outboard focused bass guitar rig

[nweststeyn]

I've been dabbling in finding a better bass sound for too long now.
Obviously money is always an object, but I decided to try thinking
outside of the box for a minute. No SVTs, 400+s or Traynors. I want
something simple, that sounds great. A simple preamp, a simple EQ and a
simple poweramp. Is there anything anyone would recommend (both Pre's
and EQ's), which will then run to a poweramp?

For the pre, I was considering an RNP. Have played through one numerous
times and it is always used instead of my regular amp (a tech 21
landmark heapojunk).

EQ wise, How would the great river eq-1 work in such a rig, or the
summit feq-50...

Also, i'd be interested in what you would create given a bigger budget.


Any recommendations would be much appreciated.

Nico

[Nick Brown]

A while back I picked up a Focusrite Tonemaster channel strip - I'm no
great fan of channel strips in general, but I reckoned this might be a
convenient thing to play bass through. It turns out to have been a very
good move - the adjustable high-pass filter (which has two modes, one
quite smooth and one with a little more character) and two band
semi-parametric EQ allow me to get a good range of sounds quickly.

There's also an amp-style EQ, which is kind of alright (though you
should factor in my general dislike of guitar amps here), and has the
useful trick of allowing the treble control to be switched to become a
high mid, which seems to do a good job of helping to get a
plectrum-style bright attack to the sound when playing without a
plectrum (I have a general dislike of those as well).

The weak points: the distortion is useable at very low settings to give
the sound a bit of an edge, but not much beyond that. The compressor
doesn't sound bad, but with a choice of only two ratios, and a
threshold control that doesn't go low enough for what I want, I ended
up patching a different compressor into the Focusrite's insert point.

The compressor I use is a Symetrix 501, which I'm very happy with for
bass - very quick and easy to set up, good gain reduction metering, and
sounds transparent in use.

For the power amp, I can't help you. Both the Focusrite and Symetrix
units are obsolete so unfortunately you'll not just be able to go to a
shop and try them out, you'll have to track them down on eBay or
through classifieds. Even so, I think they're well worth a look, and
won't cost a lot.

Cheers,
Nick


nweststeyn wrote:
> I've been dabbling in finding a better bass sound for too long now.
> Obviously money is always an object, but I decided to try thinking
> outside of the box for a minute. No SVTs, 400+s or Traynors. I want
> something simple, that sounds great. A simple preamp, a simple EQ and a
> simple poweramp. Is there anything anyone would recommend (both Pre's
> and EQ's), which will then run to a poweramp?
>
> For the pre, I was considering an RNP. Have played through one numerous
> times and it is always used instead of my regular amp (a tech 21
> landmark heapojunk).
>
> EQ wise, How would the great river eq-1 work in such a rig, or the
> summit feq-50...
>
> Also, i'd be interested in what you would create given a bigger budget.
>
>
> Any recommendations would be much appreciated.
>
> Nico

[frenchy]

Interesting topic. I have been playing bass into a Focusrite Platinum
Tonefactory directly into one channel of a QSC PLX 2400 feeding an 8ohm
Ampeg 4x10 with a blown/disconnected horn and an 8ohm Ampeg 18".

Other bass players say they love the clean sound and power when they
share my rig. When everything is stacked up along with my 8-space
roadcase it is over 6feet tall.

Some rooms sound absolutely great. Some bigger stages sound very
strange in the sense that when I stand directly in front of it
everything is OK, but when I step just a couple of feet to the side to
move toward someone else it disappears and sounds aweful. I then
wonder what the hell the other band members are hearing...then I step
back infront of my amp and it sounds great again. Makes me wonder if I
need different speakers....these are well over 15 years old....or am I
having some kind of phase issue with my banana plugs on the back of the
QSC (I have checked that the red matches the tip of the 1/4" speaker
plug.)

A few weeks ago we played a festival in Kentucky and was very surprised
to find that Oteil and the Peacemakers were playing two slots before
us. After admiring his playing, I watched his people unload 3 Epifani
cabinets. Each one was semi-small and manageable especially compared
to my big monsters. Makes me wonder if I should be pushing my clean
QSC power into smaller, tighter speakers that are easier to carry. The
18" was cool 10 years ago, but I'm not convinced anymore.

Sorry for the speaker tangent, but I guess my point is that no matter
how tight and clean your signal is coming out of your preamp & amp the
speakers can potentially ruin it....I have been happy with my Focusrite
straight into the QSC...the EQ flexibility lets me dial in different
rooms quickly...and the power is clean and tight...with another whole
channel sitting unused...3 rack spaces total. (I tried an all tube
fender bassman head a while back and hated it--it was the opposite of
clean and tight, it was dirty and loose).

I debate whether I should bring my Avalon U5 on the road directly into
the QSC, but without parametric EQ and a way to tame the superlows, I
fear that some rooms might be great and some rooms might be not great.

I think if I had a big budget, I would like to try...
Hamer Cruise5 with Bartolinis (current bass from 10,000 Maniacs guy)->
Avalon U5->
Some EQ (Speck ASC?)->
Some compressor (RNC?)->
QSC PLX 2400->
2, 3, or 4 Smallish Epifanis like Oteil

Sorry for being so long-winded, I look forward to the other responses.
I think I'll get new speakers first, then experiment with my front-end
a little more as phase2....for now I'm happy with the front end
assuming the Focusrite doesnt crap out on me anymore...2 broken
solderjoints and counting...good thing I have a soldering iron, but its
a PITA to take apart & put back together.

respectfully,
frenchy

Steve French
www.houseofharmonystudios.com/
http://www.biglegemma.com/



nweststeyn wrote:
> I've been dabbling in finding a better bass sound for too long now.
> Obviously money is always an object, but I decided to try thinking
> outside of the box for a minute. No SVTs, 400+s or Traynors. I want
> something simple, that sounds great. A simple preamp, a simple EQ and a
> simple poweramp. Is there anything anyone would recommend (both Pre's
> and EQ's), which will then run to a poweramp?
>
> For the pre, I was considering an RNP. Have played through one numerous
> times and it is always used instead of my regular amp (a tech 21
> landmark heapojunk).
>
> EQ wise, How would the great river eq-1 work in such a rig, or the
> summit feq-50...
>
> Also, i'd be interested in what you would create given a bigger budget.
>
>
> Any recommendations would be much appreciated.
>
> Nico

[Nick Brown]

I got the name wrong in my last post, not tone master but tone factory
- that's what mine is as well.
-Nick


frenchy wrote:
> Interesting topic. I have been playing bass into a Focusrite Platinum
> Tonefactory directly into one channel of a QSC PLX 2400 feeding an 8ohm
> Ampeg 4x10 with a blown/disconnected horn and an 8ohm Ampeg 18".
>
> Other bass players say they love the clean sound and power when they
> share my rig. When everything is stacked up along with my 8-space
> roadcase it is over 6feet tall.
>
> Some rooms sound absolutely great. Some bigger stages sound very
> strange in the sense that when I stand directly in front of it
> everything is OK, but when I step just a couple of feet to the side to
> move toward someone else it disappears and sounds aweful. I then
> wonder what the hell the other band members are hearing...then I step
> back infront of my amp and it sounds great again. Makes me wonder if I
> need different speakers....these are well over 15 years old....or am I
> having some kind of phase issue with my banana plugs on the back of the
> QSC (I have checked that the red matches the tip of the 1/4" speaker
> plug.)
>
> A few weeks ago we played a festival in Kentucky and was very surprised
> to find that Oteil and the Peacemakers were playing two slots before
> us. After admiring his playing, I watched his people unload 3 Epifani
> cabinets. Each one was semi-small and manageable especially compared
> to my big monsters. Makes me wonder if I should be pushing my clean
> QSC power into smaller, tighter speakers that are easier to carry. The
> 18" was cool 10 years ago, but I'm not convinced anymore.
>
> Sorry for the speaker tangent, but I guess my point is that no matter
> how tight and clean your signal is coming out of your preamp & amp the
> speakers can potentially ruin it....I have been happy with my Focusrite
> straight into the QSC...the EQ flexibility lets me dial in different
> rooms quickly...and the power is clean and tight...with another whole
> channel sitting unused...3 rack spaces total. (I tried an all tube
> fender bassman head a while back and hated it--it was the opposite of
> clean and tight, it was dirty and loose).
>
> I debate whether I should bring my Avalon U5 on the road directly into
> the QSC, but without parametric EQ and a way to tame the superlows, I
> fear that some rooms might be great and some rooms might be not great.
>
> I think if I had a big budget, I would like to try...
> Hamer Cruise5 with Bartolinis (current bass from 10,000 Maniacs guy)->
> Avalon U5->
> Some EQ (Speck ASC?)->
> Some compressor (RNC?)->
> QSC PLX 2400->
> 2, 3, or 4 Smallish Epifanis like Oteil
>
> Sorry for being so long-winded, I look forward to the other responses.
> I think I'll get new speakers first, then experiment with my front-end
> a little more as phase2....for now I'm happy with the front end
> assuming the Focusrite doesnt crap out on me anymore...2 broken
> solderjoints and counting...good thing I have a soldering iron, but its
> a PITA to take apart & put back together.
>
> respectfully,
> frenchy
>
> Steve French
> www.houseofharmonystudios.com/
> http://www.biglegemma.com/
>
>
>
> nweststeyn wrote:
> > I've been dabbling in finding a better bass sound for too long now.
> > Obviously money is always an object, but I decided to try thinking
> > outside of the box for a minute. No SVTs, 400+s or Traynors. I want
> > something simple, that sounds great. A simple preamp, a simple EQ and a
> > simple poweramp. Is there anything anyone would recommend (both Pre's
> > and EQ's), which will then run to a poweramp?
> >
> > For the pre, I was considering an RNP. Have played through one numerous
> > times and it is always used instead of my regular amp (a tech 21
> > landmark heapojunk).
> >
> > EQ wise, How would the great river eq-1 work in such a rig, or the
> > summit feq-50...
> >
> > Also, i'd be interested in what you would create given a bigger budget.
> >
> >
> > Any recommendations would be much appreciated.
> >
> > Nico

[GregS]

In article m>, "frenchy" > wrote:
>Interesting topic. I have been playing bass into a Focusrite Platinum
>Tonefactory directly into one channel of a QSC PLX 2400 feeding an 8ohm
>Ampeg 4x10 with a blown/disconnected horn and an 8ohm Ampeg 18".
>
>Other bass players say they love the clean sound and power when they
>share my rig. When everything is stacked up along with my 8-space
>roadcase it is over 6feet tall.
>
>Some rooms sound absolutely great. Some bigger stages sound very
>strange in the sense that when I stand directly in front of it
>everything is OK, but when I step just a couple of feet to the side to
>move toward someone else it disappears and sounds aweful. I then
>wonder what the hell the other band members are hearing...then I step
>back infront of my amp and it sounds great again. Makes me wonder if I
>need different speakers....these are well over 15 years old....or am I
>having some kind of phase issue with my banana plugs on the back of the
>QSC (I have checked that the red matches the tip of the 1/4" speaker
>plug.)

I would try disconnecting the pair and listen to them individually and alltogether
comparing phasing to the sides and front.

A big speaker is necessary for efficiency and generally also tends
to go lower. You can use smaller speakers that have less efficiency, but
then you need enough to generate enough SPL using more power.
The cabinets of old had little clue on build and tunning other than trial
and error. Its possible to build smaller, but its just going to not
sound as loud. I like building blocks where you can add as you need
it, and get more SPL when you need it.

greg

[frenchy]

GregS wrote:
> >Some rooms sound absolutely great. Some bigger stages sound very
> >strange in the sense that when I stand directly in front of it
> >everything is OK, but when I step just a couple of feet to the side to
> >move toward someone else it disappears and sounds aweful. I then
> >wonder what the hell the other band members are hearing...then I step
> >back infront of my amp and it sounds great again. Makes me wonder if I
> >need different speakers....these are well over 15 years old....or am I
> >having some kind of phase issue with my banana plugs on the back of the
> >QSC (I have checked that the red matches the tip of the 1/4" speaker
> >plug.)
>
> I would try disconnecting the pair and listen to them individually and alltogether
> comparing phasing to the sides and front.
>
> A big speaker is necessary for efficiency and generally also tends
> to go lower. You can use smaller speakers that have less efficiency, but
> then you need enough to generate enough SPL using more power.
> The cabinets of old had little clue on build and tunning other than trial
> and error. Its possible to build smaller, but its just going to not
> sound as loud. I like building blocks where you can add as you need
> it, and get more SPL when you need it.
>
> greg

Sorry to the original poster, nweststeyn, for hijacking the thread into
a speaker direction.

Greg, your final sentence above is in support of the smaller building
blocks and adding more of them for more SPL.....your 1st sentence,
however, hints that this might sacrifice on the low end. My gut tells
me that losing low end for a bassman is bad, but I often wonder if lots
of super-low is good onstage especially when the FOH has plenty
(sometimes they do anyway). I guess it depends on the room/stage.

When I do my front/side phase test with the speakers together/separate
should I do it outside? I am assuming that the room I do it in will
have a major impact. The shows I notice the off-axis weirdness seem to
be outside shows mostly.

thx again,
frenchy

[frenchy]

Nick Brown wrote:
> I got the name wrong in my last post, not tone master but tone factory
> - that's what mine is as well.
> -Nick

Nick,
Yeah, its a nice "swissarmy knife" in a 1U rack. It can run a live
bass rig nicely, then you can use it to track vocals or other
instruments in the studio the next day. I have always used the
built-in compressor lightly only because its there and I dont have
another. Thanks for the symmetrix idea, I am ready to try out some
other compressor real soon via the insert point. I do like all the EQ
flexibility, though I wonder if a dedicated bass preamp like the Kern
or the Aguilar units would be "better". You did spark my interest to
try the distortion again and to experiment with the hi-mid switch
again.

thx,
frenchy

[GregS]

In article . com>, "frenchy" > wrote:
>
>GregS wrote:
>> >Some rooms sound absolutely great. Some bigger stages sound very
>> >strange in the sense that when I stand directly in front of it
>> >everything is OK, but when I step just a couple of feet to the side to
>> >move toward someone else it disappears and sounds aweful. I then
>> >wonder what the hell the other band members are hearing...then I step
>> >back infront of my amp and it sounds great again. Makes me wonder if I
>> >need different speakers....these are well over 15 years old....or am I
>> >having some kind of phase issue with my banana plugs on the back of the
>> >QSC (I have checked that the red matches the tip of the 1/4" speaker
>> >plug.)
>>
>> I would try disconnecting the pair and listen to them individually and
> alltogether
>> comparing phasing to the sides and front.
>>
>> A big speaker is necessary for efficiency and generally also tends
>> to go lower. You can use smaller speakers that have less efficiency, but
>> then you need enough to generate enough SPL using more power.
>> The cabinets of old had little clue on build and tunning other than trial
>> and error. Its possible to build smaller, but its just going to not
>> sound as loud. I like building blocks where you can add as you need
>> it, and get more SPL when you need it.
>>
>> greg
>
>Sorry to the original poster, nweststeyn, for hijacking the thread into
>a speaker direction.
>
>Greg, your final sentence above is in support of the smaller building
>blocks and adding more of them for more SPL.....your 1st sentence,
>however, hints that this might sacrifice on the low end. My gut tells
>me that losing low end for a bassman is bad, but I often wonder if lots
>of super-low is good onstage especially when the FOH has plenty
>(sometimes they do anyway). I guess it depends on the room/stage.

You can get low bass extension but with reduced SPL. It all depends on box
design and driver design. I read with interest a Speaker Building article by
Len Moskowitz of his 10 inch bass cab. I think his design is well known,
and plans may be on the web. When you add more blocks, the efficiency
goes up, say 2 8 ohm cabs in parallel produce 6 dB more output. 4 would
produce the same output at the same power, but you could use more power
in that case, and iseal tube load or solid state bridged load.


>When I do my front/side phase test with the speakers together/separate
>should I do it outside? I am assuming that the room I do it in will
>have a major impact. The shows I notice the off-axis weirdness seem to
>be outside shows mostly.

I would try things as much as possible in every way.

greg

[GregS]

In article >, (GregS) wrote:
>In article . com>, "frenchy"
> > wrote:
>>
>>GregS wrote:
>>> >Some rooms sound absolutely great. Some bigger stages sound very
>>> >strange in the sense that when I stand directly in front of it
>>> >everything is OK, but when I step just a couple of feet to the side to
>>> >move t
>You can get low bass extension but with reduced SPL. It all depends on box
>design and driver design. I read with interest a Speaker Building article by
>Len Moskowitz of his 10 inch bass cab. I think his design is well known,
>and plans may be on the web. When you add more blocks, the efficiency
>goes up, say 2 8 ohm cabs in parallel produce 6 dB more output. 4 would
>produce the same output at the same power, but you could use more power
>in that case, and iseal tube load or solid state bridged load.
>
>
>>When I do my front/side phase test with the speakers together/separate
>>should I do it outside? I am assuming that the room I do it in will
>>have a major impact. The shows I notice the off-axis weirdness seem to
>>be outside shows mostly.
>
>I would try things as much as possible in every way.
>
>greg


http://www.core-sound.com//bottom-article.html

[GregS]

In article >, (GregS) wrote:
>In article >, (GregS)
> wrote:
>>In article . com>, "frenchy"
>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>GregS wrote:
>>>> >Some rooms sound absolutely great. Some bigger stages sound very
>>>> >strange in the sense that when I stand directly in front of it
>>>> >everything is OK, but when I step just a couple of feet to the side to
>>>> >move t
>>You can get low bass extension but with reduced SPL. It all depends on box
>>design and driver design. I read with interest a Speaker Building article by
>>Len Moskowitz of his 10 inch bass cab. I think his design is well known,
>>and plans may be on the web. When you add more blocks, the efficiency
>>goes up, say 2 8 ohm cabs in parallel produce 6 dB more output. 4 would
>>produce the same output at the same power, but you could use more power
>>in that case, and iseal tube load or solid state bridged load.
>>
>>
>>>When I do my front/side phase test with the speakers together/separate
>>>should I do it outside? I am assuming that the room I do it in will
>>>have a major impact. The shows I notice the off-axis weirdness seem to
>>>be outside shows mostly.
>>
>>I would try things as much as possible in every way.
>>
>>greg
>
>
>http://www.core-sound.com//bottom-article.html

There was also this fellow who used big 15 or 18 inch drivers
in a cement form, something like a 55 gallon drum system, but
lets not get into that one.

greg

[Michael Wozniak]

"nweststeyn" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've been dabbling in finding a better bass sound for too long now.
> Obviously money is always an object, but I decided to try thinking
> outside of the box for a minute. No SVTs, 400+s or Traynors. I want
> something simple, that sounds great. A simple preamp, a simple EQ and a
> simple poweramp. Is there anything anyone would recommend (both Pre's
> and EQ's), which will then run to a poweramp?
>
> For the pre, I was considering an RNP. Have played through one numerous
> times and it is always used instead of my regular amp (a tech 21
> landmark heapojunk).
>
> EQ wise, How would the great river eq-1 work in such a rig, or the
> summit feq-50...
>
> Also, i'd be interested in what you would create given a bigger budget.
>
>
> Any recommendations would be much appreciated.
>
If you're going to spend RNP/Great River $, why not consider the Avalon U5,
Evil Twin, or something from Demeter?

Mikey
Nova Music Productions
> Nico
>

[nweststeyn]

Michael Wozniak wrote:
> >
> If you're going to spend RNP/Great River $, why not consider the Avalon U5,
> Evil Twin, or something from Demeter?
>
> Mikey
> Nova Music Productions
> >
> >

Funny you should mention it, the U5 has been on my to buy list for a
long time... but I always forget about its capabilities as a preamp!
It's a great unit, and although only having used it as a DI - it was
the DI that helped create my favourite bass sound I have captured on
record, so i've been meaning to buy my own. I'd still want a seperate
EQ however, as I wasn't a fan of the 'shapes' pre-programmed into it.

And no problem about the cabinet discussions, I don't consider it a
hijack at all! I personally play through a wall of 10"s... They provide
plenty punch, and when I'm in the bigger venues I'll be running through
PA anyway.