The sound of excessive negative feedback

[Andre Jute]

What we want to know is, in Phil Toob's words
"what makes a Crown preamp bite your ears off, while testing at 0.0001%
THD"

We have already discovered in another pair of threads (1) that, while
it may once have been dynamic phase shift making well-measuring amps
sound like ****, components have moved on so much that today the
mechanism by which excessive negative feedback pours a pint of vinegar
into a Crown preamp must be different.

Even those of us not overimpressed with vanishing THD are interested in
why so many silicon amps,
and not a few hi-NFB (1) tube amps, sound like ****.

So where does the pint of vinegar flow?

Andre Jute
"Cat? What cat? That's not one of our cats in the pigeonloft." --
Cleopatra Midnight II, Study Cat to The Master

"Some other cat must have done it." -- Othercat Greycat, Under-Study
Cat to The Master

(1)
"Negative Feedback in Triodes: The Logical and
Experimental Proof" which starts here:

http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.audio.tubes/tree/browse_frm/thread/3a0c1bfbddedf1a8/43dff8d8ed263a35?rnum=1&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.audio.tubes%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fth read%2F3a0c1bfbddedf1a8%2F8bb2abfd88ae6fa9%3Fhl%3D en%26#doc_43dff8d8ed263a35

and "Dynamic phase shift" which starts here:

http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.audio.tubes/tree/browse_frm/thread/28693a73b0de672f/528334cd3113f1ab?rnum=1&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.audio.tubes%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fth read%2F28693a73b0de672f%2F8b591261057650e6%3Fhl%3D en%26#doc_528334cd3113f1ab

(2) Hi-NFB as opposed to Hi-Fidelity.

[Peter Wieck]

Andrew Jute McCoy blathered:

>Tripe...

What comes immediately to mind is whether it has ever actually heard a
Crown amp outside of sound-reinforcement applications that it should
opine on such a subject.

Yes, I have heard Crown amps, ancient and modern... All I have to write
on the subject is that they made a better tape recorder than an
Amplifier. And I have done minor repair on a couple... too much
use/abuse damaged their jacks. What they are, in my experience is
rugged, accepting of massive amounts of abuse, accepting of all sorts
of inputs and tolerant of all sorts of loads... all good things, but
somehow the good sound got left out. But perfectly acceptable for
producing loud noises at nose & ear-bleed levels.

Last I looked (and it has been a while), Crown did not pretend much to
other than large amounts of power and the ability to make large amounts
of noise. Which they did exceedingly well.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Phil]

Peter Wieck wrote:
> Andrew Jute McCoy blathered:
>
>
>>Tripe...
>
>
> What comes immediately to mind is whether it has ever actually heard a
> Crown amp outside of sound-reinforcement applications that it should
> opine on such a subject.
>
> Yes, I have heard Crown amps, ancient and modern... All I have to write
> on the subject is that they made a better tape recorder than an
> Amplifier. And I have done minor repair on a couple... too much
> use/abuse damaged their jacks. What they are, in my experience is
> rugged, accepting of massive amounts of abuse, accepting of all sorts
> of inputs and tolerant of all sorts of loads... all good things, but
> somehow the good sound got left out. But perfectly acceptable for
> producing loud noises at nose & ear-bleed levels.
>
> Last I looked (and it has been a while), Crown did not pretend much to
> other than large amounts of power and the ability to make large amounts
> of noise. Which they did exceedingly well.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Wyncote, PA
>
I was the one who heard a new Crown preamp, back when I was young (with
good ears, pre-.357 and .41 magnums, no ear protection), and everyone
ASSumed that 0.001% THD meant better than anything imaginable! It
sucked. Pretty much like taking a file to your eardrums.

Phil

[Andre Jute]

Phil wrote:
> I was the one who heard a new Crown preamp, back when I was young (with
> good ears, pre-.357 and .41 magnums, no ear protection), and everyone
> ASSumed that 0.001% THD meant better than anything imaginable! It
> sucked. Pretty much like taking a file to your eardrums.
>
> Phil

I just threw in the Crown as a distraction for the fartcatchers (1),
Phil. They will be kept busy defending their cheapskate lack of taste
while the rest of us get on with important business. I don't read them,
I just pull their chains and and do my Christian duty by helping them
embarrass themselves in public.

The important question is really

"the mechanism by which excessive negative feedback pours a pint of
vinegar into [name your least favourite ****poor amp]"

so that we can discuss

"why so many silicon amps, and not a few hi-NFB (2) tube amps, sound
like ****."

or more poetically,
"where does the pint of vinegar flow?"

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

(1) Fartcatchers are trailer park trash who try to inflate their own
self-esteem by following me around and commenting uselessly on
everything I say.

(2) Hi-NFB as opposed to Hi-Fidelity.

[Peter Wieck]

Andrew Jute McCoy gets caught in a lie:

And so waffles in its own inimitable manner.

Mr. McCoy, you really are no better than your sock-puppets. Sadly, your
favorite (conspicuous by *his* absence) is far more the expert, more
creative, and has actually done something.

The reality is that you really are just a bit of detritus floating
somewhere in Ireland... chosen because you could not tolerate the
realities of South African. Somehow you fooled some of the people some
of the time and created your own little tubious world. That it has
nothing to do with actual equipment and instruments that actually use
tubes (valves) becomes more and more obvoious.

Each little threadlet that you start is cribbed from real work done by
others. When you show your own work... it doesn't (can't) work.

Be well. Get a life.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA