Manipulating Regions in Sound Forge

[Mike Rivers]

This is, I hope, anyway, too dumb a question to ask in the official
Sound Forge forum (I assume there is one) so I'll ask here. I'm just
playing with it now and trying to do some editing things that I just
expect should work, but can't figure out how to do them. Reading
through the rather large quick start manual, I get the sinking feeling
that maybe I can't do what I'm looking for.

I figured out how to designate a selection as a region. Now I want to
move that region from where it is to somewhere else. An example is if I
want to splice the ending of Take 2 on to Take 1 of a song. I slap it
in approximately where I want it, Then I want to play over the edit and
drag it a little one way or the other to get the timing right. I can't
seem to move anything.

And how to you rearrange the words in a George Bush speech to make it
sound silly? On, never mine. We don't have to do that?

I'm looking for what I consider basic editing functions like what I'd
do with a razor blade on tape. Surely it can do that.

[Julian]

On 21 Aug 2006 08:42:18 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>This is, I hope, anyway, too dumb a question to ask in the official
>Sound Forge forum
....

>I figured out how to designate a selection as a region. Now I want to
>move that region from where it is to somewhere else. An example is if I
>want to splice the ending of Take 2 on to Take 1 of a song. I slap it
>in approximately where I want it, Then I want to play over the edit and
>drag it a little one way or the other to get the timing right. I can't
>seem to move anything.

I can tell you how to slip the 2 elements in Audition, but not sure
how in SF.

>I'm looking for what I consider basic editing functions like what I'd
>do with a razor blade on tape. Surely it can do that.

Slipping back and forth to get the timing perfect is something you
couldn't do on tape without tedious re-cutting and re-splicing. You
can do it nondestructively in Audition and ProTools however. I don't
think you can directly do that in Sound Forge nondestructively.

You might be able to make a playlist of your 2 regions and tweak your
in and out points to accomplish that. I haven't used playlists in SF
but I see it is a menu item.

Julian

[Frank Vuotto]

I just finished a project (a Spanish rosario) that need lots of parts
cut up/moved/duplicated. It didn't take long to give up on doing it in
Sound Forge. I ended up using the audio tracks on my video editor
(premier pro) and that worked just great for cutting things up into
little pieces, rearranging and nudging them (whoda' thunk)

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/


On 21 Aug 2006 08:42:18 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>This is, I hope, anyway, too dumb a question to ask in the official
>Sound Forge forum (I assume there is one) so I'll ask here. I'm just
>playing with it now and trying to do some editing things that I just
>expect should work, but can't figure out how to do them. Reading
>through the rather large quick start manual, I get the sinking feeling
>that maybe I can't do what I'm looking for.
>
>I figured out how to designate a selection as a region. Now I want to
>move that region from where it is to somewhere else. An example is if I
>want to splice the ending of Take 2 on to Take 1 of a song. I slap it
>in approximately where I want it, Then I want to play over the edit and
>drag it a little one way or the other to get the timing right. I can't
>seem to move anything.
>
>And how to you rearrange the words in a George Bush speech to make it
>sound silly? On, never mine. We don't have to do that?
>
>I'm looking for what I consider basic editing functions like what I'd
>do with a razor blade on tape. Surely it can do that.

[Mike Rivers]

Julian wrote:

> I can tell you how to slip the 2 elements in Audition, but not sure
> how in SF.

Hey, I know how to do it in Sequoia and on the Mackie HDR24/96.
Audition isn't on the radar here because it's a multitrack DAW, not a
stereo editor, which is what I want, and for reasons which are
irrelevant I can accept no substitutes.

Thanks for playing, however.

> You might be able to make a playlist of your 2 regions and tweak your
> in and out points to accomplish that. I haven't used playlists in SF
> but I see it is a menu item.

I think that might be possible, but that's far too much trouble.
Dragging to where I want them is much more fun.

[Mike Rivers]

Frank Vuotto wrote:
> I just finished a project (a Spanish rosario) that need lots of parts
> cut up/moved/duplicated. It didn't take long to give up on doing it in
> Sound Forge.

Aw****! I was hoping this would be easy.

I'm beginning to thing that the contemporary definition of "edit" isn't
what I know. A lot of Sound Forge seems to be in support of its
siblings, Acid and CD Architect. The only mention I could find about
adjusting crossfades is in the CD-A manual, though I haven't really dug
into that yet.

[Ethan Winer]

Mike,

I agree with the others that Sound Forge is probably not the best tool for
what you need to do. Sound Forge is a fabulous program! But for what you're
asking I'd do that in Sonar (or Vegas), then simply bounce to a new Wave
file once all the pieces are in place.

--Ethan

[Mike Rivers]

Ethan Winer wrote:

> I agree with the others that Sound Forge is probably not the best tool for
> what you need to do. Sound Forge is a fabulous program! But for what you're
> asking I'd do that in Sonar (or Vegas), then simply bounce to a new Wave
> file once all the pieces are in place.

OK, help me out here. What's it fabulous for? I'm planning to
incorporate the probram into an article, and since they were kind
enough to send me a copy, I want to find a good application for it.
Otherwise, both my friendly Sony PR rep and I will be disappointed. The
concept is tools that you can use to work on your two-track recordings
(for instance, from a flash memory card recorder). It seems to be
pretty good for chopping out the useless parts from a long file, and
that's a good start.

Is it particularly good with processing tools? Or level adjustments
with a volume envelope? I haven't dug into that yet.

[lm]

Hello Mike,

I did'nt try it, but can't you do this in CD Architect which comes with most
of Sound Forge bundles ?

Laurent.

[Frank Vuotto]

On 21 Aug 2006 12:58:20 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>Is it particularly good with processing tools? Or level adjustments
>with a volume envelope? I haven't dug into that yet.

It works for all these but in none does it excel (Wavelab kicks it's
butt for these functions). It is pretty fast tho and about half the
price of Wavelab.

For me it really shines for cleaning up audio in a video file. The
video plays in a resizeable window and the familiar SF tools are fast
for doing the essentials like muting this and that sound, lowering the
volume here and raising it there.

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/

[Mike Rivers]

Frank Vuotto wrote:

> It works for all these but in none does it excel (Wavelab kicks it's
> butt for these functions). It is pretty fast tho and about half the
> price of Wavelab.
>
> For me it really shines for cleaning up audio in a video file.

Well, maybe it's not really what I expected it to be. It looks like CD
Architect might handle moving regions around. It has crossfade
adjustments which SF doesn't seem to have. I haven't spent enough time
with it to see if it really does what I'm looking for. I'm going to
look at Wavelab, too.

Geez, this stuff gets complicated fast. It was so easy to spin the tape
reels until you found where you wanted to cut, made the cut, and put
the piece right where you wanted it. Adjust crossfades? Well, yeah, you
cut at a different angle. Adjust levels? Isn't that what they have
volume controls for? <g>

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> This is, I hope, anyway, too dumb a question to ask in the official
> Sound Forge forum (I assume there is one) so I'll ask here. I'm just
> playing with it now and trying to do some editing things that I just
> expect should work, but can't figure out how to do them. Reading
> through the rather large quick start manual, I get the sinking feeling
> that maybe I can't do what I'm looking for.
>
> I figured out how to designate a selection as a region. Now I want to
> move that region from where it is to somewhere else. An example is if
> I want to splice the ending of Take 2 on to Take 1 of a song. I slap
> it in approximately where I want it, Then I want to play over the
> edit and drag it a little one way or the other to get the timing
> right. I can't seem to move anything.
>
> And how to you rearrange the words in a George Bush speech to make it
> sound silly? On, never mine. We don't have to do that?
>
> I'm looking for what I consider basic editing functions like what I'd
> do with a razor blade on tape. Surely it can do that.

No problem cutting/pasting (simple right-click, menu, or keyboard action) a
defined region, or a highlighted area. The tricky bit which is not how SF
works is freeform dragging the segments around for preview.

For this you really would be better using the bundled CD Architect, or an
'editor' that does work in that way, such as Vegas or Audition. That really
is a NLE/DAW type of function. Audition incorporates both..

geoff

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> Geez, this stuff gets complicated fast. It was so easy to spin the
> tape reels until you found where you wanted to cut, made the cut, and
> put the piece right where you wanted it.

Not if you didn't have the right razorblade !

geoff

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Frank Vuotto wrote:
>> I just finished a project (a Spanish rosario) that need lots of parts
>> cut up/moved/duplicated. It didn't take long to give up on doing it
>> in Sound Forge.
>
> Aw****! I was hoping this would be easy.
>
> I'm beginning to thing that the contemporary definition of "edit"
> isn't what I know. A lot of Sound Forge seems to be in support of its
> siblings, Acid and CD Architect. The only mention I could find about
> adjusting crossfades is in the CD-A manual, though I haven't really
> dug into that yet.

Yep , what you want to do is a step beyond straightforward editing. Try
'slipping' cut segments of tape backwards and forwards, if you want an
analogy !

geoff

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Ethan Winer wrote:
>
>> I agree with the others that Sound Forge is probably not the best
>> tool for what you need to do. Sound Forge is a fabulous program! But
>> for what you're asking I'd do that in Sonar (or Vegas), then simply
>> bounce to a new Wave file once all the pieces are in place.
>
> OK, help me out here. What's it fabulous for? I'm planning to
> incorporate the probram into an article, and since they were kind
> enough to send me a copy, I want to find a good application for it.
> Otherwise, both my friendly Sony PR rep and I will be disappointed.
> The concept is tools that you can use to work on your two-track
> recordings (for instance, from a flash memory card recorder). It
> seems to be pretty good for chopping out the useless parts from a
> long file, and that's a good start.
>
> Is it particularly good with processing tools? Or level adjustments
> with a volume envelope? I haven't dug into that yet.

Yep great. Not good at slipping regions (with preview) though !

geoff

[Julian]

On 21 Aug 2006 10:18:17 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>Audition isn't on the radar here because it's a multitrack DAW, not a
>stereo editor, which is what I want, and for reasons which are
>irrelevant I can accept no substitutes.

Audition is both a stereo editor and a multitrack DAW.

Julian

[RD Jones]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> Well, maybe it's not really what I expected it to be. It looks like CD
> Architect might handle moving regions around. It has crossfade
> adjustments which SF doesn't seem to have. I haven't spent enough time
> with it to see if it really does what I'm looking for. I'm going to
> look at Wavelab, too.

Unfortunately, there is no true "slip" function in SF.

You can slip markers easily, though. After you have
copied the region that you want to paste, make an
initial marker where you want to paste to, then paste
(or paste special -> crossfade,etc). If the pasted section
doesn't sync the way you like:
[undo -> slip marker -> redo paste.]

The various zoom ratios (and the user definable zooms
assignable to the 1 and 2 keypad keys) help when you've
found a comfortable magnification level.

You can also use the jump to marker command (control+
right or left arrow) to jump between markers to help with
slipping markers to the exact edit points for precise syncing
with beats,etc.

> Geez, this stuff gets complicated fast. It was so easy to spin the tape
> reels until you found where you wanted to cut, made the cut, and put
> the piece right where you wanted it. Adjust crossfades? Well, yeah, you
> cut at a different angle.

There's a rather steep initial learning curve, no doubt.
The lack of a visual 'drag and drop' display feature to aid
in aligning (slipping ?) seems to be the drawback in your
example.

> Adjust levels? Isn't that what they have
> volume controls for? <g>

The normalize and volume adjust functions are a bit
more straightforward, but point taken.

rd

[Laurence Payne]

On 21 Aug 2006 15:30:28 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>Well, maybe it's not really what I expected it to be. It looks like CD
>Architect might handle moving regions around. It has crossfade
>adjustments which SF doesn't seem to have. I haven't spent enough time
>with it to see if it really does what I'm looking for. I'm going to
>look at Wavelab, too.

Wavelab has the Audio Montage page which is sort of halfway to a
multitrack mixing environment. Even if you're only cutting up a
single stereo wav, multitrack makes the job much easier, even if you
only use additional tracks as workspace.

[Geoff]

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On 21 Aug 2006 15:30:28 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
> wrote:
>
>> Well, maybe it's not really what I expected it to be. It looks like
>> CD Architect might handle moving regions around. It has crossfade
>> adjustments which SF doesn't seem to have. I haven't spent enough
>> time with it to see if it really does what I'm looking for. I'm
>> going to look at Wavelab, too.
>
> Wavelab has the Audio Montage page which is sort of halfway to a
> multitrack mixing environment. Even if you're only cutting up a
> single stereo wav, multitrack makes the job much easier, even if you
> only use additional tracks as workspace.

A bit like to two timeline option in CD Architect (you have installed CDA
Mike ?) . Infinitely slippable and complex crossfades possible.

geoff

[Laurence Payne]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:24:21 +1200, "Geoff" >
wrote:

>A bit like to two timeline option in CD Architect (you have installed CDA
>Mike ?) . Infinitely slippable and complex crossfades possible.

Yeah. You need to understand that SF sees itself as part of a
software suite. Wavelab is self-contained.

[Mike Rivers]

Julian wrote:
> On 21 Aug 2006 10:18:17 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
> wrote:

> Audition is both a stereo editor and a multitrack DAW.

And that's exactly what I'm not looking for. I don't own an SUV because
I don't want to drive a truck every day. I don't want to use Audition
as a stereo editor because I don't want to load up a DAW every time I
want to edit a program.

If they still sold the original Cool Edit, I'd be on to it.

[Mike Rivers]

Geoff wrote:

> Yep , what you want to do is a step beyond straightforward editing. Try
> 'slipping' cut segments of tape backwards and forwards, if you want an
> analogy !

This is the sort of thing that a computer can do well, so that's why I
want that advantage over a razor blade.

The truth is that when editing with a razor blade and a real tape deck,
I almost never have to move the edit point by a little bit because I
almost always get it in the right place. But with a computer, I'm
always in doubt as to whether I've really found the right place to
paste, and I'm usually a little off and have to make an adjustment in
position. It would be much easier to make that adjustment if I could
just grab the piece that I just spliced in and drag it in the right
direction a bit, listen, and then adjust again if necessary.

I haven't yet found a computer scrub that works like tape, and often on
my projects, there isn't a good visual cue to the splice point. So I
find myself just taking a stab at it. It works acceptably the first
time more often than I'd expect, but that doesn't give me a lot of
confidence.

One of the problems with locating edit points on a computer is that the
scale is constantly changing, but on tape, one inch is always 1/15 of a
second. On the computer screen, one inch can be five minutes or it can
be too many samples to count.

[Mike Rivers]

RD Jones wrote:

> Unfortunately, there is no true "slip" function in SF.
>
> You can slip markers easily, though. After you have
> copied the region that you want to paste, make an
> initial marker where you want to paste to, then paste
> (or paste special -> crossfade,etc). If the pasted section
> doesn't sync the way you like:
> [undo -> slip marker -> redo paste.]

Sounds like you're catching on to what I'm looking for and have some
working experience with Sound Forge. Thanks for the input.

I had thought about using a marker to mark the splice point, and I'll
play around with it. Thing is that you need to mark two things - where
you want to cut the destination and where you want to cut the source.
This means I have to mark, cut, and listen (which, admittedly is
another chance that I don't have if I mark and cut tape) and it just
seems too fiddly. Maybe if I sit down and do it for a couple of hours
it'll make better sense.

I hadn't found the "paste special" but I guess that's where they let
you adjust crossfade time. Does it do a true crossfade - play both
pieces during the crossfade interval? Or does it fade out one pice
before fading in the other, leaving a virtual dropout at the splice
point? That's effective when splicing in silent gaps (a good idea when
you can get away with it) but not always what you want to do.

> The various zoom ratios (and the user definable zooms
> assignable to the 1 and 2 keypad keys) help when you've
> found a comfortable magnification level.

I've been playing with this technology for close to 20 years and I
haven't found a comfortable magnification level (or two) yet. One thing
that I like about Sound Forge (at least it seems to work this way) is
that when you zoom, it shoots the cursor to the center of the screen
and zooms around it. But often I'll go through steps up to greater
magnification and discover that my cursor isn't in the right position,
so I'll re-position it a and then continue zooming in. I thought I saw
something about an option to use the mouse scroll wheel as a continuous
zoom, but I couldn't find it again.

> You can also use the jump to marker command (control+
> right or left arrow) to jump between markers to help with
> slipping markers to the exact edit points for precise syncing
> with beats,etc.

I haven't had occasion to sync with a beat, just to get the new section
to come in at the right time, with nothing left over from the old
section.

> There's a rather steep initial learning curve, no doubt.
> The lack of a visual 'drag and drop' display feature to aid
> in aligning (slipping ?) seems to be the drawback in your
> example.

Yes. What I'd like to do is what I often do when editing tape, and
that's to make rough cuts, putting pieces together with excess
material on both sides of the splice. After I have all the pieces that
I want and have them in the approximate place (so I don't have to go
looking for a bit when my mind is tuned to making the music or talk
work smoothly) I go back and make new splices in the right place,
cutting out the excess. Of course the "markers" are already there in
the form of bits of splicing tape.

I think I could do that with Sound Forge by slapping in the new,
rough-cut pieces and cutting out what they replace, remembering to drop
a marker at each splice so I don't miss tweaking one. Is there a
function that automatically sets a marker at, say, the end of a cut?
That would be handy.

[Mike Rivers]

Laurence Payne wrote:

> Wavelab has the Audio Montage page which is sort of halfway to a
> multitrack mixing environment. Even if you're only cutting up a
> single stereo wav, multitrack makes the job much easier, even if you
> only use additional tracks as workspace.

That's kind of the way I'm trying to use Sound Forge. I open the file I
want to edit on one waveform screen, and the file from where I want to
take replacements in another screen. I could just as soon assemble
things on a third screen, and then save that as the final version.

The thing that makes it a bit difficult on Sound Forge is that, just
like tape, when you paste one segment into another, they aren't treated
as independent objects, but rather, they're instantly glued together.
That's good if you always do the right thing, but not good if you don't
get it right.

Also, I haven't figured out if there's a way to place a copied segment
or region anywhere but at the end of the existing segment. For example,
if my "destination" file ends at 00:10:15, I can't put the cursor at
00:10:17 and paste the new segment there, leaving a 2 second gap. That
would be easy to identify and trim later. But the best I can do is
place a marker in the area that I'll have to tweak.

[Mike Rivers]

Geoff wrote:

> A bit like to two timeline option in CD Architect (you have installed CDA
> Mike ?) . Infinitely slippable and complex crossfades possible.

I saw something like that in the manual (yes, I did install CDA) but I
couldn't figure out how to use it. I got the impression that perhaps
CDA (rather than SF) would actually be the program that I'd want to
use. But I'm twice as lost figuring out how that program works.

William S, if you want to write a manual, talk to Sony. The Sound Forge
and CD Architect manuals, even the quick start guides, are more like
reference manuals - they tell you what you can do, not how to do it.

I wish there was a straightforward tutorial, but I suspect that if
there was, it would be oriented toward projects sufficiently different
from what I'm doing that it wouldn't teach me what I want to know.

[Julian]

On 22 Aug 2006 04:43:59 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>If they still sold the original Cool Edit, I'd be on to it.

In what way is Audition 1.5 any different for your purposes than Cool
Edit, or is it just v 2.0 you object to?

Julian

[Julian]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:54:32 +0100, Laurence Payne
<lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom> wrote:

>Wavelab has the Audio Montage page which is sort of halfway to a
>multitrack mixing environment. Even if you're only cutting up a
>single stereo wav, multitrack makes the job much easier, even if you
>only use additional tracks as workspace.

My point too with Audition 1.5.

Julian

[Julian]

On 22 Aug 2006 05:25:05 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>The Sound Forge
>and CD Architect manuals, even the quick start guides, are more like
>reference manuals - they tell you what you can do, not how to do it.

That is case on many manuals.

>I wish there was a straightforward tutorial, but I suspect that if
>there was, it would be oriented toward projects sufficiently different
>from what I'm doing that it wouldn't teach me what I want to know.

Exactly the problem.

Julian

[Julian]

On 22 Aug 2006 05:21:24 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:


>Also, I haven't figured out if there's a way to place a copied segment
>or region anywhere but at the end of the existing segment. For example,
>if my "destination" file ends at 00:10:15, I can't put the cursor at
>00:10:17 and paste the new segment there, leaving a 2 second gap. That
>would be easy to identify and trim later. But the best I can do is
>place a marker in the area that I'll have to tweak.

Put your cursor where you think you want to go and select
Process/Insert Silence and type in 2 seconds Next time 2 second will
still be the default value so you only need to type in 2 seconds once.

Paste into the middle of the gap.

Julian

[Mike Rivers]

Julian wrote:
> On 22 Aug 2006 04:43:59 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
> wrote:
>
> >If they still sold the original Cool Edit, I'd be on to it.
>
> In what way is Audition 1.5 any different for your purposes than Cool
> Edit, or is it just v 2.0 you object to?

Is Audition 1.5 a two-track only version? I thought that by the time
Adobe bought out Syntrillium, there was only Cool Edit Pro, the
multitrack version.

More important, is 1.5 still available as a new and supported version?
I only see 2.0 on the Adobe web page. I can't write an article about an
obsolete program that can only be obtained from closeout sellers, as
"used." or as a bootleg.

[Frank Stearns]

"Mike Rivers" > writes:


>Laurence Payne wrote:

>> Wavelab has the Audio Montage page which is sort of halfway to a
>> multitrack mixing environment. Even if you're only cutting up a
>> single stereo wav, multitrack makes the job much easier, even if you
>> only use additional tracks as workspace.

>That's kind of the way I'm trying to use Sound Forge. I open the file I
>want to edit on one waveform screen, and the file from where I want to
>take replacements in another screen. I could just as soon assemble
>things on a third screen, and then save that as the final version.

>The thing that makes it a bit difficult on Sound Forge is that, just
>like tape, when you paste one segment into another, they aren't treated
>as independent objects, but rather, they're instantly glued together.
>That's good if you always do the right thing, but not good if you don't
>get it right.

>Also, I haven't figured out if there's a way to place a copied segment
>or region anywhere but at the end of the existing segment. For example,
>if my "destination" file ends at 00:10:15, I can't put the cursor at
>00:10:17 and paste the new segment there, leaving a 2 second gap. That
>would be easy to identify and trim later. But the best I can do is
>place a marker in the area that I'll have to tweak.

SF8d: Insert Silence, 2 seconds at end of current data. Or put some
silence in a new temp audio window and copy and paste chucks of it as you
like.

Though I don't do it, you can supposedly set the undo stack to go "beyond
saves". That is, you can set SF to be able to undo edits already saved in
a file. At the other extreme, you can have all edits be destructive.

Also, in general, don't overlook paste-mix... LOTS of options there.
There's also a cross-fade system as well.

I have many quarrels with Sound Forge, but recently had to get into it
very deeply and was happily surprised that I found everything I needed for
some fairly complex processing and editing (both pre and post mix; yes, I
was using SF as a track pre-processor).

It can be an ungainly beast, but tameable.

Oh, one other overlooked item that can really make your day: check out the
keyboard shortcut remapping feature in the Options section. You can really
make this program sing your tune. :)

Happy slicing and dicing.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio
--

[Frank Stearns]

"Mike Rivers" > writes:

>Geoff wrote:

>> A bit like to two timeline option in CD Architect (you have installed CDA
>> Mike ?) . Infinitely slippable and complex crossfades possible.

>I saw something like that in the manual (yes, I did install CDA) but I
>couldn't figure out how to use it. I got the impression that perhaps
>CDA (rather than SF) would actually be the program that I'd want to
>use. But I'm twice as lost figuring out how that program works.

>William S, if you want to write a manual, talk to Sony. The Sound Forge
>and CD Architect manuals, even the quick start guides, are more like
>reference manuals - they tell you what you can do, not how to do it.

>I wish there was a straightforward tutorial, but I suspect that if
>there was, it would be oriented toward projects sufficiently different
>from what I'm doing that it wouldn't teach me what I want to know.

Both docs could use a few "cook book" type tutorials, to be sure.

One comment on CDA: be very careful about complex "edits" with this
beast. It can look nice and be seemingly responsive then you'll
inadvertantly bump into something and have your careful alignment work
trashed.

CDA is really just a program for assembling final cuts to make a CD; I
personally can't recommend using it for production-level edits inside a
single cut because of the "house of cards" nature of the program. You can
try if that floats your bit, er, boat, but make frequent saves and
snapshot backups of the .cda file if you're trying this.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

--

[Ethan Winer]

Mike,

> OK, help me out here. What's it fabulous for? <

Everyone else already beat me to it. But I'll add this:

> Is it particularly good with processing tools? <

Yes, this is what I use it for. Sonar, and probably most other DAW programs,
are overkill and clunky when all you want to do is destructively edit a mono
or stereo wave file, or other such "mastering" operations.

--Ethan

[Mike Rivers]

Frank Stearns wrote:

> CDA is really just a program for assembling final cuts to make a CD; I
> personally can't recommend using it for production-level edits inside a
> single cut because of the "house of cards" nature of the program.

That's what I thought it was, but that's also where I found references
to dragging chunks around and adjusting crossfades. I made a CD by
loading up a long file, pressing the T (for "track" ) key to mark where
I wanted tracks to change, and followed my nose. But I think that Nero
is easier to use for that. In Nero, after you mark a split point (which
gets turned into a track before you burn the CD) the play cursor is
where you marked the split. You can then play from there and make sure
that your track mark is placed properly. If you want to move it, you
can grab it with the mouse and drage it. In CDA, the cursor is
wherever it is and you have to manually go back to the track marker to
check it. And if you want to move it, I couldn't find a way to drag it,
just remove it and try again.

Maybe the porgram is really better suited for sample and loop editing
and that's why it's popular. I have an old version of Sound Forge XP
that came along with a music assembly program, and I used that for
simple editing for a while. It doesn't look like, at least for that
function, it's progressed much from the Win3.1 days, other than to
accommodate long file names and different file formats. I really had
hoped it would be more than it is, for what I want to do with it, but I
suspect that there are better programs.

But then, aren't there always better programs, depending on what you
want to do, how you want to do it, and who you think you are for
wanting to do something different than everybody else? <g>

[Laurence Payne]

On 22 Aug 2006 05:21:24 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>> Wavelab has the Audio Montage page which is sort of halfway to a
>> multitrack mixing environment. Even if you're only cutting up a
>> single stereo wav, multitrack makes the job much easier, even if you
>> only use additional tracks as workspace.
>
>That's kind of the way I'm trying to use Sound Forge. I open the file I
>want to edit on one waveform screen, and the file from where I want to
>take replacements in another screen. I could just as soon assemble
>things on a third screen, and then save that as the final version.

You could do that VERY easily on three tracks of a multitrack program.
I can't understand why you're so set against using one?

[[email protected]]

Mike,
I've been using SF for a long time. In your "tack on a new ending"
scenario, I usually do this:

Paste your new ending at about where you want it, but a little bit
"past" where you want it. You now have a little too much audio in the
transition - select the little extra snippet. Hit ctr+K to audition
the transition without the selection. A selectable pre-roll is used.
Doesn't sound right? Drag either end of the selection to a new spot
and hit ctr+K again. Sounds good? Hit Delete. Done.

As with all things DAW, I've taken way too much time to explain a 5
second process. Try it a few times. It's pretty slick.

Bill Hamer

[Frank Vuotto]

On 22 Aug 2006 10:24:41 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:


>Maybe the porgram is really better suited for sample and loop editing
>and that's why it's popular. I have an old version of Sound Forge XP
>that came along with a music assembly program, and I used that for
>simple editing for a while. It doesn't look like, at least for that
>function, it's progressed much from the Win3.1 days, other than to
>accommodate long file names and different file formats. I really had
>hoped it would be more than it is, for what I want to do with it, but I
>suspect that there are better programs.
>

At some point it took on some improved non-linear functionality and
became much-much faster deleting samples at the beginning of a long
file but yes, it is pretty much the same program it's always been.

Also, once Vegas went from a multi track audio program to a video
editor, it took on some really nice audio for video editing functions.

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
>
>> A bit like to two timeline option in CD Architect (you have
>> installed CDA Mike ?) . Infinitely slippable and complex crossfades
>> possible.
>
> I saw something like that in the manual (yes, I did install CDA) but I
> couldn't figure out how to use it. I got the impression that perhaps
> CDA (rather than SF) would actually be the program that I'd want to
> use. But I'm twice as lost figuring out how that program works.

You write manulas - do you read them too ?!!! Maybe you are looking too
deeply, as it is just so intuitive and straightforward.

Similar to Wavelab's CD Montage (or whatever).

1 - Enable the second audio layer option (Options | Use Second Audio Layer
..) Or can can do it in the default single audio layer ...

2 a -Open your file from the media pool into the trimmer, select
(hightlight) the approximate (or exact) segments you want, and directly drag
those to either timeline, then do the aligning/fading thing in section 4.

or

2b - Insert your track into the media pool and pop it on the timeline
(right-click command ,or just drag). In the Timeline position cursor at
extremes of segment(s) you want to move, press "S" to split at each point.

3 - there is no 3

4 -Stagger alternating segments (simply click to select and drag, across the
two timelines ('tracks, if you prefer). Note that each segment is really the
whole source file, and the event edges are not hard ( you can pull out to
reveal all preceeding and postceeding (?) audio. )

5 -Fine tune the start/end of each segment by simply dragging the segment
end in/out.

6 -Move each segment around in relation to the others by dragging.

7 -Grab the top corner of the starts and end of each segment to vary the
width and type of fade (right-click for Fade Type).

8 - Save result as a WAV file, or make tracks from the events
(right-click/command, or global command) and burn to CD.

If you like you can put overall effects on the master, or separate effects
on each little audio segment. This makes it a great overall MASTERING
application too, allowing instant preview access across the whole CD.

Only thing is that FX are effectively all running at once, so realtime
preview can get a bit jumpy if a number of CPU hogs used or your PC is
anaemic.


geoff

[Mike Rivers]

Geoff wrote:

> You write manulas - do you read them too ?!!! Maybe you are looking too
> deeply, as it is just so intuitive and straightforward.

Yes, I read manuals, or try to. What I was looking for in the manual
was definitions of the terms. When you say:

> 1 - Enable the second audio layer option (Options | Use Second Audio Layer
> .) Or can can do it in the default single audio layer ...
>
> 2 a -Open your file from the media pool into the trimmer

This is gibberish to me. I couldn't figure out from the manual what the
audo pool is and how to get something in there. And even what I should
try to put in the pools. Second layer? Trimmer? Huh?

I'll go over your post when I have the program open and see if I get
it. Maybe your explanation will make sense with some actual data.

[Mike Rivers]

Laurence Payne wrote:

> You could do that VERY easily on three tracks of a multitrack program.
> I can't understand why you're so set against using one?

Simple. I'm researching for a potential article about two-track
programs. Perhaps I could shorten it and simply say "don't bother
trying to use one when multitrack programs do it better."

Perhaps editing isn't an important function any longer (because they
figure that you'll do that in your multitrack DAW) and the current
programs focus on "mastering" functions. There seem to be plenty of
those available, and they're easy to use and make perfectly good sense.

[Mike Rivers]

wrote:

> I've been using SF for a long time. In your "tack on a new ending"
> scenario, I usually do this:
>
> Paste your new ending at about where you want it, but a little bit
> "past" where you want it. You now have a little too much audio in the
> transition - select the little extra snippet. Hit ctr+K to audition
> the transition without the selection. A selectable pre-roll is used.
> Doesn't sound right? Drag either end of the selection to a new spot
> and hit ctr+K again. Sounds good? Hit Delete. Done.

I'll give it a try. It's a good tip. I think I understand what your're
doing. I guess the Ctrl-K starts playing at the cursor minus preroll
time, and essentially plays the edit as it woud be cut? That could be
pretty handy. I could onlyl think to do the cut, play it, and if I
didn't like it, undo it and try again. I wonder if that's in the
manual? After about three looks thorough the keyboard shortcuts, I
found Ctrl-K.

[Julian]

On 22 Aug 2006 17:51:16 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:


>I'm researching for a potential article about two-track
>programs. Perhaps I could shorten it and simply say "don't bother
>trying to use one when multitrack programs do it better."

OK understand (finally).

Audition has a 2 track window and a multitrack window. Using the 2
track window only and never using the multitrack window is nearly
identical to using SF or all other 2 track editors I have used dating
back to Sound Designer II. I used Cool Edit as a 2 track editor only
for a couple years before I even started to use the multitrack
functions.

It would seem fair to compare the 2 track window of Audition to SF's 2
track editor and anything else 2 track in your article. Just because
Sony makes you use an entirely separate program for multitrack and
Audition integrates multi track and 2 track editing into a single
program seems an arbitrary reason to draw a line between the two.

Julian

[Julian]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:37:49 -0400, wrote:

>Paste your new ending at about where you want it, but a little bit
>"past" where you want it. You now have a little too much audio in the
>transition - select the little extra snippet. Hit ctr+K to audition
>the transition without the selection. A selectable pre-roll is used.
>Doesn't sound right? Drag either end of the selection to a new spot
>and hit ctr+K again. Sounds good? Hit Delete. Done.
>
>As with all things DAW, I've taken way too much time to explain a 5
>second process. Try it a few times. It's pretty slick.

Thanks Bill. That is pretty slick.

Maybe you can explain to me how to zoom around more easily in Sound
Forge. One of the reasons I don't use SF much is I hate the zoom
functions compared to Audition.

In Audition, I enjoy using the buttons for selecting your view. You
can hit buttons for zoom all or section or zoom to the right or left
side of the selection or simply zoom more or less. I find them
intuitive and extremely helpful to get to any point at any resolution
quickly and easily.

Do you have any tips for zooming around faster and more effectively in
SF?

Julian

[Geoff]

Julian wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:37:49 -0400, wrote:
>
>> Paste your new ending at about where you want it, but a little bit
>> "past" where you want it. You now have a little too much audio in the
>> transition - select the little extra snippet. Hit ctr+K to audition
>> the transition without the selection. A selectable pre-roll is used.
>> Doesn't sound right? Drag either end of the selection to a new spot
>> and hit ctr+K again. Sounds good? Hit Delete. Done.
>>
>> As with all things DAW, I've taken way too much time to explain a 5
>> second process. Try it a few times. It's pretty slick.
>
> Thanks Bill. That is pretty slick.
>
> Maybe you can explain to me how to zoom around more easily in Sound
> Forge. One of the reasons I don't use SF much is I hate the zoom
> functions compared to Audition.

Hover over the audio event and spin your mouse wheel. Or grab the zoom +/-
or bar and drag. Hold CTRL and the zoom is vertical (level).

> Do you have any tips for zooming around faster and more effectively in
> SF?

As above. Could it be easier ? ;-)

geoff

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Laurence Payne wrote:
>
>> You could do that VERY easily on three tracks of a multitrack
>> program. I can't understand why you're so set against using one?
>
> Simple. I'm researching for a potential article about two-track
> programs. Perhaps I could shorten it and simply say "don't bother
> trying to use one when multitrack programs do it better."
>
> Perhaps editing isn't an important function any longer (because they
> figure that you'll do that in your multitrack DAW) and the current
> programs focus on "mastering" functions. There seem to be plenty of
> those available, and they're easy to use and make perfectly good
> sense.

The 'problem' is that the term 'editing' has morphed to mean sometimes more
than it used to in some apps.

In the SoSoFo world you do your multitrack stuff in Vegas or Acid. these are
multi-track apps. You can right-click any audio event in the apps and
select "Open in Audio Editor' to do actual waveform editing in SF or your
choice of other 'editor'.

Audition tries to roll it all into one app which suits some people's
workflows, but I find cluttered.

Have you tried the online sample tutorials at Sony .
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/support/trainingvids.asp?prod=soundforge

or ask in the forum how others do what you want
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/default.asp

Also www.digifreq.com has lots of free resources from a dude who writes
books on SF, Sonar, and other apps.

geoff

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
>
>> You write manulas - do you read them too ?!!! Maybe you are looking
>> too deeply, as it is just so intuitive and straightforward.
>
> Yes, I read manuals, or try to. What I was looking for in the manual
> was definitions of the terms. When you say:
>
>> 1 - Enable the second audio layer option (Options | Use Second Audio
>> Layer .) Or can can do it in the default single audio layer ...
>>
>> 2 a -Open your file from the media pool into the trimmer
>
> This is gibberish to me. I couldn't figure out from the manual what
> the audo pool is and how to get something in there. And even what I
> should try to put in the pools. Second layer? Trimmer? Huh?

In the 'basic introduction' section of the manual.


>
> I'll go over your post when I have the program open and see if I get
> it. Maybe your explanation will make sense with some actual data.

That always helps.

geoff

[Julian]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:42:09 +1200, "Geoff" >
wrote:

>Julian wrote:

>> Maybe you can explain to me how to zoom around more easily in Sound
>> Forge. One of the reasons I don't use SF much is I hate the zoom
>> functions compared to Audition.
>
>Hover over the audio event and spin your mouse wheel.

I never though of doing that. It does indeed work.

>Or grab the zoom +/-

OK, just found that too.

>or bar and drag.

I don't know what this means. Please explain.

>As above. Could it be easier ? ;-)


No, if you know how to do it. I barely ever did any editing on SF
because I found it very awkward to find where I wanted to be. Any
other tricks?

Julian

[RD Jones]

Mike,

I'm using an earlier version than you are reviewing but most
of the often used functions I refer to have changed little if any
in the several updates I've gone through. I hope my information
is helpful if not current.

Mike Rivers wrote:

> I had thought about using a marker to mark the splice point, and I'll
> play around with it. Thing is that you need to mark two things - where
> you want to cut the destination and where you want to cut the source.
> This means I have to mark, cut, and listen (which, admittedly is
> another chance that I don't have if I mark and cut tape) and it just
> seems too fiddly. Maybe if I sit down and do it for a couple of hours
> it'll make better sense.

I'm much more liberal with SF's markers than I ever was with
a china marker on tape. Something about getting excess grease
(wax?) on the path or heads. The markers are easily moved or
deleted ( right click -> delete).

> I hadn't found the "paste special" but I guess that's where they let
> you adjust crossfade time. Does it do a true crossfade - play both
> pieces during the crossfade interval? Or does it fade out one pice
> before fading in the other, leaving a virtual dropout at the splice
> point? That's effective when splicing in silent gaps (a good idea when
> you can get away with it) but not always what you want to do.

Edit -> Paste Special -> Crossfade (or Mix) can be done
with any amount of overlap, or not, and can have the source
and destination levels set where you want. It can be quite
seamless if the settings are done properly.

> I've been playing with this technology for close to 20 years and I
> haven't found a comfortable magnification level (or two) yet. One thing
> that I like about Sound Forge (at least it seems to work this way) is
> that when you zoom, it shoots the cursor to the center of the screen
> and zooms around it. But often I'll go through steps up to greater
> magnification and discover that my cursor isn't in the right position,
> so I'll re-position it a and then continue zooming in. I thought I saw
> something about an option to use the mouse scroll wheel as a continuous
> zoom, but I couldn't find it again.

The scroll wheel works, but I prefer the up/down arrow keys.
Also, the "Normal", "Custom 1" and "Custom 2" zoom levels
(ctrl+down arrow, keypad1, and keypad2) levels can be defined
in Options -> Preferences -> Display.

> I haven't had occasion to sync with a beat, just to get the new section
> to come in at the right time, with nothing left over from the old
> section.

The jump to next (or previous) marker shortcut is useful for
setting several markers the same amount of time before a
beat or phrase, making edits easier to 'get right the first time'.

> Yes. What I'd like to do is what I often do when editing tape, and
> that's to make rough cuts, putting pieces together with excess
> material on both sides of the splice. After I have all the pieces that
> I want and have them in the approximate place (so I don't have to go
> looking for a bit when my mind is tuned to making the music or talk
> work smoothly) I go back and make new splices in the right place,
> cutting out the excess. Of course the "markers" are already there in
> the form of bits of splicing tape.
>
> I think I could do that with Sound Forge by slapping in the new,
> rough-cut pieces and cutting out what they replace, remembering to drop
> a marker at each splice so I don't miss tweaking one. Is there a
> function that automatically sets a marker at, say, the end of a cut?
> That would be handy.

Before you select and copy a section that will be pasted
lay the markers at the start and end points first. Then double
click between the markers to select and then copy. The
section and the markers will be copied and the markers will
be pasted along with the audio at the new location.

rd

[Laurence Payne]

On 22 Aug 2006 17:51:16 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>Simple. I'm researching for a potential article about two-track
>programs. Perhaps I could shorten it and simply say "don't bother
>trying to use one when multitrack programs do it better."
>
>Perhaps editing isn't an important function any longer (because they
>figure that you'll do that in your multitrack DAW) and the current
>programs focus on "mastering" functions. There seem to be plenty of
>those available, and they're easy to use and make perfectly good sense.

Pasting between suitably-arranged multiple windows in a stereo editor
is functionally much the same as pasting between tracks in a
multi-track environment. Not as convenient - the multi-track view
keeps everything automatically aligned.

Without trying to be insulting, are you sure you're the right person
to be attempting this review? They're deep programs, and I don't
think they're really your area of expertise.

[Mike Rivers]

RD Jones wrote:

> Edit -> Paste Special -> Crossfade (or Mix) can be done
> with any amount of overlap, or not, and can have the source
> and destination levels set where you want. It can be quite
> seamless if the settings are done properly.

OK, I think I figured it out. What a goofy way of looking at the
problem (not you, Sound Forge). What it looks like is that when you use
Paste Special, you can start your paste wherever you want rather than
just at the end of what you're pasting to, and that the crossfade time
will be the time between where you paste it (the cursor position) and
the end of the pasted-to segment, adjusted by the amount in the "tune"
box. But I still haven't quite sorted it out. Maybe with some
explanation the light bulb will go on, but it hasn't happened yet.

What still seems to be lacking, however, is a way to trim what's
happening under the crossfade. If you're trying to overlap in the
middle of a note, I can't imagine how you'd find that.

[Mike Rivers]

Geoff wrote:

> The 'problem' is that the term 'editing' has morphed to mean sometimes more
> than it used to in some apps.

That's for sure. And Mackie didn't help any when, in Tracktion, they
call what most people would call a "project" or "song" or "multitrack
recording" an "edit."

> In the SoSoFo world you do your multitrack stuff in Vegas or Acid. these are
> multi-track apps. You can right-click any audio event in the apps and
> select "Open in Audio Editor' to do actual waveform editing in SF or your
> choice of other 'editor'.

That's a pretty fair way to integrate it into a multitrack program. But
what I'm looking at is editing already-mixed material, whether it was
mixed from a multitrack DAW, a multitrack recorder, or mixed (or
recorded) straight to stereo. It's the tool you'd use with your new
flash card recorder.

> Have you tried the online sample tutorials at Sony .
> http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/support/trainingvids.asp?prod=soundforge

No. I'll take a look and see if there's an example of straigthforward
editing there.

> or ask in the forum how others do what you want
> http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/default.asp

Well, when I started this thread, I thought it was too dumb a question
to ask in a dedicated user's forum. Apparently it is. <g>

[Mike Rivers]

Laurence Payne wrote:

> Without trying to be insulting, are you sure you're the right person
> to be attempting this review? They're deep programs, and I don't
> think they're really your area of expertise.

I understand what you mean, and no, I'm not insulted. I'm a simple man
and I want a simple, understandable solution to my problem. There are
many programs that can do a lot of difficult stuff, but if they can't
do easy stuff easily, they're not appropriate for the (easy) task. And
we know that some users (like me, at first) will try to see what they
can do without reading the manual.

I don't think I'd have any problem editing an interview with Sound
Forge, or cutting out extraneous material in a live recording. Where it
gets complicated is when you need to get down to the note level. Like
real estate, it's all about location, location, and location.

Speaking of terms, is there a way to make a cut that leaves a hole? The
term "ripple" is pretty common, meaning that when you cut, the hole
closes up, and when you paste in the middle (something which you
apparently have to Paste Special in Sound Forge) everything to the
right of the paste-in point moves over to make room for it.

[Mike Rivers]

Geoff wrote:


> Hover over the audio event and spin your mouse wheel. Or grab the zoom +/-
> or bar and drag. Hold CTRL and the zoom is vertical (level).

The scroll wheel is pretty handy. Thanks for pointing it out. I'm
beginning ot think that it's important to sit down and read the whole
manual, and then hope you remember that you saw something and where you
saw it when you get to one of those "I know I can do this, I just can't
figure out how" moments.

[Mike Rivers]

Julian wrote:

> >Or grab the zoom +/-
> OK, just found that too.

That's a really small target for someone with shaky fingers and bad
eyes. <g>

[Geoff]

Julian wrote:
>>
>> or bar and drag.

Boottom right of the timeline there is a little set of boxes with + and -
for zoom, and a bar betweem them. Same on the vertical axis.

> Any other tricks?

Read the manual and help. Check out the forums and don't be afraid to ask.

Usually the first instinct (in a Windows cut/copy/paste paradigm) is the way
things are done. But they can all be done at least two ways, sometimes
three - check Help on keyboard shortcuts.

geoff

[[email protected]]

>Maybe you can explain to me how to zoom around more easily in Sound
>Forge.


Scroll wheel and +/- have been mentioned. Probably the easiest and
fastest for me is the up/down arrows. Left/right arrows can be used to
move the cursor around, too.

Bill

[[email protected]]

Also, once you zoom to a certain level, dots will appear that cursor
and selections will snap to. These are samples. Doesn't get any more
precise.

Bill

[[email protected]]

On 23 Aug 2006 04:55:57 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>Speaking of terms, is there a way to make a cut that leaves a hole?

Mute?

[Frank Vuotto]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:16:09 -0400, wrote:

>On 23 Aug 2006 04:55:57 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
>wrote:
>
>>Speaking of terms, is there a way to make a cut that leaves a hole?
>
>Mute?

It's anoying that there is no right click or keyboard shortcut for
mute since I use it frequently. Sure I could write a script (in C,
arrrg) but every time I start I get distracted by something more fun
(and that doesn't take much)

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/

[Lorin David Schultz]

Mike Rivers > wrote:
>
> OK, help me out here. What's it fabulous for?



I haven't nailed that down yet either.

I have it on my laptop for occasions when I need to do a really quick
trim and don't want to bother with connecting the mbox and ilok and
headphones. Or to just edit an unimportant mp3 file directly without
having manually re-encode afterwards.

Anything that requires moving "regions" around is better done with Pro
Tools or SAW or FastEdit or...

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

[Geoff]

Lorin David Schultz wrote:
> Mike Rivers > wrote:
>>
>> OK, help me out here. What's it fabulous for?
>
>
>
> I haven't nailed that down yet either.
>
> I have it on my laptop for occasions when I need to do a really quick
> trim and don't want to bother with connecting the mbox and ilok and
> headphones. Or to just edit an unimportant mp3 file directly without
> having manually re-encode afterwards.
>
> Anything that requires moving "regions" around is better done with Pro
> Tools or SAW or FastEdit or...

.... the included CD Architect, or Vegas, or Acid, or Audition, or
Samplitude, or Sequoia, or .....


geoff

[Geoff]

Frank Vuotto wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:16:09 -0400, wrote:
>
>> On 23 Aug 2006 04:55:57 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of terms, is there a way to make a cut that leaves a hole?
>>
>> Mute?
>
> It's anoying that there is no right click or keyboard shortcut for
> mute since I use it frequently. Sure I could write a script (in C,
> arrrg) but every time I start I get distracted by something more fun
> (and that doesn't take much)

I guess if you had Mute as a right-click option, what others should equally
be there. Then you'd have a right-click dialogue miles long.

But what is wrong with highlighting the area you want to mute, and clicking
the Mute icon ?!!!

You have, presumably, configure the Process and Tools toolbars to be visible
? Other wise highlight and whizz down the Process menu to Mute. Couldn't
really be much easier, could it ?

geoff

[Peter A. Stoll]

Frank Vuotto > wrote in
:

> On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:16:09 -0400, wrote:
>
>>On 23 Aug 2006 04:55:57 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Speaking of terms, is there a way to make a cut that leaves a hole?
>>
>>Mute?
>
> It's anoying that there is no right click or keyboard shortcut for
> mute since I use it frequently.
Alt-P followed by M mutes the current selection.

Granted that is one key-pair followed by one single key, but not much of an
obstacle if one uses it frequently.

[RD Jones]

Geoff wrote:

> I guess if you had Mute as a right-click option, what others should equally
> be there. Then you'd have a right-click dialogue miles long.
>
> But what is wrong with highlighting the area you want to mute, and clicking
> the Mute icon ?!!!
>
> You have, presumably, configure the Process and Tools toolbars to be visible
> ? Other wise highlight and whizz down the Process menu to Mute. Couldn't
> really be much easier, could it ?

One of the better features is that you can add or remove quite
a variety of buttons for functions from the process, edit, tools,
etc menus (including Mute) to the toolbars above the display.
Oprtions -> Preferences -> Toolbars -> Customize

There are a few of my more often used functions that aren't
available as toolbar buttons (like paste special/mix) at least
in my version.

Options for right click customization would be nice ...

rd

[Peter A. Stoll]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in news:1156267481.456421.50350
@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> In CDA, the cursor is
> wherever it is and you have to manually go back to the track marker to
> check it. And if you want to move it, I couldn't find a way to drag it,
> just remove it and try again.

There are a few keyboard shortcuts I can actually remember because I use
them so often. In both SF6 and CDA5 holding down the control key (Windows)
and hitting the left arrow key moves the cursor to the immediate preceding
track or index point (CDA) or Region boundary (SF). Right arrow moves to
next, naturally.

As to moving a track edge, assuming your are in "Normal Edit Tool" (as
distinct from "envelope edit tool", if you hover the cursor over a track
edge, you'll see the cursor change to a horizontal bidirectional arrow with
a box. The sticky point which may have blocked you, and may annoy you, is
that you can't move the end of the previous track and the beginning of the
next track simultaneously. You have to move the unblocked one first, then
grab the other and cozy it up. It snaps decently, this is not quite so
tedious as it sounds.

[Mike Rivers]

Geoff wrote:

> But what is wrong with highlighting the area you want to mute, and clicking
> the Mute icon ?!!!
>
> You have, presumably, configure the Process and Tools toolbars to be visible
> ? Other wise highlight and whizz down the Process menu to Mute. Couldn't
> really be much easier, could it ?

This started with half a thought. I was asking about cutting out a
segment and leaving a hole into which I could stick something else. A
mute isn't really a hole, but I suppose that if I used Paste Special
with the minimum crossfade time, and pasted it in there, it would be
like crossfading or mixing the newly pasted piece with silence. Yup,
that works, but it seems kind of roundabout.

[Laurence Payne]

On 23 Aug 2006 15:53:31 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>This started with half a thought. I was asking about cutting out a
>segment and leaving a hole into which I could stick something else. A
>mute isn't really a hole, but I suppose that if I used Paste Special
>with the minimum crossfade time, and pasted it in there, it would be
>like crossfading or mixing the newly pasted piece with silence. Yup,
>that works, but it seems kind of roundabout.

To my mind, Mute ought to be reversible. WaveLab just calls it
Silence.

One point about Soundforge is that it's apparently unusually friendly
to blind users, through good integration with one of the "talking
screen" programs. I don't know how big the blind user community is,
but it's quite vocal on the SF mail list.

[Mike Rivers]

Laurence Payne wrote:

> To my mind, Mute ought to be reversible. WaveLab just calls it
> Silence.

I suppose you could do a volume change on the selection and set it
essentially to silence. But I wonder if you can bring it back again . .
.. . um, nope.

> One point about Soundforge is that it's apparently unusually friendly
> to blind users, through good integration with one of the "talking
> screen" programs. I don't know how big the blind user community is,
> but it's quite vocal on the SF mail list.

Interesting. All the keyboard shortcuts probalby help.

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
>
>> But what is wrong with highlighting the area you want to mute, and
>> clicking the Mute icon ?!!!
>>
>> You have, presumably, configure the Process and Tools toolbars to be
>> visible ? Other wise highlight and whizz down the Process menu to
>> Mute. Couldn't really be much easier, could it ?
>
> This started with half a thought. I was asking about cutting out a
> segment and leaving a hole into which I could stick something else. A
> mute isn't really a hole, but I suppose that if I used Paste Special
> with the minimum crossfade time, and pasted it in there, it would be
> like crossfading or mixing the newly pasted piece with silence. Yup,
> that works, but it seems kind of roundabout.

The problem is that you can't have a 'hole'.

geoff

[Steve Maki]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:45:19 -0400, wrote:

>Also, once you zoom to a certain level, dots will appear that cursor
>and selections will snap to. These are samples. Doesn't get any more
>precise.
>
>Bill

Yes, and at that level, you can use the pencil tool to redraw glitches.

It's cool.

Steve Maki

[Julian]

On 23 Aug 2006 05:24:32 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>
>Julian wrote:
>
>> >Or grab the zoom +/-
>> OK, just found that too.
>
>That's a really small target for someone with shaky fingers and bad
>eyes. <g>

yes. It's such a tiny icon!

Thanks to whoever mentioned the tip about using the scroll wheel for
zooming. To my surprise it also works the same way in Audition and
probably other programs too. I never needed to use that feature in
Audition because I found the zoom buttons so easy, there was no point.
Now I know it's there, I'll no doubt start using it.

It's sort of like the space bar being the start / stop control. Once
you learn to do that in one program you find others. It's gotten to
the point where I get annoyed if I find a program that doesn't use the
space bar to start playback!

Julian

[Michael Putrino]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Geoff wrote:
>
>
>> Hover over the audio event and spin your mouse wheel. Or grab the zoom
>> +/-
>> or bar and drag. Hold CTRL and the zoom is vertical (level).
>
> The scroll wheel is pretty handy. Thanks for pointing it out. I'm
> beginning ot think that it's important to sit down and read the whole
> manual, and then hope you remember that you saw something and where you
> saw it when you get to one of those "I know I can do this, I just can't
> figure out how" moments.
>

Hooooraaaayyyyy! Always read the manuals for your tools.

Mike

[Mike Rivers]

Michael Putrino wrote:

> Hooooraaaayyyyy! Always read the manuals for your tools.

With a program like this, there are certain things which just SHOULD be
intuitive and shouldn't require the manual. But apparently in this
case, not too many.

[Laurence Payne]

>With a program like this, there are certain things which just SHOULD be
>intuitive and shouldn't require the manual. But apparently in this
>case, not too many.

C'mon! You write manuals. You know perfectly well that "intuitive"
is a very slippery concept.

[Mike Rivers]

Laurence Payne wrote:

> C'mon! You write manuals. You know perfectly well that "intuitive"
> is a very slippery concept.

Maybe I should design software instead. Then I wouldn't have to write
manuals. ;)

[Laurence Payne]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:01:35 -0500, flatfish+++
> wrote:

>
>Ever try using Logic Audio?
>If you think you are having nightmares now, you ain't seen nothing yet.
>However,, in the hands of a skilled person, Logic is super powerful.
>It's just not easy to learn.

Ever tried playing a musical instrument? There isn't a computer
program in the world that isn't several orders of magnitude easier to
learn. There are plenty of toy programs for users who want instant
gratification.

[Mike Rivers]

Laurence Payne wrote:

> Ever tried playing a musical instrument? There isn't a computer
> program in the world that isn't several orders of magnitude easier to
> learn.

That's a different sort of thing. Even you could learn to play a melody
on a banjo in two minutes, and you wouldn't even need the Mel Bay How
To Play The Banjo book. But if you want to play like Earl, the book is
just a start - you need to practice for about ten years.

> There are plenty of toy programs for users who want instant gratification.

There are also plenty of serious programs for users who want instant
gratification, if they're easily gratified.

[Michael Putrino]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Michael Putrino wrote:
>
>> Hooooraaaayyyyy! Always read the manuals for your tools.
>
> With a program like this, there are certain things which just SHOULD be
> intuitive and shouldn't require the manual. But apparently in this
> case, not too many.
>

Well...they were intuitive to me...

[Mike Rivers]

Michael Putrino wrote:

> > With a program like this, there are certain things which just SHOULD be
> > intuitive

> Well...they were intuitive to me...

Then how come you can't split a file into regions and then then move
them where you want them by dragging? That's intuitive to me.

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Michael Putrino wrote:
>
>>> With a program like this, there are certain things which just
>>> SHOULD be intuitive
>
>> Well...they were intuitive to me...
>
> Then how come you can't split a file into regions and then then move
> them where you want them by dragging? That's intuitive to me.

You can. Different tool though.

geoff

[Geoff]

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:01:35 -0500, flatfish+++
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Ever try using Logic Audio?
>> If you think you are having nightmares now, you ain't seen nothing
>> yet. However,, in the hands of a skilled person, Logic is super
>> powerful. It's just not easy to learn.
>
> Ever tried playing a musical instrument? There isn't a computer
> program in the world that isn't several orders of magnitude easier to
> learn. There are plenty of toy programs for users who want instant
> gratification.

I find the Germanic applications generally incredibly powerful, but
unfathomable to learn. Must be a way of thinking.


geoff

[Steve Maki]

On 25 Aug 2006 15:34:07 -0700, "Mike Rivers" > wrote:

>Then how come you can't split a file into regions and then then move
>them where you want them by dragging? That's intuitive to me.

To me, that capability implies a *timeline* based program, something
which two track editors traditionally are not. If I want to drag a
region, I want to do it on another track, so that I'm sure I'm not
messing up what's on the other tracks. Voila! A multitrack DAW.

Seems intuitive to me.

Steve Maki

[Mike Rivers]

Geoff wrote:

> > Then how come you can't split a file into regions and then then move
> > them where you want them by dragging? That's intuitive to me.
>
> You can. Different tool though.

In Sound Forge? Please explain how. That's just what I want to know.
(remember my original question?)

Or is a different "tool" a different program?

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
>
>>> Then how come you can't split a file into regions and then then move
>>> them where you want them by dragging? That's intuitive to me.
>>
>> You can. Different tool though.
>
> In Sound Forge? Please explain how. That's just what I want to know.
> (remember my original question?)
>
> Or is a different "tool" a different program?

Different program. CDA is a good place to start, seeing you have it ! it
is also the best CD compilation application bar none. PC or Mac. And for
mastering too, IMO.

geoff

[Mike Rivers]

Geoff wrote:

> Different program. CDA is a good place to start, seeing you have it ! it
> is also the best CD compilation application bar none. PC or Mac. And for
> mastering too, IMO.

Oh. Well, that isn''t that I asked about, is it?

But while you're at it, can you explain the crossfading in Sound
Forge's Paste Special function? I've read through the printed manual
and done as much searching as I could in the PDF "full" manual and I
still can't figure out what the controls do. But I sure don't get what
I expect when I use it.

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
>
>> Different program. CDA is a good place to start, seeing you have it
>> ! it is also the best CD compilation application bar none. PC or
>> Mac. And for mastering too, IMO.
>
> Oh. Well, that isn''t that I asked about, is it?
>
> But while you're at it, can you explain the crossfading in Sound
> Forge's Paste Special function? I've read through the printed manual
> and done as much searching as I could in the PDF "full" manual and I
> still can't figure out what the controls do. But I sure don't get what
> I expect when I use it.

Either your reading comprehension is on the decline ( I know mine is...), or
you should write their manuals for them !

geoff

[RD Jones]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
>
> > Different program. CDA is a good place to start, seeing you have it ! it
> > is also the best CD compilation application bar none. PC or Mac. And for
> > mastering too, IMO.
>
> Oh. Well, that isn''t that I asked about, is it?
>
> But while you're at it, can you explain the crossfading in Sound
> Forge's Paste Special function? I've read through the printed manual
> and done as much searching as I could in the PDF "full" manual and I
> still can't figure out what the controls do. But I sure don't get what
> I expect when I use it.

The drag-and-drop seeem to have a much better functionality
when dragging from one window to another, rather than within
a single window.

When dragging a selection from one window to another the
Ctrl, and Alt key will toggle the Mix, Paste and Crossfade
functions respectively (C,M,P). Placing markers at the start
and end points in the source selection helps here. If "Auto
Snap" is enabled dropping the selection in the destination
can be done precisely. You can auto-snap to a marker or
the end of an existing block of data in a window. Markers
are your friend. I always put markers in the source and drag
them over. It's much easier to delete a marker afterward
than to figure out where one could have been useful when it
wasn't placed.

As far as getting the crossfade and mix settings to work
for you, I guess this is part of the learning curve. To be
honest it still takes me a few tries to get the proper mix
or crossfade overlap even with my time using the program.

rd

[Michael Putrino]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Geoff wrote:
>
>> > Then how come you can't split a file into regions and then then move
>> > them where you want them by dragging? That's intuitive to me.
>>
>> You can. Different tool though.
>
> In Sound Forge? Please explain how. That's just what I want to know.
> (remember my original question?)
>
> Or is a different "tool" a different program?
>

Well, Sound Forge is not the editor; CD Architect is. If you want to edit as
you did with tape and a razor blade, then use CD Architect. That's what it's
intended for. You can create all the "clips" that you want and drag them to
your hearts content, overlapping them in any fashion you want. And since
each clip is in fact an "exposed section" of the whole original song file,
you can expose more or less of each clip by dragging the clip's boundaries
to the left or right as needed.

And CD Architect also allows you to have a second parallel stereo track if
you really need to do very complex overlaps and crossfades using the volume
envelopes separately in each "stereo track".

I can't help you if you want to Sound Forge to do what was intended in CD
Architect.

Mike

[Mike Rivers]

Michael Putrino wrote:

> Well, Sound Forge is not the editor; CD Architect is. If you want to edit as
> you did with tape and a razor blade, then use CD Architect. That's what it's
> intended for. You can create all the "clips" that you want and drag them to
> your hearts content, overlapping them in any fashion you want. And since
> each clip is in fact an "exposed section" of the whole original song file,
> you can expose more or less of each clip by dragging the clip's boundaries
> to the left or right as needed.

You're right on cue. I spent the morning playing with CD Architect and
sort of figured that out.

> And CD Architect also allows you to have a second parallel stereo track if
> you really need to do very complex overlaps and crossfades using the volume
> envelopes separately in each "stereo track".

Is that what they call the "second audio layer?" I haven't tried it
yet.
I found the vocabulary to be very confusing, so I may not be doing
things right, or at least not in the best way.

I put a concert recording (1 long file) into the Media Pool, then
opened the "Trimmer" window (that sounded intuitive) and selected
chunks to put on the time line. I was able to drag them around and
crossfade like I expected. But one thing I didn't get - maybe you can
explain it. I could select a segment, for example, a relatively
incoherent introduction, and click on "open for editing" or whatever it
says. I had set up Sound Forge to be the editor, and when I did that, I
expected to find my selection in Sound Forge, but instead, I found the
whole hour-long file. What the heck good is that? I have to find my
place again. I selected what I wanted to edit, now let me edit it!

[Michael Putrino]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Michael Putrino wrote:
>
>> Well, Sound Forge is not the editor; CD Architect is. If you want to edit
>> as
>> you did with tape and a razor blade, then use CD Architect. That's what
>> it's
>> intended for. You can create all the "clips" that you want and drag them
>> to
>> your hearts content, overlapping them in any fashion you want. And since
>> each clip is in fact an "exposed section" of the whole original song
>> file,
>> you can expose more or less of each clip by dragging the clip's
>> boundaries
>> to the left or right as needed.
>
> You're right on cue. I spent the morning playing with CD Architect and
> sort of figured that out.
>
>> And CD Architect also allows you to have a second parallel stereo track
>> if
>> you really need to do very complex overlaps and crossfades using the
>> volume
>> envelopes separately in each "stereo track".
>
> Is that what they call the "second audio layer?" I haven't tried it
> yet.
> I found the vocabulary to be very confusing, so I may not be doing
> things right, or at least not in the best way.
>
> I put a concert recording (1 long file) into the Media Pool, then
> opened the "Trimmer" window (that sounded intuitive) and selected
> chunks to put on the time line. I was able to drag them around and
> crossfade like I expected. But one thing I didn't get - maybe you can
> explain it. I could select a segment, for example, a relatively
> incoherent introduction, and click on "open for editing" or whatever it
> says. I had set up Sound Forge to be the editor, and when I did that, I
> expected to find my selection in Sound Forge, but instead, I found the
> whole hour-long file. What the heck good is that? I have to find my
> place again. I selected what I wanted to edit, now let me edit it!
>

By the way, I don't use the "Trimmer" window. Seems a waste of time to me. I
just drag another copy of the song to the timeline and move the edges to
suite the section I'm after. The trimmer seems only good if you will be
re-using a clip multiple times. I don't do that too often. In fact, I don't
think I've ever done it.

And yes, since the "clip" is really the whole song in disguise, the editor
doesn't know anything about the trimmed sections. So be careful, if you edit
the song, you will be editing every clip in the timeline since the piecing
together in CD Architect is non-destructive and your just working with one
song file.

I'm not sure if you can add markers and if they are preserved when moving to
Sound Forge. Try it. I don't use Sound Forge, so I can't...or I would.

Mike

[Julian]

On 28 Aug 2006 13:26:39 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>You're right on cue. I spent the morning playing with CD Architect and
>sort of figured that out.

Just like Audition, you have to go to the other program to do the drag
and drop.

Julian

[Mike Rivers]

Michael Putrino wrote:

> I don't use the "Trimmer" window. Seems a waste of time to me. I
> just drag another copy of the song to the timeline and move the edges to
> suite the section I'm after.

See? I never thought of that. The sense that I got from the manual was
that the process was to mark what you wanted in the Trimmer window and
then Add it to the time line. "Trimmer" seems to be such an inviting
term - like, this is where you can (ahem) trim your selections, just
like an editor (which it ain't). I'd be more forgiving of the
documentation and screen nomenclatureif this program didn't come from
an English-speaking country. ;)

However, the Trimmer window is the only place I've figured out where to
put the source file other than right on the CD timeline. You gotta
display it somewhere so you know what you're cutting up. The Fast Edit
paradigm is to open the source in one window, then cut and paste into
the destination window, where you can do all your editing.

> And yes, since the "clip" is really the whole song in disguise, the editor
> doesn't know anything about the trimmed sections. So be careful, if you edit
> the song, you will be editing every clip in the timeline since the piecing
> together in CD Architect is non-destructive and your just working with one
> song file.

So that sounds like something you can't really do. Often it makes more
sense to do cuts in the audio file than to diddle with what's
essentially a graphic representation of an edit list.

> I'm not sure if you can add markers and if they are preserved when moving to
> Sound Forge. Try it. I don't use Sound Forge, so I can't...or I would.

I thought about that, but the markers that I placed in CDA didn't carry
over to SF when I opened the file in the editor.

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
>
> Is that what they call the "second audio layer?" I haven't tried it
> yet.
> I found the vocabulary to be very confusing, so I may not be doing
> things right, or at least not in the best way.

Puts up a second timeline 'track'. Events on that can be moved around
exactly as on the first, and have their own fades applied that can be any of
the available shapes .

Both timelines are mixed when you burn on-the-fly, or render/save as wav.
This can be a whole CD worth, one 'track' for later inclusion into a
compilation, or just a little snippet.


geoff

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>
> However, the Trimmer window is the only place I've figured out where
> to put the source file other than right on the CD timeline. You gotta
> display it somewhere so you know what you're cutting up.

On the timeline is as goos as anywhere to do the displaying, previewing,
slitting, and 'trimming'. I find the trimmer supurluous to the way I work
too.

> So that sounds like something you can't really do. Often it makes more
> sense to do cuts in the audio file than to diddle with what's
> essentially a graphic representation of an edit list.

Yep. Much easier to move, adjust, visualise, and preview than an edit list
though !

geoff

[Michael Putrino]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Michael Putrino wrote:
>
>> I don't use the "Trimmer" window. Seems a waste of time to me. I
>> just drag another copy of the song to the timeline and move the edges to
>> suite the section I'm after.
>
> See? I never thought of that. The sense that I got from the manual was
> that the process was to mark what you wanted in the Trimmer window and
> then Add it to the time line. "Trimmer" seems to be such an inviting
> term - like, this is where you can (ahem) trim your selections, just
> like an editor (which it ain't). I'd be more forgiving of the
> documentation and screen nomenclatureif this program didn't come from
> an English-speaking country. ;)

The trimmer window seems only useful to me when you want to use a clip
multiple times. You make the clip in the trimmer window and drag it to the
timeline muleiple times. But if you're only using a clip once in the
timeline, it's faster just to do it in the timeline and avoid using the
trimmer altogether.

>
> However, the Trimmer window is the only place I've figured out where to
> put the source file other than right on the CD timeline. You gotta
> display it somewhere so you know what you're cutting up. The Fast Edit
> paradigm is to open the source in one window, then cut and paste into
> the destination window, where you can do all your editing.

Just right-click-drag a copy of the file from the "media" window to the
timeline. This will place it on the timeline without a track marker. Or
left-click-drag if you want the track marker. You can drag-copy it as many
times as you want, to create as many clips as your heart desires. you don't
need the trimmer window for htis.

By the way, use the "track" list window to name your tracks (change them
from the file name to the song title). You probably already knew this, but,
just in case...

>
>> And yes, since the "clip" is really the whole song in disguise, the
>> editor
>> doesn't know anything about the trimmed sections. So be careful, if you
>> edit
>> the song, you will be editing every clip in the timeline since the
>> piecing
>> together in CD Architect is non-destructive and your just working with
>> one
>> song file.
>
> So that sounds like something you can't really do. Often it makes more
> sense to do cuts in the audio file than to diddle with what's
> essentially a graphic representation of an edit list.
>

Well, if you really need to edit a clipped portion of the song file, just
edit the song (whole or partial) in the editor and save it as a new file.
Import that to the media window in CD Architect and use it as you want.

>> I'm not sure if you can add markers and if they are preserved when moving
>> to
>> Sound Forge. Try it. I don't use Sound Forge, so I can't...or I would.
>
> I thought about that, but the markers that I placed in CDA didn't carry
> over to SF when I opened the file in the editor.
>

That seems like a flaw that should be fixed by Sony. The programs should
recognize each others markers.

Mike

[Mike Rivers]

Michael Putrino wrote:

> The trimmer window seems only useful to me when you want to use a clip
> multiple times. You make the clip in the trimmer window and drag it to the
> timeline muleiple times. But if you're only using a clip once in the
> timeline, it's faster just to do it in the timeline and avoid using the
> trimmer altogether.

I guess I just don't get it and somebody will have to show me how this
works. I thought that the "Timeline" was where you put all the clips
that you wanted to have in your CD project. This is directly related
(as it worked for me) with the CD Layout Bar.

If I have one file in the Media window, I can drag it to the time line,
but then how do I work with it there, dividing it up into sections that
I can manipulate? I can't figure out how to select anything but the
entire file. Maybe you're thinking that the hour-long recording has
already been split up into individual chunks. It hasn't (until I do
it). That's what I was doing in the Trimmer window.

> Just right-click-drag a copy of the file from the "media" window to the
> timeline. This will place it on the timeline without a track marker. Or
> left-click-drag if you want the track marker. You can drag-copy it as many
> times as you want, to create as many clips as your heart desires. you don't
> need the trimmer window for htis.

Oh, so you mean I should work with the whole file for each track on the
CD, dragging the ends to get the working segment that I want? OK, I was
able to do that, but it seems to be an inefficient way of working,
essentially to have to re-open the entire file every time I want to use
a piece of it. That kind of defeats the "clip" paradigm.

> By the way, use the "track" list window to name your tracks (change them
> from the file name to the song title). You probably already knew this, but,
> just in case...

Yes, I figured that out.

> Well, if you really need to edit a clipped portion of the song file, just
> edit the song (whole or partial) in the editor and save it as a new file.
> Import that to the media window in CD Architect and use it as you want.

Sure, but that means going back to square one. But if all I want to do
is move the start and end points, which is mostly all I want to do, I
guess I don't need the editor for that. So many tools, so little brain
capacity.

[Michael Putrino]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Michael Putrino wrote:
>
>> The trimmer window seems only useful to me when you want to use a clip
>> multiple times. You make the clip in the trimmer window and drag it to
>> the
>> timeline muleiple times. But if you're only using a clip once in the
>> timeline, it's faster just to do it in the timeline and avoid using the
>> trimmer altogether.
>
> I guess I just don't get it and somebody will have to show me how this
> works. I thought that the "Timeline" was where you put all the clips
> that you wanted to have in your CD project. This is directly related
> (as it worked for me) with the CD Layout Bar.
>
> If I have one file in the Media window, I can drag it to the time line,
> but then how do I work with it there, dividing it up into sections that
> I can manipulate? I can't figure out how to select anything but the
> entire file. Maybe you're thinking that the hour-long recording has
> already been split up into individual chunks. It hasn't (until I do
> it). That's what I was doing in the Trimmer window.
>
>> Just right-click-drag a copy of the file from the "media" window to the
>> timeline. This will place it on the timeline without a track marker. Or
>> left-click-drag if you want the track marker. You can drag-copy it as
>> many
>> times as you want, to create as many clips as your heart desires. you
>> don't
>> need the trimmer window for htis.
>
> Oh, so you mean I should work with the whole file for each track on the
> CD, dragging the ends to get the working segment that I want? OK, I was
> able to do that, but it seems to be an inefficient way of working,
> essentially to have to re-open the entire file every time I want to use
> a piece of it. That kind of defeats the "clip" paradigm.
>

Well isn't that what you do in the trimmer window? What's the difference if
you do it in the trimmer window or on the timeline? In both instances, you
are creating a "clip" from the whole song file. Do it wherever it seems
easier for you.

>> By the way, use the "track" list window to name your tracks (change them
>> from the file name to the song title). You probably already knew this,
>> but,
>> just in case...
>
> Yes, I figured that out.
>
>> Well, if you really need to edit a clipped portion of the song file, just
>> edit the song (whole or partial) in the editor and save it as a new file.
>> Import that to the media window in CD Architect and use it as you want.
>
> Sure, but that means going back to square one. But if all I want to do
> is move the start and end points, which is mostly all I want to do, I
> guess I don't need the editor for that. So many tools, so little brain
> capacity.
>

[Mike Rivers]

Michael Putrino wrote:

> Well isn't that what you do in the trimmer window? What's the difference if
> you do it in the trimmer window or on the timeline? In both instances, you
> are creating a "clip" from the whole song file. Do it wherever it seems
> easier for you.

You accomplish the same thing, but you do it in what's to me a very
significantly different manner. When using the Trimmer window, the
whole file is always visible and you never take anything out of it. Or
at least I don't. I mark the portion I want to use, then use the "A"
keyboard shortcut ("Add the selection to the Timeline") to put it up
where I'm going to use it. Then I mark another selection in the Trimmer
window, and pop that up on to the time line. Then I can go up to the
Timeline and do further trimming and manipulation when working on a
piece that's already approximately the correct length.

Doing it your way, I'm shortening the large file for every clip that I
want on the Timeline, and then having to replace the large file by
dragging it up there again, only to shorten it again, only differently.
That doesn't make nearly as much sense to me as having the source stay
put and just move portions of it into the area where I'll do the final
tweaking.

[Michael Putrino]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Michael Putrino wrote:
>
>> Well isn't that what you do in the trimmer window? What's the difference
>> if
>> you do it in the trimmer window or on the timeline? In both instances,
>> you
>> are creating a "clip" from the whole song file. Do it wherever it seems
>> easier for you.
>
> You accomplish the same thing, but you do it in what's to me a very
> significantly different manner. When using the Trimmer window, the
> whole file is always visible and you never take anything out of it. Or
> at least I don't. I mark the portion I want to use, then use the "A"
> keyboard shortcut ("Add the selection to the Timeline") to put it up
> where I'm going to use it. Then I mark another selection in the Trimmer
> window, and pop that up on to the time line. Then I can go up to the
> Timeline and do further trimming and manipulation when working on a
> piece that's already approximately the correct length.
>
> Doing it your way, I'm shortening the large file for every clip that I
> want on the Timeline, and then having to replace the large file by
> dragging it up there again, only to shorten it again, only differently.
> That doesn't make nearly as much sense to me as having the source stay
> put and just move portions of it into the area where I'll do the final
> tweaking.
>

Well...you taught me something ;-)

I also like your method better now. I was doing the same thing in the
trimmer that I was doing in the timeline. Go figure. I guess my reading
comprehension isn't as good as it use to be... ;-)

Thanks,
Mike

[[email protected]]

On 29 Aug 2006 10:18:28 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>If I have one file in the Media window, I can drag it to the time line,
>but then how do I work with it there, dividing it up into sections that
>I can manipulate? I can't figure out how to select anything but the
>entire file. Maybe you're thinking that the hour-long recording has
>already been split up into individual chunks. It hasn't (until I do
>it). That's what I was doing in the Trimmer window.


Drag the whole file to the time line. Let's say it's 2 songs. Cursor
between 2 songs. Hitting "S" splits the file. Now the ends can be
adjusted however you want (if you want). Double click song 1. Hit "T"
- it's now track1. Repeat for track 2. If you want to adjust the CD
track but not the file, drag the blocks that are directly under the
wave files. They can be moved around seperately from the song files.

Trimmer window? I could never see the point.

To select part of the file just go above the timeline, drag a
selection, hit "T". Instant CD track. Or "S". Instant clip.

Really it's quick and intuitive---once you know how!

Bill

[Laurence Payne]

On 29 Aug 2006 12:45:20 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>You accomplish the same thing, but you do it in what's to me a very
>significantly different manner. When using the Trimmer window, the
>whole file is always visible and you never take anything out of it. Or
>at least I don't. I mark the portion I want to use, then use the "A"
>keyboard shortcut ("Add the selection to the Timeline") to put it up
>where I'm going to use it. Then I mark another selection in the Trimmer
>window, and pop that up on to the time line. Then I can go up to the
>Timeline and do further trimming and manipulation when working on a
>piece that's already approximately the correct length.
>
>Doing it your way, I'm shortening the large file for every clip that I
>want on the Timeline, and then having to replace the large file by
>dragging it up there again, only to shorten it again, only differently.
>That doesn't make nearly as much sense to me as having the source stay
>put and just move portions of it into the area where I'll do the final
>tweaking.

And both ways, you're really only setting markers to define a window
on the whole file. Nothing is actually moving. No point in pushing
any analogy further than it's useful.

[Michael Putrino]

> wrote in message
...
> On 29 Aug 2006 10:18:28 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
> wrote:
>
>>If I have one file in the Media window, I can drag it to the time line,
>>but then how do I work with it there, dividing it up into sections that
>>I can manipulate? I can't figure out how to select anything but the
>>entire file. Maybe you're thinking that the hour-long recording has
>>already been split up into individual chunks. It hasn't (until I do
>>it). That's what I was doing in the Trimmer window.
>
>
> Drag the whole file to the time line. Let's say it's 2 songs. Cursor
> between 2 songs. Hitting "S" splits the file. Now the ends can be
> adjusted however you want (if you want). Double click song 1. Hit "T"
> - it's now track1. Repeat for track 2. If you want to adjust the CD
> track but not the file, drag the blocks that are directly under the
> wave files. They can be moved around seperately from the song files.
>
> Trimmer window? I could never see the point.
>
> To select part of the file just go above the timeline, drag a
> selection, hit "T". Instant CD track. Or "S". Instant clip.
>
> Really it's quick and intuitive---once you know how!
>
> Bill

Thanks for this as well...

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
the correct length.
>
> Doing it your way, I'm shortening the large file for every clip that I
> want on the Timeline, and then having to replace the large file by
> dragging it up there again, only to shorten it again, only
> differently. That doesn't make nearly as much sense to me as having
> the source stay put and just move portions of it into the area where
> I'll do the final tweaking.

Split it first. But the actual source *file* remains unchanged (it's all
virtual/non-destructive).

geoff

[Geoff]

Michael Putrino wrote:


OT Mike P - how long until they name some sort of fundamental sub-atomic
particle after you ?

geoff

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Michael Putrino wrote:
>
>> The trimmer window seems only useful to me when you want to use a
>> clip multiple times. You make the clip in the trimmer window and
>> drag it to the timeline muleiple times. But if you're only using a
>> clip once in the timeline, it's faster just to do it in the timeline
>> and avoid using the trimmer altogether.
>
> I guess I just don't get it and somebody will have to show me how this
> works. I thought that the "Timeline" was where you put all the clips
> that you wanted to have in your CD project. This is directly related
> (as it worked for me) with the CD Layout Bar.
>
> If I have one file in the Media window, I can drag it to the time
> line, but then how do I work with it there, dividing it up into
> sections that I can manipulate?

RTFM. Hint - position the cursor and hit "S" for Split. Do it again at
the other end of the bit you want to isolate.

I know that's a bit vague and unintuitive, but hey ;-) .


That isolated piece you can now drag around (click-hold left mouse-button,
move mouse) anywhere on the main or secondary timeline. You can still drag
out the edges to reveal preceeding and following audio, change fades, etc.



> I can't figure out how to select
> anything but the entire file. Maybe you're thinking that the
> hour-long recording has already been split up into individual chunks.
> It hasn't (until I do it).

Now is the time to do it. Like a ruler, you can't select and move an
individual inch unless you split it. You can do that on the timelime, or
with the Trimmer. Each method has its best use in different scenarios.

geoff

[Geoff]

Michael Putrino wrote:
> Just right-click-drag a copy of the file from the "media" window to
> the timeline. This will place it on the timeline without a track
> marker. Or left-click-drag if you want the track marker. You can
> drag-copy it as many times as you want, to create as many clips as
> your heart desires. you don't need the trimmer window for htis.


For diddling with event as Mike wants, I put the event on the timeline once,
and use the "S" key to split it. I then drag out the event edges to fine
tune the lengths, pull the event top-edges to adjust the fade times, and
select the fade type.

If I want to do fancy crossfading, I use the second timeline as well.

geoff

[Michael Putrino]

"Geoff" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Putrino wrote:
>
>
> OT Mike P - how long until they name some sort of fundamental
> sub-atomic particle after you ?
>
> geoff
>

Ha! :-) It's been said before. They also call me Al Putrino :-)
Faget-abot-it.

[Mike Rivers]

wrote:

> Drag the whole file to the time line. Let's say it's 2 songs. Cursor
> between 2 songs. Hitting "S" splits the file.

Well, let's say it's 20 songs, but I guess it doesn't make any
difference. I didn't realize that's where Split worked. Geez, that's
simple.

> Trimmer window? I could never see the point.

I guess not, as long as you can do all that stuff in the timeline
window.

> Really it's quick and intuitive---once you know how!

That's the trick. Thanks. But it shouldn't be necessary to have to ask
someone or fumble around and try to remember what worked in order to
learn how to do something so fundamamental. Did I say that I thought
the manual sucks?

[Mike Rivers]

Geoff wrote:

> RTFM. Hint - position the cursor and hit "S" for Split. Do it again at
> the other end of the bit you want to isolate.

I did RTFM. It really only tells you what you can do, not how to do it.
Nothing really ties the tools and functions to acutal work.

> I know that's a bit vague and unintuitive but hey ;-) .

And that's good reason for criticism. If people have to pull teeth or
make like dummies on a newsgroup in order to figure out how to do even
a fundamental task, how do they expect anyone to actually use the
program productively?

Maybe I should have played more video games when I was twelve. Oh, but
they didn't have video games when I was twelve. <g>

[Frank Vuotto]

On 29 Aug 2006 15:34:55 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>Well, let's say it's 20 songs, but I guess it doesn't make any
>difference. I didn't realize that's where Split worked. Geez, that's
>simple.
>
I've always done this in SF, it's easy to highlight a section(song),
copy and then past to new. In the new file you can do the stuff that
SF is good at, fades/trim the ends/clean up noises/etc. These are
chores that have to be done so may as well get it done upfront instead
of bouncing back and forth between SF and CDA.

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/

[Frank Vuotto]

On 29 Aug 2006 15:40:07 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>I did RTFM. It really only tells you what you can do, not how to do it.
>Nothing really ties the tools and functions to acutal work.
>
Have you ever seen a Sony manual that has been comprehensible? SF/CDA
is probably better than most because they had the Sonic Foundry manual
already and neither program has changed much.

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>
>> Really it's quick and intuitive---once you know how!
>
> That's the trick. Thanks. But it shouldn't be necessary to have to ask
> someone or fumble around and try to remember what worked in order to
> learn how to do something so fundamamental. Did I say that I thought
> the manual sucks?

Dunno, it's so intuitive to me that I've never felt the need to consult the
manual !

geoff

[Geoff]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>
> Maybe I should have played more video games when I was twelve. Oh, but
> they didn't have video games when I was twelve. <g>

That theory about video games affecting the mind is all rubbish. If that
was the case, my peers would all be staggering around in dark dingy places,
listening to boring monotonous music, while gobbling down little white
pills....... oh.

geoff

[Mike Rivers]

Geoff wrote:

> Mike Rivers wrote:
> > Maybe I should have played more video games when I was twelve. Oh, but
> > they didn't have video games when I was twelve. <g>

> That theory about video games affecting the mind is all rubbish. If that
> was the case, my peers would all be staggering around in dark dingy places,

Wrong theory. What I meant was that if I played video games, I'd be
comfortable with the concept that I don't have any idea what I have to
do in order to win, and just spend enough time playing that I
eventually get the hang of it.

Speaking of understanding things, can you give me a clue as to what the
sliders in the "Find Glitch" tool do? I'm shaking down the CEntrance
Universal ASIO driver with the Onyx mixer Firewire card. I recorded an
8-track hour-long project, just a steady sine wave on each track, and
wanted to see if there were any glitches. I didn't see any, but that's
a lot to look through. So I ran that tool on a file and it didn't find
any glitches. So I created one by cutting out about 1/4 of a cycle and
it didn't find that. Played with a few different settings of the
sliders but that wasn't very intuitive or effective.

No clue in the documentation, of course. Maybe it's in the Vegas
manual. <g>

[Mike Rivers]

Allright! Pardon my Saxon, but what the **** did I do?

When I select a region now, I don't get what I selected, but the start
and end points jump outward so that the selection length is the next
even increment of 1 second. I must have inadvertently changed a setting
and I can't figure out what it is.

HALLLPPPPPP!!!!!!!

[[email protected]]

On 30 Aug 2006 09:09:06 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>
>Allright! Pardon my Saxon, but what the **** did I do?
>
>When I select a region now, I don't get what I selected, but the start
>and end points jump outward so that the selection length is the next
>even increment of 1 second. I must have inadvertently changed a setting
>and I can't figure out what it is.
>
>HALLLPPPPPP!!!!!!!


f8

[Peter A. Stoll]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in news:1156954146.332372.147560
@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> When I select a region now, I don't get what I selected, but the start
> and end points jump outward so that the selection length is the next
> even increment of 1 second. I must have inadvertently changed a setting
> and I can't figure out what it is.

I use Sound Forge 6, but had not seen that. I tried in Help, searching for
"snap". The behavior you describe perfectly fits the Autosnap to Time
function, with it describes as an option on the "Options" menu.

If you click Options up at the top, I'll bet you'll find AutoSnap to Time
is selected. Just click on it to unselect.

As to how it got that way, the keyboard way to get it would be A-O followed
by T, so if you might possibly have typed that it would do it (it will also
undo it).

I imagine you are in a later version than 6, but suspect this is close.

[Mike Rivers]

wrote:

> >When I select a region now, I don't get what I selected, but the start
> >and end points jump outward so that the selection length is the next
> >even increment of 1 second.

> f8

I searched the manual and according to that, F8 toggles drag-and-drop
snapping on and off. If that has anything to do with the problem that I
described, I'll eat the manual and the CD that it came on. No, wait a
minute . . . I'll find the person who wrote the manual and make him or
her eat it.

[Mike Rivers]

Peter A. Stoll wrote:

> The behavior you describe perfectly fits the Autosnap to Time
> function, with it describes as an option on the "Options" menu.

It does? What the heck does "Autosnap to Time mean?

OK, I figured it out. Acutally, I figured it out because right under it
is "Autosnap to Zero" which apparently snaps to the nearest zero
crossing, which could be very handy, particularly once I found (in
another option or preference) that you can set it to snap to
positive-going or negative-going zero crossings, or, for those who
don't know any better and think that losing half a cycle will destroy
their elusive audio quality, any zero crossing.

> If you click Options up at the top, I'll bet you'll find AutoSnap to Time
> is selected. Just click on it to unselect.

The trick for me was recognizing that it was selected. I'm accustomed
to seeing a check mark next to selected options (which seems to be a
Windows convention) but Sound Forge draws a little box around it. I saw
that and figured it was part of the icon.

> As to how it got that way, the keyboard way to get it would be A-O followed
> by T, so if you might possibly have typed that it would do it (it will also
> undo it).

Well, I suppose I might have typed that. I dunno. But I do remember
looking at those "snap to" options, tried to select one to see what it
did, and didn't think I selected it because there was no check mark.

This is one product I won't offer to rewrite the manual for, but it
sure needs someone to do it.

> I imagine you are in a later version than 6, but suspect this is close.

Version 8, in fact 8.0d You've probably had two more years to learn it
than I have.

[[email protected]]

On 30 Aug 2006 13:28:48 -0700, "Mike Rivers" >
wrote:

>
wrote:
>
>> >When I select a region now, I don't get what I selected, but the start
>> >and end points jump outward so that the selection length is the next
>> >even increment of 1 second.
>
>> f8
>
>I searched the manual and according to that, F8 toggles drag-and-drop
>snapping on and off. If that has anything to do with the problem that I
>described, I'll eat the manual and the CD that it came on. No, wait a
>minute . . . I'll find the person who wrote the manual and make him or
>her eat it.

Sorry. The command is alt+F8. Go to options and uncheck "Quantize to
Frames".

[Peter A. Stoll]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in
ups.com:

> The trick for me was recognizing that it was selected. I'm accustomed
> to seeing a check mark next to selected options (which seems to be a
> Windows convention) but Sound Forge draws a little box around it. I
> saw that and figured it was part of the icon.
>

Ugh--they used the check-marks on my version 6--guess they "improved" it
later.

>> As to how it got that way, the keyboard way to get it would be A-O
>> followed by T, so if you might possibly have typed that it would do
>> it (it will also undo it).

That should have read "Alt-O followed by T", sorry, but I now doubt you
typed that anyway, as you remember visiting this location.

>
> Version 8, in fact 8.0d You've probably had two more years to learn it
> than I have.

I've been Sound Forging since I stopped SAWing, maybe six years ago, I'm
not sure. To me at this point the user interface seems pretty natural in
most respects. For example, despite the fact I've purchased it for its
enormously better notch filtering, I've not converted to Adobe Audition 2.0
because I stumble all over the keyboard and mouse trying to do very simple
things.

Part of "natural" in user interfaces is what you are used to.

[Geoff]

Mike,

Similar suggestion for what you are trying to do here. They do take notice
of their forums.

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=478441

geoff