Where does a sonic maximizer go for live use?

[[email protected]]

I've never used one of these before. Assuming that I decide to use
it... Where, literally, is it usually placed on the board? Main inserts
to affect the whole mix?

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>I've never used one of these before. Assuming that I decide to use
>it... Where, literally, is it usually placed on the board? Main inserts
>to affect the whole mix?

As far away as possible. Maybe in another state, if you can.

I could see using it on a single feed on an insert to deal with something
that's badly muffled, but it would be absolutely excruciating on the mains.
It's certainly a poor substitute for proper miking in the first place.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

wrote:
> I've never used one of these before. Assuming that I decide to use
> it... Where, literally, is it usually placed on the board? Main inserts
> to affect the whole mix?

Leave it home until you spend some time listening to it and deciding
that you really want to use it for something. You might find that it
helps a particular instrument, but it almost always makes a whole mix
sound worse.

[Scott Fraser]

<<I've never used one of these before. Assuming that I decide to use
it... Where, literally, is it usually placed on the board? Main inserts

to affect the whole mix? >>

As Scott & Mike said. There's really nothing this box does that can't
be done a lot better with good mics & mic pres.

Scott Fraser

[Laurence Payne]

On 28 Aug 2006 11:54:45 -0700, wrote:

>I've never used one of these before. Assuming that I decide to use
>it... Where, literally, is it usually placed on the board? Main inserts
>to affect the whole mix?

Maybe as a band-aid for one particular instrument that has a problem.
Generally, leave it at home. (But don't use it there either:-)

[[email protected]]

Well, the thing is that the church that is hiring me says they have
one.. and want to use it. I've never used one before. At the very least
I could plug it in and turn it down to zero or bypass or something. But
due to their request, it has to "look" like I'm using it even though it
doesn't make any sense. Should I just put it in a insert on one of the
instruments?

[Michael Putrino]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Well, the thing is that the church that is hiring me says they have
> one.. and want to use it. I've never used one before. At the very least
> I could plug it in and turn it down to zero or bypass or something. But
> due to their request, it has to "look" like I'm using it even though it
> doesn't make any sense. Should I just put it in a insert on one of the
> instruments?
>

How about send the mains to it, but not returning it to anything :-)
That way, the light will light up, but to no effect...

[Brian Running]

> Well, the thing is that the church that is hiring me says they have
> one.. and want to use it. I've never used one before. At the very least
> I could plug it in and turn it down to zero or bypass or something. But
> due to their request, it has to "look" like I'm using it even though it
> doesn't make any sense. Should I just put it in a insert on one of the
> instruments?

Insert it on the entire mix. They generally have a bypass switch, so
try it in and out of the circuit, and see if you like it or not. Don't
simply dismiss them because others tell you they don't like them. Make
up your own mind.

[Laurence Payne]

On 28 Aug 2006 14:10:17 -0700, wrote:

>Well, the thing is that the church that is hiring me says they have
>one.. and want to use it. I've never used one before. At the very least
>I could plug it in and turn it down to zero or bypass or something. But
>due to their request, it has to "look" like I'm using it even though it
>doesn't make any sense. Should I just put it in a insert on one of the
>instruments?

What do you want - permission to experiment? :-) Try. And try it
across the main mix. Perhaps their speakers are so clapped-out that it
will actually be an improvement. Let us know?

[[email protected]]

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On 28 Aug 2006 14:10:17 -0700, wrote:
>
> >Well, the thing is that the church that is hiring me says they have
> >one.. and want to use it. I've never used one before. At the very least
> >I could plug it in and turn it down to zero or bypass or something. But
> >due to their request, it has to "look" like I'm using it even though it
> >doesn't make any sense. Should I just put it in a insert on one of the
> >instruments?
>
> What do you want - permission to experiment? :-) Try. And try it
> across the main mix. Perhaps their speakers are so clapped-out that it
> will actually be an improvement. Let us know?

It's just that I have no experience with one of these and need a
starting point. I'm not even sure what they do except "make stuff sound
better". It's in a gymnasium, and is bound to sound like hell anyway.

[Mike Rivers]

wrote:
> Well, the thing is that the church that is hiring me says they have
> one.. and want to use it. I've never used one before.

Well, then put it between the main mix and the recorder. Use it. If
that's what they like, let 'em have it. The customer is always right,
even when he's wrong.

> Should I just put it in a insert on one of the instruments?

Put it on the pastor's voice during the sermon. Maybe he'll think it
makes him sound like god.

[TimPerry]

wrote:
> Laurence Payne wrote:
>> On 28 Aug 2006 14:10:17 -0700, wrote:
>>
>>> Well, the thing is that the church that is hiring me says they have
>>> one.. and want to use it. I've never used one before. At the very
>>> least I could plug it in and turn it down to zero or bypass or
>>> something. But due to their request, it has to "look" like I'm
>>> using it even though it doesn't make any sense. Should I just put
>>> it in a insert on one of the instruments?
>>
>
> It's just that I have no experience with one of these and need a
> starting point. I'm not even sure what they do except "make stuff
> sound better".

perhaps you could explain to the 'powers that be' that as it is a tool that
you are unfamiliar with that keeping the signal chain simple will yield the
best results.

It's in a gymnasium, and is bound to sound like hell
> anyway.

gyms are not noted for their expellant acoustics.

i have used the BBE extensivily in the past partly because i worked at a
place that sold them and partly because i perceived a benefit in sound at
the time. as time passed and my equipment inproved i began to feel the
minuses outweighed the plusses and removed the unit from active duty.

for your situation i would consider using it on prerecorded material like
tape or CD. the unit i used never seemed to help much on voice, in fact i
believe it enhanced feedback problems.

if you absolutely must use it in line use the littlest possible effect. low
contour just a bit past straight up and definition just a few clicks above
min.

[GregS]

In article >, "Michael Putrino" > wrote:
>
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Well, the thing is that the church that is hiring me says they have
>> one.. and want to use it. I've never used one before. At the very least
>> I could plug it in and turn it down to zero or bypass or something. But
>> due to their request, it has to "look" like I'm using it even though it
>> doesn't make any sense. Should I just put it in a insert on one of the
>> instruments?
>>
>
>How about send the mains to it, but not returning it to anything :-)
>That way, the light will light up, but to no effect...

Just keep the power on, because an unpowered unit can pull down a signal.


greg

[Mike Rivers]

TimPerry wrote:

> perhaps you could explain to the 'powers that be' that as it is a tool that
> you are unfamiliar with that keeping the signal chain simple will yield the
> best results.

Better would be to explain that when recording, you won't be able put
your full attention to hearing what it's doing, and it's not (even
though they seem to think so) a set-and-forget device. Offer to make a
recording without the Maximizer and then process it through the
Maximizer so they can compare before-and-after. Be sure to make the
processed version sound worse to you. If they like it better, then just
hook it up, set it, and forget it. And quit worrying. You won't lose
your job.

The Sonic Maximizer isn't necessarily an evil device, but like any
other signal processor, you need to be aware (with your ears) of what
it's doing and know when you're making things sound worse or better. I
did a recording gig with a fairly well respected engineer who always
ran a BBE maximizer between the console output and the recorder. I
thought it sounded weird, adding a "phasey" sound to the room ambience,
and adding nothing pleasant to the sound of the band. This was a
"newgrass" band, by the way.

[Fletch]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> TimPerry wrote:
>
> > perhaps you could explain to the 'powers that be' that as it is a tool that
> > you are unfamiliar with that keeping the signal chain simple will yield the
> > best results.
>
> Better would be to explain that when recording, you won't be able put
> your full attention to hearing what it's doing, and it's not (even
> though they seem to think so) a set-and-forget device. Offer to make a
> recording without the Maximizer and then process it through the
> Maximizer so they can compare before-and-after. Be sure to make the
> processed version sound worse to you.

This is intellectually dishonest, to purposely make a mix with the
maximizer sound worse just to get out of using the device.

Better to follow the advice of others to employ the unit and decide for
yourself if it helps or hinders, striving to make as good as you can.
If it really doesn't help anything, then speak with whoever is in
charge and explain what it is doing to the sound that is bad.

Depending upon how many people are in attendance, more being better for
the sound, you may be surprised to find the unit helps. You won't know
until you try.

--Fletch

[Michael Putrino]

"Michael Putrino" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Well, the thing is that the church that is hiring me says they have
>> one.. and want to use it. I've never used one before. At the very least
>> I could plug it in and turn it down to zero or bypass or something. But
>> due to their request, it has to "look" like I'm using it even though it
>> doesn't make any sense. Should I just put it in a insert on one of the
>> instruments?
>>
>
> How about send the mains to it, but not returning it to anything :-)
> That way, the light will light up, but to no effect...
>

Obviously others have better advice than I gave above. Just try it inserted
on the mains and slowly increase the effect until you are either happy with
it or not. Use your own ears to guide you.

Mike

[Scott Dorsey]

> wrote:
>
>It's just that I have no experience with one of these and need a
>starting point. I'm not even sure what they do except "make stuff sound
>better". It's in a gymnasium, and is bound to sound like hell anyway.


They add high-order even harmonics that make things sound brighter. If
it sounds 'better' with the bbe box in the loop, it's a sign that you have
a high end problem somewhere else in the signal path. Which is a good thing
to know.

If the room is a gym, the odds are the top end is phenomenally bright and
most of your time is going to be spent trying to tame the top. Anything
you can do to improve high-frequency directivity of the speaker system will
be a big win. You want as much sound as possible getting to the listeners'
ears and as little as possible hitting the walls and ceiling.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Mike Rivers > wrote:
>
>Put it on the pastor's voice during the sermon. Maybe he'll think it
>makes him sound like god.

No, for tha you need the EMT plate.
--scott

THIS..... THIS... IS GOD.... IS GOD..... When I'm in Atlanta, which is
always, because I'm omnipresent.... I listen to all the radio stations
at the same time.... because I'm omnipotent... but especially... WREK-FM...
-- Celebrity ID from God (drenched in EMT plate)
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Michael Wozniak]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote:
>>
>>It's just that I have no experience with one of these and need a
>>starting point. I'm not even sure what they do except "make stuff sound
>>better". It's in a gymnasium, and is bound to sound like hell anyway.
>
>
> They add high-order even harmonics that make things sound brighter. If
> it sounds 'better' with the bbe box in the loop, it's a sign that you have
> a high end problem somewhere else in the signal path. Which is a good
> thing
> to know.
>
> If the room is a gym, the odds are the top end is phenomenally bright and
> most of your time is going to be spent trying to tame the top. Anything
> you can do to improve high-frequency directivity of the speaker system
> will
> be a big win. You want as much sound as possible getting to the
> listeners'
> ears and as little as possible hitting the walls and ceiling.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

My understanding of BBE's (as opposed to Aphex) is that they also delay
lows/mids relative to the highs, which aids intelligibility in many
situations. In a boomy gym, they could help a lot if used conservatively.

Mikey
Nova Music Productions

[Scott Dorsey]

Michael Wozniak > wrote:
>
>My understanding of BBE's (as opposed to Aphex) is that they also delay
>lows/mids relative to the highs, which aids intelligibility in many
>situations. In a boomy gym, they could help a lot if used conservatively.

They do this, and the marketing material touts it, but in fact the group
delay doesn't really make much of an audible difference. The harmonic
generation makes much more of a contribution to the actual effect.

The particular harmonics generated by the BBE and the Aphex are different,
too, so they have somewhat different variations on the same sort of sound.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."