kicker square sub

[[email protected]]

I currently drive approximately 200 miles a day for work. I am in my
car A LOT. As you can imagine, I am reaching the limits of my stock
stereo system. I am looking to upgrade. Unfortunately, my budget is
very slim, so I spend a lot of time on the 'net looking for the best
bang for my buck. I have found these speakers:

http://www.ubid.com/Kicker_S12L5_SoloBaric_1200w_12%22_Square_DVC_Subw oofer/a10772383.html

I am not overly concerned with the fact that they are "manufacturer
refurbished". The 'manufacturer' is who made 'em in the first
place! I am curious as to what can be refurbished on a speaker.

What is everyone's opinion of Kicker? Flame away if necessary. It
seems that these kicker subs seem to be on ubid.com quite often. Is
this a sign of cheapness?

Thanks in advance. I have only been lurking here for about a month, so
please excuse me if I have made any errors in my post.

bob z.
p.s. what does SPL stand for?

[Captain Howdy]

Just about everything can be refurbished on a speaker, cone, coils, surround,
magnets. look up speaker reconning. I for one never did like kicker, their
old Stillwater stuff was alright for its day. Their square speakers are
somewhat like reinventing the wheel, but a lot of people like them.

SPL

Sound Pressure Level

Self Powered Loudspeaker

Scottish Premier League

Sound Performance Lab

Surgical Planning Lab

Software Practices Lab

Structured Product Labeling

Scottish Poetry Library

Science Photo Library

Sandy Point Lodge

Shakespeare Programming Language

Superconducting Proton Linac

Surface Preparation Laboratory

Sound Physics Labs

Summer Pro League

Sears Phytochem Ltd

Short Portuguese Lessons

Hope this helps.



In article om>,
wrote:
>I currently drive approximately 200 miles a day for work. I am in my
>car A LOT. As you can imagine, I am reaching the limits of my stock
>stereo system. I am looking to upgrade. Unfortunately, my budget is
>very slim, so I spend a lot of time on the 'net looking for the best
>bang for my buck. I have found these speakers:
>
>http://www.ubid.com/Kicker_S12L5_SoloBaric_1200w_12%22_Square_DVC_Subw oofer/a10
>772383.html
>
>I am not overly concerned with the fact that they are "manufacturer
>refurbished". The 'manufacturer' is who made 'em in the first
>place! I am curious as to what can be refurbished on a speaker.
>
>What is everyone's opinion of Kicker? Flame away if necessary. It
>seems that these kicker subs seem to be on ubid.com quite often. Is
>this a sign of cheapness?
>
>Thanks in advance. I have only been lurking here for about a month, so
>please excuse me if I have made any errors in my post.
>
>bob z.
>p.s. what does SPL stand for?
>

[[email protected]]

> I am not overly concerned with the fact that they are "manufacturer
> refurbished". The 'manufacturer' is who made 'em in the first
> place! I am curious as to what can be refurbished on a speaker.


ok, i did a little more looking and i found within this newsgroup the
opinion that being square is mostly a marketing ploy.

what do you guys think of this being 'refurbished'?

bob z.

[[email protected]]

Captain Howdy wrote:

> SPL
>
> Sound Pressure Level
>
>
> Hope this helps.


It sure does help. Thanks!

I bet I chose correctly considering the newsgroup...
:~)>

bob z.

[MOSFET]

> >p.s. what does SPL stand for?
> >
Shakespeare Programming Language

10 Thou Must Clearest Thy Screen
20 TO B OR NOT TO B
30 NEXT B

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

> ok, i did a little more looking and i found within this newsgroup the
> opinion that being square is mostly a marketing ploy.
>
Yes, the subject of Kicker's Square woofers has come up from time to time
(along with Bazooka's triangle subs) and indeed, the consensus is that it
has more to do with marketing than anything else.

The ONLY exception to this being if you were going to design a solid wall of
woofers (like for an SPL vehicle). Obviously with a square woofer, you
would be able to squeeze them together more effectively (more total cone
area over a given area) than round woofers. But that's the ONLY benefit I
see.

That being said, I do think the Kicker L7's are damn good subwoofers, square
or not.

MOSFET

[Tony F]

"That being said, I do think the Kicker L7's are damn good subwoofers,
square or not."

I have also heard this about the L7s. I think I learned it in my Short
Portuguese Lessons! LOL

Bobzee, your link didn't work. Refurbed speakers are not something I would
personally buy, but you might have good luck with them. Is there a
warranty? How much are they? You might have better luck buying new or even
used on eBay. I see they have a ton of L5s for sale.

Tony


--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear
Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe
Alpine IVA-D310 DVD Head Unit, Alpine MRA-550 Digital 5.1 Amp, Boston
Acoustics Z-Series Speakers, Alpine SBS-05DC Center Channel Speaker,
Amplified MTX Thunderform Sub

[[email protected]]

Tony F wrote:

> Bobzee, your link didn't work. Refurbed speakers are not something I would
> personally buy, but you might have good luck with them. Is there a
> warranty? How much are they? You might have better luck buying new or even
> used on eBay. I see they have a ton of L5s for sale.
>
> Tony
>

there is a 90 day warranty.
this might be easier:
www.ubid.com
and click on car audio and then subwoofers

ubid seems to have fairly decent deals, but you gotta check that
shipping cost!
typical bid or buy it now. the 'buy it now' is $79 each

bob z.

[mfreak]

> (more total cone
> area over a given area) than round woofers.

That's the hype I always heard about em, a 12" round sub would have
pi*6² = 36pi = about 113 in² of area.. A 12" square sub would have
144 in², so it can push more air, thereby being that much more
effective.. Kicker is a great name, I'm still running 2 Kicker amps
from the 90's and they still work perfectly.

I woudln't be afraid of factory refurbished gear either, even without a
warranty, especially Kicker gear, which I would expect to last plenty
long anyway. One of my friends had a 10" L7 sub once, it was very
impressive for being a single 10 IMO. Can't say about the L5, but I'd
expect it to be pretty damn good,

[Captain Howdy]

What is the warranty on the same non refurbished speaker? If it's something
like a year then avoid the refurbished ones at all cost. high end woofers get
refurbished all the time, but Im not sure what kind of effort goes into
refurbishing car audio woofers that the factory sells to wholesalers for $20.


>>
>
>there is a 90 day warranty.
>this might be easier:
>www.ubid.com
>and click on car audio and then subwoofers
>
>ubid seems to have fairly decent deals, but you gotta check that
>shipping cost!
>typical bid or buy it now. the 'buy it now' is $79 each
>
>bob z.
>

[bob wald]

''its hip to be square''...lol

[MOSFET]

>> area over a given area) than round woofers.

>That's the hype I always heard about em,

Hype? What I said wasn't hype, it was common sense. I'll make this simple.
Ever make cookies in your life?

You roll out the dough so it's flat. Then you cut out your cookies with a
round cookie cutter. You WILL find that you have lots of dough left over.
This left over dough represents space on a large subwoofer baffle (like on
SPL vehicles) that COULD have been used for cone area. Now do the same thing
but cut the cookies square. You will have a lot less leftover dough.

MOSFET

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
>>>area over a given area) than round woofers.
>
>
>>That's the hype I always heard about em,
>
>
> Hype? What I said wasn't hype, it was common sense. I'll make this simple.
> Ever make cookies in your life?
>
> You roll out the dough so it's flat. Then you cut out your cookies with a
> round cookie cutter. You WILL find that you have lots of dough left over.
> This left over dough represents space on a large subwoofer baffle (like on
> SPL vehicles) that COULD have been used for cone area. Now do the same thing
> but cut the cookies square. You will have a lot less leftover dough.

Except cookies don't have to worry about distortion-free excursion. Yes, IN
THEORY a square sub is a more efficient design, but to be accurate, the whole
thing has to move in and out evenly, and that's a lot trickier with a square
design. Not saying it can't be done, just that it's not as easy as with a round
design (although the increased surface area does let you get away with less
excursion needed to move the same amount of air).

Basically it comes down to, if it really was that much better, everyone would be
doing it, and round subs would have vanished long ago.

[KU40]

your thinking is sound Matt. The square kicker subs have pretty good
SPL but have an equal lack in sound quality. It sounds like you would
want at least an equal amount of SQ from the way you talk, and if so
I'd stay away from kicker subs in general. They are designed and
marketed for the teenage basshead.

What exactly is your price range? ID (Image Dynamics) make some great
SQ-oriented woofers, and I think you can find them relatively cheap on
ebay or such.


--
KU40

[MOSFET]

> Except cookies don't have to worry about distortion-free excursion. Yes,
IN
> THEORY a square sub is a more efficient design, but to be accurate, the
whole
> thing has to move in and out evenly, and that's a lot trickier with a
square
> design. Not saying it can't be done, just that it's not as easy as with a
round
> design

Good point, Matt. I'm sure a cone shape that matches the shape of the
voice-coil/former (which is pretty much ALWAYS round) is the best design for
optimum linearity.

I was thinking strictly about cone area over a given large baffle space.

MOSFET

[bob wald]

a sq sub is nothing but a round sub with lil corners made to it...lol
can you understand the words coming outa my mouth?????? lol......

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:

> Good point, Matt. I'm sure a cone shape that matches the shape of the
> voice-coil/former (which is pretty much ALWAYS round) is the best design for
> optimum linearity.

Nothing to do with the voice coil shape - it's the surround where you run into
problems, specifically, in the corners. The further the sub moves, the more the
corner suspension/surround will have to stretch LINEARLY to accomodate.

[Matt Ion]

bob wald wrote:
> a sq sub is nothing but a round sub with lil corners made to it...lol
> can you understand the words coming outa my mouth?????? lol......

Nobody understands you, bob, since you continually talk out of your ass.

[bob wald]

what cant you understand about that post? are you mentally
challenged?????

[bob wald]

matt matt matt, so i think car audio should be fun..is that so bad????
i laugh so hard at you group of audio experts figuring out your complex
audio problems.lol
dont make it harder than it is.
its not rocket science.lol
only 2 rules to car audio..1. over power everything 20%. 2. slowly try
out your eqiupment. dont start out playing it above 90% of full
power...leave it around 84% of power mostly..never above 92% of total
power.....
end of my car audio class.. you are now ready for the world.lol
more equipment has been ruined playing too loud compared to wrong
install..4 to 1 i think...

[MOSFET]

> Nothing to do with the voice coil shape - it's the surround where you run
into
> problems, specifically, in the corners. The further the sub moves, the
more the
> corner suspension/surround will have to stretch LINEARLY to accomodate.

That's interesting, but I'm a bit unclear what you mean. Why would the
corner of a square sub have more difficulty stretching linearly than any
other part of the surround? I'm trying to imagine why this is the case, but
I'm not seeing it in my head. I guess part of the reason is that, of
course, I've seen the L7 and know that it has elbow like joints in the
surround corners that provide excellent extension.

Does the issue revolve around the cone twisting (a bit) due to the
flexibility of those corners (while a round cone would remain perfectly
linear)?

MOSFET

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
>>Nothing to do with the voice coil shape - it's the surround where you run
>
> into
>
>>problems, specifically, in the corners. The further the sub moves, the
>
> more the
>
>>corner suspension/surround will have to stretch LINEARLY to accomodate.
>
>
> That's interesting, but I'm a bit unclear what you mean. Why would the
> corner of a square sub have more difficulty stretching linearly than any
> other part of the surround? I'm trying to imagine why this is the case, but
> I'm not seeing it in my head. I guess part of the reason is that, of
> course, I've seen the L7 and know that it has elbow like joints in the
> surround corners that provide excellent extension.
>
> Does the issue revolve around the cone twisting (a bit) due to the
> flexibility of those corners (while a round cone would remain perfectly
> linear)?

Consider that the distance from the cone edge to the basket edge - the area
filled by the surround, which of course forms part of the suspension - remains
the same all the way around a round cone, as it does along the straight edges of
a square "cone" (a misnomer in itself, but that's not important right now). In
the same travel, the distance from the corner of a square cone to the corner of
the surround will increase by a larger amount - simple geometry.

Rounded corners would reduce the effect, but it's still there - as your put a
larger radius on the corners, you'd find the effect reducing until you ended up
with a round cone again.

I haven't seen the "elbow" corners on an L7, but again, they'd have to react
differently than the rest of the surround to accomodate the difference in
extension... and again, you get anomalies in the sound.

[MOSFET]

> I haven't seen the "elbow" corners on an L7, but again, they'd have to
react
> differently than the rest of the surround to accomodate the difference in
> extension... and again, you get anomalies in the sound.

Yes, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.
Nick

[KU40]

this is the reason there are the little support bars in the corners now.
The first generation L7's had a terrible time with the corners of the
surround ripping. it's just a poor design from a durability
standpoint, plain and simple.


--
KU40

[Tony F]

Sorry everyone, but I'm just not buying the whole "L7s aren't good SQ
woofers because they have square corners". There's tons of round woofers
out there that aren't good SQ woofers, and they don't have square corners.
I'm not saying one way or another that the square Kickers are more SPL
oriented vs. SQ oriented, I'm just not hearing a very convincing argument,
nor being provided with any sound data, that being square means not sounding
as good.

What I'd be interested in discussing and reading about, is what makes a
woofer an SQ woofer vs. an SPL one. I believe that the classification of a
square woofer as being one or the other lies in other manufacturing areas,
and not as much as its shape.

Just my .02.

Tony

[MOSFET]

Tony, the L7 IS an excellent subwoofer. And it kicks the butts of MANY
round woofers.

But I think the point Matt was making was that because of the geometry
involved, it is more difficult to keep a square cone linear due to the fact
that you have more cone (in a sense) towards the corners (greater distance
from the center of the cone to the corners) than the sides and therefore
more cone must be moved up and down at the corners than at the sides. With
a round sub, there is equal distance from the center of the cone to the
surround, so you don't have this anomaly. I think that is what Matt was
saying and that does make sense to me.

That DOES NOT mean a square cone can't sound good. It is simply more
difficult due to the geometry of it.

Nick

"Tony F" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry everyone, but I'm just not buying the whole "L7s aren't good SQ
> woofers because they have square corners". There's tons of round woofers
> out there that aren't good SQ woofers, and they don't have square corners.
> I'm not saying one way or another that the square Kickers are more SPL
> oriented vs. SQ oriented, I'm just not hearing a very convincing argument,
> nor being provided with any sound data, that being square means not
sounding
> as good.
>
> What I'd be interested in discussing and reading about, is what makes a
> woofer an SQ woofer vs. an SPL one. I believe that the classification of
a
> square woofer as being one or the other lies in other manufacturing areas,
> and not as much as its shape.
>
> Just my .02.
>
> Tony
>
>
>

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
> Tony, the L7 IS an excellent subwoofer. And it kicks the butts of MANY
> round woofers.
>
> But I think the point Matt was making was that because of the geometry
> involved, it is more difficult to keep a square cone linear due to the fact
> that you have more cone (in a sense) towards the corners (greater distance
> from the center of the cone to the corners) than the sides and therefore
> more cone must be moved up and down at the corners than at the sides. With
> a round sub, there is equal distance from the center of the cone to the
> surround, so you don't have this anomaly. I think that is what Matt was
> saying and that does make sense to me.
>
> That DOES NOT mean a square cone can't sound good. It is simply more
> difficult due to the geometry of it.

Exactly.

Like I said, if the concept was all that much better, don't you think everyone
would be making square speakers?

[DevilDriver]

Square drivers are just the opposite approach of high xmax in the linear
displacement equation. While a square driver may not be able to travel
as far while remaining linear as a circular speaker can, a square
driver also does not have to. As long as the suspension can handle the
travel appropriately, there is nothing about a square driver that will
prevent it from sounding good.

Neil


--
DevilDriver

[mfreak]

Captain Howdy wrote:
> What is the warranty on the same non refurbished speaker? If it's something
> like a year then avoid the refurbished ones at all cost. high end woofers get
> refurbished all the time, but Im not sure what kind of effort goes into
> refurbishing car audio woofers that the factory sells to wholesalers for $20.

I mentioned that I wouldn't care about the warranty, but I might be
jumping the gun a little.. Maybe.. I haven't ever blown a sub in 15
or so years, I think I've owned 5 boxes in that time: MTX, MTX, RF,
Kicker, and JL. The early stuff came from stores, the recent stuff is
all off ebay. No refurbished stuff. If refurbished subs have a
significantly higher fail rate than new ones, then maybe it'd be wise
to avoid em. Basically, the price difference has to be enough to cover
the difference in fail rate.

I HAVE blown some cheap crap amps, like pyramid/rockwood in my early
stupid days when I was dumb and didn't konw the difference.. But he's
talking about Kickers here, a company I have very high regards for..
I've transplanted the same 2 kicker amps from car to car for maybe 10
years and 4 cars.

It's like when I bought a $500 video camera at best buy, I declined the
optional 3 yr warranty for $100. If I bought 5 of them, I could save
the $500 and just buy a new one if one broke. If the camera's fail
rate is higher than 20% in 3 years, then you should get the warranty...
Otherwise it's a waste of $$.. I may be wrong, maybe lucky, but IME
warranties are almost always a waste of $$. Same thing applies for
buying cheap gear off ebay, or refurbished gear, etc.. vs new stuff
from a retail outlet.

[KU40]

refurbished subs should not have a higher fail rate. they are basically
a brand new sub, because during a refurbish the manuf. replaces all of
the soft parts (aka everything that moves), so pretty much everything
that could break is new. it's like rebuilding a car from the original
frame.


--
KU40