Behringer A500 Amplifier..

[Jeffrae]

How would this Amplifier do for home use?

I currently use an AudioSource AMP 3 to drive my Dahlquist DQ-20

The A500 looks like it has decent specs. I also know that some
companies specs are not accurate.


Jeff

[Arny Krueger]

"Jeffrae" > wrote in message
ups.com

> How would this Amplifier do for home use?

Just fine.

> I currently use an AudioSource AMP 3 to drive my
> Dahlquist DQ-20

So you already have one 150 wpc (nominal) power amp.

> The A500 looks like it has decent specs. I also know
> that some companies specs are not accurate.

Word has it that as a home audio power amp, the A500 is not that dissimilar
from what you already have, in terms of power. Some report it at about 130
wpc.

[Eeyore]

Jeffrae wrote:

> How would this Amplifier do for home use?
>
> I currently use an AudioSource AMP 3 to drive my Dahlquist DQ-20
>
> The A500 looks like it has decent specs. I also know that some
> companies specs are not accurate.

What kind of amplifier are you seeking ?

I'm sure it's 'fine' in an uncritical sense of the meaning but don't
expect it to be ultra revealing.

Graham

[Jeffrae]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Jeffrae" > wrote in message
> ups.com
>
> > How would this Amplifier do for home use?
>
> Just fine.
>
> > I currently use an AudioSource AMP 3 to drive my
> > Dahlquist DQ-20
>
> So you already have one 150 wpc (nominal) power amp.

Yes supposibly. Not sure how true AudioSources specs are..
To me it sounds like a Decent Amplifier.

> > The A500 looks like it has decent specs. I also know
> > that some companies specs are not accurate.
>
> Word has it that as a home audio power amp, the A500 is not that dissimilar
> from what you already have, in terms of power. Some report it at about 130
> wpc.

I wanted to get two of these..

Here is my reasoning.. I ran 1 of my speakers in bridged mode on my Amp
Three.. The extra head room really seamed to open up the bass responce
of my Dahlquists..

It is as if they like the power. Not for the loudness, but for the
bass responce.

I would get another Amp Three, but I think AudioSource discontinues
these.. Plus the Behringer looks like it is a great deal.. I can get
two of these for a little more then the Amp 3's

Jeff

[Arny Krueger]

"Jeffrae" > wrote in message
ups.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Jeffrae" > wrote in message
>> ups.com
>>
>>> How would this Amplifier do for home use?
>>
>> Just fine.
>>
>>> I currently use an AudioSource AMP 3 to drive my
>>> Dahlquist DQ-20
>>
>> So you already have one 150 wpc (nominal) power amp.
>
> Yes supposibly. Not sure how true AudioSources specs
> are..
> To me it sounds like a Decent Amplifier.
>
>>> The A500 looks like it has decent specs. I also know
>>> that some companies specs are not accurate.
>>
>> Word has it that as a home audio power amp, the A500 is
>> not that dissimilar from what you already have, in terms
>> of power. Some report it at about 130 wpc.
>
> I wanted to get two of these..


Oh!


> Here is my reasoning.. I ran 1 of my speakers in bridged
> mode on my Amp Three.. The extra head room really seemed
> to open up the bass responce of my Dahlquists..

Well you must really push those Dahlquists. Will they take the bridged power
of the Behr amps? If so, upgrading to a pair of them could make some sense.

> It is as if they like the power. Not for the loudness,
> but for the bass response.

I don't know about that.

> I would get another Amp Three, but I think AudioSource
> discontinues these.. Plus the Behringer looks like it is
> a great deal.. I can get two of these for a little more
> then the Amp 3's

The Behringer are a good value. I've got an application for them that I'm
waiting for the client to be able to fund.

[Jeffrae]

Eeyore wrote:
> Jeffrae wrote:
>
> > How would this Amplifier do for home use?
> >
> > I currently use an AudioSource AMP 3 to drive my Dahlquist DQ-20
> >
> > The A500 looks like it has decent specs. I also know that some
> > companies specs are not accurate.
>
> What kind of amplifier are you seeking ?
>
> I'm sure it's 'fine' in an uncritical sense of the meaning but don't
> expect it to be ultra revealing.
>
> Graham

Something that would make my Dahlquists really open up..

[Eeyore]

Jeffrae wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > Jeffrae wrote:
> >
> > > How would this Amplifier do for home use?
> > >
> > > I currently use an AudioSource AMP 3 to drive my Dahlquist DQ-20
> > >
> > > The A500 looks like it has decent specs. I also know that some
> > > companies specs are not accurate.
> >
> > What kind of amplifier are you seeking ?
> >
> > I'm sure it's 'fine' in an uncritical sense of the meaning but don't
> > expect it to be ultra revealing.
> >
> > Graham
>
> Something that would make my Dahlquists really open up..

I'd give it a whirl. The value for money is very good.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

> And incidentally, the failure rate of Behringer pieces is
> astronomical.

It is ? What's your source for that ?

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message

> "Eeyore" > wrote
> in message ...
>>
>>
>> Soundhaspriority wrote:
>>
>>> And incidentally, the failure rate of Behringer pieces
>>> is astronomical.
>>
>> It is ? What's your source for that ?
>>
>> Graham
>>
> Survey of newsgroups, discussions with salesmen at the
> largest A/V emporium in the world -- prefer not name,
> since they distribute the stuff.

Ah, the source of all truth - sales men.

Now, I understand. ;-)

> But Graham, why would it
> be a surprise? They manufacture in China, which is no
> sin, but the prices are so incredibly low it's obvious
> they also source the parts from low bidders there also.

I've taken the covers off a number of pieces of Behringer gear. What I see
is far from the bottom of the barrel.

> You remember the joke about the government
> [plane/tank/gun], "...and it was made by the lowest
> bidder." ? There are doubtless good Chinese electrolytic
> makers, but there is another kind of parts manufacture
> there, for which they are justifiably infamous.

I've run into some bottom-of-the-barrel Chinese gear, but Behringer isn't
it. I've never had to repair a Behringer piece because one end of a critical
part was completely unsoldered, for example.

> They are also disliked because they rip off designs lock
> stock and barrel.

This has been investigated thoroughly, and found to be not quite the case.
They do have novel and well-done original designs, and they have made stuff
that superficially resembled competitive gear, and did so quite closely. But
in the end, there were significant differences, not all of which were
completely obvious. And, they are far from being alone in doing that.

> Not as in "imitation is the sincerest
> form of flattery", but as in, "we'll copy it down to the
> last nut, trade on your reputation, and undersell you by
> 65% by substituting inferior parts."

Other than having a couple of ECM 8000s change sensitivity pretty
dramatically, which is life with low-cost electret capsules, and a digital
equalizer that failed after about a decade, their stuff has been perfect
for me. I don't have a ton of it, but it all keeps ticking.

> I broke down and
> spent $30 US for their cable tester. It is a carbon of
> the original design, also sitting in the glass case for
> $80. I figured, $30 what-the-hell. But no more.

Their cable tester may be a carbon paper copy, but carbon paper copies
aren't exact. It's possible that the $80 origional will last a hard-working
roadie a long time, and be worth every penny to him. It's possible that this
roadie would demolish the Behringer in a few weeks or months. But, for most
people who test a few cables a year, the Behringer is just what they need.

I sit on a cable farm that is composed of about 100 mic cables, which is
probably far more than most people. If I had the Behringer box, I would only
need it a few times a year.

[Jeffrae]

Soundhaspriority wrote:
> "Jeffrae" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Eeyore wrote:
> >> Jeffrae wrote:
> >>
> >> > How would this Amplifier do for home use?
> >> >
> >> > I currently use an AudioSource AMP 3 to drive my Dahlquist DQ-20
> >> >
> >> > The A500 looks like it has decent specs. I also know that some
> >> > companies specs are not accurate.
> >>
> >> What kind of amplifier are you seeking ?
> >>
> >> I'm sure it's 'fine' in an uncritical sense of the meaning but don't
> >> expect it to be ultra revealing.
> >>
> >> Graham
> >
> > Something that would make my Dahlquists really open up..
> >
> Not that. And incidentally, the failure rate of Behringer pieces is
> astronomical.
> The AudioSource amp is also a notably bad amp, one with very significant,
> detrimental sonic character. You need to get rid of the AudioSource, and
> stay away from Behringer.

Sorry for actually liking my AudioSource AmpThree.. I have it hooked
up to some Missions right now in the office..

Jeff

[Jeffrae]

Soundhaspriority wrote:
> "Jeffrae" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Soundhaspriority wrote:
> >> "Jeffrae" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> >
> >> > Eeyore wrote:
> >> >> Jeffrae wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > How would this Amplifier do for home use?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I currently use an AudioSource AMP 3 to drive my Dahlquist DQ-20
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The A500 looks like it has decent specs. I also know that some
> >> >> > companies specs are not accurate.
> >> >>
> >> >> What kind of amplifier are you seeking ?
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm sure it's 'fine' in an uncritical sense of the meaning but don't
> >> >> expect it to be ultra revealing.
> >> >>
> >> >> Graham
> >> >
> >> > Something that would make my Dahlquists really open up..
> >> >
> >> Not that. And incidentally, the failure rate of Behringer pieces is
> >> astronomical.
> >> The AudioSource amp is also a notably bad amp, one with very significant,
> >> detrimental sonic character. You need to get rid of the AudioSource, and
> >> stay away from Behringer.
> >
> > Sorry for actually liking my AudioSource AmpThree.. I have it hooked
> > up to some Missions right now in the office..
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> Don't be sorry. But your next step up will have you ecstatic.

What would be the next step up?

[MD]

Jeffrae wrote:
> How would this Amplifier do for home use?
>
> I currently use an AudioSource AMP 3 to drive my Dahlquist DQ-20
>
> The A500 looks like it has decent specs. I also know that some
> companies specs are not accurate.
>
>
> Jeff
>
I own a Behringer FBQ 2496 - while I like the unit a lot and the price
was great Behringer doesn't come close to using good parts. They
minimize where they can. While this might work in a DSP for room
correction I wouldn't trust that paradigm in an amp. Especially when
there are great deals out there - Outlaw, NAD, Cambridge Audio and the
used market.

[ScottW]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> Soundhaspriority wrote:
>>
>>> And incidentally, the failure rate of Behringer pieces is
>>> astronomical.
>>
>> It is ? What's your source for that ?
>>
>> Graham
>>
> Survey of newsgroups, discussions with salesmen at the largest A/V emporium in
> the world -- prefer not name, since they distribute the stuff. But Graham, why
> would it be a surprise? They manufacture in China, which is no sin, but the
> prices are so incredibly low it's obvious they also source the parts from low
> bidders there also. You remember the joke about the government
> [plane/tank/gun], "...and it was made by the lowest bidder." ? There are
> doubtless good Chinese electrolytic makers, but there is another kind of parts
> manufacture there, for which they are justifiably infamous.

You've nailed it...China covers the spectrum from best to worst.
Unfortunately...Chinese best is equal and in some cases better
than the rest of the world.
You need to face facts...you simply can't justifiably diss something for
being made in China.

BTW...those cheap crappy Chinese components are being
used in assembly shops all over the world.

ScottW

[Eeyore]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

> Especially after the great motherboard cap debacle.

Tell me more about this.

Graham

[ScottW]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> news:AMwTg.1802$fl.1699@dukeread08...
>>
>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Soundhaspriority wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And incidentally, the failure rate of Behringer pieces is
>>>>> astronomical.
>>>>
>>>> It is ? What's your source for that ?
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>> Survey of newsgroups, discussions with salesmen at the largest A/V emporium
>>> in the world -- prefer not name, since they distribute the stuff. But
>>> Graham, why would it be a surprise? They manufacture in China, which is no
>>> sin, but the prices are so incredibly low it's obvious they also source the
>>> parts from low bidders there also. You remember the joke about the
>>> government [plane/tank/gun], "...and it was made by the lowest bidder." ?
>>> There are doubtless good Chinese electrolytic makers, but there is another
>>> kind of parts manufacture there, for which they are justifiably infamous.
>>
>> You've nailed it...China covers the spectrum from best to worst.
>> Unfortunately...Chinese best is equal and in some cases better
>> than the rest of the world.
>
> Sure.
>
>> You need to face facts...you simply can't justifiably diss something for
>> being made in China.
>>
> Of course not. It's just that it is cheap even for being made in China, plus
> the notable unreliability, that suggests that a lot of substandard parts are
> in those things.
>> BTW...those cheap crappy Chinese components are being
>> used in assembly shops all over the world.
>>
>> ScottW
> Yes, and no. When a company spends more for labor, or cares more about quality
> than Behringer, they make a concerted effort to screen them out. Especially
> after the great motherboard cap debacle.

Until they start losing market share to Behringer and they face the
inevitable....price rules for the largest market segment.


ScottW

[ScottW]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> Soundhaspriority wrote:
>>
>>> Especially after the great motherboard cap debacle.
>>
>> Tell me more about this.
>>
>> Graham
>>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

The recent RoHS rules implemented in Europe also
creating a cap reliability problem.

Only one (Nichikon) that I know of has a line
of surface mount electrolytics that can reliably
survive the higher reflow temps required by Pb
free solders.
How many manufacturers will go to the added
expense of redesigning their boards for thru-hole
and a secondary operation of installing and soldering
leaded caps until electrolytics catch up with
current solder requirements?

ScottW

[ScottW]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> news:oXyTg.1818$fl.1670@dukeread08...
>>
>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Soundhaspriority wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Especially after the great motherboard cap debacle.
>>>>
>>>> Tell me more about this.
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
>>
>> The recent RoHS rules implemented in Europe also
>> creating a cap reliability problem.
>>
>> Only one (Nichikon) that I know of has a line
>> of surface mount electrolytics that can reliably
>> survive the higher reflow temps required by Pb
>> free solders.
>> How many manufacturers will go to the added
>> expense of redesigning their boards for thru-hole
>> and a secondary operation of installing and soldering
>> leaded caps until electrolytics catch up with
>> current solder requirements?
>>
>> ScottW
> IMHO, the lead problem should have been solved by an aggressive recycling
> program, not by switching to lead-free, which may result in reliability
> compromises that will never be solved.

Our testing has shown the typical lead free alloys SnAgCu actually
are stronger and more resistant to thermal induced cracking
or joint fatigue than leaded solders.
The drawback is it is not as compliant
and therefore more brittle. Shock and drop tests
are sometimes a problem.

BTW..its a lot more than lead being taken out of use.
Hexavalent chromium is also a good one to be rid of.

ScottW

[ScottW]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> news:NnzTg.1819$fl.16@dukeread08...
>>
>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>> news:oXyTg.1818$fl.1670@dukeread08...
>>>>
>>>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Soundhaspriority wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Especially after the great motherboard cap debacle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell me more about this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Graham
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
>>>>
>>>> The recent RoHS rules implemented in Europe also
>>>> creating a cap reliability problem.
>>>>
>>>> Only one (Nichikon) that I know of has a line
>>>> of surface mount electrolytics that can reliably
>>>> survive the higher reflow temps required by Pb
>>>> free solders.
>>>> How many manufacturers will go to the added
>>>> expense of redesigning their boards for thru-hole
>>>> and a secondary operation of installing and soldering
>>>> leaded caps until electrolytics catch up with
>>>> current solder requirements?
>>>>
>>>> ScottW
>>> IMHO, the lead problem should have been solved by an aggressive recycling
>>> program, not by switching to lead-free, which may result in reliability
>>> compromises that will never be solved.
>>
>> Our testing has shown the typical lead free alloys SnAgCu actually
>> are stronger and more resistant to thermal induced cracking
>> or joint fatigue than leaded solders.
>> The drawback is it is not as compliant
>> and therefore more brittle. Shock and drop tests
>> are sometimes a problem.
>>
>> BTW..its a lot more than lead being taken out of use.
>> Hexavalent chromium is also a good one to be rid of.
>>
>> ScottW
> What about "tin disease" ? Over time, pure tin crumbles into dust:
> http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C10/C10Links/chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa040300a.htm
> The new solders are not pure tin, but they contain more tin. Is it possible
> this allotropic transformation will affect them too?

This only happens at cold temps and only to pure tin.
People that are tied to the use of indium in
pb free solders are raising this as a "potential issue"
but no one has reported it in any test results and I've
seen data out to 6000 thermal cycles (2 years test duration)
so thats year at cold followed by cross sections.
Nothing negative to show for it.

Tin whiskers is a bigger risk IMO...but that too isn't
an issue.

ScottW

[Eeyore]

ScottW wrote:

> The recent RoHS rules implemented in Europe also
> creating a cap reliability problem.
>
> Only one (Nichikon) that I know of has a line
> of surface mount electrolytics that can reliably
> survive the higher reflow temps required by Pb
> free solders.
> How many manufacturers will go to the added
> expense of redesigning their boards for thru-hole
> and a secondary operation of installing and soldering
> leaded caps until electrolytics catch up with
> current solder requirements?

Cite ? I'm genuinely intruiged if this is true.


Graham

[Eeyore]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

> IMHO, the lead problem should have been solved by an aggressive recycling
> program, not by switching to lead-free

You clot !

The rationale for lead-free is precisely the drive for recycling ( in the
legislators' vacant minds ). The recycling that few companies want to do
because there's no useful profit in it ! Which is why it's been impossble to
introduce RoHS in a meaningful timescale with proper government advice.


> , which may result in reliability
> compromises that will never be solved.

Yes. Reduced product lifetime will cause a far greater waste of resources and
energy and in a few years, if not sorted a collosal consumer backlash.

Graham

[Eeyore]

ScottW wrote:

> Our testing has shown the typical lead free alloys SnAgCu actually
> are stronger and more resistant to thermal induced cracking
> or joint fatigue than leaded solders.
> The drawback is it is not as compliant
> and therefore more brittle. Shock and drop tests
> are sometimes a problem.

There's a heck of a lot more than that to it ! Notably tin whiskers. Tin
whiskers is one reason why solder included lead in the first place !


> BTW..its a lot more than lead being taken out of use.
> Hexavalent chromium is also a good one to be rid of.

So why is lead the one being kicked hardest ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

ScottW wrote:

> Tin whiskers..... isn't an issue.

Fathead.

Graham

[Mr Fox]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:17:33 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:

>>> Soundhaspriority wrote:
>>>
>>>> And incidentally, the failure rate of Behringer pieces is
>>>> astronomical.
>>>
>>> It is ? What's your source for that ?
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>> Survey of newsgroups, discussions with salesmen at the largest A/V emporium in
>> the world -- prefer not name, since they distribute the stuff. But Graham, why
>> would it be a surprise? They manufacture in China, which is no sin, but the
>> prices are so incredibly low it's obvious they also source the parts from low
>> bidders there also. You remember the joke about the government
>> [plane/tank/gun], "...and it was made by the lowest bidder." ? There are
>> doubtless good Chinese electrolytic makers, but there is another kind of parts
>> manufacture there, for which they are justifiably infamous.
>
> You've nailed it...China covers the spectrum from best to worst.
>Unfortunately...Chinese best is equal and in some cases better
>than the rest of the world.
>You need to face facts...you simply can't justifiably diss something for
>being made in China.

Farming out production to China is so widespread now it undermines
start up businesses, takes jobs from our labor forces, has bred a
culture of price oriented materialistic consumers' _and_ the concept
of disposable products. Not to mention the environment impact of all
this. You can hardly blame a company for taking what is often the only
viable route these days, but its not a good trend in my opinion.

Now I was looking at buying a digital desk, what do we think of the
DDX3216? Its so cheap its hard NOT to consider it, but being a
Behringer I don't know if I could like with the shame.

[ScottW]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> news:k0ATg.1822$fl.1617@dukeread08...
>>
>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>> news:NnzTg.1819$fl.16@dukeread08...
>>>>
>>>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>>>> news:oXyTg.1818$fl.1670@dukeread08...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Soundhaspriority wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Especially after the great motherboard cap debacle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tell me more about this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Graham
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The recent RoHS rules implemented in Europe also
>>>>>> creating a cap reliability problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only one (Nichikon) that I know of has a line
>>>>>> of surface mount electrolytics that can reliably
>>>>>> survive the higher reflow temps required by Pb
>>>>>> free solders.
>>>>>> How many manufacturers will go to the added
>>>>>> expense of redesigning their boards for thru-hole
>>>>>> and a secondary operation of installing and soldering
>>>>>> leaded caps until electrolytics catch up with
>>>>>> current solder requirements?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ScottW
>>>>> IMHO, the lead problem should have been solved by an aggressive recycling
>>>>> program, not by switching to lead-free, which may result in reliability
>>>>> compromises that will never be solved.
>>>>
>>>> Our testing has shown the typical lead free alloys SnAgCu actually
>>>> are stronger and more resistant to thermal induced cracking
>>>> or joint fatigue than leaded solders.
>>>> The drawback is it is not as compliant
>>>> and therefore more brittle. Shock and drop tests
>>>> are sometimes a problem.
>>>>
>>>> BTW..its a lot more than lead being taken out of use.
>>>> Hexavalent chromium is also a good one to be rid of.
>>>>
>>>> ScottW
>>> What about "tin disease" ? Over time, pure tin crumbles into dust:
>>> http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C10/C10Links/chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa040300a.htm
>>> The new solders are not pure tin, but they contain more tin. Is it possible
>>> this allotropic transformation will affect them too?
>>
>> This only happens at cold temps and only to pure tin.
>
> Not true as far as pure tin: "Tin alloys are thus more resistant to tin
> disease." By implication, tin alloys do get it.

Do you always accept implications as proof?

ScottW

[ScottW]

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> ScottW wrote:
>
>> Our testing has shown the typical lead free alloys SnAgCu actually
>> are stronger and more resistant to thermal induced cracking
>> or joint fatigue than leaded solders.
>> The drawback is it is not as compliant
>> and therefore more brittle. Shock and drop tests
>> are sometimes a problem.
>
> There's a heck of a lot more than that to it ! Notably tin whiskers. Tin
> whiskers is one reason why solder included lead in the first place !
>
>
>> BTW..its a lot more than lead being taken out of use.
>> Hexavalent chromium is also a good one to be rid of.
>
> So why is lead the one being kicked hardest ?

Its the one that is the most widely used.

ScottW

[ScottW]

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> ScottW wrote:
>
>> The recent RoHS rules implemented in Europe also
>> creating a cap reliability problem.
>>
>> Only one (Nichikon) that I know of has a line
>> of surface mount electrolytics that can reliably
>> survive the higher reflow temps required by Pb
>> free solders.
>> How many manufacturers will go to the added
>> expense of redesigning their boards for thru-hole
>> and a secondary operation of installing and soldering
>> leaded caps until electrolytics catch up with
>> current solder requirements?
>
> Cite ? I'm genuinely intruiged if this is true.

Nic recently announced certifying caps to 250c
peak reflow temps. But they appear to want people to accept
can deformation in the process.

Heres a good paper on reflow profiles.
http://tinyurl.com/p6t7c

and Nic on cap reliability.
http://tinyurl.com/ohagc

You will note that everyone was citing can deformation
as a sign of a bad cap in the capacitor plague.

I'm sure the cap guys will all catch up but I suspect
that people will have to get used to electrolytics with
bulging tops as they will be coming off the CCA lines
like that in some can sizes.

ScottW

[Mr Fox]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 19:05:41 -0400, "Soundhaspriority"
> wrote:

>
>> viable route these days, but its not a good trend in my opinion.
>>
>> Now I was looking at buying a digital desk, what do we think of the
>> DDX3216? Its so cheap its hard NOT to consider it, but being a
>> Behringer I don't know if I could like with the shame.
>>
>Don't be ashamed, be worried. They don't live long.
>
Googled 'DDX3216' and 'reliability'..
You are right, it doesn't look good!

[Mr Fox]

On 1 Oct 2006 01:57:16 +0200, Mr Fox > wrote:

>>> viable route these days, but its not a good trend in my opinion.
>>>
>>> Now I was looking at buying a digital desk, what do we think of the
>>> DDX3216? Its so cheap its hard NOT to consider it, but being a
>>> Behringer I don't know if I could like with the shame.
>>>
>>Don't be ashamed, be worried. They don't live long.
>>
>Googled 'DDX3216' and 'reliability'..
> You are right, it doesn't look good!

OK loads of problems. Power supplies overheating or dying, channels
going dead, locking up, not booting. Needs shipping bacl to germany if
theres an issue. No thanks! Yamaha or Tascam instead. Do you have a
preference? I'm thinking used 01V96 or DM24.

[ScottW]

"Mr Fox" > wrote in message
...
> On 1 Oct 2006 01:57:16 +0200, Mr Fox > wrote:
>
>>>> viable route these days, but its not a good trend in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Now I was looking at buying a digital desk, what do we think of the
>>>> DDX3216? Its so cheap its hard NOT to consider it, but being a
>>>> Behringer I don't know if I could like with the shame.
>>>>
>>>Don't be ashamed, be worried. They don't live long.
>>>
>>Googled 'DDX3216' and 'reliability'..
>> You are right, it doesn't look good!
>
> OK loads of problems. Power supplies overheating or dying,
> channels
> going dead, locking up, not booting.

From what I read in the logs this seems to have been corrected.
One guy reported a simple fan in the cooling slots solved his
overheating.

> Needs shipping bacl to germany if
> theres an issue.

This too has been reported as corrected.
I suggest you contact Behringer to see if this remains
the case. There are reports of people getting theirs fixed
without return to Germany.

> No thanks! Yamaha or Tascam instead. Do you have a
> preference? I'm thinking used 01V96

Clearly a superior design but at significant cost.
New ones are 3 times the cost of a Behringer.
I see a used one on E-bay already bid to over 600.

ScottW

[ScottW]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>> This only happens at cold temps and only to pure tin.
>>>
>>> Not true as far as pure tin: "Tin alloys are thus more resistant to tin
>>> disease." By implication, tin alloys do get it.
>>
>> Do you always accept implications as proof?
>>
>> ScottW
> No, but in this case, I'll take it over your assertion. No offense intended.

For $200 you can see the data or for free you can believe the implications
of a guy associated with the indium industry and remain a blithering
idiot.

http://www.electronics.ca/reports/electronics_manufacturing/lead_free.html

ScottW

[Mr Fox]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 19:29:30 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:

>
>"Mr Fox" > wrote in message
...
>> On 1 Oct 2006 01:57:16 +0200, Mr Fox > wrote:
>>
>>>>> viable route these days, but its not a good trend in my opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I was looking at buying a digital desk, what do we think of the
>>>>> DDX3216? Its so cheap its hard NOT to consider it, but being a
>>>>> Behringer I don't know if I could like with the shame.
>>>>>
>>>>Don't be ashamed, be worried. They don't live long.
>>>>
>>>Googled 'DDX3216' and 'reliability'..
>>> You are right, it doesn't look good!
>>
>> OK loads of problems. Power supplies overheating or dying,
>> channels
>> going dead, locking up, not booting.
>
> From what I read in the logs this seems to have been corrected.
>One guy reported a simple fan in the cooling slots solved his
>overheating.

"this"?

I mentioned 5 seperate issues.

I am not into gear that I have to modify to make it work reliably.
Give me something that is designed and manufactured properly in the
first place.


>
>> Needs shipping bacl to germany if
>> theres an issue.
>
>This too has been reported as corrected.
>I suggest you contact Behringer to see if this remains
>the case. There are reports of people getting theirs fixed
>without return to Germany.

Considering all the problems this desk is afflicted with; not
interested.

>
>> No thanks! Yamaha or Tascam instead. Do you have a
>> preference? I'm thinking used 01V96
>
>Clearly a superior design but at significant cost.
>New ones are 3 times the cost of a Behringer.
>I see a used one on E-bay already bid to over 600.
>

Sounds cheap at three times the price, if it means I wont have to
worry about the thing crapping out in the middle of a gig.

[Mr Fox]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 22:35:17 -0400, "Soundhaspriority"
> wrote:

>
>If you don't need a lot of channels, the Tascam FW-1024 has impressive
>build quality. Can be had from B&H for $559. But one of the new decks, can't
>remember which, has an interesting feature: a mode where the faders function
>as trim pots, ie, for ease in gain riding, useful for location recording. On
>most digital decks, the faders function strictly as a control surface for
>the software. The FW-1024 does have a mode where the faders mix a 2 channel
>"confidence mix", but that's not terribly relevant any more.


Thanks for this. I couldnt find the 1024 but did find a 1082. Looks a
bit weird; have to read up on it.

Mainly I am looking for something that is fairly intuitive to use, as
in not having to scroll through loads of menus to make simple
adjustements. I am used to analog desks ;) Have enjoyed both the TM
D1000 and Mackie DB8 in this respect, though the DB8 is outside my
budget. Older Yamahas desks (eg O2r) seemed a bit fiddly thouhg I
haven't used a recent one.

[Eeyore]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

> "Mr Fox" > wrote in message
>
> > Now I was looking at buying a digital desk, what do we think of the
> > DDX3216? Its so cheap its hard NOT to consider it, but being a
> > Behringer I don't know if I could like with the shame.
> >
> Don't be ashamed, be worried. They don't live long.

Nor are they designed to be serviced either ! In fact Behringer *won't* supply
schematics so you have to use their appointed service agents.

Graham

[Eeyore]

ScottW wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote
> > ScottW wrote:
> >
> >> Our testing has shown the typical lead free alloys SnAgCu actually
> >> are stronger and more resistant to thermal induced cracking
> >> or joint fatigue than leaded solders.
> >> The drawback is it is not as compliant
> >> and therefore more brittle. Shock and drop tests
> >> are sometimes a problem.
> >
> > There's a heck of a lot more than that to it ! Notably tin whiskers. Tin
> > whiskers is one reason why solder included lead in the first place !
> >
> >> BTW..its a lot more than lead being taken out of use.
> >> Hexavalent chromium is also a good one to be rid of.
> >
> > So why is lead the one being kicked hardest ?
>
> Its the one that is the most widely used.

You mean it's the easiest one to target ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

Mr Fox wrote:

> On 1 Oct 2006 01:57:16 +0200, Mr Fox > wrote:
>
> >>> viable route these days, but its not a good trend in my opinion.
> >>>
> >>> Now I was looking at buying a digital desk, what do we think of the
> >>> DDX3216? Its so cheap its hard NOT to consider it, but being a
> >>> Behringer I don't know if I could like with the shame.
> >>>
> >>Don't be ashamed, be worried. They don't live long.
> >>
> >Googled 'DDX3216' and 'reliability'..
> > You are right, it doesn't look good!
>
> OK loads of problems. Power supplies overheating or dying, channels
> going dead, locking up, not booting. Needs shipping bacl to germany if
> theres an issue. No thanks! Yamaha or Tascam instead. Do you have a
> preference? I'm thinking used 01V96 or DM24.

Yammies are the ones the pro-guys like. They've become pretty much an
'industry standard'.

Graham

[ScottW]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> news:eWFTg.1855$fl.494@dukeread08...
>>
>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This only happens at cold temps and only to pure tin.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not true as far as pure tin: "Tin alloys are thus more resistant to tin
>>>>> disease." By implication, tin alloys do get it.
>>>>
>>>> Do you always accept implications as proof?
>>>>
>>>> ScottW
>>> No, but in this case, I'll take it over your assertion. No offense intended.
>>
>> For $200 you can see the data or for free you can believe the implications
>> of a guy associated with the indium industry and remain a blithering
>> idiot.
>>
>> http://www.electronics.ca/reports/electronics_manufacturing/lead_free.html
>>
>> ScottW
> Scott, I'm going to save you $200, but I can't save you the blow to your
> towering ego:
> http://www.klabs.org/richcontent/Reliability/plague_general/tin_plague_jan_2005.doc

How many times you going to provide the same report that for some strange
reason uses a silver free alloy? If he wanted to make a relevant point,
you'd think Mr. Kostic would have used a typical lead free solder alloy
and not a cast part. Wanna bet your GSM cell phones have lead free solder
in them?

ScottW

[Eeyore]

ScottW wrote:

> How many times you going to provide the same report that for some strange
> reason uses a silver free alloy? If he wanted to make a relevant point,
> you'd think Mr. Kostic would have used a typical lead free solder alloy
> and not a cast part.

The typical lead-free solder in the UK contains no silver.


> Wanna bet your GSM cell phones have lead free solder in them?

They also now have notoriously short lifetimes.

Graham

[ScottW]

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> ScottW wrote:
>
>> How many times you going to provide the same report that for some strange
>> reason uses a silver free alloy? If he wanted to make a relevant point,
>> you'd think Mr. Kostic would have used a typical lead free solder alloy
>> and not a cast part.
>
> The typical lead-free solder in the UK contains no silver.

And what would that be, Sn-Bi?
>
>
>> Wanna bet your GSM cell phones have lead free solder in them?
>
> They also now have notoriously short lifetimes.

Are you in the habit or storing your audio gear
below -18c?

ScottW

[Eeyore]

ScottW wrote:

> "Eeyore" > wrote
>
> > ScottW wrote:
> >
> >> How many times you going to provide the same report that for some strange
> >> reason uses a silver free alloy? If he wanted to make a relevant point,
> >> you'd think Mr. Kostic would have used a typical lead free solder alloy
> >> and not a cast part.
> >
> > The typical lead-free solder in the UK contains no silver.
>
> And what would that be, Sn-Bi?

Sn-Cu.


> >> Wanna bet your GSM cell phones have lead free solder in them?
> >
> > They also now have notoriously short lifetimes.
>
> Are you in the habit or storing your audio gear
> below -18c?

I wasn't talking about audio was I ?

Graham

[Bertie the Bunyip]

Eeyore > wrote in
:

>
>
> ScottW wrote:
>
>> How many times you going to provide the same report that for some
>> strange
>> reason uses a silver free alloy? If he wanted to make a relevant
>> point, you'd think Mr. Kostic would have used a typical lead free
>> solder alloy and not a cast part.
>
> The typical lead-free solder in the UK contains no silver.
>

At last a subject you might actually know something about.

Well, mayb ethat and toad sexing.


Fjukkwit

oops, almost forgot,


planespotting too.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in
:

>
> "Eeyore" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> ScottW wrote:
>>
>>> How many times you going to provide the same report that for some
>>> strange
>>> reason uses a silver free alloy? If he wanted to make a relevant
>>> point, you'd think Mr. Kostic would have used a typical lead free
>>> solder alloy and not a cast part.
>>
>> The typical lead-free solder in the UK contains no silver.
>>
>>
>>> Wanna bet your GSM cell phones have lead free solder in them?
>>
>> They also now have notoriously short lifetimes.
>>
>> Graham
>>
> Yes, they do. I don't have definite information on why. I have had an
> elastomeric keyboard failure in a Motorola Startac. But there is also
> the possibility that the microwave power transistors degrade. Phones
> do typically have an operating hours counter in them, which may be a
> hint.

ooops, I though the meant lead free soldiers. In that case he's talking
out of his ass again.

My Bad.

bertie

[ScottW]

Soundhaspriority wrote:
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> news:p2ZTg.1913$fl.66@dukeread08...
> >
> > "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> >> news:eWFTg.1855$fl.494@dukeread08...
> >>>
> >>> "Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This only happens at cold temps and only to pure tin.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not true as far as pure tin: "Tin alloys are thus more resistant to
> >>>>>> tin disease." By implication, tin alloys do get it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you always accept implications as proof?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ScottW
> >>>> No, but in this case, I'll take it over your assertion. No offense
> >>>> intended.
> >>>
> >>> For $200 you can see the data or for free you can believe the
> >>> implications
> >>> of a guy associated with the indium industry and remain a blithering
> >>> idiot.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.electronics.ca/reports/electronics_manufacturing/lead_free.html
> >>>
> >>> ScottW
> >> Scott, I'm going to save you $200, but I can't save you the blow to your
> >> towering ego:
> >> http://www.klabs.org/richcontent/Reliability/plague_general/tin_plague_jan_2005.doc
> >
> > How many times you going to provide the same report that for some strange
> > reason uses a silver free alloy?
>
> Wrong. From the report:
> "The alloying elements found in the most widely used lead-free solders are
> copper and silver. These form intermetallics with tin but do not prevent tin
> plague. Research at the Open University at Milton Keynes in the U.K. by
> Plumbridge and his associates have shown tin plague in some
> tin-silver-copper alloys. "
>
>
> > If he wanted to make a relevant point,
> > you'd think Mr. Kostic would have used a typical lead free solder alloy
> > and not a cast part.

Apparently your inability to address this point
caused enough stress for the following rant.

>
> Look, Scott, I can see you're barking furiously, and your little teeth are
> in danger of taking off a hangnail, so let's cut to the chase. Nobody is
> absolutely credible. Not you, not me, not anybody. Now it so happens I'm
> talking to you, who, for entirely legitimate reasons I'm sure, chooses not
> to reveal his name and work affiliation. In today's usenet, I don't blame
> you. Now, I have a choice in "believing" you, or Mr. Kostic, or simply
> weighing the evidence and not reaching a final conclusion,

Do that....I've checked the web and I find Kostics photos splattered
about
repeatedly. What I don't find is any independent confirmed results of
tin
plague in any of the pb free solder test reports available which are
too
numerous to count.

So ...in weighing the evidence the conclusion appears to be obvious.

> but with enough
> cautions if I ever have to make a decision.

Lol....I can see Bob going to the store and asking the sales
clerk...what solder alloy was used to build this?

ScottW

[Sander deWaal]

"Soundhaspriority" > said:


>As an example of the tradeoffs, MOSFET amplifiers, with a sole exception --
>the Acoustat Transnova design -- exhibit some compromise in bass definition,
>while providing much cleaner highs. If you feel your current sound is too
>"transistory", a MOSFET might be a good choice. OTOH, if you like the highs
>the way they are, but want cleaner mids, some of the older Parasound amps,
>available from eBay and Audiogon, might be cost effective. And the Hafler
>XL-280 is an excellent choice for delicate detail, though lacking the "slam"
>provided by some other choices.



Vertical MOSFETs biased in A, won't suffer from the above mentioned
problems.
It's rare to fins something like that in the marketplace today, I'm
afraid.


>Unfortunately, the particular amplifier category of your interest,
>moderately powered solid state, is rather neglected in terms of reasonable
>priced offerings. You're looking for pure, reasonable hifi, but the makers
>are off chasing the buck in more lucrative markets. But the used market is a
>goldmine for what you want.


In addition to what others already mentioned about the build quality
of Behringer: it isn't the worst out there, but they *are* made with
components that came from the cheapest source.

In some cases it might indeed mean that there are electrolytics in
there that will give up their ghost after half a year or so.

Again, it isn't necessarily so, but it can happen.

Incidentally, I recently came across a problem in the switch mode
power supplies of a certain range of M-audio products.
They buy them in China from the lowest contractor, and lo and behold,
there were fake electrolytics in them.
I immediately warned the service dept. of M-audio, and as a result,
probably a lot of power supplies of that type will be swapped.

And that's not the first time I ran across things like that.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Sander deWaal]

Sorry I'm late, had some work to finish.

"Soundhaspriority" > said:


>Can you name some products, not necessarily current, that use them? I'd like
>to become familiar with the sound quality.


I don't know any commercial products that uses class A MOSFETs, unless
the little French YBA Tigre did.

There as a Dutch manufacturer of audio electronics, Johan Ketelaar,
who used to build class A MOS monoblocks.

Haven't heard from him/them in at least 10 years.

DIY is the way to go.

I'm now exploring the class D path, very interesting stuff!
And susprisingly simple to build, once you get the right components!
;-)

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Sander deWaal]

Stuart Krivis > said:



>>I'm now exploring the class D path, very interesting stuff!
>>And susprisingly simple to build, once you get the right components!
>> ;-)


>Some of the modules out there are evidently pretty horrible. I hope
>you used Hypex ones. :-)


Uhhm.....I meant *designing and building* my own.
Any idiot can mount a pair of UcD400s in a case, bolt a tranny,
rectifier and some caps to it and start listening.


>Some very good comments are here:
>http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/amplifiers/SwitchingAmplifierBasics.php

>"Amplifier" A was evidently a boutique amp with a name beginning with
>"Nu." :-)


Nuforce?

Take a look here:
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/reviews/article/1828/
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/reviews/article/1831/

This is actually a good friend of mine.


>A friend of mine then wrote an article further looking into some of
>this:

>http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/amplifiers/SwitchingAmplifierIssues.php


Thanks, but since I have a long-existing contact with Bruno Putzeys
and Sander Sassen, I happen to know about the basics a bit already.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Sander deWaal]

Stuart Krivis > said:


>I've exchanged e-mail with Sander a couple of times. He points out
>that the emperor has no clothes on and people get rather angry. They
>called him some rather nasty things over on AudioCircle in fact.


Yup, he calls 'em like he sees 'em.
I was surprised he liked the sound of my deliberately de-tuned tube
amp, though...........

Ask him about the KT88 amp last saturday in Breda ;-)


>Cool, then you're way ahead of me. I just wanted to offer what I had.


It's part of my job, and an interesting and refreshing speed course in
solid state technology.

My hobby still is tube amps and hybrids, though I'm tempted to at
least design a switcher for the HV in my next tube project.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."