Question for Lionel

[Robert Morein]

Lionel,
A friend of mine tells me that rec.audio.opinion is more bitterly
argumentative than the most hot-blooded religious and political usenet
sites.

So the question arises -- perhaps rec.audio.opinion does not typify the
American persona. But then, what does it typify?

Are those of us who participate in this group more "latin" ?

The stereotype of the "latin" personality is easily offended and is very
vocal in giving insults. For example, if you recall "Monty Python and the
Search for the Holy Grail", where they come upon the French castle, the
soldiers in the castle hurle garbage over the battlements.

Should rec.audio.opinion should be renamed rec.audio.opinion.fr, with
the required language changed to French or Italian?

[Robert Morein]

"Lionel" > wrote in message
...
> Robert Morein - > - lundi 3 Mai 2004
> 23:08 wrote:
>
> > Lionel,
> > A friend of mine tells me that rec.audio.opinion is more bitterly
> > argumentative than the most hot-blooded religious and political usenet
> > sites.
> >
> > So the question arises -- perhaps rec.audio.opinion does not typify
> > the
> > American persona. But then, what does it typify?
> >
> > Are those of us who participate in this group more "latin" ?
> >
> > The stereotype of the "latin" personality is easily offended and is
> > very
> > vocal in giving insults. For example, if you recall "Monty Python and
the
> > Search for the Holy Grail", where they come upon the French castle, the
> > soldiers in the castle hurle garbage over the battlements.
> > Should rec.audio.opinion should be renamed rec.audio.opinion.fr,
with
> > the required language changed to French or Italian?
>
> I don't think that it's a question of national or ethnic mentality.
> Put yourself the questions :
> What is my thrill when I post on RAO ?
>
> RAO is a kind of "bistrot". You come here after your working day to
discuss,
> to insult, to rage... without any possible limitations.
> Most of us come to break the dishes against the wall, to get things out of
> their system... But most of us will never admit this.
> Note the few succes of moderated NG like RAHE...
>
> These behaviours haven't no frontier and not belong to a specific a
country
> or ethnic group.
> For example if you judge Middius on his messages' content you will ask him
> to joint me in the "French Castle" but no doubt that he is a *real*
> American. ;-)
> The insults, garbage... are part of this international game, a game
without
> frontier. :o)
> As everywhere in the world the problem come from the cheaters, the
> hypocrites who want the thrill but don't accept the rules...

Bravo!!! (for keeping the game going, no insult intended to Middius)

[Bruce J. Richman]

Lionel wrote:


>Robert Morein - > - lundi 3 Mai 2004
>23:08 wrote:
>
>> Lionel,
>> A friend of mine tells me that rec.audio.opinion is more bitterly
>> argumentative than the most hot-blooded religious and political usenet
>> sites.
>>
>> So the question arises -- perhaps rec.audio.opinion does not typify
>> the
>> American persona. But then, what does it typify?
>>
>> Are those of us who participate in this group more "latin" ?
>>
>> The stereotype of the "latin" personality is easily offended and is
>> very
>> vocal in giving insults. For example, if you recall "Monty Python and the
>> Search for the Holy Grail", where they come upon the French castle, the
>> soldiers in the castle hurle garbage over the battlements.
>> Should rec.audio.opinion should be renamed rec.audio.opinion.fr, with
>> the required language changed to French or Italian?
>
>I don't think that it's a question of national or ethnic mentality.
>Put yourself the questions :
>What is my thrill when I post on RAO ?
>
>RAO is a kind of "bistrot". You come here after your working day to discuss,
>to insult, to rage... without any possible limitations.
>Most of us come to break the dishes against the wall, to get things out of
>their system... But most of us will never admit this.

There is, no doubt, for many participants, a certain "cathartic" effect in
being able to ventilate about certain pet gripes, whether it is audio-related
or not. (Although I wish people would take their political arguments to NGs
set up for that purpose).




>Note the few succes of moderated NG like RAHE...
>

I disagree. While far too much time is pent on RAHE rehashing the same old,
same old objectivist-vs.-subjectivist arguments about the "sound" of cables or
amplifiers (and really, everybody's heard these arguments for years with very
few known to have changed their views), at least the NG is not dominated by
discussions of politics or other irrelevant subjects. And it *is* a place
where people can express their opinions about varioous types of music, audio
gear, or simply as a question requesting certain types of information without
being swamped with personal insults. Also while not technically NGs, there are
numerous other MODERATED audio discussion forums which are very successful.
The first that comes to mind is Audio Asylum, complete with all its
subdivisions (e.g. planars, vinyl, high-resolution, amplifiers, etc.) and a
large number of participants from all over the world. Also worth mentioning
for vinyl enthusiasts is thr Phonogram mailing list, also moderated, which is a
wealth of information about various recordings and audiio gear.

All of these MODERATED groups also have, what for me is another advantage, the
participation of various manufacturers, audiophile store owners, and other
folks who are directly involved in the audio industry. I find it interesting,
at times, to get opinions from people actually "in the trenches" of this hobby,
even though they admittedly have certain biases (just like the rest of us).
With the exception of Glenn Zelniker and John Atkinson, I can';t think of
anybody even remotely connected to the audio industry (i.e. manufacturers,
writers, store owners) that participates here. And the lack of moderation,
which, of course, encourages personal insults and lack of cvilized debate,
IMHO, has a lot to do with their absence. That's unfortunate.

As an aside, for those interested in Martin Logan speakers, there is also an
excellent moderated website:

www.martinloganowners.com

This website contains lots of discussions about this particular brand of
speakers, audio systems, music, etc.






>These behaviours haven't no frontier and not belong to a specific a country
>or ethnic group.
>For example if you judge Middius on his messages' content you will ask him
>to joint me in the "French Castle" but no doubt that he is a *real*
>American. ;-)
>The insults, garbage... are part of this international game, a game without
>frontier. :o)
>As everywhere in the world the problem come from the cheaters, the
>hypocrites who want the thrill but don't accept the rules...
>
>
>
>
>
>


Bruce J. Richman

[Bruce J. Richman]

Lionel wrote:


>Bruce J. Richman - > - mardi 4
>Mai 2004 01:46 wrote:
>
>> Lionel wrote:
>>>Note the few succes of moderated NG like RAHE...
>>>
>
>> I disagree.
>
>Not really I'm sure but let me explain.
>
>> While far too much time is pent on RAHE rehashing the same
>> old, same old objectivist-vs.-subjectivist arguments about the "sound" of
>> cables or amplifiers (and really, everybody's heard these arguments for
>> years with very few known to have changed their views),
>
>Why do you think that these subjects are the prefered ones on RAHE ?

At the present time, there seems to be a relatively small core of zealots that
apparently think thair *mission* in audio NGs is to discourage and/or eliminate
the expression of subjective opinions and personal preferences. It's also a
fact of life that discussion of certain topics such as double blind testing is
not allowed in some other audio opinion forums by the moderators. While the
amount of verbiage put forth by these zealots is considerable, there also
appear to be a significant number of other individuals who post there that
*are* interested in discussing individual preferences and subjective opinions
of audiio equipment, music, etc.

>Are they so important for music lovers ?
>People like these topics just because they are endless polemist debates in
>which people can show argumentation skill. In the end their only goal is to
>dominate -provisionally but as long as possible- the subject and by the way
>to dominate the adversary... Exactly in the same way that on RAO people
>endlessly discuss about politic or more scabrous subjects. ;-)
>

Unfortunately, the lack of moderation on RAO allows the unlimited discussion of
totally off-topic subjects like politics. Until fairly recently, politics was
not discussed hardly at all on RAO. And even at the present time, there appear
to be only a few rather rabid hatemongers interested in bashing the opposing
political party. I find it less then coincidental that the same few people
that engage in hatemongering in other areas also want to practice their "trade"
when it comes to politics.



>I guess that like most of us you have had your first music experiences on
>"poor" quality audio devices (mono electrophone and/or tapes) and that this
>poor quality didn't bungle too much *the* thrill.

Actually, my first musical experiences were with live classical music concerts,
since my mother worked for the Boston Symphony when I was very young. I was
lucky enough to get the opportunity to go to a lot of "childrens' concerts"
performed by Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops, as well as Boston Symphony
concerts. I also began clarinet and tenor saxophone lessons at a fiarly young
age. My first audio system came a little later. And it was fairly primitive.



Dave told me once a
>"boom-boom box" is ok for a picnic and he was right the most important is
>the *thrill* i.e : sun, a bottle of wine, a sweet blanket, a cool girl...
>and music.
>When you have invest some money in an audio system which fits your needs and
>your budget you should forget the audio and concentrate on the music,
>right ?
>All sane *music-lovers* should do that, if you keep informed once per decade
>you shouldn't miss too much.
>

Musical tastes are extremely variable, of course. And for better or worse,
while music is (and should be) primary for most of us, I think that a lot of
folks would like to have an audio system that sounds a little better than what
they currently have.
Therefore, it is part of the hobby to occasionally consider changing or
upgrading one piece of equipment or another. Fortunately, I don't suffer much
from this affliction. I tend to keep the same equipment for long periods of
time with no serious desire to change it.



>According to RAO, 98% of RAHE's content isn't informative but polemist.
>

Who, on RAO, claims that? I haven't seen any statistical anlysis of RAHE
presented either here or there.


>> at least the NG is
>> not dominated by
>> discussions of politics or other irrelevant subjects. And it *is* a place
>> where people can express their opinions about varioous types of music,
>> audio gear, or simply as a question requesting certain types of
>> information without
>> being swamped with personal insults. Also while not technically NGs,
>> there are numerous other MODERATED audio discussion forums which are very
>> successful. The first that comes to mind is Audio Asylum, complete with
>> all its subdivisions (e.g. planars, vinyl, high-resolution, amplifiers,
>> etc.) and a
>> large number of participants from all over the world. Also worth
>> mentioning for vinyl enthusiasts is thr Phonogram mailing list, also
>> moderated, which is a wealth of information about various recordings and
>> audiio gear.
>
>This NG are *informative* ones.
>I use to participate to such informative NG for jazz, music, speakers DIY...
>And I hope that the other RAO contributors do the same.
>

There is no reason why that can not also be done here, if people are willing to
forget their petty hatreds and grudges. You're a fairly recent poster here,
but those of us who have been around for a while know that there has also been,
from time to time, a significant interest in making RAO a moderated NGs. Only
a few posters, ones known almost exclusively for their nasty tendency to flame
others, opposed these efforts. Unfortunately, the last serious attempt to get
this done got snagged for 2 main reasons: (1) a lack of a hosting site, and (2)
inability to find enough volunteer moderators.



>> All of these MODERATED groups also have, what for me is another advantage,
>> the participation of various manufacturers, audiophile store owners, and
>> other
>> folks who are directly involved in the audio industry. I find it
>> interesting, at times, to get opinions from people actually "in the
>> trenches" of this hobby, even though they admittedly have certain biases
>> (just like the rest of us). With the exception of Glenn Zelniker and John
>> Atkinson, I can';t think of anybody even remotely connected to the audio
>> industry (i.e. manufacturers,
>> writers, store owners) that participates here. And the lack of
>> moderation, which, of course, encourages personal insults and lack of
>> cvilized debate,
>
>I'm not agree, Bruce. When domination is involved there is no civilized
>debate. We have on RAO participants who are well-know for the violence of
>their argumentation and they never or nearly never write any insults. You
>perfectly know what are their prefered weapons...
>
>> IMHO, has a lot to do with their absence. That's unfortunate.
>
>We also need some free spaces for free speech, RAO is such free zone.
>Personnaly I don't like too much policed places, because I don't believe in
>police integrity... I'm joking. ;-)
>
>> As an aside, for those interested in Martin Logan speakers, there is also
>> an excellent moderated website:
>>
>> www.martinloganowners.com
>
>This is a corporatist NG : a club. ;-)
>

It is not connected with Martin Logan, the company, in any way. The
participants are all either people who own Martin Logan speakers or just people
interested in their products. About the only form of company connection is the
presentation of occasional press releases from the company and the permitted
use of the company logo and some prctures of their products. Company spokesmen
don't participate as a rule in the websites discussion forum or other
activities.


>> This website contains lots of discussions about this particular brand of
>> speakers, audio systems, music, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>



Bruce J. Richman

[Sander deWaal]

Lionel > said:

>RAO is a kind of "bistrot". You come here after your working day to discuss,
>to insult, to rage... without any possible limitations.
>Most of us come to break the dishes against the wall, to get things out of
>their system... But most of us will never admit this.

RAO is my daily laugh.
And it's addictive, like smoking.

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

[Bruce J. Richman]

Sander de Waal wrote:


>Lionel > said:
>
>>RAO is a kind of "bistrot". You come here after your working day to discuss,
>>to insult, to rage... without any possible limitations.
>>Most of us come to break the dishes against the wall, to get things out of
>>their system... But most of us will never admit this.
>
>RAO is my daily laugh.
>And it's addictive, like smoking.
>
>--
>Sander deWaal
>Vacuum Audio Consultancy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

RAO is sort of like the car wreck that everybody slows down to see when
driving.



Bruce J. Richman

[S888Wheel]

>From: Lionel
>Date: 5/4/2004 10:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>
>I haven't any idol. Have you ?

Maybe this is part of the reason you are such a ****.

[S888Wheel]

>From: Lionel
>Date: 5/4/2004 1:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>S888Wheel - > - mardi 4 Mai
>2004 21:55 wrote:
>
>>>From: Lionel
>>>Date: 5/4/2004 10:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>
>>>I haven't any idol. Have you ?
>>
>> Maybe this is part of the reason you are such a ****.
>
>No, no it's not the good reason...
>I am a **** specially for you because you are a well-known "scatophile". :-P
>
>
>
>
>
>

I guess the point went over your head. Maybe Bruce can explain it to you.

[Sander deWaal]

(Bruce J. Richman) said:

>RAO is sort of like the car wreck that everybody slows down to see when
>driving.

I always hate it when that happens.
As a 150 km/day commuter, I see too much accidents happen .

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

[Michael McKelvy]

"Lionel" > wrote in message
...
> Sander deWaal - > - mercredi 5
> Mai 2004 19:45 wrote:
>
> > (Bruce J. Richman) said:
> >
> >>RAO is sort of like the car wreck that everybody slows down to see when
> >>driving.
> >
> > I always hate it when that happens.
> > As a 150 km/day commuter, I see too much accidents happen .
>
> these are really morbid habit and behaviour.
> All lot of people suffer from this absurd curiosity. :-(

And yet you remain.