Recommendations for Backup Software for LP/CD Database

[Bruce J. Richman]

While I probably should have done it long ago, I've decided it's finally come
time to backup a rather large LP/CD database that I've had on Paradox 7.0 for
many years. The database has about 7 different variables and they are
constantly being updated. There are about 1800 separate items (LPs/CDs) on the
database. My computer platform is a Windows-XP (Home Edition) based Dell
Dimension 8200 with enough hard drive storage so that space is not currently a
problem.

Can somebody recommend an easy-to-use backup software package that can provide
easy backup on to CDs or DVDs (I have burners for both in my computer, although
I presume CDs would be more cost-effective?). While I may eventually get an
external hard drive to which data could be transferred, I prefer to start at a
more basic level.

Ideally, I'd like a backup program that comes with manuals such as the type one
might get at CompUSA or similar store. The program should provide for easy
automatic daily or weekly backups in which newly modified/added data is saved.
Also, I understand some of these programs can provide "ghost images" of entire
hard drives? (I've done a little research on the Internet, but forget the
names of the programs that do this).

At any rate, my initial backup requirements involve the Paradox 7.0 database
and also, a large number of Wordperfect 6.0 files, and a smaller number of Word
2000 files.

All recommendations welcome, and let's forego the flames for a change.



Bruce J. Richman

[Powell]

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote

> While I probably should have done it long ago, I've
> decided it's finally come time to backup a rather large
> LP/CD database that I've had on Paradox 7.0 for
> many years.
>
"Large"... please define?


> The database has about 7 different variables and
> they are constantly being updated. There are about
> 1800 separate items (LPs/CDs) on the database.
>
Are we talking about a text based database? Have
you embedded wav or graphics files into it, too?
1800 is retavely small... unlike the time it takes to
keep it updated, I sure :).


> Ideally, I'd like a backup program that comes with
> manuals such as the type one might get at CompUSA
> or similar store. The program should provide for easy
> automatic daily or weekly backups in which newly
> modified/added data is saved.
>
"Easy backup on to CDs or DVDs"... are you prepared
for the hassle of always having a fresh blank in the
CD/DVD tray which would be required for auto backup...
depending on incremental or deferential backup file
size required?

You can get a 120GB internal drives cheap and they
are simple to install in your Dell. I pickup a 300GB
external HD last summer and it has been a no
brainer. The first priority of backup safely is to keep
the backup stored out of the building. These external
drives make that task simple. Do you have room in
your safe/safety deposit box for the cake of disks you’ll
generate in a couple of years :)?


> Also, I understand some of these programs can
> provide "ghost images" of entire hard drives? (I've
> done a little research on the Internet, but forget the
> names of the programs that do this).
>
> At any rate, my initial backup requirements involve the
> Paradox 7.0 database and also, a large number of
> Wordperfect 6.0 files, and a smaller number of Word
> 2000 files.
>
Hehehe... WP 6, 12 get released in May.


> All recommendations welcome, and let's forego
> the flames for a change.
>
Whoops, did I flame you :)?

[Bruce J. Richman]

Powell wrote:


>"Bruce J. Richman" wrote
>
>> While I probably should have done it long ago, I've
>> decided it's finally come time to backup a rather large
>> LP/CD database that I've had on Paradox 7.0 for
>> many years.
>>
>"Large"... please define?
>

OK - you got me. :) Only large for an LP/CD database, I suppose. The actual
database file is about 1800 KB and expands and contracts from time to time.
The total Paradox program, including a number of different files and some
shared is more in the neighborhood of about 30 MB.


>
>> The database has about 7 different variables and
>> they are constantly being updated. There are about
>> 1800 separate items (LPs/CDs) on the database.
>>
>Are we talking about a text based database? Have
>you embedded wav or graphics files into it, too?

No, it is strictly text basic. There are no graphics or wav. files involved.
>1800 is retavely small... unlike the time it takes to
>keep it updated, I sure :).
>

Right. The initial database setup was very labor intensive.


>
>> Ideally, I'd like a backup program that comes with
>> manuals such as the type one might get at CompUSA
>> or similar store. The program should provide for easy
>> automatic daily or weekly backups in which newly
>> modified/added data is saved.
>>
>"Easy backup on to CDs or DVDs"... are you prepared
>for the hassle of always having a fresh blank in the
>CD/DVD tray which would be required for auto backup...
>depending on incremental or deferential backup file
>size required?
>

I realize that would be a nuisance, but am probably willing to do this
initially.


>You can get a 120GB internal drives cheap and they
>are simple to install in your Dell.

It probably would be. Actually my Dell only has a 40 GB drive, and I haven't
even come close to filling it up. Also, I have plenty of open bays. However,
I thought the risk here would be that if the computer "totally" crashed, both
drives could be destroyed. Am I wrong?


I pickup a 300GB
>external HD last summer and it has been a no
>brainer. The first priority of backup safely is to keep
>the backup stored out of the building. These external
>drives make that task simple. Do you have room in
>your safe/safety deposit box for the cake of disks you’ll
>generate in a couple of years :)?
>

Probably - although I suspect I'd eventually go to an external hard drive. I
just want to test the waters in a small way first with a backup of just the
Paradox & WP files. No doubt, I'll do the rest of it later.


>
>> Also, I understand some of these programs can
>> provide "ghost images" of entire hard drives? (I've
>> done a little research on the Internet, but forget the
>> names of the programs that do this).
>>
>> At any rate, my initial backup requirements involve the
>> Paradox 7.0 database and also, a large number of
>> Wordperfect 6.0 files, and a smaller number of Word
>> 2000 files.
>>
>Hehehe... WP 6, 12 get released in May.
>

I know. I've never been a fan of getting the latest upgrades just for the sake
of getting upgrades. I'm not a power word processor user, so my sord
processing needs are easily met by my old version of Word Perfect. For the
same reason, I've never bothered to upgrade Paradox. IOW, if it's not broken,
don't fix it. :)

>
>> All recommendations welcome, and let's forego
>> the flames for a change.
>>
>Whoops, did I flame you :)?
>
>

No, not at all. However, I c ouild still use some software recommendations
that would accomplish the stuff mentioned above. Something that comes with
manuals, preferably.


Bruce J. Richman

[Powell]

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote

> >"Bruce J. Richman" wrote
> >
> >> While I probably should have done it long ago, I've
> >> decided it's finally come time to backup a rather large
> >> LP/CD database that I've had on Paradox 7.0 for
> >> many years.
> >>
> >"Large"... please define?
> >
>
> OK - you got me. :) Only large for an LP/CD
> database, I suppose. The actual database file is
> about 1800 KB and expands and contracts from
> time to time. The total Paradox program, including
> a number of different files and some shared is more
> in the neighborhood of about 30 MB.
>
I think that you will find that most backup programs
will compress your total backup by about a 1/3 +/-.
You could easily do full backups and forget about
incremental or differential backups to save space.
A CD-RW might work well for this type of
application.


> >> Ideally, I'd like a backup program that comes with
> >> manuals such as the type one might get at CompUSA
> >> or similar store. The program should provide for easy
> >> automatic daily or weekly backups in which newly
> >> modified/added data is saved.
> >>
> >"Easy backup on to CDs or DVDs"... are you prepared
> >for the hassle of always having a fresh blank in the
> >CD/DVD tray which would be required for auto backup...
> >depending on incremental or deferential backup file
> >size required?
> >
>
> I realize that would be a nuisance, but am probably
> willing to do this initially.
>
No, I agree a CD is feasible. The sticking point
is finding software that will auto-write to a CD
burner. The scheduled timed backup is easy.
But having drivers to which will auto-start a CD
burner and then auto-recycle the "finalize session,
don't finalize CD" back to waiting for the next job,
a possible sticking point. This is simple process
for HD, 8mm and such.


> >You can get a 120GB internal drives cheap and
> >they are simple to install in your Dell.
>
> It probably would be. Actually my Dell only has a
> 40 GB drive, and I haven't even come close to
> filling it up. Also, I have plenty of open bays.
> However, I thought the risk here would be that
> if the computer "totally" crashed, both drives
> could be destroyed. Am I wrong?
>
Statistically possible, yes. Certainly the hazzard
of fire or virus negates any well designed
electrical surge suppresser. IMHE, I would say
it (two physical HD's) is the most popular
backup scheme used or backing up across a
network to a 2nd computer is popular, too.

How risk adverse are you? Hard drives,
according to Western Digital, crash at the rate
of ½ of 1 percent. Times this by two (2 - HD's
crashing at the same time) would give you a
vanishing low probability. And I suppose the
computer power supply could fry two drives
regardless of surge protection.


> I pickup a 300GB
> >external HD last summer and it has been a no
> >brainer. The first priority of backup safely is to keep
> >the backup stored out of the building. These external
> >drives make that task simple. Do you have room in
> >your safe/safety deposit box for the cake of disks you'll
> >generate in a couple of years :)?
> >
>
> Probably - although I suspect I'd eventually go to
> an external hard drive. I just want to test the
> waters in a small way first with a backup of just the
> Paradox & WP files. No doubt, I'll do the rest of it
> later.
>
I use Veritas backup software:
http://www.veritas.com/index.html

You can download a trial version and see if it
(Netbackup Professional) has the CD burner
drivers you'll need for auto-backup and
re-cycle.


> >> Also, I understand some of these programs can
> >> provide "ghost images" of entire hard drives? (I've
> >> done a little research on the Internet, but forget the
> >> names of the programs that do this).
> >>
> >> At any rate, my initial backup requirements involve the
> >> Paradox 7.0 database and also, a large number of
> >> Wordperfect 6.0 files, and a smaller number of Word
> >> 2000 files.
> >>
> >Hehehe... WP 6, 12 get released in May.
> >
>
> I know. I've never been a fan of getting the latest
> upgrades just for the sake of getting upgrades. I'm
> not a power word processor user, so my sord
> processing needs are easily met by my old version
> of Word Perfect. For the same reason, I've never
> bothered to upgrade Paradox. IOW, if it's not
> broken, don't fix it. :)
>
Okey-dokey, Doc :)!


> >
> >> All recommendations welcome, and let's forego
> >> the flames for a change.
> >>
> >Whoops, did I flame you :)?
> >
> >
>
> No, not at all. However, I c ouild still use some
> software recommendations that would accomplish
> the stuff mentioned above. Something that comes
> with manuals, preferably.
>
Manuals??? Perhaps a 3rd party technical book
would work better. FWIW, there isn't that many
settings in consumer versions of backup software.

[Bruce J. Richman]

Powell wrote:


>"Bruce J. Richman" wrote
>
>> >"Bruce J. Richman" wrote
>> >
>> >> While I probably should have done it long ago, I've
>> >> decided it's finally come time to backup a rather large
>> >> LP/CD database that I've had on Paradox 7.0 for
>> >> many years.
>> >>
>> >"Large"... please define?
>> >
>>
>> OK - you got me. :) Only large for an LP/CD
>> database, I suppose. The actual database file is
>> about 1800 KB and expands and contracts from
>> time to time. The total Paradox program, including
>> a number of different files and some shared is more
>> in the neighborhood of about 30 MB.
>>
>I think that you will find that most backup programs
>will compress your total backup by about a 1/3 +/-.
>You could easily do full backups and forget about
>incremental or differential backups to save space.
>A CD-RW might work well for this type of
>application.
>
>
>> >> Ideally, I'd like a backup program that comes with
>> >> manuals such as the type one might get at CompUSA
>> >> or similar store. The program should provide for easy
>> >> automatic daily or weekly backups in which newly
>> >> modified/added data is saved.
>> >>
>> >"Easy backup on to CDs or DVDs"... are you prepared
>> >for the hassle of always having a fresh blank in the
>> >CD/DVD tray which would be required for auto backup...
>> >depending on incremental or deferential backup file
>> >size required?
>> >
>>
>> I realize that would be a nuisance, but am probably
>> willing to do this initially.
>>
>No, I agree a CD is feasible. The sticking point
>is finding software that will auto-write to a CD
>burner. The scheduled timed backup is easy.
>But having drivers to which will auto-start a CD
>burner and then auto-recycle the "finalize session,
>don't finalize CD" back to waiting for the next job,
>a possible sticking point. This is simple process
>for HD, 8mm and such.
>
>
>> >You can get a 120GB internal drives cheap and
>> >they are simple to install in your Dell.
>>
>> It probably would be. Actually my Dell only has a
>> 40 GB drive, and I haven't even come close to
>> filling it up. Also, I have plenty of open bays.
>> However, I thought the risk here would be that
>> if the computer "totally" crashed, both drives
>> could be destroyed. Am I wrong?
>>
>Statistically possible, yes. Certainly the hazzard
>of fire or virus negates any well designed
>electrical surge suppresser. IMHE, I would say
>it (two physical HD's) is the most popular
>backup scheme used or backing up across a
>network to a 2nd computer is popular, too.
>
>How risk adverse are you? Hard drives,
>according to Western Digital, crash at the rate
>of ½ of 1 percent. Times this by two (2 - HD's
>crashing at the same time) would give you a
>vanishing low probability. And I suppose the
>computer power supply could fry two drives
>regardless of surge protection.
>
>
>> I pickup a 300GB
>> >external HD last summer and it has been a no
>> >brainer. The first priority of backup safely is to keep
>> >the backup stored out of the building. These external
>> >drives make that task simple. Do you have room in
>> >your safe/safety deposit box for the cake of disks you'll
>> >generate in a couple of years :)?
>> >
>>
>> Probably - although I suspect I'd eventually go to
>> an external hard drive. I just want to test the
>> waters in a small way first with a backup of just the
>> Paradox & WP files. No doubt, I'll do the rest of it
>> later.
>>
>I use Veritas backup software:
>http://www.veritas.com/index.html
>
>You can download a trial version and see if it
>(Netbackup Professional) has the CD burner
>drivers you'll need for auto-backup and
>re-cycle.
>
>
>> >> Also, I understand some of these programs can
>> >> provide "ghost images" of entire hard drives? (I've
>> >> done a little research on the Internet, but forget the
>> >> names of the programs that do this).
>> >>
>> >> At any rate, my initial backup requirements involve the
>> >> Paradox 7.0 database and also, a large number of
>> >> Wordperfect 6.0 files, and a smaller number of Word
>> >> 2000 files.
>> >>
>> >Hehehe... WP 6, 12 get released in May.
>> >
>>
>> I know. I've never been a fan of getting the latest
>> upgrades just for the sake of getting upgrades. I'm
>> not a power word processor user, so my sord
>> processing needs are easily met by my old version
>> of Word Perfect. For the same reason, I've never
>> bothered to upgrade Paradox. IOW, if it's not
>> broken, don't fix it. :)
>>
>Okey-dokey, Doc :)!
>
>
>> >
>> >> All recommendations welcome, and let's forego
>> >> the flames for a change.
>> >>
>> >Whoops, did I flame you :)?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> No, not at all. However, I c ouild still use some
>> software recommendations that would accomplish
>> the stuff mentioned above. Something that comes
>> with manuals, preferably.
>>
>Manuals??? Perhaps a 3rd party technical book
>would work better. FWIW, there isn't that many
>settings in consumer versions of backup software.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Thanks, Powell. I will carefully consider and probably follow your
suggestions. I've seen Veritas software being sold on eBay, and will
definitely do some research re. this brand of software.

Also, if either this software or some other that can essentially make a "copy"
of the entire hard drive is available, please let me know. I seem to recall
reading a newspaper article about several different "ghosting" or "imaging" (I
think those were the terms) programs that essentially can make a "copy" of the
entire hard drive, including programs needed to boot up the computer.
Unfortunately, I do not recall the programs being referenced.

Thanks.


Bruce J. Richman

[Bruce J. Richman]

Lionel wrote:


>Bruce J. Richman - > - jeudi 29
>Avril 2004 22:08 wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>Bruce, I will second Powell advice.
>This is something I have done for friends who have a professional use of
>their computer : accounting, drawing, music...
>The backup strategy is :
>- Daily a backup of selected folders on a second HD. In order to keep this
>HD out of a possible virus infection and other Windows crashes this HD is
>running a Linux system. Backup is a simple script and is very quickly done
>at the end of the day.
>- Monthly : standard backup on CD.
>
>Keep in mind that backup must remain a *voluntary* action, take care of the
>"fully automatized" systems... ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

OK. I'll probably start by using rewritable CD's, but I'm sure I'll eventually
add an external hard drive with virus protection added.



Bruce J. Richman

[Arny Krueger]

The first thing to remember is that backup isn't really backup unless the
media you backup to can be easily separated from the computer.

Most catastrophes that befall computers at best, put anything inside the
computer or semi-permanently attached to the computer at risk. Computers get
stolen, infected with viruses, burned, drowned, struck by lightening,
zapped by surges etc. If any of those things happen to your computer, at the
very best, any backup media or device that is inside or semi-permanently
attached to the computer is at risk.

Therefore, any truly effective backup system has to involve putting the data
being backed-up on some kind of computer media or device that can easily,
and is frequently removed from the computer and put someplace else. I
recommend keeping backups at work if the computer is at home, and at home if
the computer is at work. If you totally lose both your home and your place
of work you will probably be in such profound trouble that computer backup
will be very low on your list of priorities. Of course if your data is
really valuable, there are offsite storage services like Iron Mountain, etc.

For a file the size of your Paradox database and some relatively small
number of WP files, the first alternative to investigate is no backup
program all - just copy the files to some backup media you chose, whether
floppy, zip drive, CD-R, DVD-R, removable hard drive, or one of those
keychain-sized flash memory USB devices.

The first problem most people run into while doing backup, is dealing with
files that are larger than the media that you are using. You didn't identify
your operating system, but all varieties of Windows and DOS since DOS 3.0 or
so have included some kind of a program that will break large files up so
they can be spread over several pieces of media. The Backup program that
came with DOS 4 and every subsequent version of Windows has also included
some kind of file compression facility.

Since I mentioned compression, that brings up another ready alternative -
WinZip (shareware) and programs like it. If your Paradox file won't quite
copy to a floppy in one piece, WinZip will compress it by a factor of maybe
3 to 10 and now it will fit in one piece, and maybe several times over.

If your computer has a USB port then two newer kinds of backup device can be
used with it. One type I already mentioned - those relatively inexpensive
USB Flash memory devices about the size of a cigar butt. The other version
of this kind of thing is the USB interface external hard drive. You plug
them in even while the computer is running, the computer identifies them as
storage, and it's like your computer suddenly grew another hard drive. They
are generally capacious enough that most personal collections of computer
files can be fit onto them by means of simple copying. Drag and drop.

If your computer has a CD burner, then the CD burner probably came with some
kind of software that can be used to make CD copies of files that you want
to back up. CDs are relatively large so file compression and file
subdivision often need not even be used with them.

What do I do for backup? I've set up all my word processing, spread sheet,
database and finance programs so that their master files are in subfolders
of a single folder on a certain hard drive. That single folder of subfolders
is large enough that it takes a DVD-R to hold that entire folder, and that's
how I back it up. The folder is shared on my household network, and it is
used for all critical data on all of the computers on the network.

[Arny Krueger]

Lionel wrote:
> Arny Krueger - > - vendredi 30
> Avril 2004 12:20 wrote:
>
>> The first thing to remember is that backup isn't really backup
>> unless the media you backup to can be easily separated from the
>> computer.
>>
>> Most catastrophes that befall computers at best, put anything inside
>> the computer or semi-permanently attached to the computer at risk.
>> Computers get
>> stolen, infected with viruses, burned, drowned, struck by
>> lightening, zapped by surges etc. If any of those things happen to
>> your computer, at the very best, any backup media or device that is
>> inside or semi-permanently attached to the computer is at risk.
>>
>> Therefore, any truly effective backup system has to involve putting
>> the data being backed-up on some kind of computer media or device
>> that can easily, and is frequently removed from the computer and put
>> someplace else. I recommend keeping backups at work if the computer
>> is at home, and at home if the computer is at work. If you totally
>> lose both your home and your place of work you will probably be in
>> such profound trouble that computer backup will be very low on your
>> list of priorities. Of course if your data is really valuable, there
>> are offsite storage services like Iron Mountain, etc.
>>
>> For a file the size of your Paradox database and some relatively
>> small number of WP files, the first alternative to investigate is no
>> backup program all - just copy the files to some backup media you
>> chose, whether floppy, zip drive, CD-R, DVD-R, removable hard drive,
>> or one of those keychain-sized flash memory USB devices.
>>
>> The first problem most people run into while doing backup, is
>> dealing with files that are larger than the media that you are
>> using. You didn't identify your operating system, but all varieties
>> of Windows and DOS since DOS 3.0 or
>> so have included some kind of a program that will break large files
>> up so they can be spread over several pieces of media. The Backup
>> program that came with DOS 4 and every subsequent version of Windows
>> has also included some kind of file compression facility.
>>
>> Since I mentioned compression, that brings up another ready
>> alternative - WinZip (shareware) and programs like it. If your
>> Paradox file won't quite copy to a floppy in one piece, WinZip will
>> compress it by a factor of maybe 3 to 10 and now it will fit in one
>> piece, and maybe several times over.
>>
>> If your computer has a USB port then two newer kinds of backup
>> device can be used with it. One type I already mentioned - those
>> relatively inexpensive USB Flash memory devices about the size of a
>> cigar butt. The other version
>> of this kind of thing is the USB interface external hard drive. You
>> plug them in even while the computer is running, the computer
>> identifies them as storage, and it's like your computer suddenly
>> grew another hard drive. They are generally capacious enough that
>> most personal collections of computer files can be fit onto them by
>> means of simple copying. Drag and drop.
>>
>> If your computer has a CD burner, then the CD burner probably came
>> with some kind of software that can be used to make CD copies of
>> files that you want to back up. CDs are relatively large so file
>> compression and file subdivision often need not even be used with
>> them.
>>
>> What do I do for backup? I've set up all my word processing, spread
>> sheet, database and finance programs so that their master files are
>> in subfolders of a single folder on a certain hard drive. That
>> single folder of subfolders is large enough that it takes a DVD-R to
>> hold that entire folder, and that's how I back it up. The folder is
>> shared on my household network, and it is used for all critical data
>> on all of the computers on the network.
>
> Nothing to add, perfect.

Thank you for the encouragement. I'm sure that a good editor could have a
ball with it. Even I would!

[dave weil]

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:09:05 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>> Nothing to add, perfect.
>
>Thank you for the encouragement. I'm sure that a good editor could have a
>ball with it. Even I would!

Actually it was quite well-written and well-structured.

[Bruce J. Richman]

Arny Krueger wrote:


>The first thing to remember is that backup isn't really backup unless the
>media you backup to can be easily separated from the computer.
>

I fully agree, and for that reason, will eventually opt in all likelihood for
an external hard drive rather than any internal storage device for backups.


>Most catastrophes that befall computers at best, put anything inside the
>computer or semi-permanently attached to the computer at risk. Computers get
>stolen, infected with viruses, burned, drowned, struck by lightening,
>zapped by surges etc. If any of those things happen to your computer, at the
>very best, any backup media or device that is inside or semi-permanently
>attached to the computer is at risk.
>
>Therefore, any truly effective backup system has to involve putting the data
>being backed-up on some kind of computer media or device that can easily,
>and is frequently removed from the computer and put someplace else. I
>recommend keeping backups at work if the computer is at home, and at home if
>the computer is at work. If you totally lose both your home and your place
>of work you will probably be in such profound trouble that computer backup
>will be very low on your list of priorities. Of course if your data is
>really valuable, there are offsite storage services like Iron Mountain, etc.
>
>For a file the size of your Paradox database and some relatively small
>number of WP files, the first alternative to investigate is no backup
>program all - just copy the files to some backup media you chose, whether
>floppy, zip drive, CD-R, DVD-R, removable hard drive, or one of those
>keychain-sized flash memory USB devices.
>
>The first problem most people run into while doing backup, is dealing with
>files that are larger than the media that you are using. You didn't identify
>your operating system, but all varieties of Windows and DOS since DOS 3.0 or
>so have included some kind of a program that will break large files up so
>they can be spread over several pieces of media. The Backup program that
>came with DOS 4 and every subsequent version of Windows has also included
>some kind of file compression facility.
>

My operating system is Windows XP Home Edition. The computer is a Dell
Dimension 8200 with separate drives for floppy disc, CD, and DVD. The computer
did come preloaded with Roxio software for disc copying.

>Since I mentioned compression, that brings up another ready alternative -
>WinZip (shareware) and programs like it. If your Paradox file won't quite
>copy to a floppy in one piece, WinZip will compress it by a factor of maybe
>3 to 10 and now it will fit in one piece, and maybe several times over.
>
>If your computer has a USB port then two newer kinds of backup device can be
>used with it. One type I already mentioned - those relatively inexpensive
>USB Flash memory devices about the size of a cigar butt. The other version
>of this kind of thing is the USB interface external hard drive. You plug
>them in even while the computer is running, the computer identifies them as
>storage, and it's like your computer suddenly grew another hard drive. They
>are generally capacious enough that most personal collections of computer
>files can be fit onto them by means of simple copying. Drag and drop.
>
>If your computer has a CD burner, then the CD burner probably came with some
>kind of software that can be used to make CD copies of files that you want
>to back up. CDs are relatively large so file compression and file
>subdivision often need not even be used with them.
>
>What do I do for backup? I've set up all my word processing, spread sheet,
>database and finance programs so that their master files are in subfolders
>of a single folder on a certain hard drive. That single folder of subfolders
>is large enough that it takes a DVD-R to hold that entire folder, and that's
>how I back it up. The folder is shared on my household network, and it is
>used for all critical data on all of the computers on the network.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thank you for a well-written, comprehensive series of suggestions, Arny.



Bruce J. Richman

[Bruce J. Richman]

Paul Dormer wrote:


>"Bruce J. Richman" emitted :
>
>>Also, if either this software or some other that can essentially make a
>"copy"
>>of the entire hard drive is available, please let me know. I seem to recall
>>reading a newspaper article about several different "ghosting" or "imaging"
>(I
>>think those were the terms) programs that essentially can make a "copy" of
>the
>>entire hard drive, including programs needed to boot up the computer.
>>Unfortunately, I do not recall the programs being referenced.
>
>Bruce, I use a pre-Semantic, 1998 version of Ghost (beta no less!) to
>back up my operating system partition (non-NTFS) after a clean install
>- for quick recovery to a clean position. I then back up all 'user
>data' once a day (not just increments) using Nero. This is a fairly
>simple way of doing things that does require some rebuilding in the
>case of a comprehensive crash (ie. software and updates need
>reinstalling), but OTOH it's good to start afresh every once in a
>while anyhow.
>
>
>
>--
>S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks for the informatin, Paul. I shall carefully research and consider your
suggestions. I've been relatively lucky so far with no computer crashes or
hard drive failures, but I don't wish to tempt fate indefinitely. Therefore I
plan to implement some protective backup procedures in the near future.



Bruce J. Richman

[dave weil]

On 30 Apr 2004 16:58:41 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

>>
>>The first problem most people run into while doing backup, is dealing with
>>files that are larger than the media that you are using. You didn't identify
>>your operating system, but all varieties of Windows and DOS since DOS 3.0 or
>>so have included some kind of a program that will break large files up so
>>they can be spread over several pieces of media. The Backup program that
>>came with DOS 4 and every subsequent version of Windows has also included
>>some kind of file compression facility.
>>
>
>My operating system is Windows XP Home Edition. The computer is a Dell
>Dimension 8200 with separate drives for floppy disc, CD, and DVD. The computer
>did come preloaded with Roxio software for disc copying.

You know, I was just thinking that a 512 mb Compact Flash card might
work well for backups of large and varied files. Anyone think of a
reason that might make it not such a good idea?

One advantage of the cards is that you could actually choose different
sizes for different backup requirements and you could spread your
backups amongst several cards, thus creating a little more security.
For instance, you could use a 64 mb card solely for Paradox, and a 64
mb for WordPerfect. Then, if you have a crash on one card, you
wouldn't lose *all* your data. Plus, it would be easy to back up your
backups by having two sets of cards per backup (one could stay in the
safety deposit box and maybe you only update it every month or every 6
months). It would be pretty cheap and extremely portable as well as
being quite small, which would be an advantage for safety deposit box
storage. Also, obviously it's rewritable. And, as a last resort, there
are now a few self-administered programs that can recover corrupted
data on these cards, although they are usually used for recovering
photos, but I don't see why they wouldn't work on other types of data
(I could be wrong about this though).

I know that musicians are using CF cards to dump music onto them while
on the road.

Workable? It's certainly cheap, although clearly not quite as cheap as
an internal hard drive. I assume that a backup program would recognize
the drive just as handily as it would any other drive, but maybe I'm
mistaken...

[Arny Krueger]

dave weil wrote:
> On 30 Apr 2004 16:58:41 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:
>
>>>
>>> The first problem most people run into while doing backup, is
>>> dealing with files that are larger than the media that you are
>>> using. You didn't identify your operating system, but all varieties
>>> of Windows and DOS since DOS 3.0 or so have included some kind of
>>> a program that will break large files up so they can be spread over
>>> several pieces of media. The Backup program that came with DOS 4
>>> and every subsequent version of Windows has also included some kind
>>> of file compression facility.
>>>
>>
>> My operating system is Windows XP Home Edition. The computer is a
>> Dell Dimension 8200 with separate drives for floppy disc, CD, and
>> DVD. The computer did come preloaded with Roxio software for disc
>> copying.
>
> You know, I was just thinking that a 512 mb Compact Flash card might
> work well for backups of large and varied files. Anyone think of a
> reason that might make it not such a good idea?

Compact Flash media basically requires that a Compact Flash reader be
attached to a desktop computer like Bruce's Dimension 8200.

Not a problem as CF readers are widely sold for very low prices. Of course,
the readers are typically USB devices. Why not just get a USB flash memory
device and save the bother of the reader?

The answer to this depends on whether or not you have some other device
that can use a CF card. Flash memory formats are proliferating so fast that
I despair at the thought of ever buying another device that would use the
two CF cards I own.

The USB flash memory devices are so convenient for moving data around with,
that we ended up with one of those, too. When you're playing sneakernet, its
nice to not have to carry a reader around.

[Bruce J. Richman]

Dave Weil wrote:


>On 30 Apr 2004 16:58:41 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:
>
>>>
>>>The first problem most people run into while doing backup, is dealing with
>>>files that are larger than the media that you are using. You didn't
>identify
>>>your operating system, but all varieties of Windows and DOS since DOS 3.0
>or
>>>so have included some kind of a program that will break large files up so
>>>they can be spread over several pieces of media. The Backup program that
>>>came with DOS 4 and every subsequent version of Windows has also included
>>>some kind of file compression facility.
>>>
>>
>>My operating system is Windows XP Home Edition. The computer is a Dell
>>Dimension 8200 with separate drives for floppy disc, CD, and DVD. The
>computer
>>did come preloaded with Roxio software for disc copying.
>
>You know, I was just thinking that a 512 mb Compact Flash card might
>work well for backups of large and varied files. Anyone think of a
>reason that might make it not such a good idea?
>
>One advantage of the cards is that you could actually choose different
>sizes for different backup requirements and you could spread your
>backups amongst several cards, thus creating a little more security.
>For instance, you could use a 64 mb card solely for Paradox, and a 64
>mb for WordPerfect. Then, if you have a crash on one card, you
>wouldn't lose *all* your data. Plus, it would be easy to back up your
>backups by having two sets of cards per backup (one could stay in the
>safety deposit box and maybe you only update it every month or every 6
>months). It would be pretty cheap and extremely portable as well as
>being quite small, which would be an advantage for safety deposit box
>storage. Also, obviously it's rewritable. And, as a last resort, there
>are now a few self-administered programs that can recover corrupted
>data on these cards, although they are usually used for recovering
>photos, but I don't see why they wouldn't work on other types of data
>(I could be wrong about this though).
>
>I know that musicians are using CF cards to dump music onto them while
>on the road.
>
>Workable? It's certainly cheap, although clearly not quite as cheap as
>an internal hard drive. I assume that a backup program would recognize
>the drive just as handily as it would any other drive, but maybe I'm
>mistaken...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I'm not familiar with Compact Flash cards, but will certainly investigate these
as an option. Thanks, Dave.



Bruce J. Richman

[Powell]

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote


> Also, if either this software or some other that can
> essentially make a "copy" of the entire hard drive
> is available, please let me know.
>
Your XP-Home has a backup program...
start/accessaries/system tools/backup.


> I seem to recall reading a newspaper article about
> several different "ghosting" or "imaging" (I think those
> were the terms) programs that essentially can make
> a "copy" of the entire hard drive, including programs
> needed to boot up the computer.
> Unfortunately, I do not recall the programs being referenced.
>
Norton System Pro has Norton Ghost which has a
host of features. It is also available as a stand alone
program. I have it but have never used it.
http://www.symantec.com/sabu/ghost/ghost_personal/

[Bruce J. Richman]

Powell wrote:


>"Bruce J. Richman" wrote
>
>
>> Also, if either this software or some other that can
>> essentially make a "copy" of the entire hard drive
>> is available, please let me know.
>>
>Your XP-Home has a backup program...
>start/accessaries/system tools/backup.
>

Actually, it does not appear when following the command chain you've described.
Other utiolities such as System Restore and Defragmentation show up, but not
Backup. I read somewhere that the Backup utility is "hidden" somehow in the
the Windows XP program and that a patch might be required to enable it, but I'm
not sure about this.


>
>> I seem to recall reading a newspaper article about
>> several different "ghosting" or "imaging" (I think those
>> were the terms) programs that essentially can make
>> a "copy" of the entire hard drive, including programs
>> needed to boot up the computer.
>> Unfortunately, I do not recall the programs being referenced.
>>
>Norton System Pro has Norton Ghost which has a
>host of features. It is also available as a stand alone
>program. I have it but have never used it.
>http://www.symantec.com/sabu/ghost/ghost_personal/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks for the information. I'll check it out.



Bruce J. Richman

[dave weil]

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 13:38:37 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>dave weil wrote:
>> On 30 Apr 2004 16:58:41 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> The first problem most people run into while doing backup, is
>>>> dealing with files that are larger than the media that you are
>>>> using. You didn't identify your operating system, but all varieties
>>>> of Windows and DOS since DOS 3.0 or so have included some kind of
>>>> a program that will break large files up so they can be spread over
>>>> several pieces of media. The Backup program that came with DOS 4
>>>> and every subsequent version of Windows has also included some kind
>>>> of file compression facility.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My operating system is Windows XP Home Edition. The computer is a
>>> Dell Dimension 8200 with separate drives for floppy disc, CD, and
>>> DVD. The computer did come preloaded with Roxio software for disc
>>> copying.
>>
>> You know, I was just thinking that a 512 mb Compact Flash card might
>> work well for backups of large and varied files. Anyone think of a
>> reason that might make it not such a good idea?
>
>Compact Flash media basically requires that a Compact Flash reader be
>attached to a desktop computer like Bruce's Dimension 8200.

Is this a real problem though? Wouldn't *any* drive have to be
connected in order to do backups? Of course, you could use something
like a remote connection between that computer and another "off-site"
one, but I don't know if that's worth the trouble, plus, you lose the
portability unless you're dumping the data onto a removable drive of
*some sort*. Once you back up the card, you remove it to a remote site
anyway, right?

>Not a problem as CF readers are widely sold for very low prices. Of course,
>the readers are typically USB devices. Why not just get a USB flash memory
>device and save the bother of the reader?

Isn't that just (as my mom used to say) 6 of one, half a dozen of the
other? You wouldn't have to necessarily use CF, but capacity doesn't
become an issue like it does with other formats. Or are you talking
about some sort of device that doesn't use a reader of some sort (even
if it's permanently built in to the desktop or laptop)?

> The answer to this depends on whether or not you have some other device
>that can use a CF card. Flash memory formats are proliferating so fast that
>I despair at the thought of ever buying another device that would use the
>two CF cards I own.

Well, for instance, if you have an Olympus camera, you might want to
use *their* format. That would be logical. You might not want to use
Sony's format because of the 128 mg limit (I think that they've been
working on that though...) It just seemed to me that CF, being very
widely used with cameras, would be the logical choice, especially with
the large capacity that they offer. And the price is pretty reasonable
as well.

>The USB flash memory devices are so convenient for moving data around with,
>that we ended up with one of those, too. When you're playing sneakernet, its
>nice to not have to carry a reader around.

I might be missing something, but don't you *still* need a reader of
some sort?

[dave weil]

On 30 Apr 2004 18:10:32 GMT, (Bruce J. Richman)
wrote:

>
>>"Bruce J. Richman" wrote
>>
>>
>>> Also, if either this software or some other that can
>>> essentially make a "copy" of the entire hard drive
>>> is available, please let me know.
>>>
>>Your XP-Home has a backup program...
>>start/accessaries/system tools/backup.
>>
>
>Actually, it does not appear when following the command chain you've described.
> Other utiolities such as System Restore and Defragmentation show up, but not
>Backup. I read somewhere that the Backup utility is "hidden" somehow in the
>the Windows XP program and that a patch might be required to enable it, but I'm
>not sure about this.

It shows up that way on my XP Professional and I don't remember doing
anything to enable it. Maybe Professional is different than the home
version...

[Arny Krueger]

Bruce J. Richman wrote:
> Powell wrote:
>
>
>> "Bruce J. Richman" wrote
>>
>>
>>> Also, if either this software or some other that can
>>> essentially make a "copy" of the entire hard drive
>>> is available, please let me know.
>>>
>> Your XP-Home has a backup program...
>> start/accessaries/system tools/backup.
>>
>
> Actually, it does not appear when following the command chain you've
> described. Other utiolities such as System Restore and
> Defragmentation show up, but not Backup. I read somewhere that the
> Backup utility is "hidden" somehow in the the Windows XP program and
> that a patch might be required to enable it, but I'm not sure about
> this.

The XP Backup program is not in XP Home, just XP Professional.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/howto/gettingstarted/guide/backup.asp

[Bruce J. Richman]

Dave Weil wrote:


>On 30 Apr 2004 18:10:32 GMT, (Bruce J. Richman)
>wrote:
>
>>
>>>"Bruce J. Richman" wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>> Also, if either this software or some other that can
>>>> essentially make a "copy" of the entire hard drive
>>>> is available, please let me know.
>>>>
>>>Your XP-Home has a backup program...
>>>start/accessaries/system tools/backup.
>>>
>>
>>Actually, it does not appear when following the command chain you've
>described.
>> Other utiolities such as System Restore and Defragmentation show up, but
>not
>>Backup. I read somewhere that the Backup utility is "hidden" somehow in the
>>the Windows XP program and that a patch might be required to enable it, but
>I'm
>>not sure about this.
>
>It shows up that way on my XP Professional and I don't remember doing
>anything to enable it. Maybe Professional is different than the home
>version...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

That could very well be the case.



Bruce J. Richman

[Arny Krueger]

dave weil wrote:
>
>> The USB flash memory devices are so convenient for moving data
>> around with, that we ended up with one of those, too. When you're
>> playing sneakernet, its nice to not have to carry a reader around.

> I might be missing something, but don't you *still* need a reader of
> some sort?

Nope.

Just a USB port. Generic drivers are built into all versions of XP. THAT is
USB Flash memory is so popular. On Win98 machines, you need proprietary
drivers.

Also, some music players, even hard drive-based models, are dual-use. They
will play music or move files. They require no drivers. Many are small
enough to plug directly into the USB port.

[Bruce J. Richman]

Arny Krueger wrote:


>Bruce J. Richman wrote:
>> Powell wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "Bruce J. Richman" wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>> Also, if either this software or some other that can
>>>> essentially make a "copy" of the entire hard drive
>>>> is available, please let me know.
>>>>
>>> Your XP-Home has a backup program...
>>> start/accessaries/system tools/backup.
>>>
>>
>> Actually, it does not appear when following the command chain you've
>> described. Other utiolities such as System Restore and
>> Defragmentation show up, but not Backup. I read somewhere that the
>> Backup utility is "hidden" somehow in the the Windows XP program and
>> that a patch might be required to enable it, but I'm not sure about
>> this.
>
>The XP Backup program is not in XP Home, just XP Professional.
>
>
>http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/howto/gettingstarted/guide/b
ackup.asp
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

That was my suspicion. Thanks for the clarification.






Bruce J. Richman

[dave weil]

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:09:28 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>dave weil wrote:
>>
>>> The USB flash memory devices are so convenient for moving data
>>> around with, that we ended up with one of those, too. When you're
>>> playing sneakernet, its nice to not have to carry a reader around.
>
>> I might be missing something, but don't you *still* need a reader of
>> some sort?
>
>Nope.
>
>Just a USB port. Generic drivers are built into all versions of XP. THAT is
>USB Flash memory is so popular. On Win98 machines, you need proprietary
>drivers.

I get it now. All-in-one (I haven't used any of those new storage
devices). That can certainly be an advantage when you don't have a
card reader handy. The price also seems a little bit better when you
add in the cost of the reader. Still, having a reader and CF cards
already, someone like me would probably be better served staying with
CF. For someone like Bruce, who doesn't seem to have them in place
already, he should look at this alternative.

>Also, some music players, even hard drive-based models, are dual-use. They
>will play music or move files. They require no drivers. Many are small
>enough to plug directly into the USB port.

That's certainly another option along the idea of what we're talking
about.

So, that's two new options worth looking into.

[Bruce J. Richman]

Dave Weil wrote:


>On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:09:28 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>wrote:
>
>>dave weil wrote:
>>>
>>>> The USB flash memory devices are so convenient for moving data
>>>> around with, that we ended up with one of those, too. When you're
>>>> playing sneakernet, its nice to not have to carry a reader around.
>>
>>> I might be missing something, but don't you *still* need a reader of
>>> some sort?
>>
>>Nope.
>>
>>Just a USB port. Generic drivers are built into all versions of XP. THAT is
>>USB Flash memory is so popular. On Win98 machines, you need proprietary
>>drivers.
>
>I get it now. All-in-one (I haven't used any of those new storage
>devices). That can certainly be an advantage when you don't have a
>card reader handy. The price also seems a little bit better when you
>add in the cost of the reader. Still, having a reader and CF cards
>already, someone like me would probably be better served staying with
>CF. For someone like Bruce, who doesn't seem to have them in place
>already, he should look at this alternative.
>
>>Also, some music players, even hard drive-based models, are dual-use. They
>>will play music or move files. They require no drivers. Many are small
>>enough to plug directly into the USB port.
>
>That's certainly another option along the idea of what we're talking
>about.
>
>So, that's two new options worth looking into.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I'm going to carefully investigate all my options. Everybody's suggestions
have been very helpful.



Bruce J. Richman