Please assist - I'm dropping ADAT for Pro Tools

[[email protected]]

Hi. I'm a somewhat well-established musician that is hitting a time in
life where live music performance, being in a band, etc, is starting to
give way to "solo projects" and an interest in production.

This is a long ass message, feel free to skim to the last half for the
questions. But first,

===SOME BACKGROUND===

Since 1997, I've had the ADAT XT/Mackie home set up, with some nicish
gear. For instance, Sennheiser 441 for vox, crown cm-700s for small
diaphragm condensor duties, Aphex 651 expressors (the solid state
version), RNC, Mackie monitors, etc. Not boutique, but very usable.
For the purposes of logging ideas and creating demos to send to REAL
producers (particularly for pre prod), this setup was adequate, dare I
say luxurious. Never had a complaint from them, and we worked with
some real names.

Point being, 2 months ago my old ADAT XT crapped out. Since i had the
infrastructure set up, and wanted to save money, I ordered a used XT
off ebay for $250. It arrives broken. Getting them fixed around here
(DC area) has a 4 month delay and costs more than a used one. Fine - I
get another one, an XT-20, for $220. holy crap, it sounds way better
than the 16 bit version. 20 hours later....it ****in breaks too. Now
I'm ****ed.

I'm officially giving up on mechanical recording apparatus. So I'm
going hard-disk based. I'll probably go Pro Tools, because while it
may (or may not) be overkill for my individual production needs, it
will give me experience I can use as I get more seriously into
producing others' work, and of course is compatible with area studios
in which I might eventually log production time. I've also logged
about a month of studio time with world class Pro Tools fellas, and I'd
like to leverage that knowledge in addition to other invaluable
production experience.

===QUESTIONS===

So, at long last, here is my question to your august council:

What is the best tube mic pre for under $200?

Seriously, I'm starting from scratch. I need to acquire a
computer-based recording setup. My philosophy for this is "simple,
high quality, versatile, expandable". The nucleus of my set up TO
START will be:

- computer
- one killer preamp channel
- at least one channel of A/D conversion, preferably 2
- software

Am I forgetting anything? I have a mixer, monitors, mics, compressors,
miles of cable, etc.

For the computer, I'm going with Apple. Do I need a big one with a ton
of inputs, or does all that stuff all go through a couple USB ports,
and therefore a laptop or Mini will suffice? Would a G4 suffice?

For the preamp, I'm thinking of a Hardy or Phoenix Audio or the like.
I want character...but not so much that it becomes a distraction. I'll
mostly be recording guitar (electric and acoustic) through this pre -
but I might need it for vocals as well on occasion. I have a Radial
JDI and Demeter tube bass preamp, so hopefully that will cover me on
bass.

Can I use my XT-20 for its converters? They aren't rotten. I think
the record heads are screwed, but that shouldn't stop me, right? That
said, I'd like at least 1 or 2 channels of nice >= 24 bit conversion.
Any ideas for $1000 or less?

I want to program my own beats. How do I get hold of cool drum
samples, and should I use pro tools as the sequencing software or is
there something else better suited to building drum tracks?

I'll be recording anything from rock to industrial hardcore (like
ministry) to singer/songwriter acoustic music to expansive soundtrack
compositions. Sky is the limit.

Apologies for the long email - but I know you guys are pros (i've
lurked for a long time) and I want to give you the full picture before
asking you to take your valuable time in a response.

Much appreciated,

Jason Browning

ps - feel free to check out some of my work at
myspace.com/jasonbrowningmusic

[Geoff]

wrote:

>
> What is the best tube mic pre for under $200?

There isn't one. Those that claim to be are really solid state mic preamps
with a tube stuck in as a non-linear effect device. Not connected as a real
tube amplification stage at all.


> Seriously, I'm starting from scratch.

Oh, you were joking ?

>
> I want to program my own beats. How do I get hold of cool drum
> samples, and should I use pro tools as the sequencing software or is
> there something else better suited to building drum tracks?

You are planning on buying into two manipulative and extortionate streams
here ( Apple and Digidesign).

Save your money, instead get a PC and Acid.

geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>
>Point being, 2 months ago my old ADAT XT crapped out. Since i had the
>infrastructure set up, and wanted to save money, I ordered a used XT
>off ebay for $250. It arrives broken. Getting them fixed around here
>(DC area) has a 4 month delay and costs more than a used one. Fine - I
>get another one, an XT-20, for $220. holy crap, it sounds way better
>than the 16 bit version. 20 hours later....it ****in breaks too. Now
>I'm ****ed.

These are mechanical devices. You need to get a PM on them once a year
or so. They need cleaning, lubrication, the rubber stuff checked and
often replaced, and the brakes checked.

If you get one and run it and run it with no regular maintenance it will
fail. If you buy one of unknown origin that has sat in someone's closet
for ages, it will fail.

If you want these machines to work, you MUST treat them properly and
get a regular PM on them. Now that you have several machines, you can
send one at a time to Tangible Technology. Yes, a PM will cost a few
hundred bucks, which is more than buying a junk machine on ebay. But
if you get a regular PM, you will have a reliable machine, which will not
be the case if you buy some junk on ebay.

>I'm officially giving up on mechanical recording apparatus. So I'm
>going hard-disk based. I'll probably go Pro Tools, because while it
>may (or may not) be overkill for my individual production needs, it
>will give me experience I can use as I get more seriously into
>producing others' work, and of course is compatible with area studios
>in which I might eventually log production time. I've also logged
>about a month of studio time with world class Pro Tools fellas, and I'd
>like to leverage that knowledge in addition to other invaluable
>production experience.

If you buy a Pro Tools system and you do not maintain it properly, it will
ALSO fail just like the Adat systems did. They also need regular maintenance
and I fear you'll find the maintenance cost on them (in terms of time if
not money) is no lower.

If you buy an interface with a lightpipe input, you can use the XT-20
converters. You'll find that modern converters like the RME are a hell
of a lot better sounding than the XT-20, though. But, you probably will
want something with a lightpipe input anyway so you can transfer old projects
from ADAT to the Pro Tools system.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 02:23:47 -0400, wrote
(in article om>):

> So, at long last, here is my question to your august council:
>
> What is the best tube mic pre for under $200?

At $200/channel, it doesn't really matter. Raise your sights and your wallet.
Don't be hung up on a tube pre. Good solid state is better than bad tube
circuitry.

> Seriously, I'm starting from scratch. I need to acquire a computer-based
> recording setup. My philosophy for this is "simple, high quality, versatile,

> expandable". The nucleus of my set up TO START will be:
>
> - computer
> - one killer preamp channel
> - at least one channel of A/D conversion, preferably 2
> - software
>
> Am I forgetting anything? I have a mixer, monitors, mics, compressors, miles

> of cable, etc.
>
> For the computer, I'm going with Apple. Do I need a big one with a ton of
> inputs, or does all that stuff all go through a couple USB ports, and
> therefore a laptop or Mini will suffice? Would a G4 suffice?

You don't want USB, it's too slow and the latency will **** you off. Stick
with firewire.

> For the preamp, I'm thinking of a Hardy or Phoenix Audio or the like. I want
> character...but not so much that it becomes a distraction. I'll mostly be
> recording guitar (electric and acoustic) through this pre - but I might need
> it for vocals as well on occasion. I have a Radial JDI and Demeter tube bass

> preamp, so hopefully that will cover me on bass.

John Hardy makes a fine preamp. I use mostly GML, but find the Millennia
Media STT-1's mic/line/instrument input switching lets me use mics and plug
in instruments directly. I use the STT-1 a lot for vocals.
Go to: http://home.comcast.net/%7Etyreeford/Library.html

I used the STT-1 direct for vocals on Existential Boogie, Cut from Cloth and
Dunno. I used the STT-1 as a direct for the bass on Existential Boogie.

I also like the Groove Tubes Brick as a tube pre for bass and electric
guitar.

> Can I use my XT-20 for its converters? They aren't rotten. I think the
> record heads are screwed, but that shouldn't stop me, right? That said, I'd
> like at least 1 or 2 channels of nice >= 24 bit conversion. Any ideas for
> $1000 or less?

Dunno on that one. There are many options. I've been using an RME ADI-8 DS
for a while and like it.

> I want to program my own beats. How do I get hold of cool drum samples, and
> should I use pro tools as the sequencing software or is there something else
> better suited to building drum tracks?

I use BFD for sequencing drum samples. Again, there are many options.

Regards,

Ty Ford





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 02:59:03 -0400, Geoff wrote
(in article >):

> wrote:
>
>>
>> What is the best tube mic pre for under $200?
>
> There isn't one. Those that claim to be are really solid state mic preamps
> with a tube stuck in as a non-linear effect device. Not connected as a real
> tube amplification stage at all.
>
>
>> Seriously, I'm starting from scratch.
>
> Oh, you were joking ?
>
>>
>> I want to program my own beats. How do I get hold of cool drum
>> samples, and should I use pro tools as the sequencing software or is
>> there something else better suited to building drum tracks?
>
> You are planning on buying into two manipulative and extortionate streams
> here ( Apple and Digidesign).
>
> Save your money, instead get a PC and Acid.
>
> geoff
>
>

and of course, using Macs and a Digi 002R, I would disagree.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[[email protected]]

Guys, I was kidding about the best tube pre under $200. I know it's
caca in that range. I should have added a :-)

So far thanks for all the excellent advice! Keep it coming!

Thanks again,

J


Ty Ford wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 02:59:03 -0400, Geoff wrote
> (in article >):
>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> What is the best tube mic pre for under $200?
> >
> > There isn't one. Those that claim to be are really solid state mic preamps
> > with a tube stuck in as a non-linear effect device. Not connected as a real
> > tube amplification stage at all.
> >
> >
> >> Seriously, I'm starting from scratch.
> >
> > Oh, you were joking ?
> >
> >>
> >> I want to program my own beats. How do I get hold of cool drum
> >> samples, and should I use pro tools as the sequencing software or is
> >> there something else better suited to building drum tracks?
> >
> > You are planning on buying into two manipulative and extortionate streams
> > here ( Apple and Digidesign).
> >
> > Save your money, instead get a PC and Acid.
> >
> > geoff
> >
> >
>
> and of course, using Macs and a Digi 002R, I would disagree.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford
>
>
> -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
> stuff are at www.tyford.com

[[email protected]]

Good point about the maintenance, though i'd have to imagine by sheer
virtue of less moving parts, the Pro Tools system would be more
reliable. Add the functional superiority of pro tools over adat and
that is enough to incent me to make the format switch. Additionally, I
have general computer expertise which would, I imagine, enable me to
self-maintain a pro tools set up more successfully than an ADAT set up.

I think the plan regarding the ADAT is to have it fixed, tranfer my old
projects to a few external hard drives, then wrap it up and stow it
away for a rainy day.


Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > wrote:
> >
> >Point being, 2 months ago my old ADAT XT crapped out. Since i had the
> >infrastructure set up, and wanted to save money, I ordered a used XT
> >off ebay for $250. It arrives broken. Getting them fixed around here
> >(DC area) has a 4 month delay and costs more than a used one. Fine - I
> >get another one, an XT-20, for $220. holy crap, it sounds way better
> >than the 16 bit version. 20 hours later....it ****in breaks too. Now
> >I'm ****ed.
>
> These are mechanical devices. You need to get a PM on them once a year
> or so. They need cleaning, lubrication, the rubber stuff checked and
> often replaced, and the brakes checked.
>
> If you get one and run it and run it with no regular maintenance it will
> fail. If you buy one of unknown origin that has sat in someone's closet
> for ages, it will fail.
>
> If you want these machines to work, you MUST treat them properly and
> get a regular PM on them. Now that you have several machines, you can
> send one at a time to Tangible Technology. Yes, a PM will cost a few
> hundred bucks, which is more than buying a junk machine on ebay. But
> if you get a regular PM, you will have a reliable machine, which will not
> be the case if you buy some junk on ebay.
>
> >I'm officially giving up on mechanical recording apparatus. So I'm
> >going hard-disk based. I'll probably go Pro Tools, because while it
> >may (or may not) be overkill for my individual production needs, it
> >will give me experience I can use as I get more seriously into
> >producing others' work, and of course is compatible with area studios
> >in which I might eventually log production time. I've also logged
> >about a month of studio time with world class Pro Tools fellas, and I'd
> >like to leverage that knowledge in addition to other invaluable
> >production experience.
>
> If you buy a Pro Tools system and you do not maintain it properly, it will
> ALSO fail just like the Adat systems did. They also need regular maintenance
> and I fear you'll find the maintenance cost on them (in terms of time if
> not money) is no lower.
>
> If you buy an interface with a lightpipe input, you can use the XT-20
> converters. You'll find that modern converters like the RME are a hell
> of a lot better sounding than the XT-20, though. But, you probably will
> want something with a lightpipe input anyway so you can transfer old projects
> from ADAT to the Pro Tools system.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Geoff]

Ty Ford wrote:
>
> and of course, using Macs and a Digi 002R, I would disagree.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford


You find a Mac and Protools better value for money, and a superior looping
type application than the one that if not actually invented it, brought it
to the masses ?

geoff

[[email protected]]

Ok,

Thanks for the input. In synopsis, my 3 main variables will be:

1. mic pre(s)
2. converters
3. computer

The mic pre will be anything from a hardy to a millennia td-1

For converters I'm looking at the RME

Which begs the question - to run all this stuff I need a computer, and
it will be an apple. what do you think is the minimum configuration
for reasonably reliable and quick operation and adequate I/O? Also,
portability is a bonus. Would a single processor G4 cut it or do I
need to dig deeper? How much memory would I need? if the apple is
equipped with firewire and USB, how do I interface with a converter
like the RME that doesn't seem to have the same type of interface?

Thanks again,

J







wrote:
> Hi. I'm a somewhat well-established musician that is hitting a time in
> life where live music performance, being in a band, etc, is starting to
> give way to "solo projects" and an interest in production.
>
> This is a long ass message, feel free to skim to the last half for the
> questions. But first,
>
> ===SOME BACKGROUND===
>
> Since 1997, I've had the ADAT XT/Mackie home set up, with some nicish
> gear. For instance, Sennheiser 441 for vox, crown cm-700s for small
> diaphragm condensor duties, Aphex 651 expressors (the solid state
> version), RNC, Mackie monitors, etc. Not boutique, but very usable.
> For the purposes of logging ideas and creating demos to send to REAL
> producers (particularly for pre prod), this setup was adequate, dare I
> say luxurious. Never had a complaint from them, and we worked with
> some real names.
>
> Point being, 2 months ago my old ADAT XT crapped out. Since i had the
> infrastructure set up, and wanted to save money, I ordered a used XT
> off ebay for $250. It arrives broken. Getting them fixed around here
> (DC area) has a 4 month delay and costs more than a used one. Fine - I
> get another one, an XT-20, for $220. holy crap, it sounds way better
> than the 16 bit version. 20 hours later....it ****in breaks too. Now
> I'm ****ed.
>
> I'm officially giving up on mechanical recording apparatus. So I'm
> going hard-disk based. I'll probably go Pro Tools, because while it
> may (or may not) be overkill for my individual production needs, it
> will give me experience I can use as I get more seriously into
> producing others' work, and of course is compatible with area studios
> in which I might eventually log production time. I've also logged
> about a month of studio time with world class Pro Tools fellas, and I'd
> like to leverage that knowledge in addition to other invaluable
> production experience.
>
> ===QUESTIONS===
>
> So, at long last, here is my question to your august council:
>
> What is the best tube mic pre for under $200?
>
> Seriously, I'm starting from scratch. I need to acquire a
> computer-based recording setup. My philosophy for this is "simple,
> high quality, versatile, expandable". The nucleus of my set up TO
> START will be:
>
> - computer
> - one killer preamp channel
> - at least one channel of A/D conversion, preferably 2
> - software
>
> Am I forgetting anything? I have a mixer, monitors, mics, compressors,
> miles of cable, etc.
>
> For the computer, I'm going with Apple. Do I need a big one with a ton
> of inputs, or does all that stuff all go through a couple USB ports,
> and therefore a laptop or Mini will suffice? Would a G4 suffice?
>
> For the preamp, I'm thinking of a Hardy or Phoenix Audio or the like.
> I want character...but not so much that it becomes a distraction. I'll
> mostly be recording guitar (electric and acoustic) through this pre -
> but I might need it for vocals as well on occasion. I have a Radial
> JDI and Demeter tube bass preamp, so hopefully that will cover me on
> bass.
>
> Can I use my XT-20 for its converters? They aren't rotten. I think
> the record heads are screwed, but that shouldn't stop me, right? That
> said, I'd like at least 1 or 2 channels of nice >= 24 bit conversion.
> Any ideas for $1000 or less?
>
> I want to program my own beats. How do I get hold of cool drum
> samples, and should I use pro tools as the sequencing software or is
> there something else better suited to building drum tracks?
>
> I'll be recording anything from rock to industrial hardcore (like
> ministry) to singer/songwriter acoustic music to expansive soundtrack
> compositions. Sky is the limit.
>
> Apologies for the long email - but I know you guys are pros (i've
> lurked for a long time) and I want to give you the full picture before
> asking you to take your valuable time in a response.
>
> Much appreciated,
>
> Jason Browning
>
> ps - feel free to check out some of my work at
> myspace.com/jasonbrowningmusic

[RD Jones]

wrote:

> 1. mic pre(s)

Avalon 737sm, for tube/character. Sounds good with direct
instruments ie bass.

> 2. converters

Frontier Tango24 lightpipe, RME (several types)

> 3. computer

Go for the best you can afford, of all the equipment you buy
it will likely be the first to be replaced down the line.

> For converters I'm looking at the RME
>
> Which begs the question - to run all this stuff I need a computer, and
> it will be an apple. what do you think is the minimum configuration
> for reasonably reliable and quick operation and adequate I/O? Also,
> portability is a bonus. Would a single processor G4 cut it or do I
> need to dig deeper? How much memory would I need? if the apple is
> equipped with firewire and USB, how do I interface with a converter
> like the RME that doesn't seem to have the same type of interface?

The RME stuff comes in several various interface types.
Lightpipe, the firewire and their own proprietary PCI card
that uses a firewire style connector and cable. There's also
the MADI system. Several other brands have their own
design for interface (MOTU). Get the one that makes the
most sense for the way you plan on working and will allow
for an upgrade path.

Previously having used an ADAT system, I now use the
RME lightpipe PCI card.

Have you considered going with the HD24 to replace the
tape based ADATs ?

rd

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 16:49:32 -0400, Geoff wrote
(in article >):

> Ty Ford wrote:
>>
>> and of course, using Macs and a Digi 002R, I would disagree.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ty Ford
>
>
> You find a Mac and Protools better value for money, and a superior looping
> type application than the one that if not actually invented it, brought it
> to the masses ?
>
> geoff
>
>

I don't think looping was the issue. For that I'd use Soundtrack or Garage
Band. It's been a while, but I think garage band comes free with Macs.

Regards,

Ty

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 00:16:38 -0400, wrote
(in article m>):

> Ok,
>
> Thanks for the input. In synopsis, my 3 main variables will be:
>
> 1. mic pre(s)
> 2. converters
> 3. computer
>
> The mic pre will be anything from a hardy to a millennia td-1
>
> For converters I'm looking at the RME
>
> Which begs the question - to run all this stuff I need a computer, and
> it will be an apple. what do you think is the minimum configuration
> for reasonably reliable and quick operation and adequate I/O? Also,
> portability is a bonus. Would a single processor G4 cut it or do I
> need to dig deeper? How much memory would I need? if the apple is
> equipped with firewire and USB, how do I interface with a converter
> like the RME that doesn't seem to have the same type of interface?


Get the biggest, fastest Mac you can afford with as much as RAM as you can.
Go to a G5.

The Digi 002 uses firewire. All macs have several firewire ports. The outputs
of my preamps go to the RME AD converter. The RME converter has a lightpipe
out which goes to the Digi 002 lightpipe in.

Regards,

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com