CD Quality Difference in Player

[Surinder Singh]

I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold CD-R it takes
20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be ready to play it
after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2 seconds for boom
to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better quality? I
would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would make the
former a better quality?

Thanks.

-s

[Robert Morein]

"Surinder Singh" > wrote in message
...
> I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold CD-R it
takes
> 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be ready to play
it
> after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2 seconds for
boom
> to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better quality? I
> would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would make the
> former a better quality?
>
> Thanks.
>
Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the burn/no burn
conditions.
The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to correctly
recognize these conditions.
Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to recognize disks with
different reflectivities vary.

Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD players to fail to
recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built into the
calibration function.

What you observe has more to do with the player than the disk.
Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for archival use.
However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.

[Jerry G.]

It has to do with the reflectivity of the CD media. The older players were
not too sensitive to the characteristics of the disks you would burn on your
own burner. Most of the newer players manufactured today are very sensitive
to be able to play the home burned CD's.

On some of the older models, it is possible to force them to play the home
burned CD disks, by going in there and doing a re-calibration of the
player's alignment. In part of this recalibration, on purpose, the laser
current may be able to be increased a bit. Specialized tools, training, and
the service manual would be necessary to do this type of work. If the laser
current is increased however, its life span will be shortened, because it
was not designed to work at the higher intensity.

I found that the blue reflective coloured media type CD disks were better
for recording music to be played on standard CD players. I did some as long
as 3 years ago, left them in the car all of the time (through winter and
summer), and they still work very well.

--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"Surinder Singh" > wrote in message
...
I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold CD-R it takes
20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be ready to play it
after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2 seconds for boom
to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better quality? I
would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would make the
former a better quality?

Thanks.

-s

[Mark D. Zacharias]

With VERY few exceptions, audio CD players do not calibrate laser power
automatically. Some are adjusted with physical potentiometers, some newer
ones do it in a service mode using eeproms, but once set, the laser
calibration is done.
Focus is adjusted dynamically while playing, and of course during the focus
search routine. Focus offset value is kept in memory until the next disc
read operation so that if the PLAY button is pressed again, it can spin
immediately without doing another focus search.


Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Surinder Singh" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold CD-R it
> takes
> > 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be ready to play
> it
> > after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2 seconds for
> boom
> > to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better quality? I
> > would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would make the
> > former a better quality?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the burn/no burn
> conditions.
> The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to correctly
> recognize these conditions.
> Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to recognize disks
with
> different reflectivities vary.
>
> Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD players to fail
to
> recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built into the
> calibration function.
>
> What you observe has more to do with the player than the disk.
> Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for archival use.
> However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
>
>

[Bruce J. Richman]

Robert Morein wrote:


>"Surinder Singh" > wrote in message
...
>> I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold CD-R it
>takes
>> 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be ready to play
>it
>> after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2 seconds for
>boom
>> to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better quality? I
>> would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would make the
>> former a better quality?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the burn/no burn
>conditions.
>The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to correctly
>recognize these conditions.
>Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to recognize disks with
>different reflectivities vary.
>
>Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD players to fail to
>recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built into the
>calibration function.
>
>What you observe has more to do with the player than the disk.

Bob - would the differences in CD player calibration that you describe be the
primary reason that, so I've been told by several, automobile CD players are
very much a gamble when using CD-R's?

As one who does a lot or home recordings from my LP/CD collection for use in a
"high-end' automobile audio system (Nakamichi, Audio Arts, MB Quart, Monster
Cable), I've avoided even considering an indash CD player and CD recording
essentially for that reason. I eoulfn't want to invest in a CD automobile
player which might or might not play CD-R's. Of course, as pointed out in the
other thread on "high-end" audiophile equipment, my automobile is the proud
posessor of a Nakamichi TD-1200 Mobile "Dragon" Cassette Deck/Head Unit
(installation was a chore, since this monster comes in 2 pieces - one just for
the electronics !) which is fed a steady diet of Maxell Metal C-90's encoded
with Dolby C and careful level settings recorded on a 3-head Nakamichi deck.
I've had these products for several years, and they are extremely rugged and
the performance is exceptional. :)







>Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for archival use.
>However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Bruce J. Richman

[ScottW]

"Bruce J. Richman" > wrote in message
...
>
> Bob - would the differences in CD player calibration that you describe be
the
> primary reason that, so I've been told by several, automobile CD players
are
> very much a gamble when using CD-R's?
>
> As one who does a lot or home recordings from my LP/CD collection for use
in a
> "high-end' automobile audio system (Nakamichi, Audio Arts, MB Quart,
Monster
> Cable), I've avoided even considering an indash CD player and CD
recording
> essentially for that reason. I eoulfn't want to invest in a CD
automobile
> player which might or might not play CD-R's.

I don't think that is an issue these days. My stock CD players
in both my Chevy and my Toyota have no problem playing CD-Rs.
Early in the days of CD-R burners, my first 4x burner that couldn't
reliably burn faster than 1x, I had some problems but not any more.
But just to be safe, take a CD-R to the dealer and try it.
I will point out that CD-Rs are a lot more sensitive to sunlight
than CDs. Leaving one on the dash will kill it in no time.

> Of course, as pointed out in the
> other thread on "high-end" audiophile equipment, my automobile is the
proud
> posessor of a Nakamichi TD-1200 Mobile "Dragon" Cassette Deck/Head Unit
> (installation was a chore, since this monster comes in 2 pieces - one
just for
> the electronics !) which is fed a steady diet of Maxell Metal C-90's
encoded
> with Dolby C and careful level settings recorded on a 3-head Nakamichi
deck.
> I've had these products for several years, and they are extremely rugged
and
> the performance is exceptional. :)

Did you ever look into dbx for cassette? Far superior to dolby IMO.

ScottW

[Geoff Wood]

Surinder Singh wrote:
> I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold CD-R it
> takes 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be
> ready to play it after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes
> only 2 seconds for boom to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that
> Memorex is better quality? I would have thought the gold coloration
> ;-) & Maxell name would make the former a better quality?


No. it means your boom-box is crap quality. I have a Philips one like that
too. It only ever plays CD-R up to about 5 minutes, if at all.


geoff

[Robert Morein]

Sorry, Mark, I can't agree.

The following tech sheet http://www.sanyo.com/semiconductors/news/Vol66.pdf
gives specs on the Sayn LA9251M, a common CD controller chip.
Among the features provided is
.. Automatic follower operation (tracking gain and track detection level)

Because lasers wear and output decays over time, calibration to the
reflected signal at a particular point in the life in the product is
essential.

This feature is frequently referred to as AGC, and has been implemented with
varying degrees of effectivenss in different players.

For example, every Sony player I own, back to 1991, is multi-read capable,
which means that it can read a CD-RW, which of all the available blanks
differs the greatest from a pressing.

Most other brands were, at least in the past, not nearly so good. It is
remarkable that Sony built multi-read into their products long before CD-RW
was in frequent use.

I have the service manual for all my players, and none of these older,
multiread capable units have either a calibration pot or a service mode.



"Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
...
> With VERY few exceptions, audio CD players do not calibrate laser power
> automatically. Some are adjusted with physical potentiometers, some newer
> ones do it in a service mode using eeproms, but once set, the laser
> calibration is done.
> Focus is adjusted dynamically while playing, and of course during the
focus
> search routine. Focus offset value is kept in memory until the next disc
> read operation so that if the PLAY button is pressed again, it can spin
> immediately without doing another focus search.
>
>
> Mark Z.
>
> --
> Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
>
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Surinder Singh" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold CD-R it
> > takes
> > > 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be ready to
play
> > it
> > > after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2 seconds for
> > boom
> > > to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better quality?
I
> > > would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would make
the
> > > former a better quality?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the burn/no burn
> > conditions.
> > The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to correctly
> > recognize these conditions.
> > Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to recognize disks
> with
> > different reflectivities vary.
> >
> > Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD players to
fail
> to
> > recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built into the
> > calibration function.
> >
> > What you observe has more to do with the player than the disk.
> > Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for archival
use.
> > However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
> >
> >
>
>

[Mark D. Zacharias]

I was talking CD-R, not RW, haven't tried those in the older Sony's but I
would be surprised. Lots of other units use the Sony pickups, and none of
them boost the laser power based on reflectivity - a constant current is
maintained as a voltage drop across a resistor, indicating a constant laser
diode current, regardless of reflected signal received back to the diode
pack. The APC (not ACG) transistor is mainly a switch, though as I say the
current is kept nearly constant.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry, Mark, I can't agree.
>
> The following tech sheet
http://www.sanyo.com/semiconductors/news/Vol66.pdf
> gives specs on the Sayn LA9251M, a common CD controller chip.
> Among the features provided is
> . Automatic follower operation (tracking gain and track detection level)
>
> Because lasers wear and output decays over time, calibration to the
> reflected signal at a particular point in the life in the product is
> essential.
>
> This feature is frequently referred to as AGC, and has been implemented
with
> varying degrees of effectivenss in different players.
>
> For example, every Sony player I own, back to 1991, is multi-read capable,
> which means that it can read a CD-RW, which of all the available blanks
> differs the greatest from a pressing.
>
> Most other brands were, at least in the past, not nearly so good. It is
> remarkable that Sony built multi-read into their products long before
CD-RW
> was in frequent use.
>
> I have the service manual for all my players, and none of these older,
> multiread capable units have either a calibration pot or a service mode.
>
>
>
> "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> ...
> > With VERY few exceptions, audio CD players do not calibrate laser power
> > automatically. Some are adjusted with physical potentiometers, some
newer
> > ones do it in a service mode using eeproms, but once set, the laser
> > calibration is done.
> > Focus is adjusted dynamically while playing, and of course during the
> focus
> > search routine. Focus offset value is kept in memory until the next
disc
> > read operation so that if the PLAY button is pressed again, it can spin
> > immediately without doing another focus search.
> >
> >
> > Mark Z.
> >
> > --
> > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> >
> >
> > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Surinder Singh" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold CD-R
it
> > > takes
> > > > 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be ready to
> play
> > > it
> > > > after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2 seconds
for
> > > boom
> > > > to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better
quality?
> I
> > > > would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would make
> the
> > > > former a better quality?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the burn/no burn
> > > conditions.
> > > The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to correctly
> > > recognize these conditions.
> > > Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to recognize
disks
> > with
> > > different reflectivities vary.
> > >
> > > Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD players to
> fail
> > to
> > > recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built into the
> > > calibration function.
> > >
> > > What you observe has more to do with the player than the disk.
> > > Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for archival
> use.
> > > However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Robert Morein]

"Bruce J. Richman" > wrote in message
...
> Robert Morein wrote:
>
>
> >"Surinder Singh" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold CD-R it
> >takes
> >> 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be ready to
play
> >it
> >> after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2 seconds for
> >boom
> >> to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better quality?
I
> >> would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would make the
> >> former a better quality?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the burn/no burn
> >conditions.
> >The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to correctly
> >recognize these conditions.
> >Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to recognize disks
with
> >different reflectivities vary.
> >
> >Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD players to fail
to
> >recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built into the
> >calibration function.
> >
> >What you observe has more to do with the player than the disk.
>
> Bob - would the differences in CD player calibration that you describe be
the
> primary reason that, so I've been told by several, automobile CD players
are
> very much a gamble when using CD-R's?

It's plausible.
My buddy Larry has had an enormous assortment of players over the years.
Many of these were high end offerings that typically incorporate either a
Sony, Philips, or Panasonic mechanism. The capability varies widely.

I have had stunning success with Sony mechanisms. Even Sony portables can
play many, but not all CD-R's.
I suspect that the same ability may be found in Sony car audio.
If I were you, I'd burn several different blanks and take them to a store
for trial:
1. Verbatim (blue)
2. Maxell (clear)
3. Kodak
4. CD-RW

My main concern about car CD changers is what I percieve as the tendency to
damage disks. If product availability weren't such a problem, I'd consider
Minidisc.

>
> As one who does a lot or home recordings from my LP/CD collection for use
in a
> "high-end' automobile audio system (Nakamichi, Audio Arts, MB Quart,
Monster
> Cable), I've avoided even considering an indash CD player and CD recording
> essentially for that reason. I eoulfn't want to invest in a CD automobile
> player which might or might not play CD-R's. Of course, as pointed out in
the
> other thread on "high-end" audiophile equipment, my automobile is the
proud
> posessor of a Nakamichi TD-1200 Mobile "Dragon" Cassette Deck/Head Unit
> (installation was a chore, since this monster comes in 2 pieces - one just
for
> the electronics !) which is fed a steady diet of Maxell Metal C-90's
encoded
> with Dolby C and careful level settings recorded on a 3-head Nakamichi
deck.
> I've had these products for several years, and they are extremely rugged
and
> the performance is exceptional. :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for archival
use.
> >However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Bruce J. Richman
>
>
>

[Markeau]

Robert Morein wrote:
> My main concern about car CD changers is what I percieve as the
> tendency to damage disks.

??? Since 97 I've been running two GM automobile 12 disc changers
almost continously, each with at least 8-10 cdr's and I've never had 1
cdr go bad.

[Joseph Oberlander]

Robert Morein wrote:

> Sorry, Mark, I can't agree.
>
> The following tech sheet http://www.sanyo.com/semiconductors/news/Vol66.pdf
> gives specs on the Sayn LA9251M, a common CD controller chip.
> Among the features provided is
> . Automatic follower operation (tracking gain and track detection level)
>
> Because lasers wear and output decays over time, calibration to the
> reflected signal at a particular point in the life in the product is
> essential.
>
> This feature is frequently referred to as AGC, and has been implemented with
> varying degrees of effectivenss in different players.
>
> For example, every Sony player I own, back to 1991, is multi-read capable,
> which means that it can read a CD-RW, which of all the available blanks
> differs the greatest from a pressing.
>
> Most other brands were, at least in the past, not nearly so good. It is
> remarkable that Sony built multi-read into their products long before CD-RW
> was in frequent use.

My Denon I had ten years ago (bought new about 1992, IIRC) had no
problems, either. It did have an "amplified" mode so that if the
disc was reading poorly, it would basically double the sensitivity.
Another way around the problem. Never ever had it fail to read
a CD-R of any type.

[Robert Morein]

"Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
...
> I was talking CD-R, not RW, haven't tried those in the older Sony's but I
> would be surprised. Lots of other units use the Sony pickups, and none of
> them boost the laser power based on reflectivity - a constant current is
> maintained as a voltage drop across a resistor, indicating a constant
laser
> diode current, regardless of reflected signal received back to the diode
> pack. The APC (not ACG) transistor is mainly a switch, though as I say the
> current is kept nearly constant.
>
> Mark Z.
>
I did not intend to imply that AGC is an adjustment of the laser diode.
It is an adjustment of the threshold detector.



> --
> Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
>
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Sorry, Mark, I can't agree.
> >
> > The following tech sheet
> http://www.sanyo.com/semiconductors/news/Vol66.pdf
> > gives specs on the Sayn LA9251M, a common CD controller chip.
> > Among the features provided is
> > . Automatic follower operation (tracking gain and track detection level)
> >
> > Because lasers wear and output decays over time, calibration to the
> > reflected signal at a particular point in the life in the product is
> > essential.
> >
> > This feature is frequently referred to as AGC, and has been implemented
> with
> > varying degrees of effectivenss in different players.
> >
> > For example, every Sony player I own, back to 1991, is multi-read
capable,
> > which means that it can read a CD-RW, which of all the available blanks
> > differs the greatest from a pressing.
> >
> > Most other brands were, at least in the past, not nearly so good. It is
> > remarkable that Sony built multi-read into their products long before
> CD-RW
> > was in frequent use.
> >
> > I have the service manual for all my players, and none of these older,
> > multiread capable units have either a calibration pot or a service mode.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > With VERY few exceptions, audio CD players do not calibrate laser
power
> > > automatically. Some are adjusted with physical potentiometers, some
> newer
> > > ones do it in a service mode using eeproms, but once set, the laser
> > > calibration is done.
> > > Focus is adjusted dynamically while playing, and of course during the
> > focus
> > > search routine. Focus offset value is kept in memory until the next
> disc
> > > read operation so that if the PLAY button is pressed again, it can
spin
> > > immediately without doing another focus search.
> > >
> > >
> > > Mark Z.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and
spam
> > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Surinder Singh" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold CD-R
> it
> > > > takes
> > > > > 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be ready
to
> > play
> > > > it
> > > > > after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2 seconds
> for
> > > > boom
> > > > > to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better
> quality?
> > I
> > > > > would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would
make
> > the
> > > > > former a better quality?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the burn/no
burn
> > > > conditions.
> > > > The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to
correctly
> > > > recognize these conditions.
> > > > Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to recognize
> disks
> > > with
> > > > different reflectivities vary.
> > > >
> > > > Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD players to
> > fail
> > > to
> > > > recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built into the
> > > > calibration function.
> > > >
> > > > What you observe has more to do with the player than the disk.
> > > > Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for
archival
> > use.
> > > > However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Mark D. Zacharias]

And yet the laser power is not calibrated according to any disc
reflectivity, merely to provide a constant laser current, which is virtually
the same regardless of whether any laser light returns from the disc at all.

In a multi-read model, which I will admit I have not studied, this may be
different. Your old Sony however, isn't multi-read in the same sense as a
modern CD-ROM device. It may just have the laser power turned up somewhat.

The only unit I have seen which calibrated the laser output on playback was
a karaoke model - unknown Chinese vendor. Viewing the HF pattern on a 'scope
one could observe the laser "eye pattern" ramping up depending on the disc
type. Your Sony does not do this.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I was talking CD-R, not RW, haven't tried those in the older Sony's but
I
> > would be surprised. Lots of other units use the Sony pickups, and none
of
> > them boost the laser power based on reflectivity - a constant current is
> > maintained as a voltage drop across a resistor, indicating a constant
> laser
> > diode current, regardless of reflected signal received back to the diode
> > pack. The APC (not ACG) transistor is mainly a switch, though as I say
the
> > current is kept nearly constant.
> >
> > Mark Z.
> >
> I did not intend to imply that AGC is an adjustment of the laser diode.
> It is an adjustment of the threshold detector.
>
>
>
> > --
> > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> >
> >
> > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Sorry, Mark, I can't agree.
> > >
> > > The following tech sheet
> > http://www.sanyo.com/semiconductors/news/Vol66.pdf
> > > gives specs on the Sayn LA9251M, a common CD controller chip.
> > > Among the features provided is
> > > . Automatic follower operation (tracking gain and track detection
level)
> > >
> > > Because lasers wear and output decays over time, calibration to the
> > > reflected signal at a particular point in the life in the product is
> > > essential.
> > >
> > > This feature is frequently referred to as AGC, and has been
implemented
> > with
> > > varying degrees of effectivenss in different players.
> > >
> > > For example, every Sony player I own, back to 1991, is multi-read
> capable,
> > > which means that it can read a CD-RW, which of all the available
blanks
> > > differs the greatest from a pressing.
> > >
> > > Most other brands were, at least in the past, not nearly so good. It
is
> > > remarkable that Sony built multi-read into their products long before
> > CD-RW
> > > was in frequent use.
> > >
> > > I have the service manual for all my players, and none of these older,
> > > multiread capable units have either a calibration pot or a service
mode.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > With VERY few exceptions, audio CD players do not calibrate laser
> power
> > > > automatically. Some are adjusted with physical potentiometers, some
> > newer
> > > > ones do it in a service mode using eeproms, but once set, the laser
> > > > calibration is done.
> > > > Focus is adjusted dynamically while playing, and of course during
the
> > > focus
> > > > search routine. Focus offset value is kept in memory until the next
> > disc
> > > > read operation so that if the PLAY button is pressed again, it can
> spin
> > > > immediately without doing another focus search.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mark Z.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and
> spam
> > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Surinder Singh" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold
CD-R
> > it
> > > > > takes
> > > > > > 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be ready
> to
> > > play
> > > > > it
> > > > > > after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2
seconds
> > for
> > > > > boom
> > > > > > to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better
> > quality?
> > > I
> > > > > > would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would
> make
> > > the
> > > > > > former a better quality?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the burn/no
> burn
> > > > > conditions.
> > > > > The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to
> correctly
> > > > > recognize these conditions.
> > > > > Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to recognize
> > disks
> > > > with
> > > > > different reflectivities vary.
> > > > >
> > > > > Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD players
to
> > > fail
> > > > to
> > > > > recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built into
the
> > > > > calibration function.
> > > > >
> > > > > What you observe has more to do with the player than the disk.
> > > > > Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for
> archival
> > > use.
> > > > > However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Arny Krueger]

"Bruce J. Richman" > wrote in message


> As one who does a lot or home recordings from my LP/CD collection for
> use in a "high-end' automobile audio system (Nakamichi, Audio Arts,
> MB Quart, Monster Cable), I've avoided even considering an indash CD
> player and CD recording essentially for that reason. I eoulfn't want
> to invest in a CD automobile player which might or might not play
> CD-R's.

Thanks Richman for admitting that your luddite attitudes about home audio
have infested your car.

It's obvious that fear of change and hatred of new technology dominate your
decision-making process.

[Robert Morein]

Please read my post again.
I said that AGC is a threshold detector function. It has nothing to do with
laser diode power calibration.
Sony players do nothing special with the laser diode. The AGC function
provides variable threshold detection, which is what gives it the ability to
read Orange Book.


"Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
...
> And yet the laser power is not calibrated according to any disc
> reflectivity, merely to provide a constant laser current, which is
virtually
> the same regardless of whether any laser light returns from the disc at
all.
>
> In a multi-read model, which I will admit I have not studied, this may be
> different. Your old Sony however, isn't multi-read in the same sense as a
> modern CD-ROM device. It may just have the laser power turned up somewhat.
>
> The only unit I have seen which calibrated the laser output on playback
was
> a karaoke model - unknown Chinese vendor. Viewing the HF pattern on a
'scope
> one could observe the laser "eye pattern" ramping up depending on the disc
> type. Your Sony does not do this.
>
> Mark Z.
>
> --
> Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
>
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I was talking CD-R, not RW, haven't tried those in the older Sony's
but
> I
> > > would be surprised. Lots of other units use the Sony pickups, and none
> of
> > > them boost the laser power based on reflectivity - a constant current
is
> > > maintained as a voltage drop across a resistor, indicating a constant
> > laser
> > > diode current, regardless of reflected signal received back to the
diode
> > > pack. The APC (not ACG) transistor is mainly a switch, though as I say
> the
> > > current is kept nearly constant.
> > >
> > > Mark Z.
> > >
> > I did not intend to imply that AGC is an adjustment of the laser diode.
> > It is an adjustment of the threshold detector.
> >
> >
> >
> > > --
> > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and
spam
> > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Sorry, Mark, I can't agree.
> > > >
> > > > The following tech sheet
> > > http://www.sanyo.com/semiconductors/news/Vol66.pdf
> > > > gives specs on the Sayn LA9251M, a common CD controller chip.
> > > > Among the features provided is
> > > > . Automatic follower operation (tracking gain and track detection
> level)
> > > >
> > > > Because lasers wear and output decays over time, calibration to the
> > > > reflected signal at a particular point in the life in the product is
> > > > essential.
> > > >
> > > > This feature is frequently referred to as AGC, and has been
> implemented
> > > with
> > > > varying degrees of effectivenss in different players.
> > > >
> > > > For example, every Sony player I own, back to 1991, is multi-read
> > capable,
> > > > which means that it can read a CD-RW, which of all the available
> blanks
> > > > differs the greatest from a pressing.
> > > >
> > > > Most other brands were, at least in the past, not nearly so good. It
> is
> > > > remarkable that Sony built multi-read into their products long
before
> > > CD-RW
> > > > was in frequent use.
> > > >
> > > > I have the service manual for all my players, and none of these
older,
> > > > multiread capable units have either a calibration pot or a service
> mode.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > With VERY few exceptions, audio CD players do not calibrate laser
> > power
> > > > > automatically. Some are adjusted with physical potentiometers,
some
> > > newer
> > > > > ones do it in a service mode using eeproms, but once set, the
laser
> > > > > calibration is done.
> > > > > Focus is adjusted dynamically while playing, and of course during
> the
> > > > focus
> > > > > search routine. Focus offset value is kept in memory until the
next
> > > disc
> > > > > read operation so that if the PLAY button is pressed again, it can
> > spin
> > > > > immediately without doing another focus search.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark Z.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses
and
> > spam
> > > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Surinder Singh" > wrote in message
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell Gold
> CD-R
> > > it
> > > > > > takes
> > > > > > > 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be
ready
> > to
> > > > play
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2
> seconds
> > > for
> > > > > > boom
> > > > > > > to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is better
> > > quality?
> > > > I
> > > > > > > would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name would
> > make
> > > > the
> > > > > > > former a better quality?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the burn/no
> > burn
> > > > > > conditions.
> > > > > > The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to
> > correctly
> > > > > > recognize these conditions.
> > > > > > Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to
recognize
> > > disks
> > > > > with
> > > > > > different reflectivities vary.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD
players
> to
> > > > fail
> > > > > to
> > > > > > recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built into
> the
> > > > > > calibration function.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What you observe has more to do with the player than the disk.
> > > > > > Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for
> > archival
> > > > use.
> > > > > > However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Mark D. Zacharias]

I think we're at cross purposes. Red Book doesn't define CD-RW as opposed to
CD-R, does it?

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
> Please read my post again.
> I said that AGC is a threshold detector function. It has nothing to do
with
> laser diode power calibration.
> Sony players do nothing special with the laser diode. The AGC function
> provides variable threshold detection, which is what gives it the ability
to
> read Orange Book.
>
>
> "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> ...
> > And yet the laser power is not calibrated according to any disc
> > reflectivity, merely to provide a constant laser current, which is
> virtually
> > the same regardless of whether any laser light returns from the disc at
> all.
> >
> > In a multi-read model, which I will admit I have not studied, this may
be
> > different. Your old Sony however, isn't multi-read in the same sense as
a
> > modern CD-ROM device. It may just have the laser power turned up
somewhat.
> >
> > The only unit I have seen which calibrated the laser output on playback
> was
> > a karaoke model - unknown Chinese vendor. Viewing the HF pattern on a
> 'scope
> > one could observe the laser "eye pattern" ramping up depending on the
disc
> > type. Your Sony does not do this.
> >
> > Mark Z.
> >
> > --
> > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> >
> >
> > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > I was talking CD-R, not RW, haven't tried those in the older Sony's
> but
> > I
> > > > would be surprised. Lots of other units use the Sony pickups, and
none
> > of
> > > > them boost the laser power based on reflectivity - a constant
current
> is
> > > > maintained as a voltage drop across a resistor, indicating a
constant
> > > laser
> > > > diode current, regardless of reflected signal received back to the
> diode
> > > > pack. The APC (not ACG) transistor is mainly a switch, though as I
say
> > the
> > > > current is kept nearly constant.
> > > >
> > > > Mark Z.
> > > >
> > > I did not intend to imply that AGC is an adjustment of the laser
diode.
> > > It is an adjustment of the threshold detector.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > --
> > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and
> spam
> > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Sorry, Mark, I can't agree.
> > > > >
> > > > > The following tech sheet
> > > > http://www.sanyo.com/semiconductors/news/Vol66.pdf
> > > > > gives specs on the Sayn LA9251M, a common CD controller chip.
> > > > > Among the features provided is
> > > > > . Automatic follower operation (tracking gain and track detection
> > level)
> > > > >
> > > > > Because lasers wear and output decays over time, calibration to
the
> > > > > reflected signal at a particular point in the life in the product
is
> > > > > essential.
> > > > >
> > > > > This feature is frequently referred to as AGC, and has been
> > implemented
> > > > with
> > > > > varying degrees of effectivenss in different players.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, every Sony player I own, back to 1991, is multi-read
> > > capable,
> > > > > which means that it can read a CD-RW, which of all the available
> > blanks
> > > > > differs the greatest from a pressing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Most other brands were, at least in the past, not nearly so good.
It
> > is
> > > > > remarkable that Sony built multi-read into their products long
> before
> > > > CD-RW
> > > > > was in frequent use.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have the service manual for all my players, and none of these
> older,
> > > > > multiread capable units have either a calibration pot or a service
> > mode.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > With VERY few exceptions, audio CD players do not calibrate
laser
> > > power
> > > > > > automatically. Some are adjusted with physical potentiometers,
> some
> > > > newer
> > > > > > ones do it in a service mode using eeproms, but once set, the
> laser
> > > > > > calibration is done.
> > > > > > Focus is adjusted dynamically while playing, and of course
during
> > the
> > > > > focus
> > > > > > search routine. Focus offset value is kept in memory until the
> next
> > > > disc
> > > > > > read operation so that if the PLAY button is pressed again, it
can
> > > spin
> > > > > > immediately without doing another focus search.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark Z.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses
> and
> > > spam
> > > > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Surinder Singh" > wrote in
message
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell
Gold
> > CD-R
> > > > it
> > > > > > > takes
> > > > > > > > 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be
> ready
> > > to
> > > > > play
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2
> > seconds
> > > > for
> > > > > > > boom
> > > > > > > > to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is
better
> > > > quality?
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name
would
> > > make
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > former a better quality?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the
burn/no
> > > burn
> > > > > > > conditions.
> > > > > > > The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to
> > > correctly
> > > > > > > recognize these conditions.
> > > > > > > Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to
> recognize
> > > > disks
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > different reflectivities vary.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD
> players
> > to
> > > > > fail
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built
into
> > the
> > > > > > > calibration function.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What you observe has more to do with the player than the disk.
> > > > > > > Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for
> > > archival
> > > > > use.
> > > > > > > However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Robert Morein]

I believe CD-RW is Orange Book.

"Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
...
> I think we're at cross purposes. Red Book doesn't define CD-RW as opposed
to
> CD-R, does it?
>
> Mark Z.
>
> --
> Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
>
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Please read my post again.
> > I said that AGC is a threshold detector function. It has nothing to do
> with
> > laser diode power calibration.
> > Sony players do nothing special with the laser diode. The AGC function
> > provides variable threshold detection, which is what gives it the
ability
> to
> > read Orange Book.
> >
> >
> > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > And yet the laser power is not calibrated according to any disc
> > > reflectivity, merely to provide a constant laser current, which is
> > virtually
> > > the same regardless of whether any laser light returns from the disc
at
> > all.
> > >
> > > In a multi-read model, which I will admit I have not studied, this may
> be
> > > different. Your old Sony however, isn't multi-read in the same sense
as
> a
> > > modern CD-ROM device. It may just have the laser power turned up
> somewhat.
> > >
> > > The only unit I have seen which calibrated the laser output on
playback
> > was
> > > a karaoke model - unknown Chinese vendor. Viewing the HF pattern on a
> > 'scope
> > > one could observe the laser "eye pattern" ramping up depending on the
> disc
> > > type. Your Sony does not do this.
> > >
> > > Mark Z.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and
spam
> > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > I was talking CD-R, not RW, haven't tried those in the older
Sony's
> > but
> > > I
> > > > > would be surprised. Lots of other units use the Sony pickups, and
> none
> > > of
> > > > > them boost the laser power based on reflectivity - a constant
> current
> > is
> > > > > maintained as a voltage drop across a resistor, indicating a
> constant
> > > > laser
> > > > > diode current, regardless of reflected signal received back to the
> > diode
> > > > > pack. The APC (not ACG) transistor is mainly a switch, though as I
> say
> > > the
> > > > > current is kept nearly constant.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark Z.
> > > > >
> > > > I did not intend to imply that AGC is an adjustment of the laser
> diode.
> > > > It is an adjustment of the threshold detector.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses
and
> > spam
> > > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > Sorry, Mark, I can't agree.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The following tech sheet
> > > > > http://www.sanyo.com/semiconductors/news/Vol66.pdf
> > > > > > gives specs on the Sayn LA9251M, a common CD controller chip.
> > > > > > Among the features provided is
> > > > > > . Automatic follower operation (tracking gain and track
detection
> > > level)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Because lasers wear and output decays over time, calibration to
> the
> > > > > > reflected signal at a particular point in the life in the
product
> is
> > > > > > essential.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This feature is frequently referred to as AGC, and has been
> > > implemented
> > > > > with
> > > > > > varying degrees of effectivenss in different players.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For example, every Sony player I own, back to 1991, is
multi-read
> > > > capable,
> > > > > > which means that it can read a CD-RW, which of all the available
> > > blanks
> > > > > > differs the greatest from a pressing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most other brands were, at least in the past, not nearly so
good.
> It
> > > is
> > > > > > remarkable that Sony built multi-read into their products long
> > before
> > > > > CD-RW
> > > > > > was in frequent use.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have the service manual for all my players, and none of these
> > older,
> > > > > > multiread capable units have either a calibration pot or a
service
> > > mode.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > With VERY few exceptions, audio CD players do not calibrate
> laser
> > > > power
> > > > > > > automatically. Some are adjusted with physical potentiometers,
> > some
> > > > > newer
> > > > > > > ones do it in a service mode using eeproms, but once set, the
> > laser
> > > > > > > calibration is done.
> > > > > > > Focus is adjusted dynamically while playing, and of course
> during
> > > the
> > > > > > focus
> > > > > > > search routine. Focus offset value is kept in memory until
the
> > next
> > > > > disc
> > > > > > > read operation so that if the PLAY button is pressed again, it
> can
> > > > spin
> > > > > > > immediately without doing another focus search.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mark Z.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary.
Viruses
> > and
> > > > spam
> > > > > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Surinder Singh" > wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell
> Gold
> > > CD-R
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > takes
> > > > > > > > > 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and be
> > ready
> > > > to
> > > > > > play
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only 2
> > > seconds
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > boom
> > > > > > > > > to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is
> better
> > > > > quality?
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name
> would
> > > > make
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > former a better quality?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the
> burn/no
> > > > burn
> > > > > > > > conditions.
> > > > > > > > The CD player has a calibration function that enables it to
> > > > correctly
> > > > > > > > recognize these conditions.
> > > > > > > > Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to
> > recognize
> > > > > disks
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > different reflectivities vary.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD
> > players
> > > to
> > > > > > fail
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built
> into
> > > the
> > > > > > > > calibration function.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What you observe has more to do with the player than the
disk.
> > > > > > > > Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage for
> > > > archival
> > > > > > use.
> > > > > > > > However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Mark D. Zacharias]

Well, if we're interested in continuing this mini-thread, if you don't mind,
let me just ask this, based on my recollection of an earlier post - does
your old Sony read CD-RW discs, as opposed to CD-R discs?

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
> I believe CD-RW is Orange Book.
>
> "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I think we're at cross purposes. Red Book doesn't define CD-RW as
opposed
> to
> > CD-R, does it?
> >
> > Mark Z.
> >
> > --
> > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> >
> >
> > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Please read my post again.
> > > I said that AGC is a threshold detector function. It has nothing to do
> > with
> > > laser diode power calibration.
> > > Sony players do nothing special with the laser diode. The AGC function
> > > provides variable threshold detection, which is what gives it the
> ability
> > to
> > > read Orange Book.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > And yet the laser power is not calibrated according to any disc
> > > > reflectivity, merely to provide a constant laser current, which is
> > > virtually
> > > > the same regardless of whether any laser light returns from the disc
> at
> > > all.
> > > >
> > > > In a multi-read model, which I will admit I have not studied, this
may
> > be
> > > > different. Your old Sony however, isn't multi-read in the same sense
> as
> > a
> > > > modern CD-ROM device. It may just have the laser power turned up
> > somewhat.
> > > >
> > > > The only unit I have seen which calibrated the laser output on
> playback
> > > was
> > > > a karaoke model - unknown Chinese vendor. Viewing the HF pattern on
a
> > > 'scope
> > > > one could observe the laser "eye pattern" ramping up depending on
the
> > disc
> > > > type. Your Sony does not do this.
> > > >
> > > > Mark Z.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and
> spam
> > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > I was talking CD-R, not RW, haven't tried those in the older
> Sony's
> > > but
> > > > I
> > > > > > would be surprised. Lots of other units use the Sony pickups,
and
> > none
> > > > of
> > > > > > them boost the laser power based on reflectivity - a constant
> > current
> > > is
> > > > > > maintained as a voltage drop across a resistor, indicating a
> > constant
> > > > > laser
> > > > > > diode current, regardless of reflected signal received back to
the
> > > diode
> > > > > > pack. The APC (not ACG) transistor is mainly a switch, though as
I
> > say
> > > > the
> > > > > > current is kept nearly constant.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark Z.
> > > > > >
> > > > > I did not intend to imply that AGC is an adjustment of the laser
> > diode.
> > > > > It is an adjustment of the threshold detector.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses
> and
> > > spam
> > > > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > Sorry, Mark, I can't agree.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The following tech sheet
> > > > > > http://www.sanyo.com/semiconductors/news/Vol66.pdf
> > > > > > > gives specs on the Sayn LA9251M, a common CD controller chip.
> > > > > > > Among the features provided is
> > > > > > > . Automatic follower operation (tracking gain and track
> detection
> > > > level)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Because lasers wear and output decays over time, calibration
to
> > the
> > > > > > > reflected signal at a particular point in the life in the
> product
> > is
> > > > > > > essential.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This feature is frequently referred to as AGC, and has been
> > > > implemented
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > varying degrees of effectivenss in different players.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For example, every Sony player I own, back to 1991, is
> multi-read
> > > > > capable,
> > > > > > > which means that it can read a CD-RW, which of all the
available
> > > > blanks
> > > > > > > differs the greatest from a pressing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Most other brands were, at least in the past, not nearly so
> good.
> > It
> > > > is
> > > > > > > remarkable that Sony built multi-read into their products long
> > > before
> > > > > > CD-RW
> > > > > > > was in frequent use.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have the service manual for all my players, and none of
these
> > > older,
> > > > > > > multiread capable units have either a calibration pot or a
> service
> > > > mode.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > With VERY few exceptions, audio CD players do not calibrate
> > laser
> > > > > power
> > > > > > > > automatically. Some are adjusted with physical
potentiometers,
> > > some
> > > > > > newer
> > > > > > > > ones do it in a service mode using eeproms, but once set,
the
> > > laser
> > > > > > > > calibration is done.
> > > > > > > > Focus is adjusted dynamically while playing, and of course
> > during
> > > > the
> > > > > > > focus
> > > > > > > > search routine. Focus offset value is kept in memory until
> the
> > > next
> > > > > > disc
> > > > > > > > read operation so that if the PLAY button is pressed again,
it
> > can
> > > > > spin
> > > > > > > > immediately without doing another focus search.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mark Z.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary.
> Viruses
> > > and
> > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Surinder Singh" > wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > > I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I Maxell
> > Gold
> > > > CD-R
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > takes
> > > > > > > > > > 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks and
be
> > > ready
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > play
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes only
2
> > > > seconds
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > boom
> > > > > > > > > > to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is
> > better
> > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell name
> > would
> > > > > make
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > former a better quality?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the
> > burn/no
> > > > > burn
> > > > > > > > > conditions.
> > > > > > > > > The CD player has a calibration function that enables it
to
> > > > > correctly
> > > > > > > > > recognize these conditions.
> > > > > > > > > Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to
> > > recognize
> > > > > > disks
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > different reflectivities vary.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of CD
> > > players
> > > > to
> > > > > > > fail
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been built
> > into
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > calibration function.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What you observe has more to do with the player than the
> disk.
> > > > > > > > > Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage
for
> > > > > archival
> > > > > > > use.
> > > > > > > > > However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Robert Morein]

Yes, I have the following players that play CD-RW:
qty. 2 of CDP-202ES
qty. 1 of CDP-229ES


"Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
...
> Well, if we're interested in continuing this mini-thread, if you don't
mind,
> let me just ask this, based on my recollection of an earlier post - does
> your old Sony read CD-RW discs, as opposed to CD-R discs?
>
> Mark Z.
>
> --
> Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
>
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I believe CD-RW is Orange Book.
> >
> > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I think we're at cross purposes. Red Book doesn't define CD-RW as
> opposed
> > to
> > > CD-R, does it?
> > >
> > > Mark Z.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and
spam
> > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Please read my post again.
> > > > I said that AGC is a threshold detector function. It has nothing to
do
> > > with
> > > > laser diode power calibration.
> > > > Sony players do nothing special with the laser diode. The AGC
function
> > > > provides variable threshold detection, which is what gives it the
> > ability
> > > to
> > > > read Orange Book.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > And yet the laser power is not calibrated according to any disc
> > > > > reflectivity, merely to provide a constant laser current, which is
> > > > virtually
> > > > > the same regardless of whether any laser light returns from the
disc
> > at
> > > > all.
> > > > >
> > > > > In a multi-read model, which I will admit I have not studied, this
> may
> > > be
> > > > > different. Your old Sony however, isn't multi-read in the same
sense
> > as
> > > a
> > > > > modern CD-ROM device. It may just have the laser power turned up
> > > somewhat.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only unit I have seen which calibrated the laser output on
> > playback
> > > > was
> > > > > a karaoke model - unknown Chinese vendor. Viewing the HF pattern
on
> a
> > > > 'scope
> > > > > one could observe the laser "eye pattern" ramping up depending on
> the
> > > disc
> > > > > type. Your Sony does not do this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark Z.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses
and
> > spam
> > > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > I was talking CD-R, not RW, haven't tried those in the older
> > Sony's
> > > > but
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > would be surprised. Lots of other units use the Sony pickups,
> and
> > > none
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > them boost the laser power based on reflectivity - a constant
> > > current
> > > > is
> > > > > > > maintained as a voltage drop across a resistor, indicating a
> > > constant
> > > > > > laser
> > > > > > > diode current, regardless of reflected signal received back to
> the
> > > > diode
> > > > > > > pack. The APC (not ACG) transistor is mainly a switch, though
as
> I
> > > say
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > current is kept nearly constant.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mark Z.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I did not intend to imply that AGC is an adjustment of the laser
> > > diode.
> > > > > > It is an adjustment of the threshold detector.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary.
Viruses
> > and
> > > > spam
> > > > > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > Sorry, Mark, I can't agree.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The following tech sheet
> > > > > > > http://www.sanyo.com/semiconductors/news/Vol66.pdf
> > > > > > > > gives specs on the Sayn LA9251M, a common CD controller
chip.
> > > > > > > > Among the features provided is
> > > > > > > > . Automatic follower operation (tracking gain and track
> > detection
> > > > > level)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Because lasers wear and output decays over time, calibration
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > > > reflected signal at a particular point in the life in the
> > product
> > > is
> > > > > > > > essential.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This feature is frequently referred to as AGC, and has been
> > > > > implemented
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > varying degrees of effectivenss in different players.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For example, every Sony player I own, back to 1991, is
> > multi-read
> > > > > > capable,
> > > > > > > > which means that it can read a CD-RW, which of all the
> available
> > > > > blanks
> > > > > > > > differs the greatest from a pressing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Most other brands were, at least in the past, not nearly so
> > good.
> > > It
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > remarkable that Sony built multi-read into their products
long
> > > > before
> > > > > > > CD-RW
> > > > > > > > was in frequent use.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have the service manual for all my players, and none of
> these
> > > > older,
> > > > > > > > multiread capable units have either a calibration pot or a
> > service
> > > > > mode.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mark D. Zacharias" > wrote in message
> > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > With VERY few exceptions, audio CD players do not
calibrate
> > > laser
> > > > > > power
> > > > > > > > > automatically. Some are adjusted with physical
> potentiometers,
> > > > some
> > > > > > > newer
> > > > > > > > > ones do it in a service mode using eeproms, but once set,
> the
> > > > laser
> > > > > > > > > calibration is done.
> > > > > > > > > Focus is adjusted dynamically while playing, and of course
> > > during
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > focus
> > > > > > > > > search routine. Focus offset value is kept in memory
until
> > the
> > > > next
> > > > > > > disc
> > > > > > > > > read operation so that if the PLAY button is pressed
again,
> it
> > > can
> > > > > > spin
> > > > > > > > > immediately without doing another focus search.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mark Z.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary.
> > Viruses
> > > > and
> > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Surinder Singh" > wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > > > I play the CD's I burn in Phillipps Boombox. If I
Maxell
> > > Gold
> > > > > CD-R
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > takes
> > > > > > > > > > > 20 seconds for the boom box to recognize the tracks
and
> be
> > > > ready
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > play
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > after inserting the CD. With Memorex 52x, it takes
only
> 2
> > > > > seconds
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > boom
> > > > > > > > > > > to recognize the tracks. Does it mean that Memorex is
> > > better
> > > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > would have thought the gold coloration ;-) & Maxell
name
> > > would
> > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > former a better quality?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Different CD disks have different reflectivities for the
> > > burn/no
> > > > > > burn
> > > > > > > > > > conditions.
> > > > > > > > > > The CD player has a calibration function that enables it
> to
> > > > > > correctly
> > > > > > > > > > recognize these conditions.
> > > > > > > > > > Depending upon the design of the player, the ability to
> > > > recognize
> > > > > > > disks
> > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > different reflectivities vary.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Only a few years ago, it was common for many brands of
CD
> > > > players
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > fail
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > recognize CD-Rs, because insufficient range had been
built
> > > into
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > calibration function.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What you observe has more to do with the player than the
> > disk.
> > > > > > > > > > Gold as a reflective material has a signficant advantage
> for
> > > > > > archival
> > > > > > > > use.
> > > > > > > > > > However, it is somewhat less reflective than aluminum.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Codifus]

Mark D. Zacharias wrote:

> Well, if we're interested in continuing this mini-thread, if you don't mind,
> let me just ask this, based on my recollection of an earlier post - does
> your old Sony read CD-RW discs, as opposed to CD-R discs?
>
> Mark Z.
>
If your CD player can read a CDRW, then it's got quite strong laser
beam. CDRW are the hardest to read, then come CDRs, then the regular
audio CDs you buy at places like Tower Records. From my experience with
CDRWs, they are significantly harder to read than CDRs when you go from
player to player. If I make a CD, I want to know that it will play in a
CD boombox, my car stereo, my home player, etc, without difficulty. With
CDRWs, usually one of those items misses. Couple that with the fact that
they take longer to burn and cost more when compared to CDRs, I gave up
on CDRWs. I just burn CDRs as tests. Cost per CDR is cheaper than even a
TDK D90 normal cassette, so no biggie.

CD

[WorldJAZZ]

"Codifus" > wrote in message
et...
> Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
>
> > Well, if we're interested in continuing this mini-thread, if you don't
mind,
> > let me just ask this, based on my recollection of an earlier post - does
> > your old Sony read CD-RW discs, as opposed to CD-R discs?
> >
> > Mark Z.
> >
> If your CD player can read a CDRW, then it's got quite strong laser
> beam.

It is not a question of beam strength.
Photodetectors can be incredibly sensitive, far more than required to sense
the reflection from a CD of any type.

The problem for the designer is to determine what level of reflectivity is
equivalent to a transition, and what level is the base reflectivity level.

This requires what is commonly referred to as an AGC circuit, though it may
go by different names. It determines the threshold that applies to the
particular disk.

Although this is a simple circuit, designers originally made AGC circuits
that could accomodate the range of various CD pressings. As the available
types of media diversified, AGC circuits were required to function over a
wider range.

Exhibiting an unusual degree of foresight, Sony CD players were equipped
with AGC circuits capable of handling media that would not be in common use
for years. Other manufacturers, particularly Panasonic, lagged developments
in media.

[Mark D. Zacharias]

I need to give this a try on some old Sonys.

mz

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"WorldJAZZ" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Codifus" > wrote in message
> et...
> > Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
> >
> > > Well, if we're interested in continuing this mini-thread, if you don't
> mind,
> > > let me just ask this, based on my recollection of an earlier post -
does
> > > your old Sony read CD-RW discs, as opposed to CD-R discs?
> > >
> > > Mark Z.
> > >
> > If your CD player can read a CDRW, then it's got quite strong laser
> > beam.
>
> It is not a question of beam strength.
> Photodetectors can be incredibly sensitive, far more than required to
sense
> the reflection from a CD of any type.
>
> The problem for the designer is to determine what level of reflectivity is
> equivalent to a transition, and what level is the base reflectivity level.
>
> This requires what is commonly referred to as an AGC circuit, though it
may
> go by different names. It determines the threshold that applies to the
> particular disk.
>
> Although this is a simple circuit, designers originally made AGC circuits
> that could accomodate the range of various CD pressings. As the available
> types of media diversified, AGC circuits were required to function over a
> wider range.
>
> Exhibiting an unusual degree of foresight, Sony CD players were equipped
> with AGC circuits capable of handling media that would not be in common
use
> for years. Other manufacturers, particularly Panasonic, lagged
developments
> in media.
>
>

[Codifus]

WorldJAZZ wrote:

> "Codifus" > wrote in message
> et...
>
>>Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Well, if we're interested in continuing this mini-thread, if you don't
>
> mind,
>
>>>let me just ask this, based on my recollection of an earlier post - does
>>>your old Sony read CD-RW discs, as opposed to CD-R discs?
>>>
>>>Mark Z.
>>>
>>
>>If your CD player can read a CDRW, then it's got quite strong laser
>>beam.
>
>
> It is not a question of beam strength.
> Photodetectors can be incredibly sensitive, far more than required to sense
> the reflection from a CD of any type.
>
> The problem for the designer is to determine what level of reflectivity is
> equivalent to a transition, and what level is the base reflectivity level.
>
> This requires what is commonly referred to as an AGC circuit, though it may
> go by different names. It determines the threshold that applies to the
> particular disk.
>
> Although this is a simple circuit, designers originally made AGC circuits
> that could accomodate the range of various CD pressings. As the available
> types of media diversified, AGC circuits were required to function over a
> wider range.
>
> Exhibiting an unusual degree of foresight, Sony CD players were equipped
> with AGC circuits capable of handling media that would not be in common use
> for years. Other manufacturers, particularly Panasonic, lagged developments
> in media.
>
>
Nice. I wish my old Sony player was still functional. It would have been
nice to try out a CDRW on it. Anyhow, since CDRWs are still the most
finicky, these well adjusted AGC cicuits could only benefit someone who
buys all Sony CD players, one in their car, home, walkman, etc.

CD