Ribbon Mics LIVE?

[Michael Vecchio]

Hi everyone,

I'm doing an unconventional live show with electronic drums, synth bass,
acoustic guitar and voice. I'm putting everything through the computer to
be mixed and then out to the board. I figure that the low stage volume (as
a result of having no live drums and no amps) would afford me the
opportunity to use a better vocal mic setup than usual (which has up to now
been an Sm58 straight into the front-of-house). People have said that a
condenser would actually pick up sound further away from the mic than a
standard dynamic mic and therefore increase the chance of feedback. It was
then recommended that I try a ribbon mic because of its lesser pickup
distance, and that its unique response might suit my softer baritone voice.
I've been looking at the AEA R92 (www.wesdooley.com) and the preamp that
they make specifically for ribbon mics. Any feedback on them?

So what do you make of all this? Are ribbons good for live applications?
...for baritone voices? ...for ****ty NYC clubs that have mediocre sound
systems anyway? Also, I'm planning on using some vocal effects - a little
stereo slapback delay, some chorusing, etc. So given my situation, is it
worth going the ribbon mic route or should I just save the money and go
cheap?

AND THEN, what about preamp and compressor? Is that more important than the
mic itself? Can I get away with using software compression, or maybe a
software tube amp emulator? Any software alternatives that you can
recommend?

Any feedback is very helpful. THANKS, ALL!!!

[Geoff]

Michael Vecchio wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm doing an unconventional live show with electronic drums, synth
> bass, acoustic guitar and voice. I'm putting everything through the
> computer to be mixed and then out to the board. I figure that the
> low stage volume (as a result of having no live drums and no amps)
> would afford me the opportunity to use a better vocal mic setup than
> usual (which has up to now been an Sm58 straight into the
> front-of-house). People have said that a condenser would actually
> pick up sound further away from the mic than a standard dynamic mic
> and therefore increase the chance of feedback. It was then
> recommended that I try a ribbon mic because of its lesser pickup
> distance, and that its unique response might suit my softer baritone
> voice. I've been looking at the AEA R92 (www.wesdooley.com) and the
> preamp that they make specifically for ribbon mics. Any feedback on
> them?

Not the best turn of phrase !

> So what do you make of all this?

Very silly idea. Ribbons very susceptable to popping, and usually fragile
wrt handling. If you want a step up from SM58 (D880, E845, etc) try a
Neumann KSM105 , RODE S1, AKG C900 or C5900, or similar.

geoff

PS If you are 'mixing' in a computer, why is it going out to a 'board' ?

[Michael Vecchio]

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for your advice. I meant that I would go out to the PA, but until I
have a live sound person out front to adjust the EQ on the master output of
the computer (using Ableton Live) I will just send a stereo signal to the
board so the house sound engineer can adjust the EQ accordingly.

In the final analysis do you think that for these shows with these type of
sound systems it's worth even going for something better than an Sm58?
....and/or getting a good preamp/compressor?

Mike



"Geoff" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Vecchio wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I'm doing an unconventional live show with electronic drums, synth
>> bass, acoustic guitar and voice. I'm putting everything through the
>> computer to be mixed and then out to the board. I figure that the
>> low stage volume (as a result of having no live drums and no amps)
>> would afford me the opportunity to use a better vocal mic setup than
>> usual (which has up to now been an Sm58 straight into the
>> front-of-house). People have said that a condenser would actually
>> pick up sound further away from the mic than a standard dynamic mic
>> and therefore increase the chance of feedback. It was then
>> recommended that I try a ribbon mic because of its lesser pickup
>> distance, and that its unique response might suit my softer baritone
>> voice. I've been looking at the AEA R92 (www.wesdooley.com) and the
>> preamp that they make specifically for ribbon mics. Any feedback on
>> them?
>
> Not the best turn of phrase !
>
>> So what do you make of all this?
>
> Very silly idea. Ribbons very susceptable to popping, and usually fragile
> wrt handling. If you want a step up from SM58 (D880, E845, etc) try a
> Neumann KSM105 , RODE S1, AKG C900 or C5900, or similar.
>
> geoff
>
> PS If you are 'mixing' in a computer, why is it going out to a 'board' ?
>

[Scott Dorsey]

Michael Vecchio > wrote:
>
>I'm doing an unconventional live show with electronic drums, synth bass,
>acoustic guitar and voice. I'm putting everything through the computer to
>be mixed and then out to the board. I figure that the low stage volume (as
>a result of having no live drums and no amps) would afford me the
>opportunity to use a better vocal mic setup than usual (which has up to now
>been an Sm58 straight into the front-of-house). People have said that a
>condenser would actually pick up sound further away from the mic than a
>standard dynamic mic and therefore increase the chance of feedback. It was
>then recommended that I try a ribbon mic because of its lesser pickup
>distance, and that its unique response might suit my softer baritone voice.
>I've been looking at the AEA R92 (www.wesdooley.com) and the preamp that
>they make specifically for ribbon mics. Any feedback on them?

Call Wes. I think you'll find the gain before feedback on the R92 is
not wonderful, in part because the pickup is asymmetric. I think if you
really want to use a ribbon you'd be better off with a Beyer M160.

But, the people who told you that you would have more feedback with a
condenser mike are full of crap. There are condensers out there that
are designed with extremely tight patterns and excellent gain before
feedback. Try the Neumann KMS105, for instance... it is just phenomenally
harder to make it feed back than an SM58. On the other hand, you can't eat it.

>So what do you make of all this? Are ribbons good for live applications?
>..for baritone voices? ...for ****ty NYC clubs that have mediocre sound
>systems anyway? Also, I'm planning on using some vocal effects - a little
>stereo slapback delay, some chorusing, etc. So given my situation, is it
>worth going the ribbon mic route or should I just save the money and go
>cheap?

No, you should buy the mike that sounds best on your voice. And look for
mikes with excellent pattern control. But for $50 you should be able to find
a used AKG D880 with a lot more top end than an SM58 and much better off-axis
rejection. For $200 you should be able to find a used Sennheiser e855 with
still better rejection. For $400 you should be able to find a used KMS105
with better rejection than that.

>AND THEN, what about preamp and compressor? Is that more important than the
>mic itself? Can I get away with using software compression, or maybe a
>software tube amp emulator? Any software alternatives that you can
>recommend?

Don't compress if you can help it. Compression is going to eat away at
the minimal headroom that you have. Avoid putting any unnecessary crap
in the signal path. Spend all your money on better mikes and better speakers.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[geezer]

It's always orth going for something better than an SM58.

Besides the mics that Scott mentioned, try the AKG c535, the Shure
sm87, Audix Om5 or 6, or the venerable re16 from EV.

There's a lot of decent vocal mics out there, and none of them are the
SM58.

And always, always spend your $$ on better transducers, like Dorsey
said.

-glenn



Michael Vecchio wrote:

> In the final analysis do you think that for these shows with these type of
> sound systems it's worth even going for something better than an Sm58?
> ...and/or getting a good preamp/compressor?
>
> Mike
>
>
>

> >

[Geoff]

Michael Vecchio wrote:
> Hi Geoff,
>
> Thanks for your advice. I meant that I would go out to the PA, but
> until I have a live sound person out front to adjust the EQ on the
> master output of the computer (using Ableton Live) I will just send a
> stereo signal to the board so the house sound engineer can adjust the
> EQ accordingly.
> In the final analysis do you think that for these shows with these
> type of sound systems it's worth even going for something better than
> an Sm58? ...and/or getting a good preamp/compressor?

If you feel you need compression why not in Ableton (assuming it can do it).

Ifthe music is 'full on', then don't know if any huge improvement with
sexier mics. Presumably the voice is the only thing that NEEDS a mic ?

And it's all being filtered thru a PA - is the qulaity of that going to be a
limiting factor ?

geoff

[Paul Stamler]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Vecchio > wrote:

> Call Wes. I think you'll find the gain before feedback on the R92 is
> not wonderful, in part because the pickup is asymmetric. I think if you
> really want to use a ribbon you'd be better off with a Beyer M160.

Or an M260. But both are hypercardioids and generate more proximity effect
than cardioids, which isn't usually good for people with deeper voices. The
suggestion of an E-V RE16 is one I would second.

> But, the people who told you that you would have more feedback with a
> condenser mike are full of crap. There are condensers out there that
> are designed with extremely tight patterns and excellent gain before
> feedback. Try the Neumann KMS105, for instance... it is just phenomenally
> harder to make it feed back than an SM58. On the other hand, you can't
eat it.

Jokes aside, some vocalists can. I saw the lead vocalist in Phonix (female)
working a KMS105 close enough that if she'd been wearing lipstick it would
have smeared. Sounded fine.

> >So what do you make of all this? Are ribbons good for live applications?
> >..for baritone voices? ...for ****ty NYC clubs that have mediocre sound
> >systems anyway? Also, I'm planning on using some vocal effects - a
little
> >stereo slapback delay, some chorusing, etc. So given my situation, is it
> >worth going the ribbon mic route or should I just save the money and go
> >cheap?
>
> No, you should buy the mike that sounds best on your voice. And look for
> mikes with excellent pattern control. But for $50 you should be able to
find
> a used AKG D880 with a lot more top end than an SM58 and much better
off-axis
> rejection. For $200 you should be able to find a used Sennheiser e855
with
> still better rejection. For $400 you should be able to find a used KMS105
> with better rejection than that.

Yep.

> >AND THEN, what about preamp and compressor? Is that more important than
the
> >mic itself? Can I get away with using software compression, or maybe a
> >software tube amp emulator? Any software alternatives that you can
> >recommend?
>
> Don't compress if you can help it. Compression is going to eat away at
> the minimal headroom that you have. Avoid putting any unnecessary crap
> in the signal path. Spend all your money on better mikes and better
speakers.

And do try to avoid putting your vocal through the computer. That ol' devil
latency could jump up and bite you.

Peace,
Paul

[Laurence Payne]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:52:32 GMT, "Michael Vecchio"
> wrote:

>So what do you make of all this? Are ribbons good for live applications?
>..for baritone voices? ...for ****ty NYC clubs that have mediocre sound
>systems anyway?

You've pinned it there. It's ultimately going out through a ****ty
PA. Don't fuss. Your SM58 is fine. Concentrate on the performance.

[Michael Vecchio]

Ableton has a decent compressor that I would be happy to make use of,
although I wasn't sure if hardware was considered to be superior. The PA's
at the venues around town vary from being okay to totally aweful, so it most
likely will be a limiting factor. The music is best described as
elctro-garage-pop a la Broadcast, Magnetic Fields, etc., so the vocals are
pretty mellow.

Thanks to everyone for all of your comments and ideas - I really appreciate
it!

Mike




"Geoff" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Vecchio wrote:
>> Hi Geoff,
>>
>> Thanks for your advice. I meant that I would go out to the PA, but
>> until I have a live sound person out front to adjust the EQ on the
>> master output of the computer (using Ableton Live) I will just send a
>> stereo signal to the board so the house sound engineer can adjust the
>> EQ accordingly.
>> In the final analysis do you think that for these shows with these
>> type of sound systems it's worth even going for something better than
>> an Sm58? ...and/or getting a good preamp/compressor?
>
> If you feel you need compression why not in Ableton (assuming it can do
> it).
>
> Ifthe music is 'full on', then don't know if any huge improvement with
> sexier mics. Presumably the voice is the only thing that NEEDS a mic ?
>
> And it's all being filtered thru a PA - is the qulaity of that going to be
> a limiting factor ?
>
> geoff
>