CD recorder for voice teacher

[Peter A. Stoll]

I solicit your advice that I might help my voice teacher.

For many years of teaching she has recorded every lesson on compact
cassette, with the student taking the cassette at end of lesson. One
purpose is that the teacher records herself playing accompaniment for new
pieces to assist the student. She has not been using hi fidelity gear--
most recently a $60 Radio Shack portable with a built-in lousy microphone
and VOX (ugh!) (I've been lugging in my own recorder and mic each lesson,
just so I can actually hear vocal quality changes in response to her
instruction)

She'd like better sound quality (no kidding), and a medium her students
(mostly junior high and high school students, some adults) can actually
play (fewer have a cassette player available with each passing year). She
thinks this means recording on CD-Rs. She thinks the flash USB drive or CF
card options would be well beyond her students' threshhold of actually
using them.

Price is a real issue. She thinks she can recover the media cost (I told
her to expect about 20 cents) by increasing lesson fees but $1000 capital
would be a huge stretch, and even $500 a problem.

An ideal unit would be inexpensive, nearly completely user-proof (she is
quite low-tech), very near one button to push to start recording and
another to finalize. A very big plus would be if there was a simple way
(one more button ideally) to designate "new track starts now" so she could
make her accompaniment portions easy for the student to find.

For cost and simplicity, a built-in microphone (sigh) is probably best,
though I'd feel a lot better if the unit had optional input for XLR/phantom
power microphone (I might make her a long-term loan of a C1000S I no longer
use--believe me it would be huge upgrade from what she gets now). I'd also
feel better if it could do CD-RWs, preferable with a zero-time over-
recording option (so student bringing back previous lesson can just use it
again). She thinks this not viable for her students, so not a requirement.

It does not have to be portable, but needs to fit in her studio which is
also her living room.

A Roland CD-2 seems to fit the desired capabilities pretty closely--though
quite expensive for her. I'd love to hear comments pro and con from folks
who know about this model--and also from folks who prefer another,
especially something available for appreciably less than $695.

Thank you very much for any comments.

[Peter A. Stoll]

"Peter A. Stoll" > wrote in
. 97.138:

>
> A Roland CD-2 seems to fit the desired capabilities pretty
> closely--though quite expensive for her. I'd love to hear comments
> pro and con from folks who know about this model--and also from folks
> who prefer another, especially something available for appreciably
> less than $695.

Also the Marantz CDR300, also, unfortunately $695.

[Mike Rivers]

Peter A. Stoll wrote:

> For many years of teaching she has recorded every lesson on compact
> cassette, with the student taking the cassette at end of lesson. One
> purpose is that the teacher records herself playing accompaniment for new
> pieces to assist the student. She has not been using hi fidelity gear--
> most recently a $60 Radio Shack portable with a built-in lousy microphone
> and VOX (ugh!) (I've been lugging in my own recorder and mic each lesson,
> just so I can actually hear vocal quality changes in response to her
> instruction)

Teachers are like that. Low tech, no fuss, and real time. But I would
think that if she's been using a cheap cassette recorder for years, not
only is it pretty well worn out, but its cost has been amortized many
times over. It's definitely time for something new.

CD-R is a good idea, but unfortunately there isn't anything within the
meager budget that will do the job. I think that Marantz has one with a
built-in mic, but that's over $600. There are less expensive CD
recorders, but without mics and mic inputs. And still, after the
lesson, she'll have to finalize the CD and she'd going to forget now
and then.

> She thinks the flash USB drive or CF
> card options would be well beyond her students' threshhold of actually
> using them.

Probably not beyond the students, but maybe beyond the teacher. I'll
bet, though, that if she were to put the day's lessons on line I'll bet
all the students could download them to their iPods.

> An ideal unit would be inexpensive, nearly completely user-proof (she is
> quite low-tech), very near one button to push to start recording and
> another to finalize. A very big plus would be if there was a simple way
> (one more button ideally) to designate "new track starts now" so she could
> make her accompaniment portions easy for the student to find.

That's all pretty standard stuff on a stand-alone recorder

> I'd also
> feel better if it could do CD-RWs, preferable with a zero-time over-
> recording option (so student bringing back previous lesson can just use it
> again).

That's a waste. Blank CDs are 20 cents or less, and not erasing a
previous one might be incentive to review an earlier lesson.

Frankly, I'd suggest that she get a new cassette deck. They're still
good for something. If she has one student that doesn't have a cassette
player, then give her old one to that student.

[Ken in Dallas]

Peter wrote:
> ,,,help my voice teacher.
> (she) records herself playing accompaniment
> She'd like better sound quality..
> Price is a real issue.
> she is quite low-tech...one button....recording
> ...a simple way ... to designate "new track starts now"
> ....a built-in microphone ...is probably best.

Peter,

Please take a look at the Olympus WS-320M.
I am amazed how many tasks I use it for.

It is very small -- almost too small. And you
would most likely have to read the book and
then teach her to use it.

I record either off my mixer or using the
recorder's AMAZING stereo mics at 16 bit,
44,100, CD quality. The unit creates .wma
files, which though compressed cannot be
identified from any other 16/44,100 file types
by anyone I have played A/B selections for.

One button turns the unit on.
One button starts it recording.
It automatically numbers recordings
consecutively.

The .wma files transfer via USB to any
computer for CD burning. Most any computer
these days can play the file type, but it can be
converted for 'boombox'" playing if needed.

Full Olympus info is at

http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1195

A popular vendor with it in stock is

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BJ3BRO/ref=nosim/102-8050771-8392933?n=172282

List is $229.99. Street is $165.63

Problems:

The unit is TOO small. It lends itself to getting lost or dropped.
Mine is now shockmounted in a project box, connected via jacks
to mounted 1/4 inch sockets so that I don't over tax the
3.5mm sockets on the unit, but mine gets A LOT of use.

The little speaker on the unit will convince everyone it makes
terrible sounding recordings. Played back through real speakers
it nox off da sox

I've dropped it into my shirt pocket to bootleg concerts. Great
quality. I've recorded hand drum lessons and voice w/piano
lessons with wonderful results. Off the mixer it's killer.

Sure a higher bit/sampling rate is a better recording, but in
an MP3 world, CD quality is up scale.

Mine has paid for itself many times over in the year I've had it.
I don't show it off as its size doesn't instill confidence. I just
laugh all the way to the bank after jobs.

Hoping it all helps some,

Ken in Dallas

[Peter A. Stoll]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in
ups.com:

> Peter A. Stoll wrote:
>
>
> Teachers are like that. Low tech, no fuss, and real time. But I would
> think that if she's been using a cheap cassette recorder for years,
> not only is it pretty well worn out, but its cost has been amortized
> many times over. It's definitely time for something new.

I think the current recorder is only a few years old. I don't know what
model of cassette recorder it replaced, but I think the predecessor died.

> And still, after the
> lesson, she'll have to finalize the CD and she'd going to forget now
> and then.

As she sometimes hits the pause button on her cassette machine, you are
probably right. But she worked at a school which had a CD recorder, and
apparently got past the finalize problem by assigning the task to her
students. She is aware of that issue, and thinks it a problem she can
live with.

> that if she were to put the day's lessons on line I'll
> bet all the students could download them to their iPods.

Maybe in a couple more years. Posting is well beyond her, and here in
Albuquerque I think well under a majority of her students have iPods,
though though probably that is changing fast.

>> I'd also
>> feel better if it could do CD-RWs, preferable with a zero-time over-
>> recording option (so student bringing back previous lesson can just
>> use it again).
>
> That's a waste. Blank CDs are 20 cents or less, and not erasing a
> previous one might be incentive to review an earlier lesson.

She agrees, so that capability is not a priority at all--just a plus.

> Frankly, I'd suggest that she get a new cassette deck. They're still
> good for something. If she has one student that doesn't have a
> cassette player, then give her old one to that student.

In good conscience, I probably should suggest a new cassette recorder
without VOX and with a better microphone to her. But the conversation
started out as "I've got to stop using cassettes" so her mind is rather
firmly set another way.

Given the prices I can find, I probably ought to propose as another
alternate a third option: a cheaper standalone CD recorder plus cheap mic
and cheap preamp. (the cheaper standalone recorders seem generally to
have line-level RCA phonoplug input if anything). It means more boxes
and knobs, which violates the simplicity rule, but if I knew what to look
for surely I could put mic and preamp together that would be vastly
better than her existing rig for perhaps half the overall price of a new
Marantz CDR300 or Roland CD-2. m-Audio Audio Buddy at $90 seems the most
obvious choice of Swee****er's current offerings for a non fake-tube two
channel cheap preamp. This paired with a $100 microphone would probably
mean sound that is streets ahead of her cassette, and very possibly ahead
of the built-in mic on the $700 all-in-ones, at about half the price. It
has worse growth potential, build quality, and reliability, and one-box
simplicity, I suppose.

I'm a bit worried about input flexibility on the Audio Buddy. It has
phantom XLR OK, but the alternate 1/4' unbalanced inputs are described as
matched to typical electric guitar. Does that mean the gain range might
not suit a consumer microphone with 1/4" connect she might try? (the
specs say 60dB max gain on the XLR mic in, 40dB max gain on the 1/4"
"instrument" input).

[Peter A. Stoll]

"Ken in Dallas" > wrote in
oups.com:

> Peter wrote:
>> ,,,help my voice teacher.
>> (she) records herself playing accompaniment
>> She'd like better sound quality..
>> Price is a real issue.
>
> Peter,
>
> Please take a look at the Olympus WS-320M.
>
> The .wma files transfer via USB to any
> computer for CD burning.

Thanks for suggesting, but that is a show-stopper, I think. Her model is
that the finished student presses the finalize button, and a minute or two
later leaves CD in hand, while teacher greats and starts with next student.
Going over to her computer and doing techie stuff (or, worse yet, moving
the computer into her living room--did I mention her other profession is
interior design?).

> Ken in Dallas
>

[Mike Rivers]

Peter A. Stoll wrote:

> Given the prices I can find, I probably ought to propose as another
> alternate a third option: a cheaper standalone CD recorder plus cheap mic
> and cheap preamp. (the cheaper standalone recorders seem generally to
> have line-level RCA phonoplug input if anything). It means more boxes
> and knobs, which violates the simplicity rule, but if I knew what to look
> for surely I could put mic and preamp together that would be vastly
> better than her existing rig for perhaps half the overall price of a new
> Marantz CDR300 or Roland CD-2. m-Audio Audio Buddy at $90 seems the most
> obvious choice of Swee****er's current offerings for a non fake-tube two
> channel cheap preamp. This paired with a $100 microphone would probably
> mean sound that is streets ahead of her cassette, and very possibly ahead
> of the built-in mic on the $700 all-in-ones, at about half the price.

If you think she can deal with it, that's clearly the best approach.
You seem willing to get it set up for her and teach her how to use it,
but one of these days she's going to bump a knob or turn something off
and not turn it on,. Perhaps some gaffer tape will be in order. And as
long as she'll be making a stereo recording, you might think about
getting two $50 mics (which were $100 mics just about four hours ago
<g>) rather than one $100 mic. That way one can go on the piano so its
track will have mostly accompaniment and the other can pick up the
teacher and student's voices with whatever piano leakage there is. That
way a student could listen to the accompaniment (mostly) and sing
along.

> I'm a bit worried about input flexibility on the Audio Buddy. It has
> phantom XLR OK, but the alternate 1/4' unbalanced inputs are described as
> matched to typical electric guitar. Does that mean the gain range might
> not suit a consumer microphone with 1/4" connect she might try?

The 1/4" jacks are high impedance and have an input sensitivity
somewhat greater than pro line level, but not really suitable for
anything but an antique crystal mic (or a modern crystal harmonica
mic). But unless Radio Shack is going to be your source, there are very
few consumer grade mics with 1/4" plugs any more. Either they'll be
mini plugs intended to plug into a computer or they'll have XLRs. The
early generation Audio Buddy had less than 48V phantom power. I think
the current model provides 48V, but best to check, to be sure that
whatever mics you get will work.

[Laurence Payne]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:04:48 -0500, "Peter A. Stoll"
> wrote:

>She'd like better sound quality (no kidding), and a medium her students
>(mostly junior high and high school students, some adults) can actually
>play (fewer have a cassette player available with each passing year). She
>thinks this means recording on CD-Rs. She thinks the flash USB drive or CF
>card options would be well beyond her students' threshhold of actually
>using them.

She may be mistaken about each student's willingness to provide and
use a 1GB USB drive. Has she asked them?

[Richard Crowley]

"Laurence Payne" wrote ...
> "Peter A. Stoll" wrote:
>>She'd like better sound quality (no kidding), and a medium her students
>>(mostly junior high and high school students, some adults) can actually
>>play (fewer have a cassette player available with each passing year). She
>>thinks this means recording on CD-Rs. She thinks the flash USB drive or
>>CF
>>card options would be well beyond her students' threshhold of actually
>>using them.
>
> She may be mistaken about each student's willingness to provide and
> use a 1GB USB drive. Has she asked them?

1GB USB drives appear to have come down to ~$20.
I thought they were still up >$50 until I looked it up.

But it takes a certain youth/techno clientele to use them.

Might be able to get away with smaller/cheaper ones if
recorded directly in MP3 (which could be directly down-
loaded to kids' players)

[Peter A. Stoll]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in
ups.com:

> Peter A. Stoll wrote:
>

> You seem willing to get it set up for her and teach her how to use it,
> but one of these days she's going to bump a knob or turn something off
> and not turn it on,. Perhaps some gaffer tape will be in order.

Good thing to worry about. If she goes for this option I'll definitely
hold her hand, and probably mark default volume settings on tape... I may
need to provide a script.

> And as
> long as she'll be making a stereo recording, you might think about
> getting two $50 mics (which were $100 mics just about four hours ago
> <g>) rather than one $100 mic.

Two mics would also give her a head start on possible future use to record
recitals and such. (I've been doing that using a pair of Josephson C42s and
an SD722, but I won't be around forever). I had been thinking of running a
Y from the preamp output to both inputs of the CD recorder (unless it has
internal patching, which I'd not expect). I'd be really happy to hear
suggestions for microphones in the $50-100 range. The "try a bunch and
send the ones you don't like back" approach is probably not applicable in
that price range. For her use they need to be robust, unlikely to die, and
undemanding of their preamp. I may loan her my C1000S pair, which I don't
use now. Yes, I know they are despised on this group, but they clobber the
setup she has now. And free is a hard price to beat.

Thanks for your comments.

[Peter A. Stoll]

Laurence Payne <lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom> wrote in
:

> On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:04:48 -0500, "Peter A. Stoll"
> > wrote:
>
>>... She thinks this means recording on CD-Rs. She thinks
>>the flash USB drive or CF card options would be well beyond her
>>students' threshhold of actually using them.
>
> She may be mistaken about each student's willingness to provide and
> use a 1GB USB drive. Has she asked them?

I'm sure she has not asked. I suspect her negative reaction is based on
low rates of compliance in actually practicing, bringing in cassette tapes,
etc. I'm pretty sure she feels it has to be something she just hands to
the student on the way out the door, with lowest possible effort required
to use.

[Peter A. Stoll]

"Richard Crowley" > wrote in
:

> 1GB USB drives appear to have come down to ~$20.
> I thought they were still up >$50 until I looked it up.

Wow, that is even lower than I thought, also. Her lessons are half hour
officially, and mono is a real option, so even smaller is possible, though
I doubt one beats the $20 by very much anyway. I record mine at mono
24/44.1, and generally bring home mid 300 Mbytes, but I think she chats
with me more than some, and the folks scheduled after me are remarkably
unlikely to show up.

> But it takes a certain youth/techno clientele to use them.

Young they are, most are junior high and high school girls. I don't think
very many of them are very techno at all (and yes, I do know some seriously
techno high school girls and boys--most of her students just don't seem to
be from that demographic).

In a perfect world I'd like to see her students carrying CF cards. They
are robust, cheap, and very well standardized, and there are some pretty
nice CF card recorders out there. No waste, and the more diligent students
with bigger drives on their PCs can keep a whole season at home easily.
But the objections to USB drives apply to CF cards in spades, and except
for the m-audio model, the CF recorders out there are not cheap on her
scale. So far I don't expect to even pitch this as an option to her.

[Mike Rivers]

Peter A. Stoll wrote:

> I'd be really happy to hear
> suggestions for microphones in the $50-100 range.

Hooooooo, boy, have I got a deal for you!

http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product?full_sku=703626

This is a bundle including one each MXL 990 and 991 mic and an Audio
Buddy, for $100, good until August 31. Those mics are the same capsule
in two different bodies, one pencil style (for all practical purposes,
same as the MXL 603) that looks like it's the right mic for the piano,
the other in a "large diaphragm" style body that looks like it's right
for vocals. They're not Josephsons, so you'll probalby still have to do
her recital recordings, but they're perfectly suitable for this
application.

[Peter A. Stoll]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in news:1156423045.956407.174740
@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

>> I'd be really happy to hear
>> suggestions for microphones in the $50-100 range.
>
> Hooooooo, boy, have I got a deal for you!
>
> http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product?full_sku=703626
>
> This is a bundle including one each MXL 990 and 991 mic and an Audio
> Buddy, for $100, good until August 31.

Yes, that looks very interesting, as price is a major concern on this deal.

As I would have had no idea of the microphone behavior without your
comment, I am twice grateful--once for the price tip, and once for the
assessment.

[Mike Rivers]

Peter A. Stoll wrote:

> > This is a bundle including one each MXL 990 and 991 mic and an Audio
> > Buddy, for $100, good until August 31.

> As I would have had no idea of the microphone behavior without your
> comment, I am twice grateful--once for the price tip, and once for the
> assessment.

I picked up that bundle when I was doing a banjo recording workshop and
wanted to have a new-cheap condenser mic to compare to some of my
favorites. The 991, the small body one, sounded better than a KM84 on
some banjos, and there was never a combination of banjo and player
where I simply wouldn't want to use it. It won't get all the nuances of
a fine mic on the piano, but it will give a very good representation of
the accompaniment.