> > does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>> >>
>> >> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to keep the business
>> >> model going.
>> >
>> > Obviously.
>> >
>> >> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
>> >> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line catalogs and
>> >> MP3 samples? What can you get out of looking at the cases
>> >> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider selections?
>> >
>> > Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
>> > You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in Hollywood and
>> > San Francisco. There you would have had the ability to browse through,
>> > for example, large sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
>> > recording review magazines each month, as well as specialist
>> > professional journals such as (for the present example) the Choral
>> > Journal published by the American Choral Directors Association. In
>> > spite of this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>> > interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many works
>> > and composers in this way. This is just one example. Multiply this by
>> > several genres, composers, etc.
>> >
>> > How does one do this online?
>>
>> So what caught your eye?
>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>
> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know about...
>
>> You can search all the above.
>> I like all music guide
>> www.allmusic.com
>> as a good starting point.
>
> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?

You're telling me that you're into buying music
with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
and location.
Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your hand
for you.

ScottW

Jenn

October 9th 06, 05:32 PM

In article <5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08>,
"ScottW" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> >> .
> >> com
> >> ...
> >> > In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> >> >>
> >> >> gy.
> >> >> com
> >> >> ...
> >> >> > In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> odi
> >> >> >> gy.
> >> >> >> com
> >> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> > Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >> >> >> I shall not mourn.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ScottW
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most about the
> >> >> > closing
> >> >> > will be classical buyers:
> >> >> > A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D shopping,
> >> >> > because
> >> >> > of the value of browsing. It seems to be a common story that
> >> >> > classical
> >> >> > folks find so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D
> >> >> > stores.
> >> >> > This is not nearly as fruitful online.
> >> >> > B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR more stock than
> >> >> > does, for example, the Virgin stores.
> >> >>
> >> >> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to keep the
> >> >> business
> >> >> model going.
> >> >
> >> > Obviously.
> >> >
> >> >> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
> >> >> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line catalogs and
> >> >> MP3 samples? What can you get out of looking at the cases
> >> >> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider selections?
> >> >
> >> > Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
> >> > You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in Hollywood and
> >> > San Francisco. There you would have had the ability to browse through,
> >> > for example, large sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
> >> > recording review magazines each month, as well as specialist
> >> > professional journals such as (for the present example) the Choral
> >> > Journal published by the American Choral Directors Association. In
> >> > spite of this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
> >> > interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many works
> >> > and composers in this way. This is just one example. Multiply this by
> >> > several genres, composers, etc.
> >> >
> >> > How does one do this online?
> >>
> >> So what caught your eye?
> >> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
> >
> > Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know about...
> >
> >> You can search all the above.
> >> I like all music guide
> >> www.allmusic.com
> >> as a good starting point.
> >
> > How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>
> You're telling me that you're into buying music
> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
> and location.

Of course!

> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your hand
> for you.
>
> ScottW

MiNe 109

October 9th 06, 06:19 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> In article
> >>> >, "Arny
> >>> Krueger" > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "MiNe 109" > wrote in
> >>>> message
> >>>>
> >>>>> In article
> >>>>> >, "Arny
> >>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>>> message
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ig
> >>>>>> y.
> >>>>>> com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to
> >>>>>> offer that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Normal humans have feelings about places they used to
> >>>>> enjoy visiting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Meaning exactly what, in this case?
> >>>
> >>> That the closing of Tower could be sad for people who
> >>> often visited the place in its glory days of deep
> >>> catalog, imports and frequent sales.
>
> >> But they aren't normal humans.
>
> > They're a subset of normal humans exhibiting a normal
> > trait.
>
> What, being obsessive?

Being record collectors and music lovers.

> >>> The classical rooms
> >>> and annex stores were virtual oases in the days before
> >>> online and mail-order.
> >>
> >> That was then, this is now.
> >>
> >>> DG/London/Philips for $5.99 could make my day.
> >>
> >> Irrelevant.
>
> > It's on-topic.
>
> Says you.

The topic is "Tower Records."

> > Anyone else learn about classical music
> > label affiliations from Tower sales?
>
> Pathetic.

Just askin's all.

Stephen

MiNe 109

October 9th 06, 06:20 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted.
> >> Most normal people found that to be a superior
> >> alternative.
> >
> > The advantages are similar to those of a card catalog.
> >
>
> Can you tell the difference?

Since you've explained the advantages of online shopping, maybe you
should explain the advantages of card catalogs by way of comparison.

Stephen

MiNe 109

October 9th 06, 06:22 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> > wrote in message
>
> >>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
> >>>>> shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems
> >>>>> to be a common story that classical folks find so many
> >>>>> treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
> >>>>> This is not nearly as fruitful online.
> >>
> >> I've always found online browsing to be far more
> >> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
>
> > I agree that the physical record store is no longer
> > needed or wanted. I used to buy at my local record store
> > but then they stopped special ordering and they hardly
> > ever had what I wanted. Two cheers for cduniverse and
> > Netflix.
>
> You forgot the surley sales staff who either didn't care or weren't as
> all-knowing as they wanted to represent.

Why would anyone be surley to you in real life?

> These are among the point that the others have missed.

I admit that how you were treated in record stores is not something I
considered.

> The record store as we knew it disappeared because normal people found
> something that they found more suitable for their purposes, which are
> enjoying music not obsessing over bins.

Maybe.

Stephen

Eeyore

October 9th 06, 06:33 PM

ScottW wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> >>
> >> ...
> >> > In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> >> >> .
> >> >> com
> >> >> ...
> >> >> > In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> gy.
> >> >> >> com
> >> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> > Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >> >> >> I shall not mourn.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ScottW
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most about the closing
> >> >> > will be classical buyers:
> >> >> > A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D shopping, because
> >> >> > of the value of browsing. It seems to be a common story that classical
> >> >> > folks find so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
> >> >> > This is not nearly as fruitful online.
> >> >> > B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR more stock than
> >> >> > does, for example, the Virgin stores.
> >> >>
> >> >> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to keep the business
> >> >> model going.
> >> >
> >> > Obviously.
> >> >
> >> >> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
> >> >> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line catalogs and
> >> >> MP3 samples? What can you get out of looking at the cases
> >> >> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider selections?
> >> >
> >> > Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
> >> > You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in Hollywood and
> >> > San Francisco. There you would have had the ability to browse through,
> >> > for example, large sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
> >> > recording review magazines each month, as well as specialist
> >> > professional journals such as (for the present example) the Choral
> >> > Journal published by the American Choral Directors Association. In
> >> > spite of this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
> >> > interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many works
> >> > and composers in this way. This is just one example. Multiply this by
> >> > several genres, composers, etc.
> >> >
> >> > How does one do this online?
> >>
> >> So what caught your eye?
> >> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
> >
> > Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know about...
> >
> >> You can search all the above.
> >> I like all music guide
> >> www.allmusic.com
> >> as a good starting point.
> >
> > How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>
> You're telling me that you're into buying music
> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
> and location.
> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your hand
> for you.
>
> ScottW

Eeyore

October 9th 06, 06:35 PM

ScottW wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote
> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >> "Jenn" > wrote
>
> >> > How does one do this online?
> >>
> >> So what caught your eye?
> >> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
> >
> > Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know about...
> >
> >> You can search all the above.
> >> I like all music guide
> >> www.allmusic.com
> >> as a good starting point.
> >
> > How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>
> You're telling me that you're into buying music
> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
> and location.
> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your hand
> for you.

Well...... I can't speak for classical but when I managed to sneak a preview of
Real's online music thingy they were trialing a couple of years back, they had a neat
feature that suggested music you might like to listen to based on your listening
history.

Graham

[email protected]

October 9th 06, 07:21 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>
> > On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >> message
> >>
> >>
> >>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>
> >> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
> >> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
> >
> >
> > What sort of music do you listen to, Arnie? I missed your
> > reply to that question last time.
>
> I'm tired of repeating myself to you Paul. Answering you again would make me
> more co-dependent with you than I already am,
=====================================
Paul asks:
> > What sort of music do you listen to, Arnie? I missed your
> > reply to that question last time.

Krueger answers:
> I'm tired of repeating myself to you Paul. Answering you again would make me
> more co-dependent with you than I already am,

Luckily the evidence of his musical taste was preseved on the web:

Krueger in May in "Arnold's meltdown"
> There (on the internet..) I can find
> a wide diversity from places like Aural Moon
> where in a day I might hear a few classic prog
> cuts from Crimson but also get to hear stuff
> I would never find on FM, from artists like
> Jerry Goodman, Annie Moses, Iona, The Box.
> Note to Bob, EVDO rev. B was announced as
> being rolled out next year. Check it out.

These are Arny's preferences. And he is welcome to them. No one
disputed them at the time, no one disputes them now. No one told him
he was a low- life ignorant of the glory of Western civilisation: its
classical music that has endured for centuries, envied and never
equalled anywhere else.
But strangely some of the more primitive pop music lovers like Arny
hate anyone who has different priorities.. Like our Arny they do
suspect in secret that they are missing something . So to reassure
themselves they talk about "snobs" and such. That gives them a cozy
feeling that if they can not understand something those who say they do
are just faking.
For some of us a book, or a record are a living depository of enduring
cultural values. Web is noise. No one expects the army of Arnys to
understand that.
Ludovic Mirabel

George M. Middius

October 9th 06, 07:34 PM

said:

> No one expects the army of Arnys to understand that.

Gak! What a horrible thought.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

dave weil

October 9th 06, 08:16 PM

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:22:57 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>>
>> Please provide an example of how to do this.
>
>Too obvious to bother with.

Dismissive attitude noted.

dave weil

October 9th 06, 08:19 PM

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:30:55 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:

>
>"Jenn" > wrote in message
...
>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>
>>> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> ...
>>> > In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>>> >> .
>>> >> com
>>> >> ...
>>> >> > In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> gy.
>>> >> >> com
>>> >> >> ...
>>> >> >> > Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>> >> >> I shall not mourn.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> ScottW
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most about the closing
>>> >> > will be classical buyers:
>>> >> > A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D shopping, because
>>> >> > of the value of browsing. It seems to be a common story that classical
>>> >> > folks find so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
>>> >> > This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>> >> > B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR more stock than
>>> >> > does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>>> >>
>>> >> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to keep the business
>>> >> model going.
>>> >
>>> > Obviously.
>>> >
>>> >> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
>>> >> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line catalogs and
>>> >> MP3 samples? What can you get out of looking at the cases
>>> >> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider selections?
>>> >
>>> > Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
>>> > You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in Hollywood and
>>> > San Francisco. There you would have had the ability to browse through,
>>> > for example, large sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
>>> > recording review magazines each month, as well as specialist
>>> > professional journals such as (for the present example) the Choral
>>> > Journal published by the American Choral Directors Association. In
>>> > spite of this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>>> > interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many works
>>> > and composers in this way. This is just one example. Multiply this by
>>> > several genres, composers, etc.
>>> >
>>> > How does one do this online?
>>>
>>> So what caught your eye?
>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>>
>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know about...
>>
>>> You can search all the above.
>>> I like all music guide
>>> www.allmusic.com
>>> as a good starting point.
>>
>> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>
> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>and location.
> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your hand
>for you.
>
>ScottW

Yes, it's called impulse buying. I'm sure that this sort of outrageous
behavior will be decried by Arnold, who doesn't like humanity very
much.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 08:19 PM

"MiNe 109" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> > wrote in message
>>
>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
>>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
>>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks
>>>>>>> find so many treasures by browsing through sections
>>>>>>> of 3D stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>>>
>>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
>>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
>>
>>> I agree that the physical record store is no longer
>>> needed or wanted. I used to buy at my local record
>>> store but then they stopped special ordering and they
>>> hardly ever had what I wanted. Two cheers for
>>> cduniverse and Netflix.
>>
>> You forgot the surley sales staff who either didn't care
>> or weren't as all-knowing as they wanted to represent.
>
> Why would anyone be surley to you in real life?

Because I woke them up?

Because I asked them a question they had to think to BS a purported answer
to?

>> These are among the point that the others have missed.

> I admit that how you were treated in record stores is not
> something I considered.

Wake up! Most people got treated that way.

>> The record store as we knew it disappeared because
>> normal people found something that they found more
>> suitable for their purposes, which are enjoying music
>> not obsessing over bins.

> Maybe.

What's your counter-theory, Stephen?

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 08:21 PM

"ScottW" > wrote in message
news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
> ...
>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>
>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>> ...
>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>> .
>>>>> com ...
>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>>>>>> in message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> gy. com
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ScottW
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks find
>>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D
>>>>>> stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online. B. The Tower
>>>>>> Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough
>>>>> to keep the business model going.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously.
>>>>
>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get
>>>>> out of looking at the cases that you can't get on-line and faster and
>>>>> in far
>>>>> wider selections?
>>>>
>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower classical stores
>>>> in Hollywood and San Francisco. There you would have
>>>> had the ability to browse through, for example, large
>>>> sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
>>>> American Choral Directors Association. In spite of
>>>> this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I have
>>>> discovered many works and composers in this way. This
>>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several genres,
>>>> composers, etc. How does one do this online?
>>>
>>> So what caught your eye?
>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>>
>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know
>> about...
>>> You can search all the above.
>>> I like all music guide
>>> www.allmusic.com
>>> as a good starting point.
>>
>> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?

One taps into the usual flow of press releases, chatter, and reviews by
people who track niches.

> You're telling me that you're into buying music
> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
> and location.

Not unusual for specialists.

> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your
> hand for you.

Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow of press releases and
reviews, etc.

dave weil

October 9th 06, 08:23 PM

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:12:43 -0400, Stuart Krivis
> wrote:

>On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:35:34 +0100, Eeyore
> wrote:
>
>>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>>> and location.
>>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your hand
>>> for you.
>>
>>Well...... I can't speak for classical but when I managed to sneak a preview of
>>Real's online music thingy they were trialing a couple of years back, they had a neat
>>feature that suggested music you might like to listen to based on your listening
>>history.
>>
>
>I've seen this at a lot of online places. Both suggesting based on
>what yov're bought in the past, and suggesting what others who have
>bought similar things to you have also bought.
>
>That can be quite useful, indeed.
>
>I think yourmusic.com even suggests other items based on what you just
>searched for.

Napster does a pretty fair job of this. and at least you can hear it
immediately and decide whether you want to hang on to it for a while.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 08:25 PM

> wrote in message
oups.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>>
>>> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>
>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>> What sort of music do you listen to, Arnie? I missed
>>> your reply to that question last time.
>>
>> I'm tired of repeating myself to you Paul. Answering you
>> again would make me more co-dependent with you than I
>> already am,
> =====================================
> Paul asks:
>>> What sort of music do you listen to, Arnie? I missed
>>> your reply to that question last time.
>
> Krueger answers:
>> I'm tired of repeating myself to you Paul. Answering you
>> again would make me more co-dependent with you than I
>> already am,
>
> Luckily the evidence of his musical taste was preseved on
> the web:

> Krueger in May in "Arnold's meltdown"

>> There (on the internet..) I can find
>> a wide diversity from places like Aural Moon
>> where in a day I might hear a few classic prog
>> cuts from Crimson but also get to hear stuff
>> I would never find on FM, from artists like
>> Jerry Goodman, Annie Moses, Iona, The Box.
>> Note to Bob, EVDO rev. B was announced as
>> being rolled out next year. Check it out.

> These are Arny's preferences.

No way, Jose. The poster of this information was ScottW

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/a1fd85b4fca25032

<snip Mirabel's weird, baseless speculations about my tastes in music>

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 08:26 PM

"MiNe 109" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted.
>>>> Most normal people found that to be a superior
>>>> alternative.
>>>
>>> The advantages are similar to those of a card catalog.
>>>
>>
>> Can you tell the difference?
>
> Since you've explained the advantages of online shopping,
> maybe you should explain the advantages of card catalogs
> by way of comparison.

Card catalogs have always struck me as being highly limited as compared to
web pages.

[email protected]

October 9th 06, 08:39 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
> >> "paul packer" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>> message
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>
> >>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
> >>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> What sort of music do you listen to, Arnie? I missed
> >>> your reply to that question last time.
> >>
> >> I'm tired of repeating myself to you Paul. Answering you
> >> again would make me more co-dependent with you than I
> >> already am,
> > =====================================
> > Paul asks:
> >>> What sort of music do you listen to, Arnie? I missed
> >>> your reply to that question last time.
> >
> > Krueger answers:
> >> I'm tired of repeating myself to you Paul. Answering you
> >> again would make me more co-dependent with you than I
> >> already am,
> >
> > Luckily the evidence of his musical taste was preseved on
> > the web:
>
> > Krueger in May in "Arnold's meltdown"
>
>
> >> There (on the internet..) I can find
> >> a wide diversity from places like Aural Moon
> >> where in a day I might hear a few classic prog
> >> cuts from Crimson but also get to hear stuff
> >> I would never find on FM, from artists like
> >> Jerry Goodman, Annie Moses, Iona, The Box.
> >> Note to Bob, EVDO rev. B was announced as
> >> being rolled out next year. Check it out.
>
> > These are Arny's preferences.
>
> No way, Jose. The poster of this information was ScottW
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/a1fd85b4fca25032
>
> <snip Mirabel's weird, baseless speculations about my tastes in music>
==============================================
I said quoting a paragraph:
> These are Arny's preferences.
>
> No way, Jose. The poster of this information was ScottW

You got me there. My face is red.

But just curious : what are your preferences? Surely they are not a
state secret.

Ludovic Mirabel

George M. Middius

October 9th 06, 08:56 PM

said to MusicHaterBorg:

> But just curious : what are your preferences? Surely they are not a
> state secret.

The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon "one of the most
moving compositions ever written". Others disagreed, as is their right.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

[email protected]

October 9th 06, 09:07 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:01:30 -0500, wrote:
>
>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
>>>>>> shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems
>>>>>> to be a common story that classical folks find so many
>>>>>> treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
>>>>>> This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more fruitful than browsing
>>> through record bins.
>>>
>> I agree that the physical record store is no longer needed or wanted.
>
> You forgot the two most important words - "for me".
>
>> I used to buy at my local record store but then they stopped special
>> ordering and they hardly ever had what I wanted.
>
> Well, it's a shame that you had a poor record store.
>
>> Two cheers for cduniverse and Netflix.
>
> Those are fine for as far as it goes. But there's something to be said
> for listening stations, helpful clerks, touch and feel, and sighted
> browsing of actual product. Well, there's the interaction of people
> with people as well. I know one hugely popular band (well, not so much
> in the States) which was begun by its principals meeting in a certain
> section of the Nashville Tower store. Now they can't go to Japan
> without being mobbed.

Listening stations...Just one more way to catch a virus from people with
bad hygiene. No thanks.

[email protected]

October 9th 06, 09:09 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message
>
>> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>>
>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>>
>> What if this is a case where "better" is a subjective
>> term? :-)
>
> For the sentimentalists, this could easily be true.
>
> Jenn is obviously sentimental about a certain form of media and its physical
> trappings.
>
> I'm not. If I'm interested in music I want to get to the fun part where one
> listens to music that one enjoys. Fiddling with media is not the same to me
> as listening to music.
>
>

Agreed. Now if someone would start offering legal flac files for the
music I listen to...Fat chance of that!

[email protected]

October 9th 06, 09:10 PM

Jenn wrote:
> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message
>>
>>> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:06:16 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> .
>>>> com
>>>>
>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>>>
>>> What if this is a case where "better" is a subjective
>>> term? :-)
>> For the sentimentalists, this could easily be true.
>>
>> Jenn is obviously sentimental about a certain form of media and its physical
>> trappings.
>
> Nope, I'm "sentimental" about those aspects of shopping in 3D that I've
> clearly discussed here.

I would guess maybe in 5 years you will be a able to wear 3D glasses on
shop on the Internet with virtual shoppers. See http://secondlife.com/

[email protected]

October 9th 06, 09:14 PM

>> How does one browse all of the choral music available at Amazon, for
>> example?
>

Ah, use cduniverse:
http://www.cduniverse.com/browsecat.asp?style=classical&cat=8365&BAB=U

[email protected]

October 9th 06, 09:16 PM

Eeyore wrote:
>
> ScottW wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>>>> How does one do this online?
>>>> So what caught your eye?
>>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know about...
>>>
>>>> You can search all the above.
>>>> I like all music guide
>>>> www.allmusic.com
>>>> as a good starting point.
>>> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>> and location.
>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your hand
>> for you.
>
> Well...... I can't speak for classical but when I managed to sneak a preview of
> Real's online music thingy they were trialing a couple of years back, they had a neat
> feature that suggested music you might like to listen to based on your listening
> history.
>
> Graham
>

see Pandora.com

[email protected]

October 9th 06, 09:20 PM

George M. Middius wrote:
>
> said to MusicHaterBorg:
>
>> But just curious : what are your preferences? Surely they are not a
>> state secret.
>
> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon "one of the most
> moving compositions ever written". Others disagreed, as is their right.
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_in_D

Great tune and much copied.

dave weil

October 9th 06, 09:26 PM

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 15:07:33 -0500, wrote:

>> Those are fine for as far as it goes. But there's something to be said
>> for listening stations, helpful clerks, touch and feel, and sighted
>> browsing of actual product. Well, there's the interaction of people
>> with people as well. I know one hugely popular band (well, not so much
>> in the States) which was begun by its principals meeting in a certain
>> section of the Nashville Tower store. Now they can't go to Japan
>> without being mobbed.
>
>Listening stations...Just one more way to catch a virus from people with
>bad hygiene. No thanks.

Well, best that you never leave the house then.

MiNe 109

October 9th 06, 09:34 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> BTW, the LA Tower no doubt has far less choral music than can be found in a
> few minutes on the web.

Delivery time is quicker.

Stephen

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 09:42 PM

> wrote in message

> dave weil wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:01:30 -0500, wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
>>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
>>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks
>>>>>>> find so many treasures by browsing through sections
>>>>>>> of 3D stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
>>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
>>>>
>>> I agree that the physical record store is no longer
>>> needed or wanted.
>>
>> You forgot the two most important words - "for me".
>>
>>> I used to buy at my local record store but then they
>>> stopped special ordering and they hardly ever had what
>>> I wanted.
>>
>> Well, it's a shame that you had a poor record store.
>>
>>> Two cheers for cduniverse and Netflix.
>>
>> Those are fine for as far as it goes. But there's
>> something to be said for listening stations, helpful
>> clerks, touch and feel, and sighted browsing of actual
>> product. Well, there's the interaction of people with
>> people as well. I know one hugely popular band (well,
>> not so much in the States) which was begun by its
>> principals meeting in a certain section of the Nashville
>> Tower store. Now they can't go to Japan without being
>> mobbed.
>
> Listening stations...Just one more way to catch a virus
> from people with bad hygiene. No thanks.

Listening stations implies either some form of mass storage that usually
seems to be sub-MP3, or used media. Online auditioning is usually also
sub-MP3, but it is immediate. BTW, I don't know how many CDs I've purchased
after listening to well-made MP3s that were made by others, but it is lots.

MiNe 109

October 9th 06, 09:46 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> > wrote in message
> >>
> >>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
> >>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
> >>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks
> >>>>>>> find so many treasures by browsing through sections
> >>>>>>> of 3D stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online.
> >>>>
> >>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
> >>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
> >>
> >>> I agree that the physical record store is no longer
> >>> needed or wanted. I used to buy at my local record
> >>> store but then they stopped special ordering and they
> >>> hardly ever had what I wanted. Two cheers for
> >>> cduniverse and Netflix.
> >>
> >> You forgot the surley sales staff who either didn't care
> >> or weren't as all-knowing as they wanted to represent.
> >
> > Why would anyone be surley to you in real life?
>
> Because I woke them up?
>
> Because I asked them a question they had to think to BS a purported answer
> to?

You tell me.

> >> These are among the point that the others have missed.
>
> > I admit that how you were treated in record stores is not
> > something I considered.
>
> Wake up! Most people got treated that way.

Got Jack Blacked, eh?

> >> The record store as we knew it disappeared because
> >> normal people found something that they found more
> >> suitable for their purposes, which are enjoying music
> >> not obsessing over bins.
>
> > Maybe.
>
> What's your counter-theory, Stephen?

I agree with you to a point, that point being the primacy of musical
utility. It's true that record collectors aren't "normal" but classical
fans were all but driven online by the lack of product available in
places where "normal" people shop.

There's also the collector mentality in which one accumulates stuff
without listening to it. That part of the market isn't "enjoying music"
as such.

Stephen

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 09:46 PM

> wrote in message

> George M. Middius wrote:
>>
>> said to MusicHaterBorg:
>>
>>> But just curious : what are your preferences? Surely
>>> they are not a state secret.
>>
>> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon
>> "one of the most moving compositions ever written".
>> Others disagreed, as is their right.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_in_D

> Great tune and much copied.

Funny you should mention that. There was an item about it on NPR on Sunday,
mentioning that among others, Peter, Paul and Mary lifted a segment of it
for "Puff".

BTW, as usual, Middius is lying. I never said that Pachelbel's Canon is
"One of the most moving compositions ever written". When it comes to
writing trite hyperbolic fluff like that, he is on his own.

I do recognize Canon's beauty, but I find that it is overplayed.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 09:48 PM

"Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:25:18 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com
>>>
>>> Luckily the evidence of his musical taste was preseved
>>> on the web:
>>
>>> Krueger in May in "Arnold's meltdown"
>>
>>
>>>> There (on the internet..) I can find
>>>> a wide diversity from places like Aural Moon
>>>> where in a day I might hear a few classic prog
>>>> cuts from Crimson but also get to hear stuff
>>>> I would never find on FM, from artists like
>>>> Jerry Goodman, Annie Moses, Iona, The Box.
>>>> Note to Bob, EVDO rev. B was announced as
>>>> being rolled out next year. Check it out.
>>
>>> These are Arny's preferences.
>>
>> No way, Jose. The poster of this information was ScottW
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/a1fd85b4fca25032
>>
>> <snip Mirabel's weird, baseless speculations about my
>> tastes in music>
>>
>
> He seems to have trouble with quoting (thus his posts
> where everything appears twice), so maybe he also has
> trouble with figuring out who said what. :-)

The word "Dyslexia" comes to mind. I hope he never practiced surgery or even
any other form of medicine on actual humans or animals with any value to
anybody.

MiNe 109

October 9th 06, 09:55 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> In article
> >>> >, "Arny
> >>> Krueger" > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted.
> >>>> Most normal people found that to be a superior
> >>>> alternative.
> >>>
> >>> The advantages are similar to those of a card catalog.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Can you tell the difference?
> >
> > Since you've explained the advantages of online shopping,
> > maybe you should explain the advantages of card catalogs
> > by way of comparison.
>
> Card catalogs have always struck me as being highly limited as compared to
> web pages.

The battle for card catalogs is lost, but there's still thought on the
subject:

http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA6365210.html

Still no way to measure smudges on a web-page!

Here's a way to preserve the proximity browsing method:

http://www.aadl.org/cat/seek/search/a?ferstler&searchscope=26&m=&SORT=D&t
opformsub=1

Stephen

dave weil

October 9th 06, 10:04 PM

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:42:03 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

> wrote in message

>> dave weil wrote:
>>> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:01:30 -0500, wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
>>>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
>>>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks
>>>>>>>> find so many treasures by browsing through sections
>>>>>>>> of 3D stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
>>>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
>>>>>
>>>> I agree that the physical record store is no longer
>>>> needed or wanted.
>>>
>>> You forgot the two most important words - "for me".
>>>
>>>> I used to buy at my local record store but then they
>>>> stopped special ordering and they hardly ever had what
>>>> I wanted.
>>>
>>> Well, it's a shame that you had a poor record store.
>>>
>>>> Two cheers for cduniverse and Netflix.
>>>
>>> Those are fine for as far as it goes. But there's
>>> something to be said for listening stations, helpful
>>> clerks, touch and feel, and sighted browsing of actual
>>> product. Well, there's the interaction of people with
>>> people as well. I know one hugely popular band (well,
>>> not so much in the States) which was begun by its
>>> principals meeting in a certain section of the Nashville
>>> Tower store. Now they can't go to Japan without being
>>> mobbed.
>>
>> Listening stations...Just one more way to catch a virus
>> from people with bad hygiene. No thanks.
>
>Listening stations implies either some form of mass storage that usually
>seems to be sub-MP3, or used media.

I didn't know that there was that much of a problem with used CDs...

....also, it seems like a stretch to think that in-store mass storage
is "sub-mp3".

>Online auditioning is usually also
>sub-MP3, but it is immediate.

And listening stations aren't?

>BTW, I don't know how many CDs I've purchased
>after listening to well-made MP3s that were made by others, but it is lots.

So? I've purchased CDs based on home-made cassettes and listening on
FM radio.

MiNe 109

October 9th 06, 10:04 PM

In article >,
wrote:

> George M. Middius wrote:
> >
> > said to MusicHaterBorg:
> >
> >> But just curious : what are your preferences? Surely they are not a
> >> state secret.
> >
> > The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon "one of the most
> > moving compositions ever written". Others disagreed, as is their right.
> >
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_in_D
>
> Great tune and much copied.

Tune?

Stephen

Bertie the Bunyip

October 9th 06, 10:09 PM

Eeyore > wrote in
:

>
>
> ScottW wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-1B1615.09101709102006
@newsclstr02.news.pro
>> digy.com...
>> > In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
>> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> >> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-B1944A.23003208102006
@newsclstr02.news.
>> >> prodigy.com ...
>> >> > In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> >> >> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-33BFD8.15484307102006
@newsclstr02.ne
>> >> >> ws.prodigy. com
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >> > In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>> >> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> >> >> >> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-3A0E3C.10203407102006
@newsclstr02
>> >> >> >> .news.prodi gy.
>> >> >> >> com
>> >> >> >> ...
>> >> >> >> > Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>> >> >> >> I shall not mourn.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ScottW
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most about
>> >> >> > the closing will be classical buyers:
>> >> >> > A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
>> >> >> > shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems to be a
>> >> >> > common story that classical folks find so many treasures by
>> >> >> > browsing through sections of 3D stores. This is not nearly as
>> >> >> > fruitful online. B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA
>> >> >> > had FAR more stock than does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to keep the
>> >> >> business model going.
>> >> >
>> >> > Obviously.
>> >> >
>> >> >> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
>> >> >> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line
>> >> >> catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get out of looking at
>> >> >> the cases that you can't get on-line and faster and in far
>> >> >> wider selections?
>> >> >
>> >> > Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
>> >> > You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
>> >> > Hollywood and San Francisco. There you would have had the
>> >> > ability to browse through, for example, large sections of choral
>> >> > music. I read all of the standard recording review magazines
>> >> > each month, as well as specialist professional journals such as
>> >> > (for the present example) the Choral Journal published by the
>> >> > American Choral Directors Association. In spite of this, when
>> >> > browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting things
>> >> > that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many works and
>> >> > composers in this way. This is just one example. Multiply this
>> >> > by several genres, composers, etc.
>> >> >
>> >> > How does one do this online?
>> >>
>> >> So what caught your eye?
>> >> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>> >
>> > Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know about...
>> >
>> >> You can search all the above.
>> >> I like all music guide
>> >> www.allmusic.com
>> >> as a good starting point.
>> >
>> > How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>>
>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>> and location.
>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your hand
>> for you.
>>
>> ScottW

netkkkoping ****

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip

October 9th 06, 10:19 PM

Eeyore > wrote in
:

>
>
> ScottW wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote
>> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >> "Jenn" > wrote
>>
>> >> > How does one do this online?
>> >>
>> >> So what caught your eye?
>> >> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>> >
>> > Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know about...
>> >
>> >> You can search all the above.
>> >> I like all music guide
>> >> www.allmusic.com
>> >> as a good starting point.
>> >
>> > How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>>
>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>> and location.
>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your hand
>> for you.
>
> Well...... I can't speak for classical but when I managed to sneak a
> preview of Real's online music thingy they were trialing a couple of
> years back, they had a neat feature that suggested music you might
> like to listen to based on your listening history.
>

So, for you Spice gurls and wham, eh netkkkop?

Bertie

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

October 9th 06, 10:27 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >> message
> >>
> >>> In article
> >>> >, "Arny
> >>> Krueger" > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>> message
> >>>> .
> >>>> com
> >>>>
> >>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>
> >>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
> >>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
> >>>
> >>> The reason that I mourn the passing of Tower is that it
> >>> means that the ability to browse is lessened.
> >>
> >> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted.
> >> Most normal people found that to be a superior
> >> alternative.
> >
> > [ Note that in response to a non-insulting post to Arny,
> > Arny still feels the need to respond in an insulting way ]
> >
> >>
> >>> You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
> >>> Hollywood and San Francisco.
> >>
> >> No, but I did visit several Tower stores in Manhanttan,
> >> including Lincoln Center and Villiage.
> >>
> >>> There you would have had
> >>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
> >>> sections of choral music.
> >>
> >> So what? A person can no doubt browse through far more
> >> choral music on the web.
> >
> > How so, Arny? Please give an example in, say, Amazon.
> >
> >>
> >>> I read all of the standard
> >>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> >>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
> >>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
> >>> American Choral Directors Association. In spite of
> >>> this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
> >>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of.
> >>
> >> You can't do that on the web?
> >
> > Please provide an example of how to do this.
>
> Too obvious to bother with.
>
> >>> I have discovered many
> >>> works and composers in this way. This is just one
> >>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
> >>> etc.
> >>
> >> Name a work, genre, and/or composer that can't be found
> >> on the web.
>
> > Beside the point, Arny.
>
> Dismissive attitude noted.
>
> > How does one browse all of the choral music available at Amazon, for
> > example?
>
> Not my job, but probably easier and takes less time than browsing an equal
> amount of choral music at the LA Tower.
>
> BTW, the LA Tower no doubt has far less choral music than can be found in a
> few minutes on the web.

Translation: "I cannae do it!"

George M. Middius

October 9th 06, 10:30 PM

Turdborg lied:

> >> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon
> >> "one of the most moving compositions ever written".
> >> Others disagreed, as is their right.

> BTW, as usual, Middius is lying. I never said that Pachelbel's Canon is
> "One of the most moving compositions ever written".

Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:

"... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces of music
known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&

Now who's the liar?

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

George M. Middius

October 9th 06, 10:30 PM

MiNe 109 said:

> > > The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon "one of the most
> > > moving compositions ever written". Others disagreed, as is their right.

> > Great tune and much copied.

> Tune?

Be gentle with the 'borg, Stephen -- you know about their limited
vocabularies.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

Arny Krueger

October 9th 06, 10:54 PM

"George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
[dot] net> wrote in message

> Turdborg lied:
>
>>>> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon
>>>> "one of the most moving compositions ever written".
>>>> Others disagreed, as is their right.
>
>> BTW, as usual, Middius is lying. I never said that
>> Pachelbel's Canon is "One of the most moving
>> compositions ever written".
>
> Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:
>
> "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces
> of music known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&
>
> Now who's the liar?

You are the deceiver, Middius. You left out a word - "emotionally", no doubt
intentially. You obviously knewi that I'd search for the exact text you
posted, and post what I posted when I failed to find it.

MiNe 109

October 9th 06, 11:14 PM

In article >,
George M. Middius <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net>
wrote:

> MiNe 109 said:
>
> > > > The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon "one of the
> > > > most
> > > > moving compositions ever written". Others disagreed, as is their right.
>
> > > Great tune and much copied.
>
> > Tune?
>
> Be gentle with the 'borg, Stephen -- you know about their limited
> vocabularies.

Most would recognize a ground when they hear it but not know the right
name.

My favorite version is Eno's.

Stephen

Jenn

October 9th 06, 11:22 PM

George M. Middius

October 9th 06, 11:35 PM

The Krooborg admits to being mentally challenged.

> > Turdborg lied:

> >>>> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon
> >>>> "one of the most moving compositions ever written".
> >>>> Others disagreed, as is their right.

> >> BTW, as usual, Middius is lying. I never said that
> >> Pachelbel's Canon is "One of the most moving
> >> compositions ever written".

> > Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:

> > "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces
> > of music known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."

> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&

> > Now who's the liar?

> You are the deceiver, Middius. You left out a word - "emotionally", no doubt
> intentially. You obviously knewi that I'd search for the exact text you
> posted, and post what I posted when I failed to find it.

Bwahahaha! What a tool you are.

BTW, you disgusting sack of ****, Jenn doesn't fear you. She pities you.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

George M. Middius

October 9th 06, 11:38 PM

RibbitBorg rallies to prop up the Krooborg's crumbling ego.

> >> Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:

> >> "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces
> >> of music known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."

> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&
> >> Now who's the liar?

> >You are the deceiver, Middius. You left out a word - "emotionally", no doubt
> >intentially. You obviously knewi that I'd search for the exact text you
> >posted, and post what I posted when I failed to find it.

> Aren't you giving Middius too much credit here? I'm not sure he's that
> smart.

"Smart"? Bwahahaha to you too, Stoopey. The day a Normal acts out one of
the Krooborg's wild paranoid fantasies is the day Satan has returned from
the netherworld and taken over the human race.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

Eeyore

October 9th 06, 11:46 PM

"George M. Middius" wrote:

> Turdborg lied:
>
> > >> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon
> > >> "one of the most moving compositions ever written".
> > >> Others disagreed, as is their right.
>
> > BTW, as usual, Middius is lying. I never said that Pachelbel's Canon is
> > "One of the most moving compositions ever written".
>
> Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:
>
> "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces of music
> known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&
>
> Now who's the liar?

He didn't say *he* found it "One of the most moving compositions ever written" did he ?

Anyway - how sad can you be dragging this up ?

Graham

Jenn

October 9th 06, 11:55 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> > wrote in message
>
> > George M. Middius wrote:
> >>
> >> said to MusicHaterBorg:
> >>
> >>> But just curious : what are your preferences? Surely
> >>> they are not a state secret.
> >>
> >> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon
> >> "one of the most moving compositions ever written".
> >> Others disagreed, as is their right.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_in_D
>
> > Great tune and much copied.
>
> Funny you should mention that. There was an item about it on NPR on Sunday,
> mentioning that among others, Peter, Paul and Mary lifted a segment of it
> for "Puff".

Peter didn't "lift" it. It's one of the most common chord progressions
extant in all of music. It's a variant on the "circle" progression. It
existed before Pachelbel.

Jenn

October 10th 06, 12:00 AM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
> > "Jenn" > wrote in
> > message
> >
> > om...
> >> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
> >> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>> message
> >>>
> >>> .com
> >>> ...
> >>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> >>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>> message
> >>>>>
> >>>>> gy.
> >>>>> com ...
> >>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
> >>>>>>> in message
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>> gy. com
> >>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ScottW
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
> >>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
> >>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
> >>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
> >>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks find
> >>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D
> >>>>>> stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online. B. The Tower
> >>>>>> Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
> >>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin stores.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough
> >>>>> to keep the business model going.
> >>>>
> >>>> Obviously.
> >>>>
> >>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
> >>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
> >>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get
> >>>>> out of looking at the cases that you can't get on-line and faster and
> >>>>> in far
> >>>>> wider selections?
> >>>>
> >>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
> >>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower classical stores
> >>>> in Hollywood and San Francisco. There you would have
> >>>> had the ability to browse through, for example, large
> >>>> sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
> >>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> >>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
> >>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
> >>>> American Choral Directors Association. In spite of
> >>>> this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
> >>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I have
> >>>> discovered many works and composers in this way. This
> >>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several genres,
> >>>> composers, etc. How does one do this online?
> >>>
> >>> So what caught your eye?
> >>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
> >>
> >> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know
> >> about...
> >>> You can search all the above.
> >>> I like all music guide
> >>> www.allmusic.com
> >>> as a good starting point.
> >>
> >> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>
> One taps into the usual flow of press releases, chatter, and reviews by
> people who track niches.
>
> > You're telling me that you're into buying music
> > with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
> > and location.
>
> Not unusual for specialists.
>
> > Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your
> > hand for you.
>
> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow of press releases and
> reviews, etc.

Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as "snobbery".

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

October 10th 06, 12:44 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
> [dot] net> wrote in message
>
> > Turdborg lied:
> >
> >>>> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon
> >>>> "one of the most moving compositions ever written".
> >>>> Others disagreed, as is their right.
> >
> >> BTW, as usual, Middius is lying. I never said that
> >> Pachelbel's Canon is "One of the most moving
> >> compositions ever written".
> >
> > Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:
> >
> > "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces
> > of music known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&
> >
> > Now who's the liar?
>
> You are the deceiver, Middius. You left out a word - "emotionally", no doubt
> intentially. You obviously knewi that I'd search for the exact text you
> posted, and post what I posted when I failed to find it.

Why didn't you just search for 'Pachelbel' or 'Canon' Arny?

I can't imagine that you post so much about Pachelbel so as to confuse
the search...

Although using 'emotionally' would narrow it down to probably one.;-(

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

October 10th 06, 12:45 AM

Stuart Krivis wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:54:05 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
> >"George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
> >[dot] net> wrote in message
>
> >> Turdborg lied:
> >>
> >>>>> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon
> >>>>> "one of the most moving compositions ever written".
> >>>>> Others disagreed, as is their right.
> >>
> >>> BTW, as usual, Middius is lying. I never said that
> >>> Pachelbel's Canon is "One of the most moving
> >>> compositions ever written".
> >>
> >> Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:
> >>
> >> "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces
> >> of music known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."
> >>
> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&
> >>
> >> Now who's the liar?
> >
> >You are the deceiver, Middius. You left out a word - "emotionally", no doubt
> >intentially. You obviously knewi that I'd search for the exact text you
> >posted, and post what I posted when I failed to find it.
> >
>
> Aren't you giving Middius too much credit here? I'm not sure he's that
> smart.

No, but Arny *is* that insane.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

October 10th 06, 12:48 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> ...actual humans or animals with any value to
> anybody.

You are very weird.

George M. Middius

October 10th 06, 12:56 AM

Poopie demonstrates his fealty to the grubby-fingered goal of
institutionalized stupidity.

> > Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:

> > "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces of music
> > known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."

> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&
> > Now who's the liar?

> He didn't say *he* found it "One of the most moving compositions ever written" did he ?

No, apparently not. Are you stupid enough to believe Mr. **** was quoting
somebody else's opinion and not profferring his own?

BTW, if you read the rest of Turdy's irrational ranting in that post, you
might change your tiny mind about defending him to the death.

> Anyway - how sad can you be dragging this up ?

Why do you say "dragging this up"? For Normals, that expression is
associated with embarrassment. Do you believe that post embarrassed the
Krooborg? Bear in mind that a creature who is pathologically unable to
perceive himself as other see him is almost certainly incapable of
experiencing embarrassment.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

dizzy

October 10th 06, 12:59 AM

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:

>Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
>> [dot] net> wrote in message
>>
>> > Turdborg lied:
>> >
>> >>>> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon
>> >>>> "one of the most moving compositions ever written".
>> >>>> Others disagreed, as is their right.
>> >
>> >> BTW, as usual, Middius is lying. I never said that
>> >> Pachelbel's Canon is "One of the most moving
>> >> compositions ever written".
>> >
>> > Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:
>> >
>> > "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces
>> > of music known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."
>> >
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&
>> >
>> > Now who's the liar?
>>
>> You are the deceiver, Middius. You left out a word - "emotionally", no doubt
>> intentially. You obviously knewi that I'd search for the exact text you
>> posted, and post what I posted when I failed to find it.
>
>Why didn't you just search for 'Pachelbel' or 'Canon' Arny?
>
>I can't imagine that you post so much about Pachelbel so as to confuse
>the search...
>
>Although using 'emotionally' would narrow it down to probably one.;-(

Yep. Arny should have had his **** together before making the "lying"
accusation.

Eeyore

October 10th 06, 01:19 AM

"George M. Middius" wrote:

> Poopie demonstrates his fealty to the grubby-fingered goal of
> institutionalized stupidity.
>
> > > Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:
>
> > > "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces of music
> > > known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."
>
> > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&
> > > Now who's the liar?
>
> > He didn't say *he* found it "One of the most moving compositions ever written" did he ?
>
> No, apparently not.

Well there you go then ! Case not proven.

Graham

George M. Middius

October 10th 06, 01:30 AM

dizzy said:

> >Although using 'emotionally' would narrow it down to probably one.;-(

> Yep. Arny should have had his **** together before making the "lying"
> accusation.

In what universe is "emotionally moving" any different in meaning from
"moving"?

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

George M. Middius

October 10th 06, 01:31 AM

Shhhh! said:

> > ...actual humans or animals with any value to
> > anybody.

> You are very weird.

Arnii was acknowledging the unflagging loyalty of his pet donkey, albeit
in a backhanded way.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

paul packer

October 10th 06, 02:05 AM

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:38:08 -0400, George M. Middius <cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote:

>The day a Normal acts out one of
>the Krooborg's wild paranoid fantasies is the day Satan has returned from
>the netherworld and taken over the human race.

Ooops, bad analogy.

paul packer

October 10th 06, 02:08 AM

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:35:43 -0400, George M. Middius <cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote:

>
>BTW, you disgusting sack of ****, Jenn doesn't fear you. She pities you.

Arny's only just back, George. Let's not be too harsh too soon.

Arny Krueger

October 10th 06, 02:29 AM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>> news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>> om...
>>>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>>
>>>>> .com
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> gy.
>>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>>>>>>>> in message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>> gy. com
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ScottW
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
>>>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
>>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
>>>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
>>>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks
>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through sections of
>>>>>>>> 3D stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had
>>>>>>>> FAR
>>>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
>>>>>>>> stores.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough
>>>>>>> to keep the business model going.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand
>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
>>>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get
>>>>>>> out of looking at the cases that you can't get
>>>>>>> on-line and faster and in far
>>>>>>> wider selections?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
>>>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower classical
>>>>>> stores in Hollywood and San Francisco. There you
>>>>>> would have
>>>>>> had the ability to browse through, for example, large
>>>>>> sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
>>>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
>>>>>> American Choral Directors Association. In spite of
>>>>>> this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would
>>>>>> find interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I
>>>>>> have discovered many works and composers in this
>>>>>> way. This
>>>>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several
>>>>>> genres, composers, etc. How does one do this
>>>>>> online?
>>>>>
>>>>> So what caught your eye?
>>>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>>>>
>>>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know
>>>> about...
>>>>> You can search all the above.
>>>>> I like all music guide
>>>>> www.allmusic.com
>>>>> as a good starting point.
>>>>
>>>> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>>
>> One taps into the usual flow of press releases, chatter,
>> and reviews by people who track niches.
>>
>>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>>> and location.
>>
>> Not unusual for specialists.
>>
>>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your
>>> hand for you.
>>
>> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow of
>> press releases and reviews, etc.
>
> Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
> "snobbery".

So is that an intentional falsehood or an unintentional falsehood on your
part, Jenn?

Arny Krueger

October 10th 06, 02:30 AM

"paul packer" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:35:43 -0400, George M. Middius
> <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> BTW, you disgusting sack of ****, Jenn doesn't fear you.
>> She pities you.
>
> Arny's only just back, George. Let's not be too harsh too
> soon.

Actually, under the conditions George's voluntary declaration effectively
says that he fears my effect on Jenn.

[email protected]

October 10th 06, 02:31 AM

Stuart Krivis wrote:
> On 9 Oct 2006 11:21:13 -0700, " >
> wrote:
>
> >For some of us a book, or a record are a living depository of enduring
> >cultural values. Web is noise. No one expects the army of Arnys to
>
> Like what, a work by Beethoven? Yes, it's true that this is a display
> of enduring cultural values by whites of European stock. It may not be
> so wonderful to someone from another culture.
>
> It's also rather fruitless to speculate whether what is currently
> popular will be seen as worthwhile by people in the future. Even past
> popular items that we don't value now might well arise from the ashes
> and be valued highly. (Classical music could all be considered a bunch
> of trash by everyone 100 years from now. We don't know what will
> happen.)
>
> There is, certainly, noise on the Internet. However, there is also
> some very valuable content, and just observing the ongoing process is
> valuable and something momentous. You can compare some of the things
> we are seeing to things that happened after Gutenberg started printing
> with movable type. So sit back and enjoy the ride. It's nothing if not
> exciting. :-)
___________________________________________

Mr. Krivis, the universal man, is deeply concerned about "other
cultures";

> Like what, a work by Beethoven? Yes, it's true that this is a display
> of enduring cultural values by whites of European stock. It may not be
> so wonderful to someone from another culture.
>
I'll help you out. No, it is not valued by the enormous majority of
even the "whites of European stock" either. So what?

But it is valued by such as Yo Yo Ma, Kiri Te Kanawa, the Tokyo quartet
and countless others studying Western music in the Indian, Japanese,
Chinese music schools. The Muscovites took to it with enthusiasm the
minute they came in contact with it.in the 18th century. Granted that
in Nigeria, amongst the Bushmen in Kalahari Desret or the Inuit in the
frozen North it may not mean much.

But I haven't heard of reciprocity: music schools in the West training
pupils in Chinese, Indian or Japanese music. You with your far reach
no doubt attend the rehearsals and recitals and can enlighten us..

> Classical music could all be considered a bunch
> of trash by everyone 100 years from now. We don't know what will
> happen.

You may well be right. In the old snobbish days the elite had its
standards aspired to. Now that everyone can read (not for too long),
and has money for entertainment the standards are following the buck.
Music conservatories will play Metallica and sopranos sing Linda
Ronstadt. It will be a truly wonderful world to hope for and cherish.
Lots of luck.

Ludovic Mirabel

Jenn

October 10th 06, 02:33 AM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> >> news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
> >>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>> message
> >>>
> >>> .c
> >>> om...
> >>>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
> >>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>> message
> >>>>>
> >>>>> gy
> >>>>> .com
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>>>> message
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>> gy.
> >>>>>>> com ...
> >>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
> >>>>>>>>> in message
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ro
> >>>>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>>>> gy. com
> >>>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ScottW
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
> >>>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
> >>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
> >>>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
> >>>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks
> >>>>>>>> find
> >>>>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through sections of
> >>>>>>>> 3D stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online.
> >>>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had
> >>>>>>>> FAR
> >>>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
> >>>>>>>> stores.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough
> >>>>>>> to keep the business model going.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Obviously.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand
> >>>>>>> why
> >>>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
> >>>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get
> >>>>>>> out of looking at the cases that you can't get
> >>>>>>> on-line and faster and in far
> >>>>>>> wider selections?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
> >>>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower classical
> >>>>>> stores in Hollywood and San Francisco. There you
> >>>>>> would have
> >>>>>> had the ability to browse through, for example, large
> >>>>>> sections of choral music. I read all of the standard
> >>>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> >>>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
> >>>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
> >>>>>> American Choral Directors Association. In spite of
> >>>>>> this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would
> >>>>>> find interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I
> >>>>>> have discovered many works and composers in this
> >>>>>> way. This
> >>>>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several
> >>>>>> genres, composers, etc. How does one do this
> >>>>>> online?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So what caught your eye?
> >>>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
> >>>>
> >>>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know
> >>>> about...
> >>>>> You can search all the above.
> >>>>> I like all music guide
> >>>>> www.allmusic.com
> >>>>> as a good starting point.
> >>>>
> >>>> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
> >>
> >> One taps into the usual flow of press releases, chatter,
> >> and reviews by people who track niches.
> >>
> >>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
> >>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
> >>> and location.
> >>
> >> Not unusual for specialists.
> >>
> >>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your
> >>> hand for you.
> >>
> >> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow of
> >> press releases and reviews, etc.
> >
> > Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
> > "snobbery".
>
> So is that an intentional falsehood or an unintentional falsehood on your
> part, Jenn?

Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.

George M. Middius

October 10th 06, 02:45 AM

paul packer said:

> >The day a Normal acts out one of
> >the Krooborg's wild paranoid fantasies is the day Satan has returned from
> >the netherworld and taken over the human race.

> Ooops, bad analogy.

Why do you say that?

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

paul packer

October 10th 06, 02:50 AM

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:21:27 -0500, dave weil >
wrote:

>Those are fine for as far as it goes. But there's something to be said
>for listening stations, helpful clerks, touch and feel, and sighted
>browsing of actual product. Well, there's the interaction of people
>with people as well. I know one hugely popular band (well, not so much
>in the States) which was begun by its principals meeting in a certain
>section of the Nashville Tower store. Now they can't go to Japan
>without being mobbed.

That's easily fixed. Just don't go to Japan. :-)

[email protected]

October 10th 06, 03:10 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message
>
> > On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:25:18 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> > wrote in message
> >> oups.com
> >>>
> >>> Luckily the evidence of his musical taste was preseved
> >>> on the web:
> >>
> >>> Krueger in May in "Arnold's meltdown"
> >>
> >>
> >>>> There (on the internet..) I can find
> >>>> a wide diversity from places like Aural Moon
> >>>> where in a day I might hear a few classic prog
> >>>> cuts from Crimson but also get to hear stuff
> >>>> I would never find on FM, from artists like
> >>>> Jerry Goodman, Annie Moses, Iona, The Box.
> >>>> Note to Bob, EVDO rev. B was announced as
> >>>> being rolled out next year. Check it out.
> >>
> >>> These are Arny's preferences.
> >>
> >> No way, Jose. The poster of this information was ScottW
> >>
> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/a1fd85b4fca25032
> >>
> >> <snip Mirabel's weird, baseless speculations about my
> >> tastes in music>
> >>
> >
> > He seems to have trouble with quoting (thus his posts
> > where everything appears twice), so maybe he also has
> > trouble with figuring out who said what. :-)
>
> The word "Dyslexia" comes to mind. I hope he never practiced surgery or even
> any other form of medicine on actual humans or animals with any value to
> anybody.

==================================================
Arny gets personal:

> The word "Dyslexia" comes to mind. I hope he never practiced surgery or even
> any other form of medicine on actual humans or animals with any value to
> anybody.

Arny must have dyslexia on his mind. He probably is preparing a plea.
Earlier On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:11:38 GMT, in the "Arny, why don't you"
thread I showed that he falsifies documents. He had the cheek to
accuse me of inventing quotes from the Meitner and D'Agostino
interviews. I showed that I quoted the very same passages from the
Stereophile with number, page and date to him THREE times before.
I challenged him to falsify my assertion or apologise.
He did neither.
Instead he brings up my dyslexia hoping that previous will be
forgotten.
He has no shame.
Ludovic Mirabel

Arny Krueger

October 10th 06, 03:21 AM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>> news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>>
>>>>> .c
>>>>> om...
>>>>>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>>>>>>>> in message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>> gy.
>>>>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>> gy. com
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ScottW
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
>>>>>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
>>>>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more
>>>>>>>>>> about 3D shopping, because of the value of
>>>>>>>>>> browsing. It seems to be a common story that
>>>>>>>>>> classical folks find
>>>>>>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through sections of
>>>>>>>>>> 3D stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>>>>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had
>>>>>>>>>> FAR
>>>>>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
>>>>>>>>>> stores.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't
>>>>>>>>> enough to keep the business model going.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obviously.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand
>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
>>>>>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you
>>>>>>>>> get out of looking at the cases that you can't get
>>>>>>>>> on-line and faster and in far
>>>>>>>>> wider selections?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
>>>>>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower
>>>>>>>> classical stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
>>>>>>>> There you would have
>>>>>>>> had the ability to browse through, for example,
>>>>>>>> large sections of choral music. I read all of the
>>>>>>>> standard recording review magazines each month, as
>>>>>>>> well as specialist professional journals such as
>>>>>>>> (for the present example) the Choral Journal
>>>>>>>> published by the American Choral Directors
>>>>>>>> Association. In spite of this, when browsing the
>>>>>>>> section at Tower, I would find interesting things
>>>>>>>> that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many
>>>>>>>> works and composers in this way. This
>>>>>>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several
>>>>>>>> genres, composers, etc. How does one do this
>>>>>>>> online?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what caught your eye?
>>>>>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know
>>>>>> about...
>>>>>>> You can search all the above.
>>>>>>> I like all music guide
>>>>>>> www.allmusic.com
>>>>>>> as a good starting point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>>>>
>>>> One taps into the usual flow of press releases,
>>>> chatter, and reviews by people who track niches.
>>>>
>>>>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>>>>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>>>>> and location.
>>>>
>>>> Not unusual for specialists.
>>>>
>>>>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in
>>>>> your hand for you.
>>>>
>>>> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow of
>>>> press releases and reviews, etc.
>>>
>>> Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
>>> "snobbery".
>>
>> So is that an intentional falsehood or an unintentional
>> falsehood on your part, Jenn?
>
> Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.

The text "snob" appears above, only as origionated by you, Jenn.

That would make your falsehood intentional, right?

Arny Krueger

October 10th 06, 03:28 AM

> wrote in message
ups.com

> Arny must have dyslexia on his mind. He probably is
> preparing a plea. Earlier On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:11:38
> GMT, in the "Arny, why don't you" thread I showed that he
> falsifies documents.

I can't find any such post.

Jenn

October 10th 06, 03:35 AM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >> message
> >> .
> >> com
> >>> In article
> >>> >, "Arny
> >>> Krueger" > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> >>>> news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
> >>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>> message
> >>>>>
> >>>>> gy
> >>>>> .c
> >>>>> om...
> >>>>>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>>>> message
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>> gy
> >>>>>>> .com
> >>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
> >>>>>>>>> in message
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ro
> >>>>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>>>> gy.
> >>>>>>>>> com ...
> >>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> .p
> >>>>>>>>>>> ro
> >>>>>>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>>>>>> gy. com
> >>>>>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> ScottW
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
> >>>>>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
> >>>>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more
> >>>>>>>>>> about 3D shopping, because of the value of
> >>>>>>>>>> browsing. It seems to be a common story that
> >>>>>>>>>> classical folks find
> >>>>>>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through sections of
> >>>>>>>>>> 3D stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online.
> >>>>>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had
> >>>>>>>>>> FAR
> >>>>>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
> >>>>>>>>>> stores.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't
> >>>>>>>>> enough to keep the business model going.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Obviously.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand
> >>>>>>>>> why
> >>>>>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
> >>>>>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you
> >>>>>>>>> get out of looking at the cases that you can't get
> >>>>>>>>> on-line and faster and in far
> >>>>>>>>> wider selections?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
> >>>>>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower
> >>>>>>>> classical stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
> >>>>>>>> There you would have
> >>>>>>>> had the ability to browse through, for example,
> >>>>>>>> large sections of choral music. I read all of the
> >>>>>>>> standard recording review magazines each month, as
> >>>>>>>> well as specialist professional journals such as
> >>>>>>>> (for the present example) the Choral Journal
> >>>>>>>> published by the American Choral Directors
> >>>>>>>> Association. In spite of this, when browsing the
> >>>>>>>> section at Tower, I would find interesting things
> >>>>>>>> that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many
> >>>>>>>> works and composers in this way. This
> >>>>>>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several
> >>>>>>>> genres, composers, etc. How does one do this
> >>>>>>>> online?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So what caught your eye?
> >>>>>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know
> >>>>>> about...
> >>>>>>> You can search all the above.
> >>>>>>> I like all music guide
> >>>>>>> www.allmusic.com
> >>>>>>> as a good starting point.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
> >>>>
> >>>> One taps into the usual flow of press releases,
> >>>> chatter, and reviews by people who track niches.
> >>>>
> >>>>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
> >>>>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
> >>>>> and location.
> >>>>
> >>>> Not unusual for specialists.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in
> >>>>> your hand for you.
> >>>>
> >>>> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow of
> >>>> press releases and reviews, etc.
> >>>
> >>> Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
> >>> "snobbery".
> >>
> >> So is that an intentional falsehood or an unintentional
> >> falsehood on your part, Jenn?
> >
> > Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.
>
> The text "snob" appears above, only as origionated by you, Jenn.
>
> That would make your falsehood intentional, right?

Mon, Oct 9 2006 4:19*am
Jenn: I read all of the standard
recording review magazines each month, as well as
specialist professional journals such as (for the present
example) the Choral Journal published by the American
Choral Directors Association.

Arny: More snobbery.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

October 10th 06, 05:23 AM

George M. Middius wrote:
> dizzy said:
>
> > >Although using 'emotionally' would narrow it down to probably one.;-(
>
> > Yep. Arny should have had his **** together before making the "lying"
> > accusation.
>
> In what universe is "emotionally moving" any different in meaning from
> "moving"?

You also changed 'compositions' and 'pieces.'

How the hell is anybody supposed to search for a Pachelbel quote with
egregious errors like that?

Anyway, Arny might think 'moving' refers to UHaul, or perhaps to his
bowels. He might think that 'emotionally moving' refers to a musical
experience, or perhaps to his bowels.

So I can easily see why confusion set in. It was, at best, 50/50.

dave weil

October 10th 06, 05:28 AM

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 01:50:46 GMT, (paul packer)
wrote:

>On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:21:27 -0500, dave weil >
>wrote:
>
>
>>Those are fine for as far as it goes. But there's something to be said
>>for listening stations, helpful clerks, touch and feel, and sighted
>>browsing of actual product. Well, there's the interaction of people
>>with people as well. I know one hugely popular band (well, not so much
>>in the States) which was begun by its principals meeting in a certain
>>section of the Nashville Tower store. Now they can't go to Japan
>>without being mobbed.
>
>
>That's easily fixed. Just don't go to Japan. :-)

I didn't say mugged.

dave weil

October 10th 06, 05:30 AM

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 02:35:59 GMT, Jenn
> wrote:

>> >>> Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
>> >>> "snobbery".
>> >>
>> >> So is that an intentional falsehood or an unintentional
>> >> falsehood on your part, Jenn?
>> >
>> > Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.
>>
>> The text "snob" appears above, only as origionated by you, Jenn.
>>
>> That would make your falsehood intentional, right?
>
>
>Mon, Oct 9 2006 4:19*am
>Jenn: I read all of the standard
> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> specialist professional journals such as (for the present
> example) the Choral Journal published by the American
> Choral Directors Association.
>
>Arny: More snobbery.

Damn, that was too easy, even when it comes to Arnold.

[email protected]

October 10th 06, 07:16 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com
>
> > Arny must have dyslexia on his mind. He probably is
> > preparing a plea. Earlier On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:11:38
> > GMT, in the "Arny, why don't you" thread I showed that he
> > falsifies documents.
>
> I can't find any such post.
======================================
Arny the dyslexic has problems. But as you will see below I promised to
oblige so here comes a copy of copies to refresh his mind: (Last one
on Sept. 30th in the thread that is still running . The one he can't
find.)

"A few days ago I felt like many sooner or later come to feel
about discussions with Arny the Indefatigable. " Oh, what the hell?
What is the point?" One can't help deciding that he is either
intellectually dishonest.to an nth degree or so paranoid that he feels
he is always under attack by malignant forces and so entitled to use
any weapon, however disgusting, to protect himself.
But now I'm encouraged by a man who shares his audio viewpoint,,
Eeyore, trying to talk sense to him.
So I'm transferring the argument from some 500 messages ago in the "
Kroobotgs feeble assault..." thread to here: The discussion was about
analogue vs. digital. I said:

>"I quoted to you repeatedly what D'Agostino of Krell,... ...

He interrupts :
"IMO, a well known technical charlatan with a good grasp of marketing
sizzle".
.....> Meitner of Bryston and-Museatex...
Krueger: "See above".
..... >and Stuart of Meridian
Krueger:interjects "A well-known advocate of digital audio".

> had to say about one of your articles of faith; superiority of all digital to >all analogue.

Krueger:
"Say what? That's just one more example of dozens, of your abilities to

substitute fantasy for reality, Ludo.
Got any more fairy tales to tell?

I said:
> They said it publicly where anyone can read it.

Krueger:
"No links provided - good proof that Ludo is making this up as he goes
along."

He, Krueger, is calling *me* a liar!

Now note this: On August 26th '05 -*yes August 2005*- in the "A note
for Mikey" thread in RAO I quoted to our Krueger what I had said to him

once before in the RAHE in 2003.

>.. D.Agostino says:, (The Stereophile, Dec.2003,p.78:

D'Agostino:"With DVD-audio and SACD, I think there is a
possibility of equaling vinyl"
Lander: You're not in the turntable business, and you do offer CD
players, but you've said that you *prefer vinyl to the CD*.
D'Agostino: *I still think vinyl is better*, but with the two formats
we're dealing with now, DVD-Audio and SACD, I think there's a
possibility of equaling vinyl-as soon as we decide not to stick with
our old methods of recording. I think we have to go back to the drawing

board as far as how we record SACDs, because I don't think their
potential has been realized.

Note!: just *a possibility*! .And with
SACD! Did not the RAO scientists + Krueger *prove* that SACD is no
better than CD while LP is infinitely worse.

Note!: D'Agostino designs highly respected *transistor* equipment
exclusively. No tubes , no TTs, no vinyl. But our Arny of RAO fame sees

fit to dismiss him as "technical charlatan" and me as a liar.
Not even paranoia justifies this.

Now for another one of Arny's "technical charlatans" high-end designer
Meitner. This one goes back to 2001, Dec 14. Yes, 2001!!.

In "Digital is bad for you" thread in RAHE I quoted to Arny from
Meitner interview in the." Positive feedback " 0802, 2001. Meitner
interviewed by Pappas said: :

"And if listening to music was considered as relaxation and was
supposed to be a way to relieve stress, then PCM, like CD playback,
certainly doesn't do it as well as some of the old analogue stuff
did."
" For sound quality, here's one simple test. I'm doing some
transfers of vinyl LPs onto DSD. And, you know, in DSD this is a
conversion with a minimal amount of damage to the original sound. If
you consider playing back vinyl and liking all the good things about
it, now we can have it in DSD format. We could possibly take some of
the clicks and pops out of it and still have the general good flavor
preserved. The same holds true for analogue tapes and any kind of
conversion"

That was in 2001. and 2005

In July of this year 2006 :in "Have we got the wrong end..." July
7 I said:to Arny:

"It was not the first time I quoted D'Agostino to Arny either...
It turns out that Arny CAN read. He needs only five repeats to absorb
Agostino's name and.throw it back at me shouting hurrah.
I made his day because I said Krell instead of "D'Agostino's Krell".
Well. let's have it again: D'Agostino's Krell, D'Agostino's Krell,
D'Agostino's Krell. Eeny, meenie, miny Arny.
And now that we've played children' games how about demonstrating one
is not a schoolyard dunce after all and addressing our powerful mind to

the task at hand:

1) Did those two designers ( with many other authorities, not of the
RAO tribe) say that digital has not as yet caught up with analogue
rendition of music or did they not?

2) When will we see that one reference to a professional journal (Name,

year, authors, title, page) that accepted and published the results of
Arny Krueger's research into anything audio: ABX, superiority of
digital, anything, anything at all."
This is the man who dares to talk of my "fairy tales"

Should I repeat all this to him more frequently? Every year? Every
six months? Whatever he may want. I'll oblige. "
End of requote
Ludovic Mirabel

Dyslexia or inveterate, incurable mendacity?

George M. Middius

October 10th 06, 10:00 AM

Shhhh! said:

> > > >Although using 'emotionally' would narrow it down to probably one.;-(

> > > Yep. Arny should have had his **** together before making the "lying"
> > > accusation.

> > In what universe is "emotionally moving" any different in meaning from
> > "moving"?

> You also changed 'compositions' and 'pieces.'

I anticipated Krooger's well-known ineptitude with search engines.

> How the hell is anybody supposed to search for a Pachelbel quote with
> egregious errors like that?

Oddly, Mr. **** spelled Pachelbel correctly in his original post.

> Anyway, Arny might think 'moving' refers to UHaul, or perhaps to his
> bowels. He might think that 'emotionally moving' refers to a musical
> experience, or perhaps to his bowels.
>
> So I can easily see why confusion set in. It was, at best, 50/50.

Yes, the pitfalls of Kroologic are many and treacherous.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

paul packer

October 10th 06, 11:19 AM

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 21:45:54 -0400, George M. Middius <cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote:

>
>
>paul packer said:
>
>> >The day a Normal acts out one of
>> >the Krooborg's wild paranoid fantasies is the day Satan has returned from
>> >the netherworld and taken over the human race.
>
>> Ooops, bad analogy.
>
>Why do you say that?

Because I think he's already on the march.

paul packer

October 10th 06, 11:23 AM

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 01:33:13 GMT, Jenn
> wrote:

>> So is that an intentional falsehood or an unintentional falsehood on your
>> part, Jenn?
>
>Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.

Correct use of semi-colon noted. You must be an elitist snob, Jenn.

Arny Krueger

October 10th 06, 12:31 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> .
>>>> com
>>>>> In article
>>>>> >, "Arny
>>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>>>> news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>> .c
>>>>>>> om...
>>>>>>>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>>>>>>>> in message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>> gy.
>>>>>>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .p
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gy. com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ScottW
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care
>>>>>>>>>>>> the most about the closing will be classical
>>>>>>>>>>>> buyers: A. I believe that classical buyers
>>>>>>>>>>>> care more about 3D shopping, because of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> value of browsing. It seems to be a common
>>>>>>>>>>>> story that classical folks find
>>>>>>>>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through sections
>>>>>>>>>>>> of 3D stores. This is not nearly as fruitful
>>>>>>>>>>>> online. B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF
>>>>>>>>>>>> and LA had FAR
>>>>>>>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
>>>>>>>>>>>> stores.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't
>>>>>>>>>>> enough to keep the business model going.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Obviously.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> understand why
>>>>>>>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
>>>>>>>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you
>>>>>>>>>>> get out of looking at the cases that you can't
>>>>>>>>>>> get on-line and faster and in far
>>>>>>>>>>> wider selections?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post
>>>>>>>>>> by Arny: You probably never visited the Tower
>>>>>>>>>> classical stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
>>>>>>>>>> There you would have
>>>>>>>>>> had the ability to browse through, for example,
>>>>>>>>>> large sections of choral music. I read all of
>>>>>>>>>> the standard recording review magazines each
>>>>>>>>>> month, as well as specialist professional
>>>>>>>>>> journals such as (for the present example) the
>>>>>>>>>> Choral Journal published by the American Choral
>>>>>>>>>> Directors Association. In spite of this, when
>>>>>>>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>>>>>>>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I
>>>>>>>>>> have discovered many works and composers in this
>>>>>>>>>> way. This
>>>>>>>>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several
>>>>>>>>>> genres, composers, etc. How does one do this
>>>>>>>>>> online?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So what caught your eye?
>>>>>>>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know
>>>>>>>> about...
>>>>>>>>> You can search all the above.
>>>>>>>>> I like all music guide
>>>>>>>>> www.allmusic.com
>>>>>>>>> as a good starting point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One taps into the usual flow of press releases,
>>>>>> chatter, and reviews by people who track niches.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>>>>>>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>>>>>>> and location.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not unusual for specialists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in
>>>>>>> your hand for you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow of
>>>>>> press releases and reviews, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
>>>>> "snobbery".
>>>>
>>>> So is that an intentional falsehood or an unintentional
>>>> falsehood on your part, Jenn?
>>>
>>> Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.
>>
>> The text "snob" appears above, only as origionated by
>> you, Jenn.

>> That would make your falsehood intentional, right?

> Mon, Oct 9 2006 4:19 am
> Jenn: I read all of the standard
> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> specialist professional journals such as (for the present
> example) the Choral Journal published by the American
> Choral Directors Association.

> Arny: More snobbery.

Based on name-dropping and gratuitous self-praise in the form of phrases
like "specialist professional journals".

Not the same thing at all as innocently reading press releases. We'll chalk
that up as being yet another Jenn lie.

Arny Krueger

October 10th 06, 12:33 PM

> wrote in message
ups.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com
>>
>>> Arny must have dyslexia on his mind. He probably is
>>> preparing a plea. Earlier On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:11:38
>>> GMT, in the "Arny, why don't you" thread I showed that
>>> he falsifies documents.
>>
>> I can't find any such post.
> ======================================
> Arny the dyslexic has problems. But as you will see below
> I promised to oblige so here comes a copy of copies to
> refresh his mind: (Last one on Sept. 30th in the thread
> that is still running . The one he can't find.)
>
> "A few days ago I felt like many sooner or later come to
> feel
> about discussions with Arny the Indefatigable. " Oh, what
> the hell? What is the point?" One can't help deciding
> that he is either intellectually dishonest.to an nth
> degree or so paranoid that he feels he is always under
> attack by malignant forces and so entitled to use any
> weapon, however disgusting, to protect himself.
> But now I'm encouraged by a man who shares his audio
> viewpoint,, Eeyore, trying to talk sense to him.
> So I'm transferring the argument from some 500 messages
> ago in the " Kroobotgs feeble assault..." thread to here:
> The discussion was about analogue vs. digital. I said:
>
>> "I quoted to you repeatedly what D'Agostino of Krell,...
>> ...
>
>
> He interrupts :
> "IMO, a well known technical charlatan with a good grasp
> of marketing sizzle".
> ....> Meitner of Bryston and-Museatex...
> Krueger: "See above".
> .... >and Stuart of Meridian
> Krueger:interjects "A well-known advocate of digital
> audio".
>
>
>> had to say about one of your articles of faith;
>> superiority of all digital to >all analogue.
>
>
> Krueger:
> "Say what? That's just one more example of dozens, of
> your abilities to
>
> substitute fantasy for reality, Ludo.
> Got any more fairy tales to tell?
>
> I said:
>> They said it publicly where anyone can read it.
>
>
> Krueger:
> "No links provided - good proof that Ludo is making this
> up as he goes along."
>
> He, Krueger, is calling *me* a liar!
>
> Now note this: On August 26th '05 -*yes August 2005*- in
> the "A note for Mikey" thread in RAO I quoted to our
> Krueger what I had said to him
>
> once before in the RAHE in 2003.
>
>
>> .. D.Agostino says:, (The Stereophile, Dec.2003,p.78:
>
> D'Agostino:"With DVD-audio and SACD, I think there is a
> possibility of equaling vinyl"
> Lander: You're not in the turntable business, and you do
> offer CD players, but you've said that you *prefer vinyl
> to the CD*. D'Agostino: *I still think vinyl is better*,
> but with the two formats we're dealing with now,
> DVD-Audio and SACD, I think there's a possibility of
> equaling vinyl-as soon as we decide not to stick with our
> old methods of recording. I think we have to go back to
> the drawing
>
> board as far as how we record SACDs, because I don't
> think their potential has been realized.
>
> Note!: just *a possibility*! .And with
> SACD! Did not the RAO scientists + Krueger *prove* that
> SACD is no better than CD while LP is infinitely worse.
>
> Note!: D'Agostino designs highly respected *transistor*
> equipment exclusively. No tubes , no TTs, no vinyl. But
> our Arny of RAO fame sees
>
> fit to dismiss him as "technical charlatan" and me as a
> liar.
> Not even paranoia justifies this.
>
> Now for another one of Arny's "technical charlatans"
> high-end designer Meitner. This one goes back to 2001,
> Dec 14. Yes, 2001!!.
>
> In "Digital is bad for you" thread in RAHE I quoted to
> Arny from Meitner interview in the." Positive feedback "
> 0802, 2001. Meitner interviewed by Pappas said: :
>
> "And if listening to music was considered as relaxation
> and was supposed to be a way to relieve stress, then PCM,
> like CD playback, certainly doesn't do it as well as
> some of the old analogue stuff did."
> " For sound quality, here's one simple test. I'm doing
> some
> transfers of vinyl LPs onto DSD. And, you know, in DSD
> this is a conversion with a minimal amount of damage to
> the original sound. If you consider playing back vinyl
> and liking all the good things about it, now we can have
> it in DSD format. We could possibly take some of the
> clicks and pops out of it and still have the general good
> flavor preserved. The same holds true for analogue tapes
> and any kind of conversion"
>
> That was in 2001. and 2005
>
> In July of this year 2006 :in "Have we got the wrong
> end..." July 7 I said:to Arny:
>
> "It was not the first time I quoted D'Agostino to Arny
> either...
> It turns out that Arny CAN read. He needs only five
> repeats to absorb Agostino's name and.throw it back at me
> shouting hurrah.
> I made his day because I said Krell instead of
> "D'Agostino's Krell". Well. let's have it again:
> D'Agostino's Krell, D'Agostino's Krell, D'Agostino's
> Krell. Eeny, meenie, miny Arny.
> And now that we've played children' games how about
> demonstrating one is not a schoolyard dunce after all and
> addressing our powerful mind to
>
> the task at hand:
>
> 1) Did those two designers ( with many other authorities,
> not of the RAO tribe) say that digital has not as yet
> caught up with analogue rendition of music or did they
> not?
>
> 2) When will we see that one reference to a professional
> journal (Name,
>
> year, authors, title, page) that accepted and published
> the results of Arny Krueger's research into anything
> audio: ABX, superiority of digital, anything, anything at
> all."
> This is the man who dares to talk of my "fairy tales"
>
> Should I repeat all this to him more frequently? Every
> year? Every six months? Whatever he may want. I'll
> oblige. "
> End of requote
> Ludovic Mirabel
>
> Dyslexia or inveterate, incurable mendacity?

Just another mischmasch of ramblings from Ludo, presented as some kind of
weird proof.

dave weil

October 10th 06, 12:54 PM

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 07:31:15 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>>>>>>> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow of
>>>>>>> press releases and reviews, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
>>>>>> "snobbery".
>>>>>
>>>>> So is that an intentional falsehood or an unintentional
>>>>> falsehood on your part, Jenn?
>>>>
>>>> Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.
>>>
>>> The text "snob" appears above, only as origionated by
>>> you, Jenn.
>
>>> That would make your falsehood intentional, right?
>
>> Mon, Oct 9 2006 4:19 am
>> Jenn: I read all of the standard
>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>> specialist professional journals such as (for the present
>> example) the Choral Journal published by the American
>> Choral Directors Association.
>
>> Arny: More snobbery.
>
>Based on name-dropping and gratuitous self-praise in the form of phrases
>like "specialist professional journals".
>
>Not the same thing at all as innocently reading press releases. We'll chalk
>that up as being yet another Jenn lie.

And we'll just chalk this up to more prattering from Arnold in his
underwear.

George M. Middius

October 10th 06, 02:22 PM

paul packer said:

> >> >The day a Normal acts out one of
> >> >the Krooborg's wild paranoid fantasies is the day Satan has returned from
> >> >the netherworld and taken over the human race.

> >> Ooops, bad analogy.

> >Why do you say that?

> Because I think he's already on the march.

You're a weird one, you are.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

George M. Middius

October 10th 06, 02:24 PM

paul packer said:

> >Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.

> Correct use of semi-colon noted. You must be an elitist snob, Jenn.

And how about your correct use of the comma in apposition, paul? What does
that make you?

BTW, the correct spelling is semicolon. The prefix semi-, not being a word
in its own right, never gets the honor of a hyphen.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

George M. Middius

October 10th 06, 02:25 PM

KrazyBorg krapped:

> > Mon, Oct 9 2006 4:19 am
> > Jenn: I read all of the standard
> > recording review magazines each month, as well as
> > specialist professional journals such as (for the present
> > example) the Choral Journal published by the American
> > Choral Directors Association.

> > Arny: More snobbery.

> Based on name-dropping and gratuitous self-praise in the form of phrases
> like "specialist professional journals".

wooooo-oooooo! How insecure are you anyway, Turdy?

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

Bertie the Bunyip

October 10th 06, 03:08 PM

Eeyore > wrote in
:

>
>
> "George M. Middius" wrote:
>
>> Poopie demonstrates his fealty to the grubby-fingered goal of
>> institutionalized stupidity.
>>
>> > > Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:
>>
>> > > "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces of music
>> > > known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."
>>
>> > >
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27
>> > > ec3?hl=en& Now who's the liar?
>>
>> > He didn't say *he* found it "One of the most moving compositions
>> > ever written" did he ?
>>
>> No, apparently not.
>
> Well there you go then ! Case not proven.

Fjukktard Brit asshole.

Bertie

Jenn

October 10th 06, 03:41 PM

Jenn

October 10th 06, 03:41 PM

In article >,
(paul packer) wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 01:33:13 GMT, Jenn
> > wrote:
>
>
> >> So is that an intentional falsehood or an unintentional falsehood on your
> >> part, Jenn?
> >
> >Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.
>
> Correct use of semi-colon noted. You must be an elitist snob, Jenn.

LOL I guess so.

George M. Middius

October 10th 06, 03:52 PM

Arny Krueger

October 10th 06, 04:09 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> .
>>>> com
>>>>> In article
>>>>> >, "Arny
>>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>> message
>>>>>>
>>>>>> y.
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>> >,
>>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>>>>>>>> in message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>>>> .c
>>>>>>>>> om...
>>>>>>>>>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .p
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ws
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .p
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gy. com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ScottW
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most about the closing will be classical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buyers: A. I believe that classical buyers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care more about 3D shopping, because of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of browsing. It seems to be a common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> story that classical folks find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sections of 3D stores. This is not nearly as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fruitful online. B. The Tower Classical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stores.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to keep the business model going.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand why
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can you get out of looking at the cases that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can't get on-line and faster and in far
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wider selections?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post
>>>>>>>>>>>> by Arny: You probably never visited the Tower
>>>>>>>>>>>> classical stores in Hollywood and San
>>>>>>>>>>>> Francisco. There you would have
>>>>>>>>>>>> had the ability to browse through, for example,
>>>>>>>>>>>> large sections of choral music. I read all of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the standard recording review magazines each
>>>>>>>>>>>> month, as well as specialist professional
>>>>>>>>>>>> journals such as (for the present example) the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Choral Journal published by the American Choral
>>>>>>>>>>>> Directors Association. In spite of this, when
>>>>>>>>>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> have discovered many works and composers in
>>>>>>>>>>>> this way. This
>>>>>>>>>>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several
>>>>>>>>>>>> genres, composers, etc. How does one do this
>>>>>>>>>>>> online?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So what caught your eye?
>>>>>>>>>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't
>>>>>>>>>> know about...
>>>>>>>>>>> You can search all the above.
>>>>>>>>>>> I like all music guide
>>>>>>>>>>> www.allmusic.com
>>>>>>>>>>> as a good starting point.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How does one search on what one doesn't know
>>>>>>>>>> about?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One taps into the usual flow of press releases,
>>>>>>>> chatter, and reviews by people who track niches.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>>>>>>>>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>>>>>>>>> and location.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not unusual for specialists.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in
>>>>>>>>> your hand for you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow
>>>>>>>> of press releases and reviews, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
>>>>>>> "snobbery".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So is that an intentional falsehood or an
>>>>>> unintentional falsehood on your part, Jenn?
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.
>>>>
>>>> The text "snob" appears above, only as origionated by
>>>> you, Jenn.
>>
>>>> That would make your falsehood intentional, right?
>>
>>> Mon, Oct 9 2006 4:19 am
>>> Jenn: I read all of the standard
>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
>>> American Choral Directors Association.
>>
>>> Arny: More snobbery.
>>
>> Based on name-dropping and gratuitous self-praise in the
>> form of phrases like "specialist professional journals".
>
> That's not "name-dropping" Arny.

Probably true in Jenn-alternative universe #463.

> Do you know what a professional journal is?

No I don't know what a professional journal is, Jenn. And if you believe
that, you're smoking dope or something like it.

> Is it "name-dropping" when you mention reading the AES journal?

There's a difference between citing a specific article to make a specific
point and posting a laundry list of impressive-sounding names. Just
guessing Jenn, you can't see it.

>> Not the same thing at all as innocently reading press
>> releases. We'll chalk that up as being yet another Jenn
>> lie.

> Thanks for your opinion.

No sarcasm, eh Jenn?

;-)

[email protected]

October 10th 06, 06:14 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
> >> > wrote in message
> >> ups.com
> >>
> >>> Arny must have dyslexia on his mind. He probably is
> >>> preparing a plea. Earlier On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:11:38
> >>> GMT, in the "Arny, why don't you" thread I showed that
> >>> he falsifies documents.
> >>
> >> I can't find any such post.
> > ======================================
> > Arny the dyslexic has problems. But as you will see below
> > I promised to oblige so here comes a copy of copies to
> > refresh his mind: (Last one on Sept. 30th in the thread
> > that is still running . The one he can't find.)
> >
> > "A few days ago I felt like many sooner or later come to
> > feel
> > about discussions with Arny the Indefatigable. " Oh, what
> > the hell? What is the point?" One can't help deciding
> > that he is either intellectually dishonest.to an nth
> > degree or so paranoid that he feels he is always under
> > attack by malignant forces and so entitled to use any
> > weapon, however disgusting, to protect himself.
> > But now I'm encouraged by a man who shares his audio
> > viewpoint,, Eeyore, trying to talk sense to him.
> > So I'm transferring the argument from some 500 messages
> > ago in the " Kroobotgs feeble assault..." thread to here:
> > The discussion was about analogue vs. digital. I said:
> >
> >> "I quoted to you repeatedly what D'Agostino of Krell,...
> >> ...
> >
> >
> > He interrupts :
> > "IMO, a well known technical charlatan with a good grasp
> > of marketing sizzle".
> > ....> Meitner of Bryston and-Museatex...
> > Krueger: "See above".
> > .... >and Stuart of Meridian
> > Krueger:interjects "A well-known advocate of digital
> > audio".
> >
> >
> >> had to say about one of your articles of faith;
> >> superiority of all digital to >all analogue.
> >
> >
> > Krueger:
> > "Say what? That's just one more example of dozens, of
> > your abilities to
> >
> > substitute fantasy for reality, Ludo.
> > Got any more fairy tales to tell?
> >
> > I said:
> >> They said it publicly where anyone can read it.
> >
> >
> > Krueger:
> > "No links provided - good proof that Ludo is making this
> > up as he goes along."
> >
> > He, Krueger, is calling *me* a liar!
> >
> > Now note this: On August 26th '05 -*yes August 2005*- in
> > the "A note for Mikey" thread in RAO I quoted to our
> > Krueger what I had said to him
> >
> > once before in the RAHE in 2003.
> >
> >
> >> .. D.Agostino says:, (The Stereophile, Dec.2003,p.78:
> >
> > D'Agostino:"With DVD-audio and SACD, I think there is a
> > possibility of equaling vinyl"
> > Lander: You're not in the turntable business, and you do
> > offer CD players, but you've said that you *prefer vinyl
> > to the CD*. D'Agostino: *I still think vinyl is better*,
> > but with the two formats we're dealing with now,
> > DVD-Audio and SACD, I think there's a possibility of
> > equaling vinyl-as soon as we decide not to stick with our
> > old methods of recording. I think we have to go back to
> > the drawing
> >
> > board as far as how we record SACDs, because I don't
> > think their potential has been realized.
> >
> > Note!: just *a possibility*! .And with
> > SACD! Did not the RAO scientists + Krueger *prove* that
> > SACD is no better than CD while LP is infinitely worse.
> >
> > Note!: D'Agostino designs highly respected *transistor*
> > equipment exclusively. No tubes , no TTs, no vinyl. But
> > our Arny of RAO fame sees
> >
> > fit to dismiss him as "technical charlatan" and me as a
> > liar.
> > Not even paranoia justifies this.
> >
> > Now for another one of Arny's "technical charlatans"
> > high-end designer Meitner. This one goes back to 2001,
> > Dec 14. Yes, 2001!!.
> >
> > In "Digital is bad for you" thread in RAHE I quoted to
> > Arny from Meitner interview in the." Positive feedback "
> > 0802, 2001. Meitner interviewed by Pappas said: :
> >
> > "And if listening to music was considered as relaxation
> > and was supposed to be a way to relieve stress, then PCM,
> > like CD playback, certainly doesn't do it as well as
> > some of the old analogue stuff did."
> > " For sound quality, here's one simple test. I'm doing
> > some
> > transfers of vinyl LPs onto DSD. And, you know, in DSD
> > this is a conversion with a minimal amount of damage to
> > the original sound. If you consider playing back vinyl
> > and liking all the good things about it, now we can have
> > it in DSD format. We could possibly take some of the
> > clicks and pops out of it and still have the general good
> > flavor preserved. The same holds true for analogue tapes
> > and any kind of conversion"
> >
> > That was in 2001. and 2005
> >
> > In July of this year 2006 :in "Have we got the wrong
> > end..." July 7 I said:to Arny:
> >
> > "It was not the first time I quoted D'Agostino to Arny
> > either...
> > It turns out that Arny CAN read. He needs only five
> > repeats to absorb Agostino's name and.throw it back at me
> > shouting hurrah.
> > I made his day because I said Krell instead of
> > "D'Agostino's Krell". Well. let's have it again:
> > D'Agostino's Krell, D'Agostino's Krell, D'Agostino's
> > Krell. Eeny, meenie, miny Arny.
> > And now that we've played children' games how about
> > demonstrating one is not a schoolyard dunce after all and
> > addressing our powerful mind to
> >
> > the task at hand:
> >
> > 1) Did those two designers ( with many other authorities,
> > not of the RAO tribe) say that digital has not as yet
> > caught up with analogue rendition of music or did they
> > not?
> >
> > 2) When will we see that one reference to a professional
> > journal (Name,
> >
> > year, authors, title, page) that accepted and published
> > the results of Arny Krueger's research into anything
> > audio: ABX, superiority of digital, anything, anything at
> > all."
> > This is the man who dares to talk of my "fairy tales"
> >
> > Should I repeat all this to him more frequently? Every
> > year? Every six months? Whatever he may want. I'll
> > oblige. "
> > End of requote
> > Ludovic Mirabel
> >
> > Dyslexia or inveterate, incurable mendacity?
>
> Just another mischmasch of ramblings from Ludo, presented as some kind of
> weird proof.
=========================================

Krueger was presented with documented evidence of his shameless lying
when short of an answer. To make it clear I repeat Krueger LIES.

And this is his reply:

> Just another mischmasch of ramblings from Ludo, presented as some kind of
> weird proof.

Ludovic Mirabel

Jenn

October 10th 06, 07:16 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >> message
> >> .
> >> com
> >>> In article
> >>> >, "Arny
> >>> Krueger" > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>> message
> >>>>
> >>>> y.
> >>>> com
> >>>>> In article
> >>>>> >, "Arny
> >>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>>> message
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ig
> >>>>>> y.
> >>>>>> com
> >>>>>>> In article
> >>>>>>> >,
> >>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>>> news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
> >>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
> >>>>>>>>> in message
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ro
> >>>>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>>>> gy
> >>>>>>>>> .c
> >>>>>>>>> om...
> >>>>>>>>>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> .p
> >>>>>>>>>>> ro
> >>>>>>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>>>>>> gy
> >>>>>>>>>>> .com
> >>>>>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ws
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> .p
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ro
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> gy.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> com ...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-3A0E3C.10203407102006@newsclstr02.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ne
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ws
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .p
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ro
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gy. com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ScottW
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most about the closing will be classical
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> buyers: A. I believe that classical buyers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> care more about 3D shopping, because of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of browsing. It seems to be a common
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> story that classical folks find
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sections of 3D stores. This is not nearly as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fruitful online. B. The Tower Classical
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stores.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to keep the business model going.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> understand why
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> can you get out of looking at the cases that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you can't get on-line and faster and in far
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wider selections?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post
> >>>>>>>>>>>> by Arny: You probably never visited the Tower
> >>>>>>>>>>>> classical stores in Hollywood and San
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Francisco. There you would have
> >>>>>>>>>>>> had the ability to browse through, for example,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> large sections of choral music. I read all of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the standard recording review magazines each
> >>>>>>>>>>>> month, as well as specialist professional
> >>>>>>>>>>>> journals such as (for the present example) the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Choral Journal published by the American Choral
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Directors Association. In spite of this, when
> >>>>>>>>>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find
> >>>>>>>>>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> have discovered many works and composers in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> this way. This
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several
> >>>>>>>>>>>> genres, composers, etc. How does one do this
> >>>>>>>>>>>> online?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So what caught your eye?
> >>>>>>>>>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't
> >>>>>>>>>> know about...
> >>>>>>>>>>> You can search all the above.
> >>>>>>>>>>> I like all music guide
> >>>>>>>>>>> www.allmusic.com
> >>>>>>>>>>> as a good starting point.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> How does one search on what one doesn't know
> >>>>>>>>>> about?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> One taps into the usual flow of press releases,
> >>>>>>>> chatter, and reviews by people who track niches.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
> >>>>>>>>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
> >>>>>>>>> and location.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Not unusual for specialists.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in
> >>>>>>>>> your hand for you.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow
> >>>>>>>> of press releases and reviews, etc.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
> >>>>>>> "snobbery".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So is that an intentional falsehood or an
> >>>>>> unintentional falsehood on your part, Jenn?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.
> >>>>
> >>>> The text "snob" appears above, only as origionated by
> >>>> you, Jenn.
> >>
> >>>> That would make your falsehood intentional, right?
> >>
> >>> Mon, Oct 9 2006 4:19 am
> >>> Jenn: I read all of the standard
> >>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> >>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
> >>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
> >>> American Choral Directors Association.
> >>
> >>> Arny: More snobbery.
> >>
> >> Based on name-dropping and gratuitous self-praise in the
> >> form of phrases like "specialist professional journals".
> >
> > That's not "name-dropping" Arny.
>
> Probably true in Jenn-alternative universe #463.

No, true in everyone's world, Arny. I read about CD releases in
professional journals. Why do you have to try to turn a normal
professional activity into something negative?

>
> > Do you know what a professional journal is?
>
> No I don't know what a professional journal is, Jenn. And if you believe
> that, you're smoking dope or something like it.
>
> > Is it "name-dropping" when you mention reading the AES journal?
>
> There's a difference between citing a specific article to make a specific
> point and posting a laundry list of impressive-sounding names. Just
> guessing Jenn, you can't see it.

Naming ONE professional journal is "posting a laundry list of
impressive-sounding names"? Forgive me for saying so, but I find your
conclusion odd.

>
> >> Not the same thing at all as innocently reading press
> >> releases. We'll chalk that up as being yet another Jenn
> >> lie.

If that makes you happy, go ahead.

>
> > Thanks for your opinion.
>
> No sarcasm, eh Jenn?
>
> ;-)

Nope.

dave weil

October 10th 06, 09:14 PM

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:16:47 GMT, Jenn
> wrote:

>> >> Not the same thing at all as innocently reading press
>> >> releases. We'll chalk that up as being yet another Jenn
>> >> lie.
>
>If that makes you happy, go ahead.
>
>>
>> > Thanks for your opinion.
>>
>> No sarcasm, eh Jenn?
>>
>> ;-)
>
>Nope.

You're wrong. Plenty of sarcasm in Arnold's reply.

Harry Lavo

October 10th 06, 09:32 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
>> In article >,
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>
>>> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> In article
>>>> >, "Arny
>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>> .
>>>>> com
>>>>>
>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>>
>>>> Normal humans have feelings about places they used to
>>>> enjoy visiting.
>>>
>>> Meaning exactly what, in this case?
>>
>> That the closing of Tower could be sad for people who
>> often visited the place in its glory days of deep
>> catalog, imports and frequent sales.
>
> But they aren't normal humans.
>
>> The classical rooms
>> and annex stores were virtual oases in the days before
>> online and mail-order.
>
> That was then, this is now.
>
>> DG/London/Philips for $5.99 could make my day.
>
> Irrelevant.
>

Let it never be said that Arny misses a chance to belittle the feelings or
choices of others. Even if it involves an issue of no relevance to his main
interests.

Harry Lavo

October 10th 06, 09:33 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
>> In article >,
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>
>>> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> In article
>>>> >, "Arny
>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "MiNe 109" > wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article
>>>>>> >, "Arny
>>>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> y.
>>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to
>>>>>>> offer that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Normal humans have feelings about places they used to
>>>>>> enjoy visiting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meaning exactly what, in this case?
>>>>
>>>> That the closing of Tower could be sad for people who
>>>> often visited the place in its glory days of deep
>>>> catalog, imports and frequent sales.
>
>>> But they aren't normal humans.
>
>> They're a subset of normal humans exhibiting a normal
>> trait.
>
> What, being obsessive?
>
>>>> The classical rooms
>>>> and annex stores were virtual oases in the days before
>>>> online and mail-order.
>>>
>>> That was then, this is now.
>>>
>>>> DG/London/Philips for $5.99 could make my day.
>>>
>>> Irrelevant.
>
>> It's on-topic.
>
> Says you.
>
>> Anyone else learn about classical music
>> label affiliations from Tower sales?
>
> Pathetic.

Yes, you are, Arny!

Harry Lavo

October 10th 06, 09:40 PM

"Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:54:05 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
>>"George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
>>[dot] net> wrote in message

>>> Turdborg lied:
>>>
>>>>>> The Beast once revealed that he finds Pachelbel's Canon
>>>>>> "one of the most moving compositions ever written".
>>>>>> Others disagreed, as is their right.
>>>
>>>> BTW, as usual, Middius is lying. I never said that
>>>> Pachelbel's Canon is "One of the most moving
>>>> compositions ever written".
>>>
>>> Here's the exact quote from your own mouth, Arnii:
>>>
>>> "... one of the all-time most emotionally moving pieces
>>> of music known to man - Pachelbel's "Canon"."
>>>
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/5b85f9590cd27ec3?hl=en&
>>>
>>> Now who's the liar?
>>
>>You are the deceiver, Middius. You left out a word - "emotionally", no
>>doubt
>>intentially. You obviously knewi that I'd search for the exact text you
>>posted, and post what I posted when I failed to find it.
>>
>
> Aren't you giving Middius too much credit here? I'm not sure he's that
> smart.
>

Actually, Arny was just applying his own debating trade tactics, and
assuming Middius must have done the same.

Harry Lavo

October 10th 06, 10:00 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
>> In article >,
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>
>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>>
>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>
>>> Only for people who thought Tower had anything to offer
>>> that couldn't be bettered elsewhere.
>>
>> The reason that I mourn the passing of Tower is that it
>> means that the ability to browse is lessened.
>
> Inability to effectively operate a web browser noted. Most normal people
> found that to be a superior alternative.
>

Oh shut up!

>> You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
>> Hollywood and San Francisco.
>
> No, but I did visit several Tower stores in Manhanttan, including Lincoln
> Center and Villiage.

Better than actually listening to that awful high-end gear at the show, eh
Arny?

>> There you would have had
>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
>> sections of choral music.
>
> So what? A person can no doubt browse through far more choral music on the
> web.

Arny loves the we-eb! Arny loves the we-eb!

>> I read all of the standard
>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>> specialist professional journals such as (for the present
>> example) the Choral Journal published by the American
>> Choral Directors Association. In spite of this, when
>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting
>> things that I hadn't heard of.
>
> You can't do that on the web?

Arny, anybody ever point out to you that "browsing" on the web is different
than "searching" on the web? Ever hear of serindipity?

>
>> I have discovered many
>> works and composers in this way. This is just one
>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
>> etc.
>
> Name a work, genre, and/or composer that can't be found on the web.

Are you dense? Or just obtuse?

>
>> How does one do this online?
>
> Start out with a good search engine, and go from there.

I gues it doesn't matter. Choose one.

Harry Lavo

October 10th 06, 10:08 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>
>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>> ...
>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>> .
>>>>> com ...
>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>
> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated, inefficient, poor-service
> business model.
>
>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>
> Agreed.
>
>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most
>>>> about the closing will be classical buyers:
>
>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
>>>> shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems
>>>> to be a common story that classical folks find so many
>>>> treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
>>>> This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>
> I've always found online browsing to be far more fruitful than browsing
> through record bins.
>
>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>
> No physical store has the inventory that is available and browsable on the
> web.
>
>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to
>>> keep the business model going.
>
> Most consumers found their business model to be other than what they
> wanted.
>
>> Obviously.
>
>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line
>>> catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get out of
>>> looking at the cases
>>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider
>>> selections?
>
> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't about the music.
>
>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
>> You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
>> Hollywood and San Francisco.
>
> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't appreciate it because you
> aren't as cosmopolitan as I am" approach.
>
>> There you would have had
>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
>> sections of choral music.
>
> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
>
>>I read all of the standard
>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>> specialist professional journals such as (for the present
>> example) the Choral Journal published by the American
>> Choral Directors Association.
>
> More snobbery.
>
>> In spite of this, when
>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting
>> things that I hadn't heard of.
>
> Inability to browse the web noted.
>
>> I have discovered many
>> works and composers in this way.
>
> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on the web.
>
>> This is just one
>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
>> etc.
>
> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
>
>> How does one do this online?
>
> Start out by learning how to spell google.
>
>>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop shops
>>> who weren't interested in what the record companies
>>> wanted promoted or moved
>>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it did to
>>> pop music culture over the last couple of decades.
>
> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the power to undo.
>
>>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a display of
>>> talent
>>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by the
>>> likes of
>>> MTV and Chain record stores.
>
> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That makes every Tower store
> a chain store.
>
>> I would agree.
>
> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!

Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I think that explains
this uplifting return to the web.

Harry Lavo

October 10th 06, 10:19 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in message
...
> In article <5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08>,
> "ScottW" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>> > In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
>> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> >> .
>> >> com
>> >> ...
>> >> > In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> >> >>
>> >> >> gy.
>> >> >> com
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >> > In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>> >> >> > "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> "Jenn" > wrote in message
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> odi
>> >> >> >> gy.
>> >> >> >> com
>> >> >> >> ...
>> >> >> >> > Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>> >> >> >> I shall not mourn.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ScottW
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most about the
>> >> >> > closing
>> >> >> > will be classical buyers:
>> >> >> > A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D shopping,
>> >> >> > because
>> >> >> > of the value of browsing. It seems to be a common story that
>> >> >> > classical
>> >> >> > folks find so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D
>> >> >> > stores.
>> >> >> > This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>> >> >> > B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR more stock
>> >> >> > than
>> >> >> > does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to keep the
>> >> >> business
>> >> >> model going.
>> >> >
>> >> > Obviously.
>> >> >
>> >> >> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
>> >> >> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line catalogs
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> MP3 samples? What can you get out of looking at the cases
>> >> >> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider selections?
>> >> >
>> >> > Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
>> >> > You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in Hollywood
>> >> > and
>> >> > San Francisco. There you would have had the ability to browse
>> >> > through,
>> >> > for example, large sections of choral music. I read all of the
>> >> > standard
>> >> > recording review magazines each month, as well as specialist
>> >> > professional journals such as (for the present example) the Choral
>> >> > Journal published by the American Choral Directors Association. In
>> >> > spite of this, when browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>> >> > interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered many
>> >> > works
>> >> > and composers in this way. This is just one example. Multiply this
>> >> > by
>> >> > several genres, composers, etc.
>> >> >
>> >> > How does one do this online?
>> >>
>> >> So what caught your eye?
>> >> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>> >
>> > Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know about...
>> >
>> >> You can search all the above.
>> >> I like all music guide
>> >> www.allmusic.com
>> >> as a good starting point.
>> >
>> > How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>>
>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>> and location.
>
> Of course!
>

The professional musicians I know are among the most adventurous of music
buyers...they might stumble across an obscure composer they heard about long
ago...and decide to buy. Or find a little-recorded piece that they happen
to be interested in....in which case, the artist hardly matters.

I would suggest that sophisticated classical music listeners are not that
far removed from similar behavior.

<snip>

Harry Lavo

October 10th 06, 10:20 PM

"Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:35:34 +0100, Eeyore
> > wrote:
>
>>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>>> and location.
>>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in your hand
>>> for you.
>>
>>Well...... I can't speak for classical but when I managed to sneak a
>>preview of
>>Real's online music thingy they were trialing a couple of years back, they
>>had a neat
>>feature that suggested music you might like to listen to based on your
>>listening
>>history.
>>
>
> I've seen this at a lot of online places. Both suggesting based on
> what yov're bought in the past, and suggesting what others who have
> bought similar things to you have also bought.
>
> That can be quite useful, indeed.
>
> I think yourmusic.com even suggests other items based on what you just
> searched for.

Useful for major releases, perhaps, but not likely to turn up the really
obscure stuff (even if they have it).

Harry Lavo

October 10th 06, 10:27 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> >> message
>> >> .
>> >> com
>> >>> In article
>> >>> >, "Arny
>> >>> Krueger" > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> >>>> message
>> >>>>
>> >>>> y.
>> >>>> com
>> >>>>> In article
>> >>>>> >, "Arny
>> >>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>> >>>>>> news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
>> >>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> >>>>>>> message
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> di
>> >>>>>>> gy
>> >>>>>>> .c
>> >>>>>>> om...
>> >>>>>>>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
>> >>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>> >>>>>>>>> in message
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> ro
>> >>>>>>>>> di
>> >>>>>>>>> gy
>> >>>>>>>>> .com
>> >>>>>>>>> ...
>> >>>>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>> >>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> .p
>> >>>>>>>>>>> ro
>> >>>>>>>>>>> di
>> >>>>>>>>>>> gy.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> com ...
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ws
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> .p
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> di
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> gy. com
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ScottW
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the most about the closing will be classical
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> buyers: A. I believe that classical buyers
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> care more about 3D shopping, because of the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> value of browsing. It seems to be a common
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> story that classical folks find
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through sections
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of 3D stores. This is not nearly as fruitful
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> online. B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and LA had FAR
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> stores.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't
>> >>>>>>>>>>> enough to keep the business model going.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Obviously.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't
>> >>>>>>>>>>> understand why
>> >>>>>>>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you
>> >>>>>>>>>>> get out of looking at the cases that you can't
>> >>>>>>>>>>> get on-line and faster and in far
>> >>>>>>>>>>> wider selections?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post
>> >>>>>>>>>> by Arny: You probably never visited the Tower
>> >>>>>>>>>> classical stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
>> >>>>>>>>>> There you would have
>> >>>>>>>>>> had the ability to browse through, for example,
>> >>>>>>>>>> large sections of choral music. I read all of
>> >>>>>>>>>> the standard recording review magazines each
>> >>>>>>>>>> month, as well as specialist professional
>> >>>>>>>>>> journals such as (for the present example) the
>> >>>>>>>>>> Choral Journal published by the American Choral
>> >>>>>>>>>> Directors Association. In spite of this, when
>> >>>>>>>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>> >>>>>>>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of. I
>> >>>>>>>>>> have discovered many works and composers in this
>> >>>>>>>>>> way. This
>> >>>>>>>>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several
>> >>>>>>>>>> genres, composers, etc. How does one do this
>> >>>>>>>>>> online?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> So what caught your eye?
>> >>>>>>>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't know
>> >>>>>>>> about...
>> >>>>>>>>> You can search all the above.
>> >>>>>>>>> I like all music guide
>> >>>>>>>>> www.allmusic.com
>> >>>>>>>>> as a good starting point.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> How does one search on what one doesn't know about?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> One taps into the usual flow of press releases,
>> >>>>>> chatter, and reviews by people who track niches.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>> >>>>>>> with unknown composer, work, conductor, orchestra,
>> >>>>>>> and location.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Not unusual for specialists.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it in
>> >>>>>>> your hand for you.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow of
>> >>>>>> press releases and reviews, etc.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
>> >>>>> "snobbery".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So is that an intentional falsehood or an unintentional
>> >>>> falsehood on your part, Jenn?
>> >>>
>> >>> Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.
>> >>
>> >> The text "snob" appears above, only as origionated by
>> >> you, Jenn.
>>
>> >> That would make your falsehood intentional, right?
>>
>> > Mon, Oct 9 2006 4:19 am
>> > Jenn: I read all of the standard
>> > recording review magazines each month, as well as
>> > specialist professional journals such as (for the present
>> > example) the Choral Journal published by the American
>> > Choral Directors Association.
>>
>> > Arny: More snobbery.
>>
>> Based on name-dropping and gratuitous self-praise in the form of phrases
>> like "specialist professional journals".
>
> That's not "name-dropping" Arny. Do you know what a professional
> journal is? Is it "name-dropping" when you mention reading the AES
> journal?
>
>>
>> Not the same thing at all as innocently reading press releases. We'll
>> chalk
>> that up as being yet another Jenn lie.
>
> Thanks for your opinion.

I take my previous post back. I think Arny dropped his whole *bag* of
obnoxious pills *into* his bag of trail mix before he set out. Judging by
his posts, he must have averaged six of those pills a day.

Arny Krueger

October 10th 06, 11:18 PM

"Harry Lavo" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>
>> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated, inefficient,
>> poor-service business model.
>>
>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most
>>>>> about the closing will be classical buyers:
>>
>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
>>>>> shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems
>>>>> to be a common story that classical folks find so many
>>>>> treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
>>>>> This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>
>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
>>
>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>>
>> No physical store has the inventory that is available
>> and browsable on the web.
>>
>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to
>>>> keep the business model going.
>>
>> Most consumers found their business model to be other
>> than what they wanted.
>>
>>> Obviously.
>>
>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line
>>>> catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get out of
>>>> looking at the cases
>>>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider
>>>> selections?
>>
>> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't about
>> the music.
>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
>>> You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
>>> Hollywood and San Francisco.
>>
>> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't appreciate
>> it because you aren't as cosmopolitan as I am" approach.
>>
>>> There you would have had
>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
>>> sections of choral music.
>>
>> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
>>
>>> I read all of the standard
>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
>>> American Choral Directors Association.
>>
>> More snobbery.
>>
>>> In spite of this, when
>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting
>>> things that I hadn't heard of.
>>
>> Inability to browse the web noted.
>>
>>> I have discovered many
>>> works and composers in this way.
>>
>> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on the
>> web.
>>> This is just one
>>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
>>> etc.
>>
>> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
>>
>>> How does one do this online?
>>
>> Start out by learning how to spell google.
>>
>>>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop
>>>> shops who weren't interested in what the record
>>>> companies wanted promoted or moved
>>>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it did
>>>> to pop music culture over the last couple of decades.
>>
>> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the power
>> to undo.
>>>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a display
>>>> of talent
>>>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by the
>>>> likes of
>>>> MTV and Chain record stores.
>>
>> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That makes
>> every Tower store a chain store.
>>
>>> I would agree.
>>
>> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!
>
> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix.

Trail mix? How 60s!

> I think that explains this uplifting return to the web.

It was all about climbing ridges and looking at beautiful scenery.

Arny Krueger

October 10th 06, 11:20 PM

"Harry Lavo" > wrote in message

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
> ...
>> In article
>> >, "Arny
>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>>> In article
>>>> >, "Arny
>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>> .
>>>>> com
>>>>>> In article
>>>>>> >, "Arny
>>>>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> y.
>>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>> >,
>>>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:5PuWg.2537$fl.1975@dukeread08
>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>>>>> .c
>>>>>>>>>> om...
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <NpuWg.2530$fl.1958@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .p
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ws
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .p
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gy. com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ScottW
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care the most about the closing will be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> classical buyers: A. I believe that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> classical buyers care more about 3D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shopping, because of the value of browsing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to be a common story that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> classical folks find so many treasures by browsing through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sections of 3D stores. This is not nearly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as fruitful online. B. The Tower Classical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Virgin stores.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to keep the business model going.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can you get out of looking at the cases that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can't get on-line and faster and in far
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wider selections?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> post by Arny: You probably never visited the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tower classical stores in Hollywood and San
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Francisco. There you would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> had the ability to browse through, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> example, large sections of choral music. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> read all of the standard recording review
>>>>>>>>>>>>> magazines each month, as well as specialist
>>>>>>>>>>>>> professional journals such as (for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the American Choral Directors Association.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In spite of this, when browsing the section
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Tower, I would find interesting things
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that I hadn't heard of. I have discovered
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many works and composers in this way. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is just one example. Multiply this by several
>>>>>>>>>>>>> genres, composers, etc. How does one do this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> online?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So what caught your eye?
>>>>>>>>>>>> The orchestra or the conductor or the location?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Works I didn't know about, composers I didn't
>>>>>>>>>>> know about...
>>>>>>>>>>>> You can search all the above.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I like all music guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.allmusic.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> as a good starting point.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How does one search on what one doesn't know
>>>>>>>>>>> about?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One taps into the usual flow of press releases,
>>>>>>>>> chatter, and reviews by people who track niches.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You're telling me that you're into buying music
>>>>>>>>>> with unknown composer, work, conductor,
>>>>>>>>>> orchestra, and location.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not unusual for specialists.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then you're right...someone will have to put it
>>>>>>>>>> in your hand for you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not really. You just tap into the industry's flow
>>>>>>>>> of press releases and reviews, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is exactly what I do, which you labeled as
>>>>>>>> "snobbery".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So is that an intentional falsehood or an
>>>>>>> unintentional falsehood on your part, Jenn?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neither; it's simply the truth as shown above.
>>>>>
>>>>> The text "snob" appears above, only as origionated by
>>>>> you, Jenn.
>>>
>>>>> That would make your falsehood intentional, right?
>>>
>>>> Mon, Oct 9 2006 4:19 am
>>>> Jenn: I read all of the standard
>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
>>>> American Choral Directors Association.
>>>
>>>> Arny: More snobbery.
>>>
>>> Based on name-dropping and gratuitous self-praise in
>>> the form of phrases like "specialist professional
>>> journals".
>>
>> That's not "name-dropping" Arny. Do you know what a
>> professional journal is? Is it "name-dropping" when you
>> mention reading the AES journal?
>>
>>>
>>> Not the same thing at all as innocently reading press
>>> releases. We'll chalk
>>> that up as being yet another Jenn lie.
>>
>> Thanks for your opinion.
>
> I take my previous post back. I think Arny dropped his
> whole *bag* of obnoxious pills *into* his bag of trail
> mix before he set out.

I repeat my previous post. Trail mix? How 60s!

> Judging by his posts, he must
> have averaged six of those pills a day.

No, its all about how obnoxious the RAO trolls are after a week of solitude.
We met no other folks for 7 days.

Jenn

October 10th 06, 11:33 PM

In article >,
"Harry Lavo" > wrote:

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > "Jenn" > wrote in
> > message
> >
> > om
> >> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> >> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>> message
> >>>
> >>> .com
> >>> ...
> >>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>> message
> >>>>>
> >>>>> gy.
> >>>>> com ...
> >>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >
> > Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated, inefficient, poor-service
> > business model.
> >
> >>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >>>>> I shall not mourn.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> >>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the most
> >>>> about the closing will be classical buyers:
> >
> >>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about 3D
> >>>> shopping, because of the value of browsing. It seems
> >>>> to be a common story that classical folks find so many
> >>>> treasures by browsing through sections of 3D stores.
> >>>> This is not nearly as fruitful online.
> >
> > I've always found online browsing to be far more fruitful than browsing
> > through record bins.
> >
> >>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
> >>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin stores.
> >
> > No physical store has the inventory that is available and browsable on the
> > web.
> >
> >>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to
> >>> keep the business model going.
> >
> > Most consumers found their business model to be other than what they
> > wanted.
> >
> >> Obviously.
> >
> >>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
> >>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of on-line
> >>> catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get out of
> >>> looking at the cases
> >>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider
> >>> selections?
> >
> > Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't about the music.
> >
> >> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by Arny:
> >> You probably never visited the Tower classical stores in
> >> Hollywood and San Francisco.
> >
> > Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't appreciate it because you
> > aren't as cosmopolitan as I am" approach.
> >
> >> There you would have had
> >> the ability to browse through, for example, large
> >> sections of choral music.
> >
> > What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
> >
> >>I read all of the standard
> >> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> >> specialist professional journals such as (for the present
> >> example) the Choral Journal published by the American
> >> Choral Directors Association.
> >
> > More snobbery.
> >
> >> In spite of this, when
> >> browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting
> >> things that I hadn't heard of.
> >
> > Inability to browse the web noted.
> >
> >> I have discovered many
> >> works and composers in this way.
> >
> > Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on the web.
> >
> >> This is just one
> >> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
> >> etc.
> >
> > Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
> >
> >> How does one do this online?
> >
> > Start out by learning how to spell google.
> >
> >>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop shops
> >>> who weren't interested in what the record companies
> >>> wanted promoted or moved
> >>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it did to
> >>> pop music culture over the last couple of decades.
> >
> > Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the power to undo.
> >
> >>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a display of
> >>> talent
> >>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by the
> >>> likes of
> >>> MTV and Chain record stores.
> >
> > Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That makes every Tower store
> > a chain store.
> >
> >> I would agree.
> >
> > And thus contradict yourself. Good job!
>
> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I think that explains
> this uplifting return to the web.

I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his rude ways. Oh
well.

[email protected]

October 10th 06, 11:48 PM

Stuart Krivis wrote:
> On 9 Oct 2006 18:31:43 -0700, " >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Mr. Krivis, the universal man, is deeply concerned about "other
> >cultures";
> >
> >> Like what, a work by Beethoven? Yes, it's true that this is a display
> >> of enduring cultural values by whites of European stock. It may not be
> >> so wonderful to someone from another culture.
> >>
> >I'll help you out. No, it is not valued by the enormous majority of
> >even the "whites of European stock" either. So what?
> >
> >But it is valued by such as Yo Yo Ma, Kiri Te Kanawa, the Tokyo quartet
> >and countless others studying Western music in the Indian, Japanese,
> >Chinese music schools. The Muscovites took to it with enthusiasm the
> >minute they came in contact with it.in the 18th century. Granted that
> >in Nigeria, amongst the Bushmen in Kalahari Desret or the Inuit in the
> >frozen North it may not mean much.
>
> You completely missed my point, and that is that the Classical music
> you are such a snob about is mainly a product of one culture, and that
> it may not be considered wonderful by someone from another culture.
>
> (I like Classical and Pop music. Both are valid forms of musical
> expression, and both have value.)
>
> >
> >> Classical music could all be considered a bunch
> >> of trash by everyone 100 years from now. We don't know what will
> >> happen.
> >
> >You may well be right. In the old snobbish days the elite had its
> >standards aspired to. Now that everyone can read (not for too long),
> >and has money for entertainment the standards are following the buck.
> >Music conservatories will play Metallica and sopranos sing Linda
> >Ronstadt. It will be a truly wonderful world to hope for and cherish.
> >Lots of luck.
>
> So says Ludo, the arbiter of all things musical.
>
> I'm not defending Metallica or Linda Ronstadt (although she did bring
> back a lot of those old torch songs), but who the hell are you to
> decide what is good and what isn't?
>
> I think you are far too impressed with yourself, your "classical"
> education, and your much-vaunted "culture." (The only culture you
> likely possess is E. coli.)

==========================================

Stuart Krivis wrote:
> On 9 Oct 2006 18:31:43 -0700, " >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Mr. Krivis, the cosmo- man, is deeply concerned about "other
> >cultures";
> >
> >> Like what, a work by Beethoven? Yes, it's true that this is a display
> >> of enduring cultural values by whites of European stock. It may not be
> >> so wonderful to someone from another culture.
> >>
I answered:

> >I'll help you out. No, it is not valued by the enormous majority of
> >even the "whites of European stock" either. So what?
> >
> >But it is valued by such as Yo Yo Ma, Kiri Te Kanawa, the Tokyo quartet
> >and countless others studying Western music in the Indian, Japanese,
> >Chinese music schools. The Muscovites took to it with enthusiasm the
> >minute they came in contact with it.in the 18th century. Granted that
> >in Nigeria, amongst the Bushmen in Kalahari Desret or the Inuit in the
> >frozen North it may not mean much.

Mr. Krivis

> You completely missed my point, and that is that the Classical music
> you are such a snob about is mainly a product of one culture, and that
> it may not be considered wonderful by someone from another culture.

It "may not" but you completely missed *my* point that in actual life
the same kind of people white-, yellow- or black- skinned will value
Beethoven's last quartets. It is your privilege, to share your likes
equally between Tony Bennett and Mozart. Except that Mozart is still
played centuries later byYo Yo Ma while you probably pulped your Tony
Bennett.to make room for ??Hot Chili Peppers??.
Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Proust etc. may be my literary choice but I'm well
aware that Ludlum and Grisham outsell them thousandfold

But let's get it straight. There is no "objective" way of proving that
my choices are better than yours or anyone else.

Consequently I live and let live. I do not call anyone low-life or such
for their choices. I feel privileged for having once (no longer alas!)
been able to read Plato in the original Greek- but I am only too
conscious that at the same time I was and remained a mathematical
moron. It takes all kinds.

It is people like you that seem to resent human variety, are paranoid
about your choices, talk about "snobs" and worse.about people with
different priorities..

You said:
> (I like Classical and Pop music. Both are valid forms of musical
> expression, and both have value.)

Exactly like Tolstoy vs Ludllum and your Rao postings. All three are
"forms of literary expression" and all have "vallue". It all depends on
how you define value.. If you think that the world without Tolstoy and
with Ludlum and you would be every bit as good I can not "prove" that
you're not right.

> >> Classical music could all be considered a bunch
> >> of trash by everyone 100 years from now. We don't know what will
> >> happen.
> >
> >You may well be right. In the old snobbish days the elite had its
> >standards aspired to. Now that everyone can read (not for too long),
> >and has money for entertainment the standards are following the buck.
> >Music conservatories will play Metallica and sopranos sing Linda
> >Ronstadt. It will be a truly wonderful world to hope for and cherish.
> >Lots of luck.
>
> So says Ludo, the arbiter of all things musical.
>
> I'm not defending Metallica or Linda Ronstadt (although she did bring
> back a lot of those old torch songs), but who the hell are you to
> decide what is good and what isn't?
>
Actually I "decide" to suit myself, the old subjectivist me.. I don't
know how many share my values but they certainly are not in the
majority.. My choices are shared by people who like the same things as
I do. But if all of it has the same "value" for you and you're welcome
to enjoy it..

> I think you are far too impressed with yourself, your "classical"
> education, and your much-vaunted "culture." (The only culture you
> likely possess is E. coli.)

Tsk, tsk- you seem bitter and striving for a funny ha ,ha
repartee..Don't stop. Krueger mantle is waiting for a successor..
Ludovic Mirabel

MiNe 109

October 11th 06, 12:19 AM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> I repeat my previous post. Trail mix? How 60s!

Only a million-plus google hits "trail mix." There's even a GORP website.

Stephen

paul packer

October 11th 06, 01:35 AM

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:24:41 -0400, George M. Middius <cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote:

>BTW, the correct spelling is semicolon. The prefix semi-, not being a word
>in its own right, never gets the honor of a hyphen.

Which I guess means I'm not an elitist snob. :-)

paul packer

October 11th 06, 01:38 AM

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 08:30:45 -0400, Stuart Krivis
> wrote:

>So says Ludo, the arbiter of all things musical.
>
>I'm not defending Metallica or Linda Ronstadt (although she did bring
>back a lot of those old torch songs), but who the hell are you to
>decide what is good and what isn't?

Someone with taste, discrimination and culture apparently. They do
still exist, you know.

George M. Middius

October 11th 06, 05:04 AM

Eeyore

October 11th 06, 06:12 AM

"George M. Middius" wrote:

> > He didn't say *he* found it "One of the most moving compositions ever written" did he ?
>
> No, apparently not.

Jenn

October 11th 06, 06:37 AM

In article >,
(paul packer) wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:24:41 -0400, George M. Middius <cmndr
> [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote:
>
>
> >BTW, the correct spelling is semicolon. The prefix semi-, not being a word
> >in its own right, never gets the honor of a hyphen.
>
>
> Which I guess means I'm not an elitist snob. :-)

Well lucky you! ;-)

paul packer

October 11th 06, 09:03 AM

On 10 Oct 2006 15:48:37 -0700, " >
wrote:

> I feel privileged for having once (no longer alas!)
>been able to read Plato in the original Greek-

I wonder if you're familiar with the "Greek" novels of Mary Renault,
Ludo.

paul packer

October 11th 06, 09:08 AM

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:33:06 GMT, Jenn
> wrote:

>> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I think that explains
>> this uplifting return to the web.
>
>I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his rude ways. Oh
>well.

No, Jenn, in ArnyWorld you're not being polite, you're being weak and
vulnerable, which means you should be attacked as viciously and as
often as possible before you can put up your defences. ArnyWorld is a
very hard place.

Eeyore

October 11th 06, 09:12 AM

paul packer wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:33:06 GMT, Jenn
> > wrote:
>
> >> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I think that explains
> >> this uplifting return to the web.
> >
> >I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his rude ways. Oh
> >well.
>
> No, Jenn, in ArnyWorld you're not being polite, you're being weak and
> vulnerable, which means you should be attacked as viciously and as
> often as possible before you can put up your defences. ArnyWorld is a
> very hard place.

Any connection with Wally World ?
http://www.wallyworld.com/

Graham

Arny Krueger

October 11th 06, 12:52 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Harry Lavo" > wrote:
>
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>> om
>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>>
>>>>> .com
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> gy.
>>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>
>>> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated,
>>> inefficient, poor-service business model.
>>>
>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
>>>
>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks find
>>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D
>>>>>> stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online.
>>>
>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
>>>
>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
>>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin stores.
>>>
>>> No physical store has the inventory that is available
>>> and browsable on the web.
>>>
>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to
>>>>> keep the business model going.
>>>
>>> Most consumers found their business model to be other
>>> than what they wanted.
>>>
>>>> Obviously.
>>>
>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
>>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get
>>>>> out of looking at the cases
>>>>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider
>>>>> selections?
>>>
>>> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't about
>>> the music.
>>>
>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower classical
>>>> stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
>>>
>>> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't appreciate
>>> it because you aren't as cosmopolitan as I am" approach.
>>>
>>>> There you would have had
>>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
>>>> sections of choral music.
>>>
>>> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
>>>
>>>> I read all of the standard
>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
>>>> American Choral Directors Association.
>>>
>>> More snobbery.
>>>
>>>> In spite of this, when
>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting
>>>> things that I hadn't heard of.
>>>
>>> Inability to browse the web noted.
>>>
>>>> I have discovered many
>>>> works and composers in this way.
>>>
>>> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on
>>> the web.
>>>
>>>> This is just one
>>>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
>>>> etc.
>>>
>>> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
>>>
>>>> How does one do this online?
>>>
>>> Start out by learning how to spell google.
>>>
>>>>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop
>>>>> shops who weren't interested in what the record
>>>>> companies wanted promoted or moved
>>>>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it did
>>>>> to pop music culture over the last couple of decades.
>>>
>>> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the power
>>> to undo.
>>>
>>>>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a display
>>>>> of talent
>>>>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by the
>>>>> likes of
>>>>> MTV and Chain record stores.
>>>
>>> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That
>>> makes every Tower store a chain store.
>>>
>>>> I would agree.
>>>
>>> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!
>>
>> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I
>> think that explains this uplifting return to the web.
>
> I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his
> rude ways. Oh well.

Hmm, under pressure to support her lies and deceptions, Jenn tries the weak
girly weepy-crying thing. Now in come the big strong men to comfort her in
her time of need.

LOL!

Arny Krueger

October 11th 06, 01:05 PM

"MiNe 109" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> I repeat my previous post. Trail mix? How 60s!
>
> Only a million-plus google hits "trail mix." There's even
> a GORP website.

So, how many hits do you get for that other 60s antique, the LP? ;-)

Trail mix gets our thumbs down for a number of reasons, including the fact
that it is messy, heavy given the protein and carbohydrate load, contains
things that aren't good for you (refined sugar, chloresterol), and the taste
gets pretty boring pretty fast.

Arny Krueger

October 11th 06, 01:08 PM

"Eeyore" > wrote in
message
> "George M. Middius" wrote:
>
>>> He didn't say *he* found it "One of the most moving
>>> compositions ever written" did he ?
>>
>> No, apparently not.

Don't try to confuse George with the facts!

George puts on all these airs about being a great writer, but his idea of
quoting is:

Add a few words to the purported exact quote.
Subtract a few words from the purported exact quote.
Change a few words in the purported exact quote.
Whatever.

Many examples of this exist in Google.

George must be a professional journalist, eh? ;-)

MiNe 109

October 11th 06, 01:20 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> I repeat my previous post. Trail mix? How 60s!
> >
> > Only a million-plus google hits "trail mix." There's even
> > a GORP website.
>
> So, how many hits do you get for that other 60s antique, the LP? ;-)
>
> Trail mix gets our thumbs down for a number of reasons, including the fact
> that it is messy, heavy given the protein and carbohydrate load, contains
> things that aren't good for you (refined sugar, chloresterol), and the taste
> gets pretty boring pretty fast.

I respect your personal preference. You forgot to mention "bear food."

Stephen

George M. Middius

October 11th 06, 01:45 PM

Phew! Can anybody else smell the fetid stink of Krooger's vagina?

> > I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his
> > rude ways. Oh well.

> Hmm, under pressure to support her lies and deceptions, Jenn tries the weak
> girly weepy-crying thing. Now in come the big strong men to comfort her in
> her time of need.

Arnii, I think you've been using the wrong IUD or tampons. Something has
gone terribly wrong with your female parts. Maybe you should just take a
vinegar bath -- and quickly, if you know what I mean.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

dave weil

October 11th 06, 03:10 PM

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:05:01 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"MiNe 109" > wrote in message

>> In article >,
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>
>>> I repeat my previous post. Trail mix? How 60s!
>>
>> Only a million-plus google hits "trail mix." There's even
>> a GORP website.
>
>So, how many hits do you get for that other 60s antique, the LP? ;-)
>
>Trail mix gets our thumbs down for a number of reasons, including the fact
>that it is messy, heavy given the protein and carbohydrate load, contains
>things that aren't good for you (refined sugar, chloresterol), and the taste
>gets pretty boring pretty fast.

That's why he takes nothing but ham sandwiches.

Arny Krueger

October 11th 06, 03:51 PM

"MiNe 109" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "MiNe 109" > wrote in message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I repeat my previous post. Trail mix? How 60s!
>>>
>>> Only a million-plus google hits "trail mix." There's
>>> even a GORP website.
>>
>> So, how many hits do you get for that other 60s antique,
>> the LP? ;-)

>> Trail mix gets our thumbs down for a number of reasons,
>> including the fact that it is messy, heavy given the
>> protein and carbohydrate load, contains things that
>> aren't good for you (refined sugar, chloresterol), and
>> the taste gets pretty boring pretty fast.

> I respect your personal preference.

More global than just that.

> You forgot to mention "bear food."

It was bear hunting season when and where we hiked. About 2,000 bear
hunting licenses were issued in that county this year, according to the MI
DNR site. It was all happening someplace else, because bear hunting is not
the sort of thing that can be missed if it is going on within miles and
miles of where you are. For example, it is legal to hunt bear with up to 6
dogs.

Bear food from humans is usually sugar beets, carrots, apples, and baked
goods. Those are legal bait, and sold in just about every country gas
station in Mi this time of year.

We suspect that any smart bear was further downsteam on the Ontonagon River,
probably on the stretch between the hatchery and Lake Superior. The Coho
Salmon started running about now. I think the hunters know this quite well,
as well. Well, maybe not-so smart bears.

Bertie the Bunyip

October 11th 06, 03:52 PM

Eeyore > wrote in
:

>
>
> "George M. Middius" wrote:
>
>> > He didn't say *he* found it "One of the most moving compositions
>> > ever written" did he ?
>>
>> No, apparently not.
>
>

piece of **** nettkkkoping k00k

bertie

Bertie the Bunyip

October 11th 06, 04:03 PM

Eeyore > wrote in
:

>
>
> paul packer wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:33:06 GMT, Jenn
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I think that
>> >> explains this uplifting return to the web.
>> >
>> >I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his rude ways. Oh
>> >well.
>>
>> No, Jenn, in ArnyWorld you're not being polite, you're being weak and
>> vulnerable, which means you should be attacked as viciously and as
>> often as possible before you can put up your defences. ArnyWorld is a
>> very hard place.
>
> Any connection with Wally World ?
> http://www.wallyworld.com/

Fjukktard

bertie

Jenn

October 11th 06, 04:16 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Harry Lavo" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >> . ..
> >>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>> message
> >>>
> >>> .c
> >>> om
> >>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> >>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>> message
> >>>>>
> >>>>> gy
> >>>>> .com
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>>>> message
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>> gy.
> >>>>>>> com ...
> >>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>
> >>> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated,
> >>> inefficient, poor-service business model.
> >>>
> >>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
> >>>
> >>> Agreed.
> >>>
> >>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
> >>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
> >>>
> >>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
> >>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
> >>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks find
> >>>>>> so many treasures by browsing through sections of 3D
> >>>>>> stores. This is not nearly as fruitful online.
> >>>
> >>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
> >>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
> >>>
> >>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had FAR
> >>>>>> more stock than does, for example, the Virgin stores.
> >>>
> >>> No physical store has the inventory that is available
> >>> and browsable on the web.
> >>>
> >>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough to
> >>>>> keep the business model going.
> >>>
> >>> Most consumers found their business model to be other
> >>> than what they wanted.
> >>>
> >>>> Obviously.
> >>>
> >>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand why
> >>>>> you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
> >>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get
> >>>>> out of looking at the cases
> >>>>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far wider
> >>>>> selections?
> >>>
> >>> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't about
> >>> the music.
> >>>
> >>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
> >>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower classical
> >>>> stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
> >>>
> >>> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't appreciate
> >>> it because you aren't as cosmopolitan as I am" approach.
> >>>
> >>>> There you would have had
> >>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
> >>>> sections of choral music.
> >>>
> >>> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
> >>>
> >>>> I read all of the standard
> >>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> >>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
> >>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
> >>>> American Choral Directors Association.
> >>>
> >>> More snobbery.
> >>>
> >>>> In spite of this, when
> >>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find interesting
> >>>> things that I hadn't heard of.
> >>>
> >>> Inability to browse the web noted.
> >>>
> >>>> I have discovered many
> >>>> works and composers in this way.
> >>>
> >>> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on
> >>> the web.
> >>>
> >>>> This is just one
> >>>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
> >>>> etc.
> >>>
> >>> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
> >>>
> >>>> How does one do this online?
> >>>
> >>> Start out by learning how to spell google.
> >>>
> >>>>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop
> >>>>> shops who weren't interested in what the record
> >>>>> companies wanted promoted or moved
> >>>>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it did
> >>>>> to pop music culture over the last couple of decades.
> >>>
> >>> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the power
> >>> to undo.
> >>>
> >>>>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a display
> >>>>> of talent
> >>>>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by the
> >>>>> likes of
> >>>>> MTV and Chain record stores.
> >>>
> >>> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That
> >>> makes every Tower store a chain store.
> >>>
> >>>> I would agree.
> >>>
> >>> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!
> >>
> >> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I
> >> think that explains this uplifting return to the web.
> >
> > I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his
> > rude ways. Oh well.
>
> Hmm, under pressure to support her lies and deceptions,

Incorrect. I feel no pressure to do so because I've not lied or
deceived.

> Jenn tries the weak
> girly weepy-crying thing. Now in come the big strong men to comfort her in
> her time of need.
>
> LOL!

Though the above is quite revealing, you couldn't be more incorrect.
Since your return from vacation, I've been nothing but polite to you and
yet you continue to use attempted insult as your primary debating
tactic. That is very clear.

Jenn

October 11th 06, 04:17 PM

In article >,
(paul packer) wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:33:06 GMT, Jenn
> > wrote:
>
>
> >> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I think that explains
> >> this uplifting return to the web.
> >
> >I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his rude ways. Oh
> >well.
>
> No, Jenn, in ArnyWorld you're not being polite, you're being weak and
> vulnerable, which means you should be attacked as viciously and as
> often as possible before you can put up your defences. ArnyWorld is a
> very hard place.

Yeah. I'll be me and I'll let him be him and the readers can sort it
all out.

George M. Middius

October 11th 06, 04:20 PM

dave weil said:

> >pretty boring pretty fast.

> That's why he takes nothing but ham sandwiches.

And corn flakes.

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

Arny Krueger

October 11th 06, 04:29 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Harry
>>> Lavo" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>> . ..
>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>>
>>>>> .c
>>>>> om
>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>>>>>>>> in message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>> gy.
>>>>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated,
>>>>> inefficient, poor-service business model.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
>>>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
>>>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
>>>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks
>>>>>>>> find so many treasures by browsing through
>>>>>>>> sections of 3D stores. This is not nearly as
>>>>>>>> fruitful online.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
>>>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had
>>>>>>>> FAR more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
>>>>>>>> stores.
>>>>>
>>>>> No physical store has the inventory that is available
>>>>> and browsable on the web.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough
>>>>>>> to keep the business model going.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most consumers found their business model to be other
>>>>> than what they wanted.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand
>>>>>>> why you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
>>>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get
>>>>>>> out of looking at the cases
>>>>>>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far
>>>>>>> wider selections?
>>>>>
>>>>> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't about
>>>>> the music.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
>>>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower classical
>>>>>> stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't appreciate
>>>>> it because you aren't as cosmopolitan as I am"
>>>>> approach.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There you would have had
>>>>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
>>>>>> sections of choral music.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
>>>>>
>>>>>> I read all of the standard
>>>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
>>>>>> American Choral Directors Association.
>>>>>
>>>>> More snobbery.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In spite of this, when
>>>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>>>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of.
>>>>>
>>>>> Inability to browse the web noted.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have discovered many
>>>>>> works and composers in this way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on
>>>>> the web.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is just one
>>>>>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
>>>>>
>>>>>> How does one do this online?
>>>>>
>>>>> Start out by learning how to spell google.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop
>>>>>>> shops who weren't interested in what the record
>>>>>>> companies wanted promoted or moved
>>>>>>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it
>>>>>>> did to pop music culture over the last couple of
>>>>>>> decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the
>>>>> power to undo.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a
>>>>>>> display of talent
>>>>>>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by
>>>>>>> the likes of
>>>>>>> MTV and Chain record stores.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That
>>>>> makes every Tower store a chain store.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would agree.
>>>>>
>>>>> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!
>>>>
>>>> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I
>>>> think that explains this uplifting return to the web.

Jenn jumps onto this insulting post because it allows her her to work off
her frustrations without being overtly insulting.

It's all about being passive-agressive.

>>> I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his
>>> rude ways. Oh well.

That's why Jenn jumped onto this insulting post from Paul - she hates
insults sooo much.

And if you believe that...

>> Hmm, under pressure to support her lies and deceptions,

> Incorrect. I feel no pressure to do so because I've not
> lied or deceived.

Of course not Jenn, you always tell the truth, even when caught in obvious
deceptions and etc.

>> Jenn tries the weak
>> girly weepy-crying thing. Now in come the big strong
>> men to comfort her in her time of need.
>>
>> LOL!

> Though the above is quite revealing,

What, it's proof that I can read and comprehend your apparent state of mind?

LOL!

> you couldn't be more incorrect.

Of course. I'm always wrong and Jenn is always right. Jenn may have made one
tiny little mistake, ever.

LOL!

> Since your return from vacation, I've been
> nothing but polite to you and yet you continue to use
> attempted insult as your primary debating tactic.

No, just the facts.

> That is very clear.

It's clear to you Jenn, and for you that is all that matters, as it is all
that matters to people who lack personal insight.

George M. Middius

October 11th 06, 04:48 PM

KrazyBorg yammered:

> > Since your return from vacation, I've been
> > nothing but polite to you and yet you continue to use
> > attempted insult as your primary debating tactic.

> No, just the facts.

Are you getting worse, Arnii? Tell us about the voices you hear.

> > That is very clear.

> It's clear to you Jenn, and for you that is all that matters, as it is all
> that matters to people who lack personal insight.

Hmmm... I wonder if we can scare up somebody like that on RAO. Anybody got
a suggestion?

--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

George M. Middius

October 11th 06, 04:55 PM

Harry Lavo

October 11th 06, 05:04 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
>> In article >,
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>
>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>> message
>>>
>>>> In article
>>>> >, "Harry
>>>> Lavo" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>> . ..
>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>> message
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .c
>>>>>> om
>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>>>>>>>>> in message
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>> gy.
>>>>>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated,
>>>>>> inefficient, poor-service business model.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
>>>>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
>>>>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
>>>>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks
>>>>>>>>> find so many treasures by browsing through
>>>>>>>>> sections of 3D stores. This is not nearly as
>>>>>>>>> fruitful online.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
>>>>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had
>>>>>>>>> FAR more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
>>>>>>>>> stores.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No physical store has the inventory that is available
>>>>>> and browsable on the web.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough
>>>>>>>> to keep the business model going.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most consumers found their business model to be other
>>>>>> than what they wanted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand
>>>>>>>> why you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
>>>>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get
>>>>>>>> out of looking at the cases
>>>>>>>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far
>>>>>>>> wider selections?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't about
>>>>>> the music.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
>>>>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower classical
>>>>>>> stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't appreciate
>>>>>> it because you aren't as cosmopolitan as I am"
>>>>>> approach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There you would have had
>>>>>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
>>>>>>> sections of choral music.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I read all of the standard
>>>>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>>>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>>>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
>>>>>>> American Choral Directors Association.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More snobbery.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In spite of this, when
>>>>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>>>>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Inability to browse the web noted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have discovered many
>>>>>>> works and composers in this way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on
>>>>>> the web.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is just one
>>>>>>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How does one do this online?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Start out by learning how to spell google.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop
>>>>>>>> shops who weren't interested in what the record
>>>>>>>> companies wanted promoted or moved
>>>>>>>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it
>>>>>>>> did to pop music culture over the last couple of
>>>>>>>> decades.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the
>>>>>> power to undo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a
>>>>>>>> display of talent
>>>>>>>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by
>>>>>>>> the likes of
>>>>>>>> MTV and Chain record stores.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That
>>>>>> makes every Tower store a chain store.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!
>>>>>
>>>>> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I
>>>>> think that explains this uplifting return to the web.
>
> Jenn jumps onto this insulting post because it allows her her to work off
> her frustrations without being overtly insulting.
>
> It's all about being passive-agressive.
>
>>>> I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his
>>>> rude ways. Oh well.
>
> That's why Jenn jumped onto this insulting post from Paul - she hates
> insults sooo much.
>
> And if you believe that...
>
>>> Hmm, under pressure to support her lies and deceptions,
>
>> Incorrect. I feel no pressure to do so because I've not
>> lied or deceived.
>
> Of course not Jenn, you always tell the truth, even when caught in obvious
> deceptions and etc.
>
>>> Jenn tries the weak
>>> girly weepy-crying thing. Now in come the big strong
>>> men to comfort her in her time of need.
>>>
>>> LOL!
>
>> Though the above is quite revealing,
>
> What, it's proof that I can read and comprehend your apparent state of
> mind?
>
> LOL!
>
>> you couldn't be more incorrect.
>
> Of course. I'm always wrong and Jenn is always right. Jenn may have made
> one tiny little mistake, ever.
>
> LOL!
>
>> Since your return from vacation, I've been
>> nothing but polite to you and yet you continue to use
>> attempted insult as your primary debating tactic.
>
> No, just the facts.
>
>> That is very clear.
>
> It's clear to you Jenn, and for you that is all that matters, as it is all
> that matters to people who lack personal insight.

Do you suppose Arny is on such a rampage because he fears that we got along
very well without him?

Arny Krueger

October 11th 06, 05:08 PM

"Harry Lavo" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>>
>>>>> In article
>>>>> >, "Harry
>>>>> Lavo" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>>> . ..
>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .c
>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>>>>>>>> in message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>> gy.
>>>>>>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated,
>>>>>>> inefficient, poor-service business model.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
>>>>>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more
>>>>>>>>>> about 3D shopping, because of the value of
>>>>>>>>>> browsing. It seems to be a common story that
>>>>>>>>>> classical folks find so many treasures by
>>>>>>>>>> browsing through sections of 3D stores. This is
>>>>>>>>>> not nearly as fruitful online.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
>>>>>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had
>>>>>>>>>> FAR more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
>>>>>>>>>> stores.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No physical store has the inventory that is
>>>>>>> available and browsable on the web.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't
>>>>>>>>> enough to keep the business model going.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most consumers found their business model to be
>>>>>>> other than what they wanted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obviously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand
>>>>>>>>> why you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities
>>>>>>>>> of on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can
>>>>>>>>> you get out of looking at the cases
>>>>>>>>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far
>>>>>>>>> wider selections?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't
>>>>>>> about the music.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
>>>>>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower
>>>>>>>> classical stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't
>>>>>>> appreciate it because you aren't as cosmopolitan as
>>>>>>> I am" approach.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There you would have had
>>>>>>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
>>>>>>>> sections of choral music.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I read all of the standard
>>>>>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>>>>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>>>>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by
>>>>>>>> the American Choral Directors Association.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More snobbery.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In spite of this, when
>>>>>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>>>>>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Inability to browse the web noted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have discovered many
>>>>>>>> works and composers in this way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on
>>>>>>> the web.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is just one
>>>>>>>> example. Multiply this by several genres,
>>>>>>>> composers, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How does one do this online?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Start out by learning how to spell google.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop
>>>>>>>>> shops who weren't interested in what the record
>>>>>>>>> companies wanted promoted or moved
>>>>>>>>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it
>>>>>>>>> did to pop music culture over the last couple of
>>>>>>>>> decades.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the
>>>>>>> power to undo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a
>>>>>>>>> display of talent
>>>>>>>>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by
>>>>>>>>> the likes of
>>>>>>>>> MTV and Chain record stores.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That
>>>>>>> makes every Tower store a chain store.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would agree.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I think that
>>>>>> explains this uplifting return to the
>>>>>> web.
>>
>> Jenn jumps onto this insulting post because it allows
>> her her to work off her frustrations without being
>> overtly insulting. It's all about being passive-agressive.
>>
>>>>> I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his
>>>>> rude ways. Oh well.
>>
>> That's why Jenn jumped onto this insulting post from
>> Paul - she hates insults sooo much.
>>
>> And if you believe that...
>>
>>>> Hmm, under pressure to support her lies and deceptions,
>>
>>> Incorrect. I feel no pressure to do so because I've not
>>> lied or deceived.
>>
>> Of course not Jenn, you always tell the truth, even when
>> caught in obvious deceptions and etc.
>>
>>>> Jenn tries the weak
>>>> girly weepy-crying thing. Now in come the big strong
>>>> men to comfort her in her time of need.
>>>>
>>>> LOL!
>>
>>> Though the above is quite revealing,
>>
>> What, it's proof that I can read and comprehend your
>> apparent state of mind?
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>>> you couldn't be more incorrect.
>>
>> Of course. I'm always wrong and Jenn is always right.
>> Jenn may have made one tiny little mistake, ever.
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>>> Since your return from vacation, I've been
>>> nothing but polite to you and yet you continue to use
>>> attempted insult as your primary debating tactic.
>>
>> No, just the facts.
>>
>>> That is very clear.
>>
>> It's clear to you Jenn, and for you that is all that
>> matters, as it is all that matters to people who lack
>> personal insight.
>
> Do you suppose Arny is on such a rampage because he fears
> that we got along very well without him?

Except you didn't. George was still ranting about me the day before I
returned. Probably others of you were, too.

Jenn

October 11th 06, 05:11 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >> message
> >> .
> >> com
> >>> In article
> >>> >, "Harry
> >>> Lavo" > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>> . ..
> >>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>> message
> >>>>>
> >>>>> gy
> >>>>> .c
> >>>>> om
> >>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>>>> message
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>> gy
> >>>>>>> .com
> >>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
> >>>>>>>>> in message
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ro
> >>>>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>>>> gy.
> >>>>>>>>> com ...
> >>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated,
> >>>>> inefficient, poor-service business model.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Agreed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
> >>>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more about
> >>>>>>>> 3D shopping, because of the value of browsing. It
> >>>>>>>> seems to be a common story that classical folks
> >>>>>>>> find so many treasures by browsing through
> >>>>>>>> sections of 3D stores. This is not nearly as
> >>>>>>>> fruitful online.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
> >>>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had
> >>>>>>>> FAR more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
> >>>>>>>> stores.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No physical store has the inventory that is available
> >>>>> and browsable on the web.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't enough
> >>>>>>> to keep the business model going.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Most consumers found their business model to be other
> >>>>> than what they wanted.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Obviously.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand
> >>>>>>> why you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities of
> >>>>>>> on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can you get
> >>>>>>> out of looking at the cases
> >>>>>>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far
> >>>>>>> wider selections?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't about
> >>>>> the music.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
> >>>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower classical
> >>>>>> stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't appreciate
> >>>>> it because you aren't as cosmopolitan as I am"
> >>>>> approach.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> There you would have had
> >>>>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
> >>>>>> sections of choral music.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I read all of the standard
> >>>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> >>>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
> >>>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by the
> >>>>>> American Choral Directors Association.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> More snobbery.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> In spite of this, when
> >>>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find
> >>>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Inability to browse the web noted.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I have discovered many
> >>>>>> works and composers in this way.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on
> >>>>> the web.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> This is just one
> >>>>>> example. Multiply this by several genres, composers,
> >>>>>> etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> How does one do this online?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Start out by learning how to spell google.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop
> >>>>>>> shops who weren't interested in what the record
> >>>>>>> companies wanted promoted or moved
> >>>>>>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it
> >>>>>>> did to pop music culture over the last couple of
> >>>>>>> decades.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the
> >>>>> power to undo.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a
> >>>>>>> display of talent
> >>>>>>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by
> >>>>>>> the likes of
> >>>>>>> MTV and Chain record stores.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That
> >>>>> makes every Tower store a chain store.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I would agree.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!
> >>>>
> >>>> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix. I
> >>>> think that explains this uplifting return to the web.
>
> Jenn jumps onto this insulting post because it allows her her to work off
> her frustrations without being overtly insulting.

Overly insulting? I haven't been insulting at all since your return.

>
> It's all about being passive-agressive.
>
> >>> I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his
> >>> rude ways. Oh well.
>
> That's why Jenn jumped onto this insulting post from Paul - she hates
> insults sooo much.

Yes, I do. I tried trading insults with you and didn't feel right.

>
> And if you believe that...

You should.

>
> >> Hmm, under pressure to support her lies and deceptions,
>
> > Incorrect. I feel no pressure to do so because I've not
> > lied or deceived.
>
> Of course not Jenn, you always tell the truth, even when caught in obvious
> deceptions and etc.

Examples, Arny? We all want to see them.

>
> >> Jenn tries the weak
> >> girly weepy-crying thing. Now in come the big strong
> >> men to comfort her in her time of need.
> >>
> >> LOL!
>
> > Though the above is quite revealing,
>
> What, it's proof that I can read and comprehend your apparent state of mind?
>
> LOL!

No, it's revealing about your thoughts on gender.

>
> > you couldn't be more incorrect.
>
> Of course. I'm always wrong and Jenn is always right. Jenn may have made one
> tiny little mistake, ever.

Who said that? Classic straw-man.

>
> LOL!
>
> > Since your return from vacation, I've been
> > nothing but polite to you and yet you continue to use
> > attempted insult as your primary debating tactic.
>
> No, just the facts.

No, every post by you attempts insult.

>
> > That is very clear.
>
> It's clear to you Jenn, and for you that is all that matters, as it is all
> that matters to people who lack personal insight.

Thanks for your opinion.

Arny Krueger

October 11th 06, 05:20 PM

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>>> In article
>>> >, "Arny
>>> Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> .
>>>> com
>>>>> In article
>>>>> >, "Harry
>>>>> Lavo" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>>> . ..
>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>> .c
>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
>>>>>>>>> in message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>> gy
>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
>>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>>>> di
>>>>>>>>>>> gy.
>>>>>>>>>>> com ...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated,
>>>>>>> inefficient, poor-service business model.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
>>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
>>>>>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more
>>>>>>>>>> about 3D shopping, because of the value of
>>>>>>>>>> browsing. It seems to be a common story that
>>>>>>>>>> classical folks find so many treasures by
>>>>>>>>>> browsing through sections of 3D stores. This is
>>>>>>>>>> not nearly as fruitful online.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
>>>>>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had
>>>>>>>>>> FAR more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
>>>>>>>>>> stores.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No physical store has the inventory that is
>>>>>>> available and browsable on the web.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't
>>>>>>>>> enough to keep the business model going.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most consumers found their business model to be
>>>>>>> other than what they wanted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obviously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand
>>>>>>>>> why you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities
>>>>>>>>> of on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can
>>>>>>>>> you get out of looking at the cases
>>>>>>>>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far
>>>>>>>>> wider selections?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't
>>>>>>> about the music.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
>>>>>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower
>>>>>>>> classical stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't
>>>>>>> appreciate it because you aren't as cosmopolitan as
>>>>>>> I am" approach.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There you would have had
>>>>>>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
>>>>>>>> sections of choral music.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I read all of the standard
>>>>>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
>>>>>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
>>>>>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by
>>>>>>>> the American Choral Directors Association.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More snobbery.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In spite of this, when
>>>>>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find
>>>>>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Inability to browse the web noted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have discovered many
>>>>>>>> works and composers in this way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on
>>>>>>> the web.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is just one
>>>>>>>> example. Multiply this by several genres,
>>>>>>>> composers, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How does one do this online?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Start out by learning how to spell google.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop
>>>>>>>>> shops who weren't interested in what the record
>>>>>>>>> companies wanted promoted or moved
>>>>>>>>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it
>>>>>>>>> did to pop music culture over the last couple of
>>>>>>>>> decades.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the
>>>>>>> power to undo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a
>>>>>>>>> display of talent
>>>>>>>>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by
>>>>>>>>> the likes of
>>>>>>>>> MTV and Chain record stores.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That
>>>>>>> makes every Tower store a chain store.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would agree.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix.
>>>>>> I think that explains this uplifting return to the
>>>>>> web.
>>
>> Jenn jumps onto this insulting post because it allows
>> her her to work off her frustrations without being
>> overtly insulting.
>
> Overly insulting? I haven't been insulting at all since
> your return.
>
>>
>> It's all about being passive-agressive.
>>
>>>>> I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his
>>>>> rude ways. Oh well.
>>
>> That's why Jenn jumped onto this insulting post from
>> Paul - she hates insults sooo much.
>
> Yes, I do. I tried trading insults with you and didn't
> feel right.

Then stop.

I stopped for a week, but you couldn't.

>> And if you believe that...
>
> You should.

The facts tell a different story.

>>>> Hmm, under pressure to support her lies and deceptions,
>>
>>> Incorrect. I feel no pressure to do so because I've not
>>> lied or deceived.
>>
>> Of course not Jenn, you always tell the truth, even when
>> caught in obvious deceptions and etc.

> Examples, Arny? We all want to see them.

<Note that Jenn thinks she speaks for *everyone*>

>>>> Jenn tries the weak
>>>> girly weepy-crying thing. Now in come the big strong
>>>> men to comfort her in her time of need.
>>>>
>>>> LOL!
>>
>>> Though the above is quite revealing,
>>
>> What, it's proof that I can read and comprehend your
>> apparent state of mind?
>>
>> LOL!

> No, it's revealing about your thoughts on gender.

Yes, I believe that gender exists.

>>> you couldn't be more incorrect.
>>
>> Of course. I'm always wrong and Jenn is always right.
>> Jenn may have made one tiny little mistake, ever.
>
> Who said that? Classic straw-man.

<Ooops, I've triggered the incredible edible Jenn dissembling machine!>

>> LOL!
>>
>>> Since your return from vacation, I've been
>>> nothing but polite to you and yet you continue to use
>>> attempted insult as your primary debating tactic.
>>
>> No, just the facts.
>
> No, every post by you attempts insult.

Speaks to your paranoia, Jenn. I've actually given a few straight answers
this morning.

>>> That is very clear.
>>
>> It's clear to you Jenn, and for you that is all that
>> matters, as it is all that matters to people who lack
>> personal insight.
>
> Thanks for your opinion.

<...and folks, Jenn wants you to believe that she intended no sarcasm with
her last comment. Is anybody fooled?>

Jenn

October 11th 06, 05:29 PM

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >> message
> >> .
> >> com
> >>> In article
> >>> >, "Arny
> >>> Krueger" > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>> message
> >>>>
> >>>> y.
> >>>> com
> >>>>> In article
> >>>>> >, "Harry
> >>>>> Lavo" > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>>>> . ..
> >>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote in
> >>>>>>> message
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>> gy
> >>>>>>> .c
> >>>>>>> om
> >>>>>>>> In article <Tt9Wg.2433$fl.1470@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "Jenn" > wrote
> >>>>>>>>> in message
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ro
> >>>>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>>>> gy
> >>>>>>>>> .com
> >>>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>>> In article <1JRVg.2364$fl.315@dukeread08>,
> >>>>>>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Jenn" >
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> .p
> >>>>>>>>>>> ro
> >>>>>>>>>>> di
> >>>>>>>>>>> gy.
> >>>>>>>>>>> com ...
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Final sale starts today. Very sad.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Inevitable, a victim of their own outdated,
> >>>>>>> inefficient, poor-service business model.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The Walmart of record stores dies...
> >>>>>>>>>>> I shall not mourn.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Agreed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I suspect that at least in CA, those who care the
> >>>>>>>>>> most about the closing will be classical buyers:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A. I believe that classical buyers care more
> >>>>>>>>>> about 3D shopping, because of the value of
> >>>>>>>>>> browsing. It seems to be a common story that
> >>>>>>>>>> classical folks find so many treasures by
> >>>>>>>>>> browsing through sections of 3D stores. This is
> >>>>>>>>>> not nearly as fruitful online.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've always found online browsing to be far more
> >>>>>>> fruitful than browsing through record bins.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> B. The Tower Classical Annexes in SF and LA had
> >>>>>>>>>> FAR more stock than does, for example, the Virgin
> >>>>>>>>>> stores.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> No physical store has the inventory that is
> >>>>>>> available and browsable on the web.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Obviously their classical selections weren't
> >>>>>>>>> enough to keep the business model going.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Most consumers found their business model to be
> >>>>>>> other than what they wanted.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Obviously.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I know you like browsing but I don't understand
> >>>>>>>>> why you wouldn't appreciate the search abilities
> >>>>>>>>> of on-line catalogs and MP3 samples? What can
> >>>>>>>>> you get out of looking at the cases
> >>>>>>>>> that you can't get on-line and faster and in far
> >>>>>>>>> wider selections?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Touch and feel of the record jackets. It wasn't
> >>>>>>> about the music.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Allow me to quote myself, in response to a post by
> >>>>>>>> Arny: You probably never visited the Tower
> >>>>>>>> classical stores in Hollywood and San Francisco.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ah, its the traditional RAO snob "you can't
> >>>>>>> appreciate it because you aren't as cosmopolitan as
> >>>>>>> I am" approach.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There you would have had
> >>>>>>>> the ability to browse through, for example, large
> >>>>>>>> sections of choral music.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What's wrong with browsing through music on the web?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I read all of the standard
> >>>>>>>> recording review magazines each month, as well as
> >>>>>>>> specialist professional journals such as (for the
> >>>>>>>> present example) the Choral Journal published by
> >>>>>>>> the American Choral Directors Association.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> More snobbery.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In spite of this, when
> >>>>>>>> browsing the section at Tower, I would find
> >>>>>>>> interesting things that I hadn't heard of.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Inability to browse the web noted.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have discovered many
> >>>>>>>> works and composers in this way.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Name a work and/or composer that is not mentioned on
> >>>>>>> the web.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This is just one
> >>>>>>>> example. Multiply this by several genres,
> >>>>>>>> composers, etc.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Inability to effectively browse the web noted.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> How does one do this online?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Start out by learning how to spell google.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Also, I just wonder how many local independent pop
> >>>>>>>>> shops who weren't interested in what the record
> >>>>>>>>> companies wanted promoted or moved
> >>>>>>>>> were put under by the corp. chains....and what it
> >>>>>>>>> did to pop music culture over the last couple of
> >>>>>>>>> decades.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Whatever corporate powers can do, the web has the
> >>>>>>> power to undo.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> AFAIAC, the pop music scene has become less a
> >>>>>>>>> display of talent
> >>>>>>>>> and more a display of marketing prowess enabled by
> >>>>>>>>> the likes of
> >>>>>>>>> MTV and Chain record stores.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Last time I looked Tower Records was a chain. That
> >>>>>>> makes every Tower store a chain store.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I would agree.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And thus contradict yourself. Good job!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Arny mistook his obnoxious pills for his trail mix.
> >>>>>> I think that explains this uplifting return to the
> >>>>>> web.
> >>
> >> Jenn jumps onto this insulting post because it allows
> >> her her to work off her frustrations without being
> >> overtly insulting.
> >
> > Overly insulting? I haven't been insulting at all since
> > your return.
> >
> >>
> >> It's all about being passive-agressive.
> >>
> >>>>> I'm being very polite to him and yet he continues his
> >>>>> rude ways. Oh well.
> >>
> >> That's why Jenn jumped onto this insulting post from
> >> Paul - she hates insults sooo much.
> >
> > Yes, I do. I tried trading insults with you and didn't
> > feel right.
>
> Then stop.

I did. The moment you left.

>
> I stopped for a week, but you couldn't.

Yes, I did. Would you care to back up your statement with an example?

>
> >> And if you believe that...
> >
> > You should.
>
> The facts tell a different story.
>
> >>>> Hmm, under pressure to support her lies and deceptions,
> >>
> >>> Incorrect. I feel no pressure to do so because I've not
> >>> lied or deceived.
> >>
> >> Of course not Jenn, you always tell the truth, even when
> >> caught in obvious deceptions and etc.
>
> > Examples, Arny? We all want to see them.
>
> <Note that Jenn thinks she speaks for *everyone*>

Again: do you have examples of my "obvious deceptions"?

>
> >>>> Jenn tries the weak
> >>>> girly weepy-crying thing. Now in come the big strong
> >>>> men to comfort her in her time of need.
> >>>>
> >>>> LOL!
> >>
> >>> Though the above is quite revealing,
> >>
> >> What, it's proof that I can read and comprehend your
> >> apparent state of mind?
> >>
> >> LOL!
>
> > No, it's revealing about your thoughts on gender.
>
> Yes, I believe that gender exists.
>
> >>> you couldn't be more incorrect.
> >>
> >> Of course. I'm always wrong and Jenn is always right.
> >> Jenn may have made one tiny little mistake, ever.
> >
> > Who said that? Classic straw-man.
>
> <Ooops, I've triggered the incredible edible Jenn dissembling machine!>

No, I've triggered another straw-man argument from you that you are
unable to support.

>
> >> LOL!
> >>
> >>> Since your return from vacation, I've been
> >>> nothing but polite to you and yet you continue to use
> >>> attempted insult as your primary debating tactic.
> >>
> >> No, just the facts.
> >
> > No, every post by you attempts insult.
>
> Speaks to your paranoia, Jenn. I've actually given a few straight answers
> this morning.

OK, a few. I'll admit my mistake and change my statement to "the vast
majority of posts by you attempts insult."

>
> >>> That is very clear.
> >>
> >> It's clear to you Jenn, and for you that is all that
> >> matters, as it is all that matters to people who lack
> >> personal insight.
> >
> > Thanks for your opinion.
>
> <...and folks, Jenn wants you to believe that she intended no sarcasm with
> her last comment. Is anybody fooled?>

I genuinely appreciate hearing your views.

Eeyore

October 11th 06, 05:44 PM

Bertie the Bunyip

October 11th 06, 07:09 PM

Arny Krueger

October 11th 06, 09:00 PM

"Stuart Krivis" > wrote in message

> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:08:37 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>>> Do you suppose Arny is on such a rampage because he
>>> fears that we got along very well without him?

>> Except you didn't. George was still ranting about me the
>> day before I returned. Probably others of you were, too.

> George continually ranting is not proof of anything but
> the insanity of George.

In the overview sense, yes. However the madness of madmen often has a
real-world focus. Lucky me, I'm one of the focus points of George's
madness.

> George probably rants out loud
> when he walks down the street by himself.

If his real world ID is who I suspect, probably not.

> In fact, I think I saw him with his shopping cart the last time I
> was in downtown Cleveland.

Well, that is George's internet persona in most people's eyes.

Sander deWaal

October 11th 06, 09:08 PM

(paul packer) said:

>> I feel privileged for having once (no longer alas!)
>>been able to read Plato in the original Greek-

>I wonder if you're familiar with the "Greek" novels of Mary Renault,
>Ludo.

That's great!
Car repair manuals in *Greek* !

<grin>

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

dizzy

October 12th 06, 12:11 AM

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:

>Anyway, Arny might think 'moving' refers to UHaul, or perhaps to his
>bowels. He might think that 'emotionally moving' refers to a musical
>experience, or perhaps to his bowels.

ROFL

paul packer

October 12th 06, 02:12 AM

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 22:08:36 +0200, Sander deWaal >
wrote:

(paul packer) said:
>
>
>
>>> I feel privileged for having once (no longer alas!)
>>>been able to read Plato in the original Greek-
>
>
>>I wonder if you're familiar with the "Greek" novels of Mary Renault,
>>Ludo.
>
>
>
>That's great!
>Car repair manuals in *Greek* !

Better than the technical manuals you read in "Geek". :-)

dave weil

October 13th 06, 07:29 PM

I know that most of the concepts expressed below are alien to the
likes of Arnold Krueger and his ilk, but I thought that this longish
paragraph from the weekly newsletter of our great indie record store,
Grimey's, pretty much details why the closing of Tower is yet another
cultural loss, despite the fact that it was a specialized "big box".
Take it away, Doyle:

One of the topics that kept coming up over and over on Saturday was
the imminent closing of Tower Records after being sold to a
liquidation company. Everyone assumed I must be ecstatic about the
news. Well, far from it actually. Although I do hope we’ll pick up
some new customers and it’s obviously an opportunity for us to broaden
our selection and customer base (and we’ll go to work on that, you can
bet), it’s an awful thing to happen for the music industry. Losing
such a retail giant will leave huge, gaping holes as far as places for
people to buy music. In the rush to suss out the digital delivery
future, it seems like record labels and the media focus almost
exclusively on online fulfillment. Contrary to what you’ve been led
to believe, TONS of music fans don’t download, don’t order online,
still don’t like to enter their credit card on a web page, and they
very much enjoy the experience of browsing the physical goods in a
traditional retail store. Those valuable customers just lost one of
the great music mass retailers ever. Will they boldly enter into the
online world for their music? Will they give up the deep catalog
offerings of Tower and just buy hits at Best Buy or Borders? Some
will I’m sure. And some will just spend their money on something
else. Along with the atrophy of mall music stores,
Tower’s closing is one more nail in the coffin for impulse CD
purchases. Those little add-on sales because the CD was displayed by
the register or just bopping into the mall store to snag the new
Justin Timberlake while you’re shopping for jeans. Those sales are
gone. And it just leads to more bad news as far as record sales go.
Will some struggling record labels and/or distributors now go out of
business? Maybe. Who knows what all the ripple effects of Tower
going down will be? We’ll keep doing what we do here at Grimey’s and
always strive to improve and make your music shopping experience
better, but I worry that the distributor with the cool underground
catalog that relied on Tower’s national sales to make it every month
will now be hurting. And if they go under, maybe I won’t be able to
stock that cool underground title in the future either...

The above was reproduced without permission and I hope that Doyle
doesn't end up with my vast personal fortune because of it <chuckle>.

paul packer

October 14th 06, 08:21 AM

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:29:56 -0500, dave weil >
wrote:

>Contrary to what you’ve been led
>to believe, TONS of music fans don’t download, don’t order online,
>still don’t like to enter their credit card on a web page,

This last is the greatest impediment. Until they can guarantee
security this will be a real stumbing block to online sales growth.

Arny Krueger

October 14th 06, 11:38 AM

"paul packer" > wrote in message

> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:29:56 -0500, dave weil
> > wrote:
>
>> Contrary to what you’ve been led
>> to believe, TONS of music fans don’t download, don’t
>> order online, still don’t like to enter their credit
>> card on a web page,
>
> This last is the greatest impediment. Until they can
> guarantee security this will be a real stumbing block to
> online sales growth.

Hmm did I say that Paul is paranoid?

paul packer

October 14th 06, 01:06 PM

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 06:38:32 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"paul packer" > wrote in message

>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:29:56 -0500, dave weil
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Contrary to what you’ve been led
>>> to believe, TONS of music fans don’t download, don’t
>>> order online, still don’t like to enter their credit
>>> card on a web page,
>>
>> This last is the greatest impediment. Until they can
>> guarantee security this will be a real stumbing block to
>> online sales growth.
>
>Hmm did I say that Paul is paranoid?

Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
yet 100% secure or safe. Turn off the soldering iron and watch the
news occasionally.

ScottW

October 14th 06, 05:40 PM

"paul packer" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 06:38:32 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
>>"paul packer" > wrote in message

>>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:29:56 -0500, dave weil
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Contrary to what you’ve been led
>>>> to believe, TONS of music fans don’t download, don’t
>>>> order online, still don’t like to enter their credit
>>>> card on a web page,
>>>
>>> This last is the greatest impediment. Until they can
>>> guarantee security this will be a real stumbing block to
>>> online sales growth.
>>
>>Hmm did I say that Paul is paranoid?
>
> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
> yet 100% secure or safe.

What transaction is? You're far safer using a cc on-line
than handing out cash at tower records.

> Turn off the soldering iron and watch the
> news occasionally.

Here are some some simple facts.
1) Is the account holder liable for fraudulent charges on his account?
No.

2) Is the volume of abuse in numbers sufficient that the credit card
issuers (the ones that bear the cost) interested in more secure
forms of transactions?
No.

I was really surprised in hearing this second item in a presentation
on new forms of e-commerce. But apparently it is true.
The credit cards companies
are making so much money the few billions lost to fraud doesn't impact
their profits close to 1 percent. The systems put in place over the last
few decades to support cc transactions
would cost hundreds of times that to replace.

All you have to do to safely use your credit card is look over your
statement before you pay the bill. If anything is amiss, report it
and don't pay it.

ScottW

dave weil

October 14th 06, 06:54 PM

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:11 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:

>>>>
>>>>> Contrary to what you’ve been led
>>>>> to believe, TONS of music fans don’t download, don’t
>>>>> order online, still don’t like to enter their credit
>>>>> card on a web page,
>>>>
>>>> This last is the greatest impediment. Until they can
>>>> guarantee security this will be a real stumbing block to
>>>> online sales growth.
>>>
>>>Hmm did I say that Paul is paranoid?
>>
>> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
>> yet 100% secure or safe.
>
>What transaction is? You're far safer using a cc on-line
>than handing out cash at tower records.
>
>> Turn off the soldering iron and watch the
>> news occasionally.
>
>Here are some some simple facts.
>1) Is the account holder liable for fraudulent charges on his account?
> No.
>
>2) Is the volume of abuse in numbers sufficient that the credit card
>issuers (the ones that bear the cost) interested in more secure
>forms of transactions?
> No.
>
>I was really surprised in hearing this second item in a presentation
>on new forms of e-commerce. But apparently it is true.
>The credit cards companies
>are making so much money the few billions lost to fraud doesn't impact
>their profits close to 1 percent. The systems put in place over the last
>few decades to support cc transactions
>would cost hundreds of times that to replace.
>
>All you have to do to safely use your credit card is look over your
>statement before you pay the bill. If anything is amiss, report it
>and don't pay it.

You sort of left out identity theft. And even if you discover it
immediately, sometimes it's YEARS before you can get it sorted out.
Can it be done in other ways? Sure. They can go through your trash.
But it still doesn't mitigate the fears that some have about
transmitting sensitive financial data over the internet.

Having said that, I've never been afraid to purchase things on-line.
Heck, I've even purchased the occasional CD, album, concert ticket,
etc.

ScottW

October 14th 06, 07:49 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:11 -0700, "ScottW" >
> wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Contrary to what you've been led
>>>>>> to believe, TONS of music fans don't download, don't
>>>>>> order online, still don't like to enter their credit
>>>>>> card on a web page,
>>>>>
>>>>> This last is the greatest impediment. Until they can
>>>>> guarantee security this will be a real stumbing block to
>>>>> online sales growth.
>>>>
>>>>Hmm did I say that Paul is paranoid?
>>>
>>> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
>>> yet 100% secure or safe.
>>
>>What transaction is? You're far safer using a cc on-line
>>than handing out cash at tower records.
>>
>>> Turn off the soldering iron and watch the
>>> news occasionally.
>>
>>Here are some some simple facts.
>>1) Is the account holder liable for fraudulent charges on his account?
>> No.
>>
>>2) Is the volume of abuse in numbers sufficient that the credit card
>>issuers (the ones that bear the cost) interested in more secure
>>forms of transactions?
>> No.
>>
>>I was really surprised in hearing this second item in a presentation
>>on new forms of e-commerce. But apparently it is true.
>>The credit cards companies
>>are making so much money the few billions lost to fraud doesn't impact
>>their profits close to 1 percent. The systems put in place over the last
>>few decades to support cc transactions
>>would cost hundreds of times that to replace.
>>
>>All you have to do to safely use your credit card is look over your
>>statement before you pay the bill. If anything is amiss, report it
>>and don't pay it.
>
> You sort of left out identity theft.

Identity theft doesn't come from on-line CC transactions.
Most ID theft comes from stolen mail or phishing.

> And even if you discover it
> immediately, sometimes it's YEARS before you can get it sorted out.
> Can it be done in other ways? Sure. They can go through your trash.
> But it still doesn't mitigate the fears that some have about
> transmitting sensitive financial data over the internet.

I don't consider the data required for an on line transaction...
sensitive.

>
> Having said that, I've never been afraid to purchase things on-line.
> Heck, I've even purchased the occasional CD, album, concert ticket,
> etc.

There are so many things I can't buy without going to the web
and using a credit card. For instance when I needed a belt for
my TT (one is used for the cueing motor), I easily found one
on the web in parts. I know of no retail store anywhere I can
go to find assorted belts. McMaster Carrs on-line catalog is a treasure
trove of stuff but they don't have a retail outlet.
Eliminating the 'net as a source for purchasing is just
daft IMO :).

ScottW

Arny Krueger

October 15th 06, 01:12 AM

"paul packer" > wrote in message

> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 06:38:32 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>>
>>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:29:56 -0500, dave weil
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Contrary to what you’ve been led
>>>> to believe, TONS of music fans don’t download, don’t
>>>> order online, still don’t like to enter their credit
>>>> card on a web page,
>>>
>>> This last is the greatest impediment. Until they can
>>> guarantee security this will be a real stumbing block to
>>> online sales growth.
>>
>> Hmm did I say that Paul is paranoid?
>
> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online
> trading is not yet 100% secure or safe.

It's known to me.

Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Packer: *nothing* is 100% secure or
safe.

>Turn off the
> soldering iron and watch the news occasionally.

paul packer

October 15th 06, 02:18 AM

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:11 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:

>> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
>> yet 100% secure or safe.
>
>What transaction is? You're far safer using a cc on-line
>than handing out cash at tower records.

I've never been to Tower Records but it sounds like a dangerous place.

Have the Police been notified?

>> Turn off the soldering iron and watch the
>> news occasionally.
>
>Here are some some simple facts.
>1) Is the account holder liable for fraudulent charges on his account?
> No.
>
>2) Is the volume of abuse in numbers sufficient that the credit card
>issuers (the ones that bear the cost) interested in more secure
>forms of transactions?
> No.
>
>I was really surprised in hearing this second item in a presentation
>on new forms of e-commerce. But apparently it is true.
>The credit cards companies
>are making so much money the few billions lost to fraud doesn't impact
>their profits close to 1 percent. The systems put in place over the last
>few decades to support cc transactions
>would cost hundreds of times that to replace.
>
>All you have to do to safely use your credit card is look over your
>statement before you pay the bill. If anything is amiss, report it
>and don't pay it.
>
>ScottW

I endorse what Dave says elsewhere. First you suffer a heart attack
after noticing all your money is gone. Then you wait forever while the
bank decides to reimburse you, if you're lucky. Of course I trade on
the Internet all the time, but I can well understand people having
qualms and you should too.

ScottW

October 15th 06, 02:26 AM

"paul packer" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:11 -0700, "ScottW" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
>>> yet 100% secure or safe.
>>
>>What transaction is? You're far safer using a cc on-line
>>than handing out cash at tower records.
>
> I've never been to Tower Records but it sounds like a dangerous place.

All public places are more dangerous than my home.
YMMV.

>
> Have the Police been notified?
>
>>> Turn off the soldering iron and watch the
>>> news occasionally.
>>
>>Here are some some simple facts.
>>1) Is the account holder liable for fraudulent charges on his account?
>> No.
>>
>>2) Is the volume of abuse in numbers sufficient that the credit card
>>issuers (the ones that bear the cost) interested in more secure
>>forms of transactions?
>> No.
>>
>>I was really surprised in hearing this second item in a presentation
>>on new forms of e-commerce. But apparently it is true.
>>The credit cards companies
>>are making so much money the few billions lost to fraud doesn't impact
>>their profits close to 1 percent. The systems put in place over the last
>>few decades to support cc transactions
>>would cost hundreds of times that to replace.
>>
>>All you have to do to safely use your credit card is look over your
>>statement before you pay the bill. If anything is amiss, report it
>>and don't pay it.
>>
>>ScottW
>
>
> I endorse what Dave says elsewhere. First you suffer a heart attack
> after noticing all your money is gone. Then you wait forever while the
> bank decides to reimburse you, if you're lucky. Of course I trade on
> the Internet all the time, but I can well understand people having
> qualms and you should too.

If you think the above happens through CC fraud....
you're daft.

ScottW

paul packer

October 15th 06, 03:01 AM

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 18:26:03 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:

>
>"paul packer" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:11 -0700, "ScottW" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
>>>> yet 100% secure or safe.
>>>
>>>What transaction is? You're far safer using a cc on-line
>>>than handing out cash at tower records.
>>
>> I've never been to Tower Records but it sounds like a dangerous place.
>
>All public places are more dangerous than my home.
>YMMV.

Not when your wife's upset with you.

>> I endorse what Dave says elsewhere. First you suffer a heart attack
>> after noticing all your money is gone. Then you wait forever while the
>> bank decides to reimburse you, if you're lucky. Of course I trade on
>> the Internet all the time, but I can well understand people having
>> qualms and you should too.
>
> If you think the above happens through CC fraud....
>you're daft.

You mean there's no chance of me having a heart attack when I first
discover my account is empty?

ScottW

October 15th 06, 03:35 AM

"paul packer" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 18:26:03 -0700, "ScottW" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"paul packer" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:11 -0700, "ScottW" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
>>>>> yet 100% secure or safe.
>>>>
>>>>What transaction is? You're far safer using a cc on-line
>>>>than handing out cash at tower records.
>>>
>>> I've never been to Tower Records but it sounds like a dangerous place.
>>
>>All public places are more dangerous than my home.
>>YMMV.
>
> Not when your wife's upset with you.

I keep my wife happy...don't you?

>
>>> I endorse what Dave says elsewhere. First you suffer a heart attack
>>> after noticing all your money is gone. Then you wait forever while the
>>> bank decides to reimburse you, if you're lucky. Of course I trade on
>>> the Internet all the time, but I can well understand people having
>>> qualms and you should too.
>>
>> If you think the above happens through CC fraud....
>>you're daft.
>
> You mean there's no chance of me having a heart attack when I first
> discover my account is empty?

You should be used to it by now.

ScottW

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

October 15th 06, 03:42 AM

ScottW wrote:

> I keep my wife happy...don't you?

Don't worry, toopid, we ALL keep your wife happy.

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

October 15th 06, 03:43 AM

ScottW wrote:

> I keep my wife happy...don't you?

Don't worry, toopid, we ALL keep your wife happy.

dave weil

October 15th 06, 07:06 AM

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:49:30 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:

>
>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:11 -0700, "ScottW" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Contrary to what you've been led
>>>>>>> to believe, TONS of music fans don't download, don't
>>>>>>> order online, still don't like to enter their credit
>>>>>>> card on a web page,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This last is the greatest impediment. Until they can
>>>>>> guarantee security this will be a real stumbing block to
>>>>>> online sales growth.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hmm did I say that Paul is paranoid?
>>>>
>>>> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
>>>> yet 100% secure or safe.
>>>
>>>What transaction is? You're far safer using a cc on-line
>>>than handing out cash at tower records.
>>>
>>>> Turn off the soldering iron and watch the
>>>> news occasionally.
>>>
>>>Here are some some simple facts.
>>>1) Is the account holder liable for fraudulent charges on his account?
>>> No.
>>>
>>>2) Is the volume of abuse in numbers sufficient that the credit card
>>>issuers (the ones that bear the cost) interested in more secure
>>>forms of transactions?
>>> No.
>>>
>>>I was really surprised in hearing this second item in a presentation
>>>on new forms of e-commerce. But apparently it is true.
>>>The credit cards companies
>>>are making so much money the few billions lost to fraud doesn't impact
>>>their profits close to 1 percent. The systems put in place over the last
>>>few decades to support cc transactions
>>>would cost hundreds of times that to replace.
>>>
>>>All you have to do to safely use your credit card is look over your
>>>statement before you pay the bill. If anything is amiss, report it
>>>and don't pay it.
>>
>> You sort of left out identity theft.
>
>Identity theft doesn't come from on-line CC transactions.

http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/idtheft.html

>Most ID theft comes from stolen mail or phishing.

And your point is?

>> And even if you discover it
>> immediately, sometimes it's YEARS before you can get it sorted out.
>> Can it be done in other ways? Sure. They can go through your trash.
>> But it still doesn't mitigate the fears that some have about
>> transmitting sensitive financial data over the internet.
>
>I don't consider the data required for an on line transaction...
>sensitive.

You don't consider your credit card number sensitive?

>>
>> Having said that, I've never been afraid to purchase things on-line.
>> Heck, I've even purchased the occasional CD, album, concert ticket,
>> etc.
>
>There are so many things I can't buy without going to the web
>and using a credit card. For instance when I needed a belt for
>my TT (one is used for the cueing motor), I easily found one
>on the web in parts. I know of no retail store anywhere I can
>go to find assorted belts. McMaster Carrs on-line catalog is a treasure
>trove of stuff but they don't have a retail outlet.
>Eliminating the 'net as a source for purchasing is just
>daft IMO :).

Or prudent, some might say.

dave weil

October 15th 06, 07:24 AM

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 18:26:03 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:

> If you think the above happens through CC fraud....
>you're daft.
>
>ScottW

You seem to have learned a new word.

Congrats!

paul packer

October 15th 06, 11:53 AM

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 19:35:55 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:

>
>"paul packer" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 18:26:03 -0700, "ScottW" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"paul packer" > wrote in message
...
>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:11 -0700, "ScottW" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
>>>>>> yet 100% secure or safe.
>>>>>
>>>>>What transaction is? You're far safer using a cc on-line
>>>>>than handing out cash at tower records.
>>>>
>>>> I've never been to Tower Records but it sounds like a dangerous place.
>>>
>>>All public places are more dangerous than my home.
>>>YMMV.
>>
>> Not when your wife's upset with you.
>
> I keep my wife happy...don't you?

You mean you can afford to get someone in?

>>>> I endorse what Dave says elsewhere. First you suffer a heart attack
>>>> after noticing all your money is gone. Then you wait forever while the
>>>> bank decides to reimburse you, if you're lucky. Of course I trade on
>>>> the Internet all the time, but I can well understand people having
>>>> qualms and you should too.
>>>
>>> If you think the above happens through CC fraud....
>>>you're daft.
>>
>> You mean there's no chance of me having a heart attack when I first
>> discover my account is empty?
>
>You should be used to it by now.

Point!

ScottW

October 15th 06, 06:14 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:49:30 -0700, "ScottW" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:11 -0700, "ScottW" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Contrary to what you've been led
>>>>>>>> to believe, TONS of music fans don't download, don't
>>>>>>>> order online, still don't like to enter their credit
>>>>>>>> card on a web page,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This last is the greatest impediment. Until they can
>>>>>>> guarantee security this will be a real stumbing block to
>>>>>>> online sales growth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hmm did I say that Paul is paranoid?
>>>>>
>>>>> Simple fact apparently unknown to Mr. Krueger: online trading is not
>>>>> yet 100% secure or safe.
>>>>
>>>>What transaction is? You're far safer using a cc on-line
>>>>than handing out cash at tower records.
>>>>
>>>>> Turn off the soldering iron and watch the
>>>>> news occasionally.
>>>>
>>>>Here are some some simple facts.
>>>>1) Is the account holder liable for fraudulent charges on his account?
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>>2) Is the volume of abuse in numbers sufficient that the credit card
>>>>issuers (the ones that bear the cost) interested in more secure
>>>>forms of transactions?
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>>I was really surprised in hearing this second item in a presentation
>>>>on new forms of e-commerce. But apparently it is true.
>>>>The credit cards companies
>>>>are making so much money the few billions lost to fraud doesn't impact
>>>>their profits close to 1 percent. The systems put in place over the last
>>>>few decades to support cc transactions
>>>>would cost hundreds of times that to replace.
>>>>
>>>>All you have to do to safely use your credit card is look over your
>>>>statement before you pay the bill. If anything is amiss, report it
>>>>and don't pay it.
>>>
>>> You sort of left out identity theft.
>>
>>Identity theft doesn't come from on-line CC transactions.
>
> http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/idtheft.html
>
>>Most ID theft comes from stolen mail or phishing.
>
> And your point is?

Is repetition necessary? On-line cc transactions
doesn't result in ID theft. You may get fraudulent charges
on your CC account but you aren't liable for those
if you report them when you get your statement.
Simple as that.

>
>>> And even if you discover it
>>> immediately, sometimes it's YEARS before you can get it sorted out.
>>> Can it be done in other ways? Sure. They can go through your trash.
>>> But it still doesn't mitigate the fears that some have about
>>> transmitting sensitive financial data over the internet.
>>
>>I don't consider the data required for an on line transaction...
>>sensitive.
>
> You don't consider your credit card number sensitive?

No I don't. I give it to waiters all the time without concern.

ScottW