Better Speakers or Better Amplifier

[t_cos]

What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

[Kalman Rubinson]

On 5 Mar 2004 12:59:02 -0800, (t_cos) wrote:

>What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
>or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

Generally, speakers but that depends on how bad your amp is. ;-)

Kal

[Arny Krueger]

"t_cos" > wrote in message
om
> What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
> or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

There are no guarantees in life or audio. However, the presumption that your
amp is a good amp, is a more likely presumption that your speaker is a good
speaker. Please note that the sound quality of a speaker is highly dependent
on the room it is in, and where the speaker and listener are in that room.

[WorldJAZZ]

"t_cos" > wrote in message
om...
> What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
> or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

Better speakers.
However, there are cases where this is not true, so feel free to run the
specifics by us.

[Marc Phillips]

Arny said:

>"t_cos" > wrote in message
om
>> What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
>> or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.
>
>There are no guarantees in life or audio. However, the presumption that your
>amp is a good amp, is a more likely presumption that your speaker is a good
>speaker. Please note that the sound quality of a speaker is highly dependent
>on the room it is in, and where the speaker and listener are in that room.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio systems sound
like ****.

Boon

[Joseph Oberlander]

Marc Phillips wrote:

> Arny said:
>
>
>>"t_cos" > wrote in message
om
>>
>>>What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
>>>or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.
>>
>>There are no guarantees in life or audio. However, the presumption that your
>>amp is a good amp, is a more likely presumption that your speaker is a good
>>speaker. Please note that the sound quality of a speaker is highly dependent
>>on the room it is in, and where the speaker and listener are in that room.
>
>
> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio systems sound
> like ****.

Actually, he got this exactly right. An amplifier is actually quite a
simple device once you remove the processors and useless features
and such. It is very unlikely that an amplifier is "bad" other than
it isn't capable of properly driving the load from the speakers.

I don't remember the last time I had an amplifier blow up, though
I've seen speakers do that from time to time.

With new and/or better speakers, the problem is very likely to
be solved. Plus, you get better sound out of the deal.

[Arny Krueger]

"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message


> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
> systems sound like ****.

When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
realize that posts like this make you look like a child?

[Marc Phillips]

Arny said:

>"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

>
>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
>> systems sound like ****.
>
>When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
>realize that posts like this make you look like a child?

Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a child.

Boon

[Arny Krueger]

"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message


> Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
> child.


Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that the Marc
Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.

[S888Wheel]

>
>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
>> systems sound like ****.
>
>When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
>realize that posts like this make you look like a child?
>

When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply making fun of
you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions obnoxious then
you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm sorry I had to explain
this to you but there comes a time when it almost becomes uncomfortable to see
somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can think about
what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk reaction that Marc has been
making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect the knee jerk reaction.

[Sander deWaal]

"WorldJAZZ" > said:

>> What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
>> or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

>Better speakers.
>However, there are cases where this is not true, so feel free to run the
>specifics by us.

However, better speakers might reveal a bad amplifier
design...............happened to me!

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

[Marc Phillips]

Arny said:

>"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

>
>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
>> child.
>
>
>Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that the Marc
>Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.

Boon

[Marc Phillips]

S888Wheel said:

>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
>>> systems sound like ****.
>>
>>When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
>>realize that posts like this make you look like a child?
>>
>
>When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply making fun
>of
>you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions obnoxious then
>you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm sorry I had to explain
>this to you but there comes a time when it almost becomes uncomfortable to
>see
>somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can think about
>what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk reaction that Marc has been
>making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect the knee jerk reaction.

Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here in 1996.
What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?

Boon

[Arny Krueger]

"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

> Arny said:
>
>> "Marc Phillips" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
>>> child.
>>
>>
>> Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that
>> the Marc Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.
>
> Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.

Thanks Phillips for demonstrating that you are so illiterate that you can't
tell the difference between an uppercase I and a lowercase L.

[Arny Krueger]

"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

> S888Wheel said:
>
>>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
>>>> systems sound like ****.
>>>
>>> When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal
>>> insight to realize that posts like this make you look like a child?
>>>
>>
>> When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply
>> making fun of
>> you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions
>> obnoxious then you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm
>> sorry I had to explain this to you but there comes a time when it
>> almost becomes uncomfortable to see
>> somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can
>> think about what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk
>> reaction that Marc has been making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect
>> the knee jerk reaction.
>
> Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here
> in 1996. What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?

What's to figure out? You guys are obviously infatuated with me.

[Marc Phillips]

Arny said:

>"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

>> S888Wheel said:
>>
>>>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
>>>>> systems sound like ****.
>>>>
>>>> When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal
>>>> insight to realize that posts like this make you look like a child?
>>>>
>>>
>>> When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply
>>> making fun of
>>> you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions
>>> obnoxious then you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm
>>> sorry I had to explain this to you but there comes a time when it
>>> almost becomes uncomfortable to see
>>> somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can
>>> think about what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk
>>> reaction that Marc has been making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect
>>> the knee jerk reaction.
>>
>> Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here
>> in 1996. What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?
>
>What's to figure out? You guys are obviously infatuated with me.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that your abnormalities are distracting to others.

Boon

[Marc Phillips]

Arny said:

>"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

>> Arny said:
>>
>>> "Marc Phillips" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
>>>> child.
>>>
>>>
>>> Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that
>>> the Marc Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.
>>
>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.
>
>Thanks Phillips for demonstrating that you are so illiterate that you can't
>tell the difference between an uppercase I and a lowercase L.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that even when you correct your typos, you still
make no sense.

Boon

[S888Wheel]

>
>S888Wheel said:
>
>>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
>>>> systems sound like ****.
>>>
>>>When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
>>>realize that posts like this make you look like a child?
>>>
>>
>>When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply making fun
>>of
>>you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions obnoxious
>then
>>you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm sorry I had to explain
>>this to you but there comes a time when it almost becomes uncomfortable to
>>see
>>somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can think about
>>what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk reaction that Marc has been
>>making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect the knee jerk reaction.
>
>Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here in 1996.
>
>What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?
>
>Boon
>
>
>
>
>
>

Nothing. I just think even he deserves the occassional explination.

[S888Wheel]

>> S888Wheel said:
>>
>>>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
>>>>> systems sound like ****.
>>>>
>>>> When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal
>>>> insight to realize that posts like this make you look like a child?
>>>>
>>>
>>> When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply
>>> making fun of
>>> you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions
>>> obnoxious then you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm
>>> sorry I had to explain this to you but there comes a time when it
>>> almost becomes uncomfortable to see
>>> somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can
>>> think about what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk
>>> reaction that Marc has been making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect
>>> the knee jerk reaction.
>>
>> Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here
>> in 1996. What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?
>
>What's to figure out? You guys are obviously infatuated with me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Obviously, Arny hasn't figured out anything so far.

[normanstrong]

"t_cos" > wrote in message
om...
> What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better
speakers
> or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

More to the point, what makes you think either one has to be replaced?
IOW, what's wrong with what you have?

Norm Strong

[Bruce J. Richman]

Mr. Phillips wrote:


>Arny said:
>
>>"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

>>
>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
>>> child.
>>
>>
>>Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that the Marc
>>Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.
>
>Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.
>
>Boon
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks, Mr.Phillips, for recommending that excellent music video with Paul
Simon & Chevy Chase - "You Can Call Me Al".



Bruce J. Richman

[Marc Phillips]

S888Wheel said:

>>S888Wheel said:
>>
>>>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
>>>>> systems sound like ****.
>>>>
>>>>When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
>>>>realize that posts like this make you look like a child?
>>>>
>>>
>>>When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply making
>fun
>>>of
>>>you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions obnoxious
>>then
>>>you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm sorry I had to
>explain
>>>this to you but there comes a time when it almost becomes uncomfortable to
>>>see
>>>somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can think about
>>>what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk reaction that Marc has
>been
>>>making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect the knee jerk reaction.
>>
>>Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here in
>1996.
>>
>>What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?
>>
>>Boon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Nothing. I just think even he deserves the occassional explination.

Really? Personally, I don't think he deserves anything nicer than a swift kick
in the nutsack.

Boon

[Marc Phillips]

Dr. Richman said:

>Mr. Phillips wrote:
>
>
>>Arny said:
>>
>>>"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

>>>
>>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
>>>> child.
>>>
>>>
>>>Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that the Marc
>>>Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.
>>
>>Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.
>>
>>Boon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Thanks, Mr.Phillips, for recommending that excellent music video with Paul
>Simon & Chevy Chase - "You Can Call Me Al".

Thanks Dr Richman for admitting that you post under an alias.

Boon

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article >,
says...

>What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
>or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.

Better speakers.
----------
Alex

[El Evans MMDeuce]

Maybe both are at fault. Have you considered an active monitor rather
than a huge floor-hugging amp, huge cables, and speakers with passive
crossovers? Most of the best orchestral and opera productions and most
film work is mixed down and mastered on active monitors. Maybe for
good reason.

[Mikermckelvy]

>From: (t_cos)
>Date: 3/5/04 12:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
>or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.
>

Assuming whatever amp you have is working properly and is also solid state, the
obvious answer is ALWAYS speakers.

It's not a big deal for any SS amp to produce good Frequency Response and drive
a wide variety of speaker loads.

There are of course some speakers that are more difficult to drive thab others,
most are not.

Since speakers are the only part you really "hear," it makes more sense to
spend your money there with speakers that can be driven by whatever amp you
have.

I'd also suggest that you look at some of the DIY sites like www.madisound.com
or www.zalytron.com for some DIY spekaer kits. Most of these require no more
than a few hours to put together and you don't need much more than a
screwdriver and maybe a soldering iron. You can of course, get by witout any
soldering. The amount of money saved is substantial, usually about 3-5 times
what you would spend on a name brand speakers system.

Good luck.

[S888Wheel]

>
>>>S888Wheel said:
>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that your presence makes all audio
>>>>>> systems sound like ****.
>>>>>
>>>>>When Phillips are you going to grow up and get enough personal insight to
>>>>>realize that posts like this make you look like a child?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>When are you going to see the irony of the fact that he is simply making
>>fun
>>>>of
>>>>you by doing impressions of you? If you find these impressions obnoxious
>>>then
>>>>you unknowingly find your own behavior obnoxious. I'm sorry I had to
>>explain
>>>>this to you but there comes a time when it almost becomes uncomfortable to
>>>>see
>>>>somebody be the butt of so many jokes and never get it. You can think
>about
>>>>what I said or you can have your usual knee jerk reaction that Marc has
>>been
>>>>making fun of lately. Honestly, I expect the knee jerk reaction.
>>>
>>>Arny's been made fun of consistently since his first appearance here in
>>1996.
>>>
>>>What makes you think he's going to figure it out now?
>>>
>>>Boon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Nothing. I just think even he deserves the occassional explination.
>
>Really? Personally, I don't think he deserves anything nicer than a swift
>kick
>in the nutsack.
>
>Boon
>
>
>
>
>
>

You have dealt with him longer than I have. I may eventually change my mind.

[Bruce J. Richman]

Mr. Phillips wrote:

>Dr. Richman said:
>
>>Mr. Phillips wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Arny said:
>>>
>>>>"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Krueger for admitting that you have the personal insight of a
>>>>> child.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Given the repetitive, copycat nature of its posts, it appears that the
>Marc
>>>>Phillips AI has lost most of its subroutines.
>>>
>>>Thanks Krueger for admitting that you think my last name is Al.
>>>
>>>Boon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Thanks, Mr.Phillips, for recommending that excellent music video with Paul
>>Simon & Chevy Chase - "You Can Call Me Al".
>
>Thanks Dr Richman for admitting that you post under an alias.
>
>Boon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Prove it.

Asked and answered.

LOT'S!



Bruce J. Richman

[Michael Dennis]

(Mikermckelvy) wrote in message >...
> >From: (t_cos)
> >Date: 3/5/04 12:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
> >or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.
> >
>
> Assuming whatever amp you have is working properly and is also solid state, the
> obvious answer is ALWAYS speakers.
>
> It's not a big deal for any SS amp to produce good Frequency Response and drive
> a wide variety of speaker loads.
>
> There are of course some speakers that are more difficult to drive thab others,


> most are not.
>
> Since speakers are the only part you really "hear," it makes more sense to
> spend your money there with speakers that can be driven by whatever amp you
> have.
>
> I'd also suggest that you look at some of the DIY sites like www.madisound.com
> or www.zalytron.com for some DIY spekaer kits. Most of these require no more
> than a few hours to put together and you don't need much more than a
> screwdriver and maybe a soldering iron. You can of course, get by witout any
> soldering. The amount of money saved is substantial, usually about 3-5 times
> what you would spend on a name brand speakers system.
>
> Good luck.


It used to be said that there is a heirarchy in HiFi, starting from
the source thro amp and ,lastly ,speakers. Personally I would start
with a good amp that delivered plenty of genuine wattage( ie doesnt
run out of steam) and an then efficient pair of speakers ( 88db
upwards in sensitivity)

[Joseph Oberlander]

Michael Dennis wrote:

> It used to be said that there is a heirarchy in HiFi, starting from
> the source thro amp and ,lastly ,speakers. Personally I would start
> with a good amp that delivered plenty of genuine wattage( ie doesnt
> run out of steam) and an then efficient pair of speakers ( 88db
> upwards in sensitivity)

Unfortunately, if you stuff a 350 V8 into that VW bug, it's
just a bunch of wasted power.

Most amplifiers will last for several decades. They take
a signal and amplify it. Unless you alrady have high-end
speakers, you'll never hear the difference between a $100
amp and a $1000 amp. So upgrading the speakers makes more
sense.

[Arny Krueger]

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
hlink.net

> Unless you alrady have high-end
> speakers, you'll never hear the difference between a $100
> amp and a $1000 amp. So upgrading the speakers makes more
> sense.

Upgrade the speakers until you really know what's wrong with the sound of
the amp.

[t_cos]

Thanks for your opinion. I have a b&w cdm-9nt and a b&k 4430. I
don't have a problem with either but just curious. If I were to
upgrade, which would you think would be money better spent - better
speakers or better amp?

"WorldJAZZ" > wrote in message >...
> "t_cos" > wrote in message
> om...
> > What is your opinion on this - do I spend my money on better speakers
> > or better amps? Which makes more difference? Thanks a lot.
>
> Better speakers.
> However, there are cases where this is not true, so feel free to run the
> specifics by us.

[Joseph Oberlander]

t_cos wrote:

> Thanks for your opinion. I have a b&w cdm-9nt and a b&k 4430. I
> don't have a problem with either but just curious. If I were to
> upgrade, which would you think would be money better spent - better
> speakers or better amp?

Let's start with the speaker side of the equation:

- Budget?
- What are you looking for in the improved sound?
- Special concerns like odd shaped room or needs to be in-wall
or whatnot. Wife saying "get rid of those eyesores" sort
of thing? ;)
- What's the power of your current amplifier - and how low
an impedance load will it handle?

[El Evans MMDeuce]

It's not any big deal for any amp, tube or solid state, to do all the
"book stuff" right: there are tube amps that meet all THD and noise
floor parms of about any production solid state amp. It's not
fundamentally about tubes, for or against. There are amplifiers that
do all the book stuff right and seem to be bad sounding. I don't feel
the need to prove it scientifically. May or may not be true. It's a
moot issue because "good sounding good measuring" amps exist, tube,
bipolar, mosfet, and hybrid.

The weak link in the 'high-end' chain is the passive crossover. Some
are better than others, but crossing over before the amplifier
electronically is guaranteed a better solution in every way. The
amplifier doesn't have to deal with multiple 'carriers' and intermod
doesn't get created in the first place, and the amplifier can be
scaled to fit the driver and its needs, and can control the cone
(damping factor!) much better.

The numerous unnecessary interconnnects, with their RCA connectors,
and ground loop possibilities, and the disinclination to 1) run a
first rate ground and 2) take advantage of the 230V balanced power
almost all homes in the US have, are further signs that High End, as
practiced by the non-DIY crowd, is about penis size rather than sound.

[Michael Dennis]

Joseph Oberlander > wrote in message .net>...
> Michael Dennis wrote:
>
> > It used to be said that there is a heirarchy in HiFi, starting from
> > the source thro amp and ,lastly ,speakers. Personally I would start
> > with a good amp that delivered plenty of genuine wattage( ie doesnt
> > run out of steam) and an then efficient pair of speakers ( 88db
> > upwards in sensitivity)
>
> Unfortunately, if you stuff a 350 V8 into that VW bug, it's
> just a bunch of wasted power.
>
> Most amplifiers will last for several decades. They take
> a signal and amplify it. Unless you alrady have high-end
> speakers, you'll never hear the difference between a $100
> amp and a $1000 amp. So upgrading the speakers makes more
> sense.

There was a trime , about thirty years ago when it was generally
thought that speakers made the greatest difference. Up till that time
turntables were much of a muchness either solid(Garrard) or suspended
subchassis designs which all looked kind of similar (pioneer pl12,
Thorens, AR). Then along came Linn products and the vaunted Linn
Sondek which changed everything and the heirarchical principal held
sway, ie the source was the most important link in the chain followe
by arm , cartridge, amp( preferably pre power) and lastly speakers."
Experts " claimed that is was better to play a first class T/t thro a
decent amp and average speakers than using high end speakers and
ordinary sources / amplification. Linn sondek became the t/t to own
and its price went up ten fold. Even now used ones can fetch $1000( £
600). I remember this dealer telling me they didnt cost much more than
£50 to make , this sowed the seads of cynisism within me.Obviuosly the
"principle" was very beneficial to Linn products and its owner became
very rich.Other manufacturers stepped into the breach making weirder
and weirder t/ts using perspex, brass , bronze and thick platters(eg
Michel gyrodec)in order to entice people to part with substantial
amounts of money.
At the same time a differnt mantra reared its head namely its better
to buy a pre /power than integrated amp, and whilst your at it
consider having seperate power supplies for each component( including
t/t) so Naim steps in and manufactures minimilist products - no tone
controls lights or gizmos , just a volume knob and selector and
advices everyone one to fill a rack full of boxes that make up an amp
and spend a fortune in the process. Naim also became very rich! Now I
know I am a cynic but as someone who enjoys music reproduction but is
in no way technically minded I have one question : Where does truth
end and bull**** begin?
Nowdays I own a valve pre/power namely Audio Innovation 800 and Leak
stereo 20( made in the fifties). I have a modest multibit Rotel 955 cd
player about ten years old and an Alphason sonata t/t which cost me a
lot of money because I was taken in by the "received wisdom" of the
day. As these are no longer made servicing is impossible- in short it
has become obsolete.Alphason have found they can make a load more
dough out making equipment supports.
My speakers are a modest pair of Heybrook Hb1's- about 15 years old .
In truth I am quite content with the sound and would only change the
speakers if I could afford a good pair of horn loaded ones such as
Tannoy Westminster or Lowther. They reproduce the kind of sound that I
am most comfortable with.

Incidentally as t/ t sales have dropped it seems the mantra has
changed and the advice is spend 33% on each component.This is the Uk
maybe in the Usa things are different.

[Joseph Oberlander]

Michael Dennis wrote:

> Joseph Oberlander > wrote in message .net>...

>>Most amplifiers will last for several decades. They take
>>a signal and amplify it. Unless you alrady have high-end
>>speakers, you'll never hear the difference between a $100
>>amp and a $1000 amp. So upgrading the speakers makes more
>>sense.

(snip turntable-related blather)

> Incidentally as t/ t sales have dropped it seems the mantra has
> changed and the advice is spend 33% on each component.This is the Uk
> maybe in the Usa things are different.

This mantra is coming from *salespeople*. That has to be considered.
These same people claim 10% is necessary on wires, as if $50 in fancy
cables does anything other than inflate their profit margin.

For a basic system, I'd recommend changing the speakers first and
then the amplifier

[Sander deWaal]

Joseph Oberlander > said:

>This mantra is coming from *salespeople*. That has to be considered.
>These same people claim 10% is necessary on wires, as if $50 in fancy
>cables does anything other than inflate their profit margin.

Nah.........olde Ivor Tiefenbrun *is* a salesman.

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

[El Evans MMDeuce]

The Linn Sondek is an upscale AR, similar to what Merrill did, except
Tiefenbrun was a far better bull**** artist. The Sondek is a good
table but overpriced, more so than most high end products. It was an
improvement over some of the tables of its day, maybe most, but the
whole idea of more money equaling better sound has some severe limits,
physical and psychological. It's a proven fact that the "mainstream
High End buyer" correlates quality of performance to financial outlay,
and therefore attempts to provide quality inexpensively are often
doomed. Many High End products are actually cheaply made except for
their outer casings.

Nevertheless, really good sound does cost money. It would cost a lot
less if there were a large number of buyers for well designed
equipment priced reasonably proportion to its build cost, and those
customers understood concepts like build cost in the first place.
(There are several over-$10,000 tube amplifiers available, but there
are none-priced there or lower-which are as well built as a Vollum-era
Tektronix oscilloscope or a Collins R-390.) I have my prejudices and
preferences as everyone does, but unless you build your own,good
amplifiers, preamps, and speakers are expensive and you might as well
buy new or late-model-used, because there are no vintage bargains
anymore.

[Michael Dennis]

Joseph Oberlander > wrote in message t>...
> Michael Dennis wrote:
>
> > Joseph Oberlander > wrote in message .net>...
>
> >>Most amplifiers will last for several decades. They take
> >>a signal and amplify it. Unless you alrady have high-end
> >>speakers, you'll never hear the difference between a $100
> >>amp and a $1000 amp. So upgrading the speakers makes more
> >>sense.
>
> (snip turntable-related blather)
>
> > Incidentally as t/ t sales have dropped it seems the mantra has
> > changed and the advice is spend 33% on each component.This is the Uk
> > maybe in the Usa things are different.
>
> This mantra is coming from *salespeople*. That has to be considered.
> These same people claim 10% is necessary on wires, as if $50 in fancy
> cables does anything other than inflate their profit margin.
>
> For a basic system, I'd recommend changing the speakers first and
> then the amplifier

Its not only salesmen but magazine journalists as well with their
biased reporting- they regularly favour some products and ignore many
others( including Sugden) In fact I believe to be them that sow the
seeds of bull**** in the first place.Same goes for wires.

[Michael Dennis]

Sander deWaal > wrote in message >...
> Joseph Oberlander > said:
>
> >This mantra is coming from *salespeople*. That has to be considered.
> >These same people claim 10% is necessary on wires, as if $50 in fancy
> >cables does anything other than inflate their profit margin.
>
> Nah.........olde Ivor Tiefenbrun *is* a salesman.


He is also a very astute business man. He insists that his products
are only sold with others that he approves of therefore showing his in
a good light.Freemarket? Dont think so.

[Michael Dennis]

(El Evans MMDeuce) wrote in message >...
> The Linn Sondek is an upscale AR, similar to what Merrill did, except
> Tiefenbrun was a far better bull**** artist. The Sondek is a good
> table but overpriced, more so than most high end products. It was an
> improvement over some of the tables of its day, maybe most, but the
> whole idea of more money equaling better sound has some severe limits,
> physical and psychological. It's a proven fact that the "mainstream
> High End buyer" correlates quality of performance to financial outlay,
> and therefore attempts to provide quality inexpensively are often
> doomed. Many High End products are actually cheaply made except for
> their outer casings.
>
> Nevertheless, really good sound does cost money. It would cost a lot
> less if there were a large number of buyers for well designed
> equipment priced reasonably proportion to its build cost, and those
> customers understood concepts like build cost in the first place.
> (There are several over-$10,000 tube amplifiers available, but there
> are none-priced there or lower-which are as well built as a Vollum-era
> Tektronix oscilloscope or a Collins R-390.) I have my prejudices and
> preferences as everyone does, but unless you build your own,good
> amplifiers, preamps, and speakers are expensive and you might as well
> buy new or late-model-used, because there are no vintage bargains
> anymore.
Makes a lot of sense. the question is how does one sort the what from
the chaff and find thoser bonafide products.I accept good hi fi costs
money but I also believe there manufactureres ot there who have a love
for music and sound reproduction and want to share it with a wide
audience. They have their opinions and prejudices as well and you may
not aghree with them but I ndo feel they are genuine. One such person
is , I believe , Glen Croft, who has been making tube amps from his
home since the eighties . All his products are nhand made and hard
wired, and I believe he has only one assistant. He is considered a bit
of a lefty maveric over here and his products are hard to find.he has
very definate views regarding analogue versus digital( preferring the
former)valve over transistor(obviuosly) and horn loaded speakers over
the more common designs.He once famously produced a preamp caleed the
"Recession " aimed at the lower end of the market including unemplyed
people of which there were many in the eighties.Sadly in didnt
last.Now his main babies are output transfomer less power amps which
are expensive. they are sold in the US and are marketted, I believe,
by Eminent audio.
I accept that linn sondek is a good T?T but as you say it is way over
priced and no better than the old AR or a good Thorens.