Tweeter Placement?

[Troy T.]

Hello,
Soon I am going to be purchasing the Rockford Fosgate P162S component
speakers.Those perticular speakers come with 4 tweeters and you can
mount them all on the speakers all off the speaker or both. What would
the best way to do that be, and where is the best place to mount the
tweeers? I am going to be putting them into a 1999 Dodge Dakota sport.
There are alot of different place that i can put them. I want my
system to be loud with good SQ. I am open to any options. Iv thought
about making something out of fiberglass or plexy.
Thank you in advance for any help!

TroyT.

[Jamie Pruden]

Hi Troy,

There are two schools of thought that LOVE to argue with each other:

1. Close to the Mid
2. High on the dash.

The benefits of number 1 are a better "integration" of the sound
(meaning the sources of the sound are close together so it sounds like
they're coming from the same place) and most times, an easier install.
The drawbacks are that the tweeter can end up pretty close to your
shoes, so you lose some high frequencies and if you have a passenger,
you'll end up not hearing something because they have thighs. ;)

The benefits of number 2 are a straighter shot to your ears (better
highs) and more flexibility in positioning the driver. The drawbacks
are a more difficult install and different path lengths from the
tweeter to the midrange in each door.

Here's my recommendation:

Get some of that double sided foam tape and try a number of positions
for the tweeters. Make sure the tape is removable. Listen to music
you're very familiar with to see if it sounds "right." Once you figure
out where the tweeters sound the best, try to install them as close to
that position as you can.

You can work out some of the difficulties listed above with time delay
(to correct the path lengths) and equalization (to boost the highs,)
but it's best to find the right place for the drivers in your car and
then EQ lightly.

YMMV.

smiles,
Jamie

On 2006-09-10 22:18:30 -0700, "Troy T." > said:

> Hello,
> Soon I am going to be purchasing the Rockford Fosgate P162S component
> speakers.Those perticular speakers come with 4 tweeters and you can
> mount them all on the speakers all off the speaker or both. What would
> the best way to do that be, and where is the best place to mount the
> tweeers? I am going to be putting them into a 1999 Dodge Dakota sport.
> There are alot of different place that i can put them. I want my
> system to be loud with good SQ. I am open to any options. Iv thought
> about making something out of fiberglass or plexy.
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> TroyT.

[Matt Ion]

Jamie Pruden wrote:
> Hi Troy,
>
> There are two schools of thought that LOVE to argue with each other:
>
> 1. Close to the Mid
> 2. High on the dash.
>
> The benefits of number 1 are a better "integration" of the sound
> (meaning the sources of the sound are close together so it sounds like
> they're coming from the same place) and most times, an easier install.
> The drawbacks are that the tweeter can end up pretty close to your
> shoes, so you lose some high frequencies and if you have a passenger,
> you'll end up not hearing something because they have thighs. ;)
>
> The benefits of number 2 are a straighter shot to your ears (better
> highs) and more flexibility in positioning the driver. The drawbacks are
> a more difficult install and different path lengths from the tweeter to
> the midrange in each door.

The downside to putting the tweeters up high is not just the path differences
between them and the woofers in the doors, but the difference in path length
between the two tweeters. Part of how the brain determines where a sound is
coming from is the time difference between when it arrives at each ear. The
higher the tweeters are, the sooner the sound arrives at your left ear (assuming
a standard left-drive car, of course), and the further to the left the
soundstage shifts. Even cranking the balance to the right will only partially
offset this effect - sound will register STRONGER from the right, but still
SOONER from the left, and the center of the sound image will still seem to be
more from the left.

Since the higher the frequency, the more directional it becomes, the aiming of
the tweeters also has a large effect on the sound stage - if they're on the dash
pointing straight back, you're a lot farther off-axis from the right tweeter,
and its level will be greatly reduced at the driver's position.

Obviously it's next to impossible to perfectly equalize the lengths of the sound
paths, left and right, but the effect can be minimized by reducing the
DIFFERENCE between the paths. Example: if the left tweeter is 2 feet from you,
and the right tweeter is 6 feet away, that's a 3:1 ratio and will sound pretty
lopsided. If you can extend the distances to 4 feet on the left and 8 feet on
the right, that's only a 2:1 ratio and will sound a little more balanced
(obviously 1:1 is the ideal).

For this reason, you'll often find cars with the best staging put the speakers
in the kick panels, often using custom pods to locate the woofers there as well
as the tweeters (see option #1, above :). Here are a couple examples:

http://www.usdaudio.com/products/kp.php
http://www.pbase.com/gino/kickpods

http://www.cardiscountstereos.com/PDF_Files/Install%20Part%202.pdf#search=%22speaker%20kick%20 panel%20pods%22
(excellent article along with this one)

[MOSFET]

> 1. Close to the Mid
> 2. High on the dash.
>
> The benefits of number 1 are a better "integration" of the sound
> (meaning the sources of the sound are close together so it sounds like
> they're coming from the same place) and most times, an easier install.
> The drawbacks are that the tweeter can end up pretty close to your
> shoes, so you lose some high frequencies and if you have a passenger,
> you'll end up not hearing something because they have thighs. ;)
>
> The benefits of number 2 are a straighter shot to your ears (better
> highs) and more flexibility in positioning the driver. The drawbacks
> are a more difficult install and different path lengths from the
> tweeter to the midrange in each door.
>
> Here's my recommendation:
>
> Get some of that double sided foam tape and try a number of positions
> for the tweeters. Make sure the tape is removable. Listen to music
> you're very familiar with to see if it sounds "right." Once you figure
> out where the tweeters sound the best, try to install them as close to
> that position as you can.
>
I think this is very good advice. Matt also touched on some important
psycho-acoustic principles that is certainly worth considering. But I
wouldn't get too hung up on issues of path length, on/off-axis and so on.
As Jamie suggested, the best approach is experimentation in your car and do
what sounds best to you (I mean, YOU'RE the one who has to live with it, not
us). Try a bunch of different tweeter locations with the double sticky tape
with music you know REALLY well. Do what sounds best to you.

My $.02,

MOSFET

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
>>1. Close to the Mid
>>2. High on the dash.
>>
>>The benefits of number 1 are a better "integration" of the sound
>>(meaning the sources of the sound are close together so it sounds like
>>they're coming from the same place) and most times, an easier install.
>>The drawbacks are that the tweeter can end up pretty close to your
>>shoes, so you lose some high frequencies and if you have a passenger,
>>you'll end up not hearing something because they have thighs. ;)
>>
>>The benefits of number 2 are a straighter shot to your ears (better
>>highs) and more flexibility in positioning the driver. The drawbacks
>>are a more difficult install and different path lengths from the
>>tweeter to the midrange in each door.
>>
>>Here's my recommendation:
>>
>>Get some of that double sided foam tape and try a number of positions
>>for the tweeters. Make sure the tape is removable. Listen to music
>>you're very familiar with to see if it sounds "right." Once you figure
>>out where the tweeters sound the best, try to install them as close to
>>that position as you can.
>>
>
> I think this is very good advice. Matt also touched on some important
> psycho-acoustic principles that is certainly worth considering. But I
> wouldn't get too hung up on issues of path length, on/off-axis and so on.
> As Jamie suggested, the best approach is experimentation in your car and do
> what sounds best to you (I mean, YOU'RE the one who has to live with it, not
> us). Try a bunch of different tweeter locations with the double sticky tape
> with music you know REALLY well. Do what sounds best to you.

In the end, that's what it really comes down to... after all, none of us are
likely to spend a lot of time in your car, so what sounds good to us really
doesn't matter... it's what sounds good TO YOU.

All this information is really just to give you an understanding of what factors
will affect the sound, and hopefully give you some starting points (and perhaps,
if you find the sound not to your liking with a certain setup, some kind of idea
of WHY it doesn't seem right, so you know what to correct.)

[audioholik]

Matt Ion wrote:
> MOSFET wrote:
> >>1. Close to the Mid
> >>2. High on the dash.
> >>
> >>The benefits of number 1 are a better "integration" of the sound
> >>(meaning the sources of the sound are close together so it sounds like
> >>they're coming from the same place) and most times, an easier install.
> >>The drawbacks are that the tweeter can end up pretty close to your
> >>shoes, so you lose some high frequencies and if you have a passenger,
> >>you'll end up not hearing something because they have thighs. ;)
> >>
> >>The benefits of number 2 are a straighter shot to your ears (better
> >>highs) and more flexibility in positioning the driver. The drawbacks
> >>are a more difficult install and different path lengths from the
> >>tweeter to the midrange in each door.
> >>
> >>Here's my recommendation:
> >>
> >>Get some of that double sided foam tape and try a number of positions
> >>for the tweeters. Make sure the tape is removable. Listen to music
> >>you're very familiar with to see if it sounds "right." Once you figure
> >>out where the tweeters sound the best, try to install them as close to
> >>that position as you can.
> >>
> >
> > I think this is very good advice. Matt also touched on some important
> > psycho-acoustic principles that is certainly worth considering. But I
> > wouldn't get too hung up on issues of path length, on/off-axis and so on.
> > As Jamie suggested, the best approach is experimentation in your car and do
> > what sounds best to you (I mean, YOU'RE the one who has to live with it, not
> > us). Try a bunch of different tweeter locations with the double sticky tape
> > with music you know REALLY well. Do what sounds best to you.
>
> In the end, that's what it really comes down to... after all, none of us are
> likely to spend a lot of time in your car, so what sounds good to us really
> doesn't matter... it's what sounds good TO YOU.
>
> All this information is really just to give you an understanding of what factors
> will affect the sound, and hopefully give you some starting points (and perhaps,
> if you find the sound not to your liking with a certain setup, some kind of idea
> of WHY it doesn't seem right, so you know what to correct.)

If you're willing to put the time/money/research/effort into it, and
are truly into the sound quality aspect of this hobby, pillar tweeters
are the only way to go IMO.

[keith]

Hi Troy, all great advice you're getting here.

The most common school of thought is that by placing the tweeters close
to the mids, you "raise" the sound stage. In practice, there are
countless factors that will effect this, and that might not be what
sounds good to you anyway.

There's a pretty good installation at a shop in Concord NH, where they
placed tweets in the kicks, AND the pillars. they turned the cigarette
lighter into a switch that turns the pillar tweeters on and off based on
the type of material being played (DVD vs. music), and the volume it's
being played at.

Being that you're working with placement of 4 tweeters, this might be an
option.

But do try the double sided tape for a couple of weeks and experiment
with it. The specific internal acoustics of your vehicle will make a
difference, and it's a complicated process to determine best placement
with actually being in the vehicle.

Good luck,

KeithS




Jamie Pruden wrote:

> Hi Troy,
>
> There are two schools of thought that LOVE to argue with each other:
>
> 1. Close to the Mid
> 2. High on the dash.
>
> The benefits of number 1 are a better "integration" of the sound
> (meaning the sources of the sound are close together so it sounds like
> they're coming from the same place) and most times, an easier install.
> The drawbacks are that the tweeter can end up pretty close to your
> shoes, so you lose some high frequencies and if you have a passenger,
> you'll end up not hearing something because they have thighs. ;)
>
> The benefits of number 2 are a straighter shot to your ears (better
> highs) and more flexibility in positioning the driver. The drawbacks are
> a more difficult install and different path lengths from the tweeter to
> the midrange in each door.
>
> Here's my recommendation:
>
> Get some of that double sided foam tape and try a number of positions
> for the tweeters. Make sure the tape is removable. Listen to music
> you're very familiar with to see if it sounds "right." Once you figure
> out where the tweeters sound the best, try to install them as close to
> that position as you can.
>
> You can work out some of the difficulties listed above with time delay
> (to correct the path lengths) and equalization (to boost the highs,) but
> it's best to find the right place for the drivers in your car and then
> EQ lightly.
>
> YMMV.
>
> smiles,
> Jamie
>
> On 2006-09-10 22:18:30 -0700, "Troy T." > said:
>
>> Hello,
>> Soon I am going to be purchasing the Rockford Fosgate P162S component
>> speakers.Those perticular speakers come with 4 tweeters and you can
>> mount them all on the speakers all off the speaker or both. What would
>> the best way to do that be, and where is the best place to mount the
>> tweeers? I am going to be putting them into a 1999 Dodge Dakota sport.
>> There are alot of different place that i can put them. I want my
>> system to be loud with good SQ. I am open to any options. Iv thought
>> about making something out of fiberglass or plexy.
>> Thank you in advance for any help!
>>
>> TroyT.
>
>
>

[keith]

Hi Troy, all great advice you're getting here.

The most common school of thought is that by placing the tweeters close
to the mids, you "raise" the sound stage. In practice, there are
countless factors that will effect this, and that might not be what
sounds good to you anyway.

There's a pretty good installation at a shop in Concord NH, where they
placed tweets in the kicks, AND the pillars. they turned the cigarette
lighter into a switch that turns the pillar tweeters on and off based on
the type of material being played (DVD vs. music), and the volume it's
being played at.

Being that you're working with placement of 4 tweeters, this might be an
option.

But do try the double sided tape for a couple of weeks and experiment
with it. The specific internal acoustics of your vehicle will make a
difference, and it's a complicated process to determine best placement
without actually being in the vehicle.

Good luck,

KeithS




Jamie Pruden wrote:

> Hi Troy,
>
> There are two schools of thought that LOVE to argue with each other:
>
> 1. Close to the Mid
> 2. High on the dash.
>
> The benefits of number 1 are a better "integration" of the sound
> (meaning the sources of the sound are close together so it sounds like
> they're coming from the same place) and most times, an easier install.
> The drawbacks are that the tweeter can end up pretty close to your
> shoes, so you lose some high frequencies and if you have a passenger,
> you'll end up not hearing something because they have thighs. ;)
>
> The benefits of number 2 are a straighter shot to your ears (better
> highs) and more flexibility in positioning the driver. The drawbacks are
> a more difficult install and different path lengths from the tweeter to
> the midrange in each door.
>
> Here's my recommendation:
>
> Get some of that double sided foam tape and try a number of positions
> for the tweeters. Make sure the tape is removable. Listen to music
> you're very familiar with to see if it sounds "right." Once you figure
> out where the tweeters sound the best, try to install them as close to
> that position as you can.
>
> You can work out some of the difficulties listed above with time delay
> (to correct the path lengths) and equalization (to boost the highs,) but
> it's best to find the right place for the drivers in your car and then
> EQ lightly.
>
> YMMV.
>
> smiles,
> Jamie
>
> On 2006-09-10 22:18:30 -0700, "Troy T." > said:
>
>> Hello,
>> Soon I am going to be purchasing the Rockford Fosgate P162S component
>> speakers.Those perticular speakers come with 4 tweeters and you can
>> mount them all on the speakers all off the speaker or both. What would
>> the best way to do that be, and where is the best place to mount the
>> tweeers? I am going to be putting them into a 1999 Dodge Dakota sport.
>> There are alot of different place that i can put them. I want my
>> system to be loud with good SQ. I am open to any options. Iv thought
>> about making something out of fiberglass or plexy.
>> Thank you in advance for any help!
>>
>> TroyT.
>
>
>

[Tony F]

Jamie gave some great, very well written advice. I completely second it.

Tony


--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear
Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe
Alpine IVA-D310 DVD Head Unit, Alpine MRA-550 Digital 5.1 Amp, Boston
Acoustics Z-Series Speakers, Alpine SBS-05DC Center Channel Speaker,
Amplified MTX Thunderform Sub

[Troy T.]

Everyone,
Thank you so much for all the advice.I have learned alot from RAC. I am
going to go get some double sided tape ad just play with it for a
while.Anoter question, does it work better to have all 4 tweeres out or
should i leave 2 on the speakers.I liked the idea of putting 2 on a
switch but i want to do what will have the best SQ.
I was thinking and i have a single cab truck so the rear pillar is
right behnd me and i was wondering if it would work to put two in the
pillars? Or would that just deplete the sound stage havng highs come
from behind me.Thanks again for all the help

[Troy T.]

Everyone,
Thank you so much for all the advice.I have learned alot from RAC. I am
going to go get some double sided tape ad just play with it for a
while.Anoter question, does it work better to have all 4 tweeres out or
should i leave 2 on the speakers.I liked the idea of putting 2 on a
switch but i want to do what will have the best SQ.
I was thinking and i have a single cab truck so the rear pillar is
right behnd me and i was wondering if it would work to put two in the
pillars? Or would that just deplete the sound stage havng highs come
from behind me.Thanks again for all the help\

TroyT.

[DevilDriver]

Matt Ion Wrote:
>
> The downside to putting the tweeters up high is not just the path
> differences
> between them and the woofers in the doors, but the difference in path
> length
> between the two tweeters. Part of how the brain determines where a
> sound is
> coming from is the time difference between when it arrives at each ear.
> The
> higher the tweeters are, the sooner the sound arrives at your left ear
> (assuming a standard left-drive car, of course), and the further to the
> left the
> soundstage shifts. Even cranking the balance to the right will only
> partially
> offset this effect - sound will register STRONGER from the right, but
> still
> SOONER from the left, and the center of the sound image will still seem
> to be
> more from the left.

There is always too much talk of TA and PLD in car audio; for higher
frequency content, imaging cues are predominantly given by Frequency
Response and SPL. If you can get similar response curves with similar
SPL (ie. the passenger side tweeter may actually be receiving more
power, but is the same SPL as it is further away), then you are well on
your way to a quality sound stage. TA to combat PLD is not the be all
and end all that it is often believed to be and is actually very
unimportant for high frequency content that is typical of a tweeter.

Neil


--
DevilDriver

[keith]

Troy T. wrote:

Or would that just deplete the sound stage havng highs come
> from behind me.
>

Yep, most people would keep 'em in front.

[MOSFET]

> There is always too much talk of TA and PLD in car audio; > DevilDriver

Someone nitpicking Matt? Nitpick Matt at your own risk. ;)

MOSFET

[[email protected]]

Troy T. wrote:
> Hello,
> Soon I am going to be purchasing the Rockford Fosgate P162S component
> speakers.Those perticular speakers come with 4 tweeters and you can
> mount them all on the speakers all off the speaker or both. What would
> the best way to do that be, and where is the best place to mount the
> tweeers? I am going to be putting them into a 1999 Dodge Dakota sport.
> There are alot of different place that i can put them. I want my
> system to be loud with good SQ. I am open to any options. Iv thought
> about making something out of fiberglass or plexy.
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> TroyT.

Here's another idea I've seen done... go to the junkyard and swipe a
couple of motorized side mirrors. remove the mirror and mount your
speaker pod to the motor unit. then put a laser pointer in the pod. by
wiring up the motors to switches (even the factory switch from the same
car in the junkyard) you can move the pods around and aim the dots
right at your ears! Hey, you said you thought about plexi and
fiberglass, sounds like you want your truck to be a little unique and
flashy. I'm not saying this idea is the cat's ass in SQ, but it is
another idea to toss into your brainstorming at least.

[Troy T.]

Hey,
Thank you all for al the help, i am definitly going to try them.I just
hope i can afford to get the speakers soon. Thanks again for the help