Engineers don't run companies

[Powell]

"Robert Morein" wrote

> > Morien still hasn't substantiated this claim by any means
> >other than personal attack and introduction of a discussion
> >of hard drives and CPU fans, not facts about CD burners.
> >
> > > There is a naive misconception as to what MTBF means.
> >
> > True, but Morein so far you haven't made the issue
> > relevant here.
> >
It's a good thing businesses are run-out of the front
office and not out of engineering. Your quoted
statistical models have little practical value in the
real world. Hard drives are spec build based on
managerial accounting (cost/profit). As one Western
Digital representative put it, our drives have a ½ of
1% failure rate. There is no economic advantage in
producing higher quality in a highly competitive
marketplace. So you can lump-in all your stats and
it still comes out the same number (½ of 1% failure
rate).

[WorldJAZZ Chairman]

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" wrote
>
> > > Morien still hasn't substantiated this claim by any means
> > >other than personal attack and introduction of a discussion
> > >of hard drives and CPU fans, not facts about CD burners.
> > >
> > > > There is a naive misconception as to what MTBF means.
> > >
> > > True, but Morein so far you haven't made the issue
> > > relevant here.
> > >
> It's a good thing businesses are run-out of the front
> office and not out of engineering. Your quoted
> statistical models have little practical value in the
> real world. Hard drives are spec build based on
> managerial accounting (cost/profit). As one Western
> Digital representative put it, our drives have a ½ of
> 1% failure rate. There is no economic advantage in
> producing higher quality in a highly competitive
> marketplace. So you can lump-in all your stats and
> it still comes out the same number (½ of 1% failure
> rate).
>
>
>
I agree with the above.
MTBF is an engineering tool. It has a very valid use in the design of disk
drives, but not as a consumer spec.
My correction to Arny was specific to his use of MTBF as indicative of how
long the drives will last. By definition, MTBF has no application to that
question, and no relationship to the parameter known as EOL.

The process engineers who use these terms use them with all of the
conditionals properly instantiated. When these terms are bantered to the
public, the conditionals are hidden or changed, leading to great advertising
specmanship but little else.

Not to pick nits, but simply as an illustration, I would point out that the
citation of 0.5% failure rate is not mathematically complete unless the time
span is given. For example, if questioned further, the WD salesman may
clarify by saying that's the percentage they get back during the warranty
period. Recently, disk drive manufacturers have reduced their warranty
coverage from three years to one.

[Arny Krueger]

"Powell" > wrote in message

> "Robert Morein" wrote
>
>>> Morien still hasn't substantiated this claim by any means
>>> other than personal attack and introduction of a discussion
>>> of hard drives and CPU fans, not facts about CD burners.
>>>
>>>> There is a naive misconception as to what MTBF means.
>>>
>>> True, but Morein so far you haven't made the issue
>>> relevant here.
>>>
> It's a good thing businesses are run-out of the front
> office and not out of engineering. Your quoted
> statistical models have little practical value in the
> real world. Hard drives are spec build based on
> managerial accounting (cost/profit). As one Western
> Digital representative put it, our drives have a ½ of
> 1% failure rate. There is no economic advantage in
> producing higher quality in a highly competitive
> marketplace. So you can lump-in all your stats and
> it still comes out the same number (½ of 1% failure
> rate).

That would be ½ of 1% per what time period?

IME it might be ½ of 1% per month, or something like that.

[ScottW]

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" wrote
>
> > > Morien still hasn't substantiated this claim by any means
> > >other than personal attack and introduction of a discussion
> > >of hard drives and CPU fans, not facts about CD burners.
> > >
> > > > There is a naive misconception as to what MTBF means.
> > >
> > > True, but Morein so far you haven't made the issue
> > > relevant here.
> > >
> It's a good thing businesses are run-out of the front
> office and not out of engineering. Your quoted
> statistical models have little practical value in the
> real world. Hard drives are spec build based on
> managerial accounting (cost/profit). As one Western
> Digital representative put it, our drives have a ½ of
> 1% failure rate. There is no economic advantage in
> producing higher quality in a highly competitive
> marketplace. So you can lump-in all your stats and
> it still comes out the same number (½ of 1% failure
> rate).

In what time period? I assume he is saying
they experience this DOA rate as he is
talking about quality, not reliability.
This stupid representative doesn't know
how much they will have to lower their prices
to maintain market share if they develop a
reputation for poor quality.
Engineers have to save stupid marketeers and
representatives from saying meaningless stuff
all the time.

Tell the users of transaction processors and
telecom systems that MTBF has
little use. Their system architecures,uptime and lack
of user noticeable service reductions depends
on their ability to understand these numbers
and MTTR.

ScottW

[ScottW]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Powell" > wrote in message
>
> > "Robert Morein" wrote
> >
> >>> Morien still hasn't substantiated this claim by any means
> >>> other than personal attack and introduction of a discussion
> >>> of hard drives and CPU fans, not facts about CD burners.
> >>>
> >>>> There is a naive misconception as to what MTBF means.
> >>>
> >>> True, but Morein so far you haven't made the issue
> >>> relevant here.
> >>>
> > It's a good thing businesses are run-out of the front
> > office and not out of engineering. Your quoted
> > statistical models have little practical value in the
> > real world. Hard drives are spec build based on
> > managerial accounting (cost/profit). As one Western
> > Digital representative put it, our drives have a ½ of
> > 1% failure rate. There is no economic advantage in
> > producing higher quality in a highly competitive
> > marketplace. So you can lump-in all your stats and
> > it still comes out the same number (½ of 1% failure
> > rate).
>
> That would be ½ of 1% per what time period?
>
> IME it might be ½ of 1% per month, or something like that.

Its a quality number, DOAs. Drives that fail the initial format
attempt.

ScottW

[ScottW]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> The Dilterrier barks.
>
> > Engineers have to save stupid marketeers and
> > representatives from saying meaningless stuff
> > all the time.
>
> So your true identity is the role model for the Pointy-Haired Boss.

You are so insignificant.

ScottW

[ScottW]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Why hasn't that pooper-scooper arrived yet? Dang.
>
> > > The Dilterrier barks.
> > >
> > > > Engineers have to save stupid marketeers and
> > > > representatives from saying meaningless stuff
> > > > all the time.
> > >
> > > So your true identity is the role model for the Pointy-Haired Boss.
> >
> > You are so insignificant.
>
> Its too bad you can't respond to any of the facts and logics
> I presented, earlier. The Democrats are trying to make everybody
> fail so I have to pay more taxe's. Go back to China if you hate it
> here.

Somebody forget to turn the lights out in
your rubber room tonight?

ScottW

[WorldJAZZ Chairman]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Why hasn't that pooper-scooper arrived yet? Dang.
>
> > > The Dilterrier barks.
> > >
> > > > Engineers have to save stupid marketeers and
> > > > representatives from saying meaningless stuff
> > > > all the time.
> > >
> > > So your true identity is the role model for the Pointy-Haired Boss.
> >
> > You are so insignificant.
>
> Its too bad you can't respond to any of the facts and logics
> I presented, earlier. The Democrats are trying to make everybody
> fail so I have to pay more taxe's. Go back to China if you hate it
> here.
>
Your point's the same all the loser's havr to offer. Of course the digital
approaches are
even more attractive to implement and more widely implemented than they were
then. You know you have been lecturing me about how little I know about
audio compared to vinyl freeks. The incredible Middius mind reading act
rides again. Scottw posts a
questionable statement I think I'll just lie down on a comfortable couch and
laugh for a while. I have more hour's playing the Kazoo than your mohter
ever drempt of. It's as invalid now as it was then. The logistics of this
argument are alwasy the same, Middius. Why don't try another note,

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW" > wrote in message
news:4uR3c.4528$Nj.1455@fed1read01
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Powell" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Robert Morein" wrote
>>>
>>>>> Morien still hasn't substantiated this claim by any means
>>>>> other than personal attack and introduction of a discussion
>>>>> of hard drives and CPU fans, not facts about CD burners.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a naive misconception as to what MTBF means.
>>>>>
>>>>> True, but Morein so far you haven't made the issue
>>>>> relevant here.
>>>>>
>>> It's a good thing businesses are run-out of the front
>>> office and not out of engineering. Your quoted
>>> statistical models have little practical value in the
>>> real world. Hard drives are spec build based on
>>> managerial accounting (cost/profit). As one Western
>>> Digital representative put it, our drives have a ½ of
>>> 1% failure rate. There is no economic advantage in
>>> producing higher quality in a highly competitive
>>> marketplace. So you can lump-in all your stats and
>>> it still comes out the same number (½ of 1% failure
>>> rate).
>>
>> That would be ½ of 1% per what time period?
>>
>> IME it might be ½ of 1% per month, or something like that.
>
> Its a quality number, DOAs. Drives that fail the initial format
> attempt.

Oh, ½ of 1% AQL.

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW" > wrote in message
news:7sS3c.4545$Nj.283@fed1read01
> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> The Dilterrier barks.
>>
>>> Engineers have to save stupid marketeers and
>>> representatives from saying meaningless stuff
>>> all the time.
>>
>> So your true identity is the role model for the Pointy-Haired Boss.
>
> You are so insignificant.

Except in his own mind.

[Powell]

"WorldJAZZ Chairman" wrote

> Not to pick nits, but simply as an illustration, I would
> point out that the citation of 0.5% failure rate is not
> mathematically complete unless the time span is
> given.
>
Well, yes and no. WD, for example, established a design
point (1/2 of 1%) that is based on a number of factors
when it places a price tag on a commodity for the market
niche they want to occupy. If you believe that it is a truly
competitive market place (hard drives) then all similar
companies have comparable products
(WD/Seagate/Maxtor). I think that’s true.

The proof of the pudding would include a review of
insurance tables for the industry. Many aspects of the
intended user’s application are beyond the
manufacture’s ability to control or reasonably design
for, in their market niche. For example a power surge
on a unprotected computer which destroys the HD. In
addition each product line has different intended users
(consumers/business/enterprise). Point being is that
the ½ of 1 % is a more accurate overview because is a
summary of many different factors not just the specific
technical specification of the product itself.

I remember a time when a hard drive crash meant that
the mechanicals in the HD stopped working. Today it
usually means that the tech can’t fix the OS problem.
Hence a new HD is installed and unnecessary billing
hours are charged to the consumer/business.

> For example, if questioned further, the WD salesman
> may clarify by saying that's the percentage they get back
> during the warranty period. Recently, disk drive
> manufacturers have reduced their warranty coverage
> from three years to one.
>
I agree. The megabit per dollar is so low now that there
is little profit margin per unit. The cost for providing a
longer warranty cannot be justify. Even so, I’d take my
chances on a 3% failure rate if the cost per unit justified
it. HD failure is a non-issue. The majority of
computers headed for the recycle bid have full operating
hard drives.

[Powell]

"ScottW" wrote

> This stupid representative doesn't know
> how much they will have to lower their prices
> to maintain market share if they develop a
> reputation for poor quality.
>
Sure they do or they wouldn't be profitable.


> Engineers have to save stupid marketeers and
> representatives from saying meaningless stuff
> all the time.
>
Accounting, operations and marketing say that
about engineers... from nicer office spaces :).


> Tell the users of transaction processors and
> telecom systems that MTBF has little use.
> Their system architecures,uptime and lack
> of user noticeable service reductions depends
> on their ability to understand these numbers
> and MTTR.
>
If they haven't factored out HD down time then they’re
not competitive. What excuse could the IT department
come up with to justify HD down time? If the system
is properly engineered this can’t happen except in
instances which are beyond their ability to control
(acts of God).

[Robert Morein]

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "WorldJAZZ Chairman" wrote
>
> > Not to pick nits, but simply as an illustration, I would
> > point out that the citation of 0.5% failure rate is not
> > mathematically complete unless the time span is
> > given.
> >
> Well, yes and no. WD, for example, established a design
> point (1/2 of 1%) that is based on a number of factors
> when it places a price tag on a commodity for the market
> niche they want to occupy. If you believe that it is a truly
> competitive market place (hard drives) then all similar
> companies have comparable products
> (WD/Seagate/Maxtor). I think that's true.
>
This is a good post, though I disagree slightly with the above.
It might actually be true with respect to the last few years.
Go back 4 years or more, and occasionally in the past two years, there have
been noticed differences in hard disk reliablity.
Going back a few years, WD drives became known to me for sticktion problems.
The IBM Deskstar debacle.
Noisy spindle bearings on 60 gB Maxtors.
These are just my personal anecdotes, but I think it's too early to conclude
that hard drives have become utterly generic in their failure
characteristics. It might have happened, but we need to observe a little
longer.

> The proof of the pudding would include a review of
> insurance tables for the industry. Many aspects of the
> intended user's application are beyond the
> manufacture's ability to control or reasonably design
> for, in their market niche. For example a power surge
> on a unprotected computer which destroys the HD. In
> addition each product line has different intended users
> (consumers/business/enterprise). Point being is that
> the ½ of 1 % is a more accurate overview because is a
> summary of many different factors not just the specific
> technical specification of the product itself.
>
> I remember a time when a hard drive crash meant that
> the mechanicals in the HD stopped working. Today it
> usually means that the tech can't fix the OS problem.
> Hence a new HD is installed and unnecessary billing
> hours are charged to the consumer/business.
>
> > For example, if questioned further, the WD salesman
> > may clarify by saying that's the percentage they get back
> > during the warranty period. Recently, disk drive
> > manufacturers have reduced their warranty coverage
> > from three years to one.
> >
> I agree. The megabit per dollar is so low now that there
> is little profit margin per unit. The cost for providing a
> longer warranty cannot be justify. Even so, I'd take my
> chances on a 3% failure rate if the cost per unit justified
> it. HD failure is a non-issue. The majority of
> computers headed for the recycle bid have full operating
> hard drives.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[ScottW]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >...
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> news:4uR3c.4528$Nj.1455@fed1read01
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Powell" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> "Robert Morein" wrote
> >>>
> >>>>> Morien still hasn't substantiated this claim by any means
> >>>>> other than personal attack and introduction of a discussion
> >>>>> of hard drives and CPU fans, not facts about CD burners.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> There is a naive misconception as to what MTBF means.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> True, but Morein so far you haven't made the issue
> >>>>> relevant here.
> >>>>>
> >>> It's a good thing businesses are run-out of the front
> >>> office and not out of engineering. Your quoted
> >>> statistical models have little practical value in the
> >>> real world. Hard drives are spec build based on
> >>> managerial accounting (cost/profit). As one Western
> >>> Digital representative put it, our drives have a ½ of
> >>> 1% failure rate. There is no economic advantage in
> >>> producing higher quality in a highly competitive
> >>> marketplace. So you can lump-in all your stats and
> >>> it still comes out the same number (½ of 1% failure
> >>> rate).
> >>
> >> That would be ½ of 1% per what time period?
> >>
> >> IME it might be ½ of 1% per month, or something like that.
> >
> > Its a quality number, DOAs. Drives that fail the initial format
> > attempt.
>
> Oh, ½ of 1% AQL.

NO, the term AQL is usually used to refer to sample plans that have a
90% probablity of accepting lots of product with a given percent
defective.
They don't provide much info on the actual percent defective or how
many defectives are required before the plan will give a decent
probability of rejecting the lot.
They are (as one of my ASQC course instructors once said) a license
to ship ****.
LTPD (Lot Tolerant Percent defective) plans give the inverse or a
90% probability of rejecting a lot of given percent defective.

One is biased to protect the customer from getting lots of bad
product, the AQL is biased toward protecting the supplier from
rejecting lots of acceptable quality products. Apparently WD has an
AQL mentality.

BTW, I just plucked this quote off an internal e-mail group at work.
You might want to send it off to the moron rep at western digital:

"I too used to favor Western Digital drives (ever since about the
420MB
versions many years ago.)

More recently (past year or so) the WD drives I've been using have
been
failing more rapidly. I do RMA my drives but only when I can
successfully run a CIA-grade wipe utility off a linux boot floppy on
it
(lately, I've been able to do this despite problems on the drive cause
they haven't been full crashes)

I'm seeing my WD drives now fail at least twice as frequently as they
used to...I only buy them when they're free or close to it. Seagates
seem to be the next drives I'll be buying in mass :)"


ScottW

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW" > wrote in message
om

Quoting co-worker:

>" I'm seeing my WD drives now fail at least twice as frequently as they
> used to...I only buy them when they're free or close to it. Seagates
> seem to be the next drives I'll be buying in mass :)"

My usage is about equally distributed between Maxtor, Hitachi (ex-IBM) and
WD. They all seem to fail at the same rate.

[Powell]

"George M. Middius" wrote

> Powell said:
>
> > (acts of God).
>
> You don't pass as pious, Help Desk Boy.
>
I came across a Zen story/kone (metaphorical paradox
regarding duality) the other day. The story: three men
observing a flag blowing in the wind. The first man says,
look the flag is moving. The 2nd man replies, no it's the
wind that is moving. The 3rd man says, your both wrong,
it's your mind that is moving. More God stuff, George :).

[ScottW]

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
>
> > Tell the users of transaction processors and
> > telecom systems that MTBF has little use.
> > Their system architecures,uptime and lack
> > of user noticeable service reductions depends
> > on their ability to understand these numbers
> > and MTTR.
> >
> If they haven't factored out HD down time then they're
> not competitive. What excuse could the IT department
> come up with to justify HD down time?

None, this is why all the really reliable systems
use large RAID arrays or equivalent.

ScottW

[Powell]

"George M. Middius" wrote

> > I came across a Zen story/koan (metaphorical paradox
> > regarding duality) the other day. The story: three men
> > observing a flag blowing in the wind. The first man says,
> > look the flag is moving. The 2nd man replies, no it's the
> > wind that is moving. The 3rd man says, you're both wrong,
> > it's your mind that is moving. More God stuff, George :).
>
> Funny how it's the semiliterate nincompoops who try to
> push the "God" **** at every opportunity.....
>
Poor baby, sounds like you're still having issues. Perhaps
you could explain why I should care, mr. Superior Intellect?

[Arny Krueger]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message

> Oops, you forgot to read my parable....
>
> Here's one from work today: The document didn't print. The
> application (MS Office) didn't report a problem. The printer had
> paper in its trays and wasn't sounding a toner alarm. What was it?
> The first geek said, "Network problem!" The second geek said, "#%(*
> Microsoft problem!" The third geek said, "You're both wrong. It's
> transcendicity -- the electrons have become disoriented and are
> unable to be absorbed by the printer's pargonomic aura."

OK Middius, so you revel in bad technology AND bad theology.

What's your point?

[Powell]

"George M. Middius" wrote

> > > Funny how it's the semiliterate nincompoops who try to
> > > push the "God" **** at every opportunity.....
> > >
> > Poor baby, sounds like you're still having issues. Perhaps
> > you could explain why I should care, mr. Superior Intellect?
>
> Perhaps *you* should explain how your "God" **** is remotely
> relevant to the reliability and/or planned obsolescence of
> electronics, Mr. Corn-Dog Intellect.
>
"Acts of God"... is a well know business term. It's
commonly uses in written boil plate agreements. I
suspect your home owners insurance policy uses it
to define liability. It is, what it is... whoops, that's Zen :).


> Oops, you forgot to read my parable....
>
Pardon my incivility. Ok, I'll bite.


> Here's one from work today: The document didn't print. The
> application (MS Office) didn't report a problem. The printer had
> paper in its trays and wasn't sounding a toner alarm. What was it?
> The first geek said, "Network problem!" The second geek said, "#%(*
> Microsoft problem!" The third geek said, "You're both wrong. It's
> transcendicity -- the electrons have become disoriented and are
> unable to be absorbed by the printer's pargonomic aura."
>
Ok, I read it. Sounds like your job environment is making
you suffer. Is that a problem for you?


> Or I could just assume your silence bespeaks an overmatched
> idiocy.
>
"overmatched"... yea, that's it.

[Powell]

"Arny Krueger" wrote

> > Here's one from work today: The document didn't print. The
> > application (MS Office) didn't report a problem. The printer had
> > paper in its trays and wasn't sounding a toner alarm. What was it?
> > The first geek said, "Network problem!" The second geek said, "#%(*
> > Microsoft problem!" The third geek said, "You're both wrong. It's
> > transcendicity -- the electrons have become disoriented and are
> > unable to be absorbed by the printer's pargonomic aura."
>
> OK Middius, so you revel in bad technology AND bad theology.
>
> What's your point?
>
The irony is to much for me to handle :))).

[ScottW]

"Powell" > wrote in message >...
> "ScottW" wrote
>
> > This stupid representative doesn't know
> > how much they will have to lower their prices
> > to maintain market share if they develop a
> > reputation for poor quality.
> >
> Sure they do or they wouldn't be profitable.
>
>
> > Engineers have to save stupid marketeers and
> > representatives from saying meaningless stuff
> > all the time.
> >
> Accounting, operations and marketing say that
> about engineers... from nicer office spaces :).

Accounting? No, not in my company. Pretty much
the same.

Operations? No, definitely not. Sr. Engineers
have better digs than operations managers.

Marketing? Well everybody in marketing that deals
with customers is a VP cuz customers just like to
think they're dealing with someone with clout.

ScottW

[ScottW]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Yappity-yappity-yap.
>
> > Operations? No, definitely not. Sr. Engineers
> > have better digs than operations managers.
> >
> > Marketing? Well everybody in marketing that deals
> > with customers is a VP cuz customers just like to
> > think they're dealing with someone with clout.
>
> Are you seriously telling us that in that bizarre world you inhabit,
> customers meet with marketing managers?

Yes

>Why would they want to, and
> what would a company hope to gain from that?

To find out what the customer need and are willing to buy
and how much will they pay for it.

Jeez, no wonder you remained a contract employee.

ScottW

[ScottW]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> >
> > To find out what the customer need and are willing to buy
> > and how much will they pay for it.
>
> Where I come from, that's not a "marketing" job. Do you believe that
> anybody who's not an "engineer" is a marketer?

Nobody knows what planet you come form.
>
>
> > Jeez, no wonder you remained a contract employee.
>
> I thought you told me I was on welfare. Make up your mind.

Ok, your period of employment before welfare was a figment
of your delusionary imagination.

ScottW

[Powell]

"George M. Middius" wrote

> > > > > Funny how it's the semiliterate nincompoops who try to
> > > > > push the "God" **** at every opportunity.....
> > > > >
> > > > Poor baby, sounds like you're still having issues. Perhaps
> > > > you could explain why I should care, mr. Superior Intellect?
> > >
> > > Perhaps *you* should explain how your "God" **** is remotely
> > > relevant to the reliability and/or planned obsolescence of
> > > electronics, Mr. Corn-Dog Intellect.
>
> > "Acts of God"... is a well know business term.
>
> oooooh .... a "debating trade" ploy.
>
Aaah, I see your problem, too. You need a bigger
shovel.


> Do you honestly believe that insurance policies are religious
> mantras?
>
God references are interwoven into the underpinnings of
our society. "In God we trust," "one nation under God," etc.
We do not live in a Godless society.

As I last recall you recently move your ideology dipstick
from atheist to agnostic. Were you just hedging your
bet, George :)?


> > > Here's one from work today: The document didn't print. The
> > > application (MS Office) didn't report a problem. The printer had
> > > paper in its trays and wasn't sounding a toner alarm. What was it?
> > > The first geek said, "Network problem!" The second geek said, "#%(*
> > > Microsoft problem!" The third geek said, "You're both wrong. It's
> > > transcendicity -- the electrons have become disoriented and are
> > > unable to be absorbed by the printer's pargonomic aura."
> > >
> > Ok, I read it. Sounds like your job environment is making
> > you suffer. Is that a problem for you?
>
> Parables are not real and true, silly. They are ... parables.
>
Wrong again, Georgie-poo.

par-a-ble (par'uh buhl) n.
1. a short allegorical story designed to
illustrate or teach some truth,
religious principle, or moral lesson.

How is it that you are so spiritually empty given all of the real
life experiences you've had with death (mortuary business)?
Have you never had a single experience of divinity as a result?
How can you not be effected by these experiences? What
deeper meaning have these experience taught you, if anything?

[Powell]

George "Superficial" Middius wrote

> > > > > Perhaps *you* should explain how your "God" **** is remotely
> > > > > relevant to the reliability and/or planned obsolescence of
> > > > > electronics, Mr. Corn-Dog Intellect.
> > >
> > > > "Acts of God"... is a well know business term.
> > >
> > > oooooh .... a "debating trade" ploy.
> > >
> > Aaah, I see your problem, too. You need a bigger
> > shovel.
>
> I agree. I used to have a great big one, but then I killfiled
> Krooger. I guess I need to pull it out of mothballs if I want to
> clear out some your droppings.
>
Do what you got-to-do :)!


> > > Do you honestly believe that insurance policies are religious
> > > mantras?
> > >
> > God references are interwoven into the underpinnings of
> > our society. "In God we trust," "one nation under God," etc.
>
> Those are not underpinnings, they are the empty, hypocritical,
> sanctimonious bleatings of pandering politicians.
>
> > We do not live in a Godless society.
>
> How delusional of you.
>
> The reality is that we live in a society that is supposed to allow
> complete freedom of religion. Are you familiar with the U.S.
> Constitution?
>
The Constitution protects religions... freedom to worship
any notion of God. Separation of church and state is
designed to protect the citizen from governmental hindrance
of religious expression, too.

The Constitution doesn't protects atheists, for example,
because it isn't a religion.


> > As I last recall you recently move your ideology dipstick
> > from atheist to agnostic. Were you just hedging your
> > bet, George :)?
>
> As far as your lamebrained idea of "God", Help Desk Boy, it is
> purely a figment of your imagination. However, many deep thinkers
> (some scientists among them) have postulated a "God" of an entirely
> different nature, the nature of which may be provable. Sadly, these
> notions are beyond both your ability to comprehend and your tiny
> willingness to think about unknowns.
>
God is a thought, an idea. But its reference transcends
all thinking. All religions are true in this sense, they are
metaphorical of the human and cosmic mystery. Why not
recognize that?

You seem to be hung-up on objective ("provable") reality
which limits thinking to rationalizations. Statistics, for
example, defy objective rationality but we seem to live with
the duality quite well.


> > > > > Here's one from work today: The document didn't print. The
> > > > > application (MS Office) didn't report a problem. The printer had
> > > > > paper in its trays and wasn't sounding a toner alarm. What was it?
> > > > > The first geek said, "Network problem!" The second geek said,
"#%(*
> > > > > Microsoft problem!" The third geek said, "You're both wrong. It's
> > > > > transcendicity -- the electrons have become disoriented and are
> > > > > unable to be absorbed by the printer's pargonomic aura."
> > > > >
> > > > Ok, I read it. Sounds like your job environment is making
> > > > you suffer. Is that a problem for you?
> > >
> > > Parables are not real and true, silly. They are ... parables.
> > >
> > Wrong again, Georgie-poo.
> >
> > par-a-ble (par'uh buhl) n.
> > 1. a short allegorical story designed to
> > illustrate or teach some truth,
> > religious principle, or moral lesson.
>
> God, you are stupid. "Poo" to you, Powie.
>
Hehehe... I guess you should choose your words
more wisely, so to speak.


> > How is it that you are so spiritually empty given all of the real
> > life experiences you've had with death (mortuary business)?
> > Have you never had a single experience of divinity as a result?
> > How can you not be effected by these experiences? What
> > deeper meaning have these experience taught you, if anything?
>
> That we should have embraced euthanasia long ago, for starters.
>
I was looking for something deeper than a mud
puddle, mr. Superficial.

[S888Wheel]

Powell said

> The Constitution protects religions... freedom to worship
>any notion of God. Separation of church and state is
>designed to protect the citizen from governmental hindrance
>of religious expression, too.
>
>The Constitution doesn't protects atheists, for example,
>because it isn't a religion.

Here is what it actually says....

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

I would say the constitution protects an athiest's choice not to execise any
any religion. It also clearly states that the government will not favor any
religion over any other religion. I think one could also say that atheism is a
particular "notion" of god and by your own argument is also protected.

[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George M. Middius" wrote
>
> > > > > > Funny how it's the semiliterate nincompoops who try to
> > > > > > push the "God" **** at every opportunity.....
> > > > > >
> > > > > Poor baby, sounds like you're still having issues. Perhaps
> > > > > you could explain why I should care, mr. Superior Intellect?
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps *you* should explain how your "God" **** is remotely
> > > > relevant to the reliability and/or planned obsolescence of
> > > > electronics, Mr. Corn-Dog Intellect.
> >
> > > "Acts of God"... is a well know business term.
> >
> > oooooh .... a "debating trade" ploy.
> >
> Aaah, I see your problem, too. You need a bigger
> shovel.
>
>
> > Do you honestly believe that insurance policies are religious
> > mantras?
> >
> God references are interwoven into the underpinnings of
> our society. "In God we trust," "one nation under God," etc.
> We do not live in a Godless society.
>
> As I last recall you recently move your ideology dipstick
> from atheist to agnostic. Were you just hedging your
> bet, George :)?
>
>
> > > > Here's one from work today: The document didn't print. The
> > > > application (MS Office) didn't report a problem. The printer had
> > > > paper in its trays and wasn't sounding a toner alarm. What was it?
> > > > The first geek said, "Network problem!" The second geek said, "#%(*
> > > > Microsoft problem!" The third geek said, "You're both wrong. It's
> > > > transcendicity -- the electrons have become disoriented and are
> > > > unable to be absorbed by the printer's pargonomic aura."
> > > >
> > > Ok, I read it. Sounds like your job environment is making
> > > you suffer. Is that a problem for you?
> >
> > Parables are not real and true, silly. They are ... parables.
> >
> Wrong again, Georgie-poo.
>
> par-a-ble (par'uh buhl) n.
> 1. a short allegorical story designed to
> illustrate or teach some truth,
> religious principle, or moral lesson.
>
> How is it that you are so spiritually empty given all of the real
> life experiences you've had with death (mortuary business)?
> Have you never had a single experience of divinity as a result?
> How can you not be effected by these experiences? What
> deeper meaning have these experience taught you, if anything?
>
Do you expect the dead bodies to be talkng to him?
What is so spiritual about a bunch of stiffs?




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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
>
> George "Superficial" Middius wrote
>
> > > > > > Perhaps *you* should explain how your "God" **** is remotely
> > > > > > relevant to the reliability and/or planned obsolescence of
> > > > > > electronics, Mr. Corn-Dog Intellect.
> > > >
> > > > > "Acts of God"... is a well know business term.
> > > >
> > > > oooooh .... a "debating trade" ploy.
> > > >
> > > Aaah, I see your problem, too. You need a bigger
> > > shovel.
> >
> > I agree. I used to have a great big one, but then I killfiled
> > Krooger. I guess I need to pull it out of mothballs if I want to
> > clear out some your droppings.
> >
> Do what you got-to-do :)!
>
>
> > > > Do you honestly believe that insurance policies are religious
> > > > mantras?
> > > >
> > > God references are interwoven into the underpinnings of
> > > our society. "In God we trust," "one nation under God," etc.
> >
> > Those are not underpinnings, they are the empty, hypocritical,
> > sanctimonious bleatings of pandering politicians.
> >
> > > We do not live in a Godless society.
> >
> > How delusional of you.
> >
> > The reality is that we live in a society that is supposed to allow
> > complete freedom of religion. Are you familiar with the U.S.
> > Constitution?
> >
> The Constitution protects religions... freedom to worship
> any notion of God. Separation of church and state is
> designed to protect the citizen from governmental hindrance
> of religious expression, too.
>
> The Constitution doesn't protects atheists, for example,
> because it isn't a religion.
>
>
It protects them from being harassed by a government religion.
The Constitution protects people from governemnt imposed religion.




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[Powell]

"George M. Middius" wrote

> Powell said:
>
> > The Constitution doesn't protects atheists, for example,
> > because it isn't a religion.
>
> > God is a thought, an idea. But its reference transcends
> > all thinking.
>
> I always get to the same place when I try to hack through this
> thicket.
>
Hehehe... Oh yea, " when I try" that's rich.

We've bantered about the bush on this topic for
years, George. I've yet to detect any ideology or
theology in your bandwidth. On the surface you
appear to live out of a ragbag of empty blissfulness.
You only know what irritates you :).