~$300 Mic's for Classical Guitar

[[email protected]]

Hi people,

I was hoping to get a few quick opinions on what mic's to get for a
beginner setup. Heres some info about my home studio setup.

1) Room is roughly 5m (length) x 5m (width) x ~2.4m (height) :: Fully
tiled floor, 1 large 4m long thick sliding glass door, 1 small 1.6m
sliding glass door, and a window. (in effect, pretty average location
for recording im guessing)

2) Esteve 6PS Classical Guitar ~$1,000 (Aus)

3) PreSonus Inspire 1394 Preamp/mixer with 48v phantom power ~$400
(Aus)

4) Fast computer with average sound card (Forgot what...)

NOTE:: My budget is ~$300 for a pair of mic's (total).

Previously ive been recording with a Sony DV camera (Lol) so
practically any mic is an upgrade but i'd still like to find a good
value product for what i can spend. I have been looking at mic's like
AT3035 & Rode NT1A, though i have to ebay them to fit my budget. Any
help would be very appreciated.

Cheers,

LP

[Don Pearce]

On 1 Sep 2006 00:43:41 -0700, wrote:

>Hi people,
>
>I was hoping to get a few quick opinions on what mic's to get for a
>beginner setup. Heres some info about my home studio setup.
>
>1) Room is roughly 5m (length) x 5m (width) x ~2.4m (height) :: Fully
>tiled floor, 1 large 4m long thick sliding glass door, 1 small 1.6m
>sliding glass door, and a window. (in effect, pretty average location
>for recording im guessing)
>
>2) Esteve 6PS Classical Guitar ~$1,000 (Aus)
>
>3) PreSonus Inspire 1394 Preamp/mixer with 48v phantom power ~$400
>(Aus)
>
>4) Fast computer with average sound card (Forgot what...)
>
>NOTE:: My budget is ~$300 for a pair of mic's (total).
>
>Previously ive been recording with a Sony DV camera (Lol) so
>practically any mic is an upgrade but i'd still like to find a good
>value product for what i can spend. I have been looking at mic's like
>AT3035 & Rode NT1A, though i have to ebay them to fit my budget. Any
>help would be very appreciated.
>
>Cheers,
>
>LP

Before you start thinking about microphones you need to find yourself
another room. This one sounds about as disastrous a recording space as
it would be possible to find. The only thing that could make it worse
would be for the height to be 2.5 metres instead of 2.4. The two 5
metre dimensions turn this space into standing wave hell, and you may
not be able to tame it successfully. Do you have any other rooms in
the house that aren't quite so square? Even just a little bit?

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[[email protected]]

> Before you start thinking about microphones you need to find yourself
> another room. This one sounds about as disastrous a recording space as
> it would be possible to find. The only thing that could make it worse
> would be for the height to be 2.5 metres instead of 2.4. The two 5
> metre dimensions turn this space into standing wave hell, and you may
> not be able to tame it successfully. Do you have any other rooms in
> the house that aren't quite so square? Even just a little bit?
>
Hahahah, ok ok no problem yes i have other rooms.
1) Corridor 6or7m long x 2.5m wide x 2.6m height - jarrah wood floor.
2) Living room - 5m length x 7m width x 3m height - jarrah wood floor
also.

Thanks for letting me know how bad the first room is. As you can see i
hadnt really considered the room dimensions much and definitely need to
refresh my physics from years back in school. Does either of the above
sound remotely useable ?

[Don Pearce]

On 1 Sep 2006 01:40:28 -0700, wrote:

>
>> Before you start thinking about microphones you need to find yourself
>> another room. This one sounds about as disastrous a recording space as
>> it would be possible to find. The only thing that could make it worse
>> would be for the height to be 2.5 metres instead of 2.4. The two 5
>> metre dimensions turn this space into standing wave hell, and you may
>> not be able to tame it successfully. Do you have any other rooms in
>> the house that aren't quite so square? Even just a little bit?
>>
>Hahahah, ok ok no problem yes i have other rooms.
>1) Corridor 6or7m long x 2.5m wide x 2.6m height - jarrah wood floor.
>2) Living room - 5m length x 7m width x 3m height - jarrah wood floor
>also.
>
>Thanks for letting me know how bad the first room is. As you can see i
>hadnt really considered the room dimensions much and definitely need to
>refresh my physics from years back in school. Does either of the above
>sound remotely useable ?

Both sound useable, perhaps for different purposes. I'd go for the
living room from the practicality point of view. But do listen to it.
Get a friend to play the guitar there, and walk around the room with a
finger in one ear (dead serious, this is the only way to turn off your
brain's compensation and really hear the room). Listen for emphasized
notes, ringing and honking sounds accompanying some notes. To cure
this you may need to move around (or move in) some soft furnishings.
Once you have a room that sounds good you have a fighting chance of
making a good recording. At that point you can start auditioning
microphones.

As it is a classical guitar recording you will be positioning the mic
rather further from the guitar than you would for folk or rock. This
makes the room quality doubly important.

d
--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[[email protected]]

Actually come to think of it ive used my DV cam around the house and
the best results have come from the living room. Ill definitely try
what you suggested but... i still have no mic's unless you count the
camera, so i cant really tell how it will sound. thanks for the good
info though.

LP

[Ray Thomas]

Since you're going to be doing the 'one ear auditioning'.....a tried and
true method with much to recommend it.... could you at least borrow or hire
one good mic (preferably of the types and models you mention) and do some
test recordings with that one mic, to substitute for your acute ear ? It'll
be mono of course, but will tell you a lot about your guitar's interaction
with the room. Once you have found the mic you like.... buy it, blow that
$300 budget on one mic alone, and experiment for a few weeks or months while
you undergo starvation to save up for the second. You need to suffer for
your music, and short term malnutrition is a small price to pay for setting
yourself up with the right gear. If you 'cheap yourself out' on the mics
you'll regret it at great length in the future. If you live anywhere near a
good music dealer in Melbourne or Sydney (or anywhere in Aust) see if you
can loan a few representative mics over a weekend or two..most dealers who
will see you as bona fide would see a potential sale and hop into such an
arrangement.
Ray

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Actually come to think of it ive used my DV cam around the house and
> the best results have come from the living room. Ill definitely try
> what you suggested but... i still have no mic's unless you count the
> camera, so i cant really tell how it will sound. thanks for the good
> info though.
>
> LP
>

[[email protected]]

Ray Thomas wrote:
> Since you're going to be doing the 'one ear auditioning'.....a tried and
> true method with much to recommend it.... could you at least borrow or hire
> one good mic (preferably of the types and models you mention) and do some
> test recordings with that one mic, to substitute for your acute ear ? It'll
> be mono of course, but will tell you a lot about your guitar's interaction
> with the room. Once you have found the mic you like.... buy it, blow that
> $300 budget on one mic alone, and experiment for a few weeks or months while
> you undergo starvation to save up for the second. You need to suffer for
> your music, and short term malnutrition is a small price to pay for setting
> yourself up with the right gear. If you 'cheap yourself out' on the mics
> you'll regret it at great length in the future. If you live anywhere near a
> good music dealer in Melbourne or Sydney (or anywhere in Aust) see if you
> can loan a few representative mics over a weekend or two..most dealers who
> will see you as bona fide would see a potential sale and hop into such an
> arrangement.
> Ray

Ok that sounds like a good idea. I live in Perth, fairly close to the
city so shouldnt be a problem to find somewhere to hire from (i hope).
If im going $300 for one mic what are my best alternatives?

[Ray Thomas]

well.....the mic that sounds best in combination with your preamp, perhaps
first and foremost, because different mics like to see different impedance
loads and capacitances, and there is no 'table of compatibility' for this,
you'll need to trial and error it. As well as the large diaphragm/ small
diaphragm choice, the polar pattern (ie is it wide cardioid/sub-omni, hyper
cardioid, omni pickup pattern) will have a large bearing on how much of the
room is 'heard' by it, and how those off-axis "room bounce" sounds are
translated to the sound file. The noise floor or self noise of the
mic/preamp combo mightbecome a factor too with distant miking, but I doubt
it with modern designs. I don't have a wide range of mics to recommend, but
I have Rode NT-2 and NT-5 pairs and they could be a good starting point,
throw in an A-T or ADK (German) or Studio Projects, even a Behringer B-5 to
the audition mix. Rode NT-1A or 2A would well be worth a look too.....and
don't forget eBay and the Trading Post newspaper too ! Ring up a few local
studios to see what they use, as well as ABC Classic FM in Perth....might as
well tap into all points of the spectrum for advice and guidance !
Ray
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Ray Thomas wrote:
>> Since you're going to be doing the 'one ear auditioning'.....a tried and
>> true method with much to recommend it.... could you at least borrow or
>> hire
>> one good mic (preferably of the types and models you mention) and do some
>> test recordings with that one mic, to substitute for your acute ear ?
>> It'll
>> be mono of course, but will tell you a lot about your guitar's
>> interaction
>> with the room. Once you have found the mic you like.... buy it, blow that
>> $300 budget on one mic alone, and experiment for a few weeks or months
>> while
>> you undergo starvation to save up for the second. You need to suffer for
>> your music, and short term malnutrition is a small price to pay for
>> setting
>> yourself up with the right gear. If you 'cheap yourself out' on the mics
>> you'll regret it at great length in the future. If you live anywhere near
>> a
>> good music dealer in Melbourne or Sydney (or anywhere in Aust) see if you
>> can loan a few representative mics over a weekend or two..most dealers
>> who
>> will see you as bona fide would see a potential sale and hop into such an
>> arrangement.
>> Ray
>
> Ok that sounds like a good idea. I live in Perth, fairly close to the
> city so shouldnt be a problem to find somewhere to hire from (i hope).
> If im going $300 for one mic what are my best alternatives?
>

[Mike Rivers]

wrote:

> I live in Perth, fairly close to the
> city so shouldnt be a problem to find somewhere to hire from (i hope).
> If im going $300 for one mic what are my best alternatives?

At least you're in the same country where Rode mics are made. Buy
whatever they make that costs around $300. There are far too many
variables for someone to recommend any single mic to you, and if you
have 20 different suggestions you'll never get anywhere.

The good news is that it's hard to go very far wrong and if you were to
try 20 mics, you'd find that differences are small enough so that you
could live with any of them. It's more important to get to work than to
get the best when you're on a small budget.

[Arny Krueger]

> wrote in message
ups.com
> Hi people,
>
> I was hoping to get a few quick opinions on what mic's to
> get for a beginner setup. Heres some info about my home
> studio setup.
>
> 1) Room is roughly 5m (length) x 5m (width) x ~2.4m
> (height) :: Fully tiled floor, 1 large 4m long thick
> sliding glass door, 1 small 1.6m sliding glass door, and
> a window. (in effect, pretty average location for
> recording im guessing)

Uggh, what a mess, and the rest of your available spaces seem no better.

Get a good $100 mic, and spend $200 trying to soften up the room.

[[email protected]]

Thanks all for the comments.
(Ray) I was pretty much looking at those mic's you mentioned especially
the Rode or AT ones and im looking on eBay for some good deals. Im
actually right now looking at a "Used" AT3035 currently at $131 Aus
with 1.5hrs to go though im not sure if used mic's are a good way to
go... (Mike) Your right,.. ive already been overloaded with mic options
which, to me would all be an amazing improvement over my current
equipment so practically whatever i purchase will put a smile on my
dial. I will look into the Rode equipment and talk to a few good music
shops/studios before i invest.

Side note: Used or new ? eBay is tempting me with cheaper used mic's as
mentioned above, but im not so sure about them... i guess as a beginner
setup it would be ok, but what do you guys think?

Oh and Mike: "It's more important to get to work than to
get the best when you're on a small budget." - Excellent point.

Cheers guys,

LP

[Ray Thomas]

Yes, I think Mike has summarized it very well.....and placement and angling
of the mic pair (with respect to the other mic, with respect to distance and
height from the guitar, with respect to location of the mic pair in the
room) will provide more variation at your fingertips than you'll find
between most of the named mic contenders. By the way, I think we all assume
it's a classical guitar, played in that style at a respectful
distance....and not a close miked 'folk guitar' used an accessory to a
multitracked vocal, for example ?
Ray

Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wrote:
>
>> I live in Perth, fairly close to the
>> city so shouldnt be a problem to find somewhere to hire from (i hope).
>> If im going $300 for one mic what are my best alternatives?
>
> At least you're in the same country where Rode mics are made. Buy
> whatever they make that costs around $300. There are far too many
> variables for someone to recommend any single mic to you, and if you
> have 20 different suggestions you'll never get anywhere.
>
> The good news is that it's hard to go very far wrong and if you were to
> try 20 mics, you'd find that differences are small enough so that you
> could live with any of them. It's more important to get to work than to
> get the best when you're on a small budget.
>

[Paul Stamler]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Side note: Used or new ? eBay is tempting me with cheaper used mic's as
> mentioned above, but im not so sure about them... i guess as a beginner
> setup it would be ok, but what do you guys think?

Microphones don't usually wear out, with some exceptions. They break when
abused, but they don't wear out. Switches occasionally get wonky, but can
usually be fixed.

(Exceptions? Some dynamic mics have the sound change after a couple of
decades as the suspension stiffens up. And Neumann U47s change radically
with age as the diaphragm material gets brittle. But you're not looking at a
U47 for Au$300, or if you are then I want to know where.)

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> > wrote in message
> ups.com
> > Hi people,
> >
> > I was hoping to get a few quick opinions on what mic's to
> > get for a beginner setup. Heres some info about my home
> > studio setup.
> >
> > 1) Room is roughly 5m (length) x 5m (width) x ~2.4m
> > (height) :: Fully tiled floor, 1 large 4m long thick
> > sliding glass door, 1 small 1.6m sliding glass door, and
> > a window. (in effect, pretty average location for
> > recording im guessing)
>
> Uggh, what a mess, and the rest of your available spaces seem no better.

The living room should be okay, maybe even good.

Peace,
Paul

[[email protected]]

I play classical with a touch of flamenco occasionally. Arte/Savarez
nylon strings.

(Paul) Ill keep what you said in mind and not be too critical on the
used side. Incidentally my internet ISP went down last night so i
missed the end of that ebay auction i was talking about, and it ended
on $102.52 US for the AT3035. Oh well...

LP