Exile and other "non-internet" brands

[FaxMeBeer]

I've had two customers ask me about Exile's products, and couldn't do
anything for them because Exile doesn't allow internet sales. This is
something that all of you who are interested in their products should
know, and let Exile know that you don't like that policy.

Why wouldn't Exile want their products listed online? One reason is
that they want to protect their brand identity. They don't want to get
tied in with some fly-by-night outfit who will give Exile a bad name;
that's understandable.

The other reasons aren't so altruistic. One reason is that they don't
want online retailers competing with their brick-and-mortor retailers
because they want to maintain a certain price point. In other words,
they want to manipulate the market and engage in price fixing. They
sell this idea to you, the consumer, as a protection against buying
knock-off products but that's a joke. Most people don't know who Exile
is, there would be no benefit to making knock-offs in the first place.
If someone was interested in creating knock offs of something, they'd
go very high end, and knock off a brand that has some recognition in
the market. They also ensure you that by purchasing from non-online
ratailers, you preserve your factory warranty; of course, it's only by
a decision that Exile has made in order to manipulate the market price
of their products in collusion with their retailers.

Other manufacturers are allowing online companies to offer their
products. Good brands, that people have heard of, like Infinity,
Kicker, Kenwood and MB Quart. So, why not Exile?

I have contacted Exile in an offer to work with them, rather than
against them. I don't want their website to call online retailers in to
question on our honesty or our drive to deliver excellent products and
great customer service. It's slanderous, and affects my ability to do
business. Aside from that, I'd like to come to an agreement in which I
would guarantee to protect their brand image by delivering excellent
customer service, timely delivery, and so on while they would authorize
Pious Audio as an online retailer of their products.

In the end, Exile cannot decide whether or not their products are sold
online. I can purchase Exile, now, from my distributors. I could sell
them on my website, at 5% over cost, with a warranty, and there's not
much they can do about it (except threaten my distributor, which would
ensure their prosecution for collusion, and I don't think they want
that). It is better for them if they work through the system instead of
against it. It's better for me to work with them instead of against
them. It's better for consumers to have a choice in who they purchase
from instead of having their options dictated to them by brand
managers.

If you agree with choice, believe in the open market system, and know
that slandering and entire group of businesses is wrong, then contact
Exile and let them know about it.

Don Carroll

[Captain Howdy]

The people who started exile were former engineers from Phoenix Gold. The fact
is that their gear is a knock-off of their own designs that belong to Phoenix
Gold.

Exile unlike Phoenix Gold is not a big brand name that is well known and might
be hard to move unless dirt cheap. This might not be the best brand to carry.



In article m>, "FaxMeBeer"
> wrote:
>I've had two customers ask me about Exile's products, and couldn't do
>anything for them because Exile doesn't allow internet sales. This is
>something that all of you who are interested in their products should
>know, and let Exile know that you don't like that policy.
>
>Why wouldn't Exile want their products listed online? One reason is
>that they want to protect their brand identity. They don't want to get
>tied in with some fly-by-night outfit who will give Exile a bad name;
>that's understandable.
>
>The other reasons aren't so altruistic. One reason is that they don't
>want online retailers competing with their brick-and-mortor retailers
>because they want to maintain a certain price point. In other words,
>they want to manipulate the market and engage in price fixing. They
>sell this idea to you, the consumer, as a protection against buying
>knock-off products but that's a joke. Most people don't know who Exile
>is, there would be no benefit to making knock-offs in the first place.
>If someone was interested in creating knock offs of something, they'd
>go very high end, and knock off a brand that has some recognition in
>the market. They also ensure you that by purchasing from non-online
>ratailers, you preserve your factory warranty; of course, it's only by
>a decision that Exile has made in order to manipulate the market price
>of their products in collusion with their retailers.
>
>Other manufacturers are allowing online companies to offer their
>products. Good brands, that people have heard of, like Infinity,
>Kicker, Kenwood and MB Quart. So, why not Exile?
>
>I have contacted Exile in an offer to work with them, rather than
>against them. I don't want their website to call online retailers in to
>question on our honesty or our drive to deliver excellent products and
>great customer service. It's slanderous, and affects my ability to do
>business. Aside from that, I'd like to come to an agreement in which I
>would guarantee to protect their brand image by delivering excellent
>customer service, timely delivery, and so on while they would authorize
>Pious Audio as an online retailer of their products.
>
>In the end, Exile cannot decide whether or not their products are sold
>online. I can purchase Exile, now, from my distributors. I could sell
>them on my website, at 5% over cost, with a warranty, and there's not
>much they can do about it (except threaten my distributor, which would
>ensure their prosecution for collusion, and I don't think they want
>that). It is better for them if they work through the system instead of
>against it. It's better for me to work with them instead of against
>them. It's better for consumers to have a choice in who they purchase
>from instead of having their options dictated to them by brand
>managers.
>
>If you agree with choice, believe in the open market system, and know
>that slandering and entire group of businesses is wrong, then contact
>Exile and let them know about it.
>
>Don Carroll
>

[FaxMeBeer]

I understand, Captain, it's really more the principal of the thing.
Exile is pretty cheap, and that's cool because I want to be able to
serve people who don't neccessarily have the money for the "best"
products (the best is usually dictated by what you can buy and still
eat).

What I don't appreciate is Exile putting derogatory comments about
online retailers right on their site. If they don't want to deal with
certain retailers, it's there right, but why talk about all of us as if
we're just rip-off artists? We're all trying to do business just like
Exile is -- there are some rip-offs, but there are in every business,
regardless of whether they own a shop, or sell online. And, in the
end, if I've got customers who want to buy Exile, I'm selling Exile,
whether the manufacturer likes it or not.


Captain Howdy wrote:
> The people who started exile were former engineers from Phoenix Gold. The fact
> is that their gear is a knock-off of their own designs that belong to Phoenix
> Gold.
>
> Exile unlike Phoenix Gold is not a big brand name that is well known and might
> be hard to move unless dirt cheap. This might not be the best brand to carry.
>
>
>
> In article m>, "FaxMeBeer"
> > wrote:
> >I've had two customers ask me about Exile's products, and couldn't do
> >anything for them because Exile doesn't allow internet sales. This is
> >something that all of you who are interested in their products should
> >know, and let Exile know that you don't like that policy.
> >
> >Why wouldn't Exile want their products listed online? One reason is
> >that they want to protect their brand identity. They don't want to get
> >tied in with some fly-by-night outfit who will give Exile a bad name;
> >that's understandable.
> >
> >The other reasons aren't so altruistic. One reason is that they don't
> >want online retailers competing with their brick-and-mortor retailers
> >because they want to maintain a certain price point. In other words,
> >they want to manipulate the market and engage in price fixing. They
> >sell this idea to you, the consumer, as a protection against buying
> >knock-off products but that's a joke. Most people don't know who Exile
> >is, there would be no benefit to making knock-offs in the first place.
> >If someone was interested in creating knock offs of something, they'd
> >go very high end, and knock off a brand that has some recognition in
> >the market. They also ensure you that by purchasing from non-online
> >ratailers, you preserve your factory warranty; of course, it's only by
> >a decision that Exile has made in order to manipulate the market price
> >of their products in collusion with their retailers.
> >
> >Other manufacturers are allowing online companies to offer their
> >products. Good brands, that people have heard of, like Infinity,
> >Kicker, Kenwood and MB Quart. So, why not Exile?
> >
> >I have contacted Exile in an offer to work with them, rather than
> >against them. I don't want their website to call online retailers in to
> >question on our honesty or our drive to deliver excellent products and
> >great customer service. It's slanderous, and affects my ability to do
> >business. Aside from that, I'd like to come to an agreement in which I
> >would guarantee to protect their brand image by delivering excellent
> >customer service, timely delivery, and so on while they would authorize
> >Pious Audio as an online retailer of their products.
> >
> >In the end, Exile cannot decide whether or not their products are sold
> >online. I can purchase Exile, now, from my distributors. I could sell
> >them on my website, at 5% over cost, with a warranty, and there's not
> >much they can do about it (except threaten my distributor, which would
> >ensure their prosecution for collusion, and I don't think they want
> >that). It is better for them if they work through the system instead of
> >against it. It's better for me to work with them instead of against
> >them. It's better for consumers to have a choice in who they purchase
> >from instead of having their options dictated to them by brand
> >managers.
> >
> >If you agree with choice, believe in the open market system, and know
> >that slandering and entire group of businesses is wrong, then contact
> >Exile and let them know about it.
> >
> >Don Carroll
> >

[Francious70]

Exile is actually a very good brand. The reason they don't want
internet sales is to support local dealers, the way it should be.
There's no conspiracy theory as to why they don't want internet sales.
If you have questions, e-mail


--
Francious70

[Captain Howdy]

I see where you're comming from and if you can get your hands on their gear
then sell it. MTX does the same thing on their website and I strongly feel
that it's only about price control, as most of the unauthorized resellers are
under cutting the hell out of the authorized resellers. But at the same time
companies like MTX sell to big box stores that liquidate their overstocks and
store-returns to people that sell on Ebay.


In article om>, "FaxMeBeer"
> wrote:
>I understand, Captain, it's really more the principal of the thing.
>Exile is pretty cheap, and that's cool because I want to be able to
>serve people who don't neccessarily have the money for the "best"
>products (the best is usually dictated by what you can buy and still
>eat).
>
>What I don't appreciate is Exile putting derogatory comments about
>online retailers right on their site. If they don't want to deal with
>certain retailers, it's there right, but why talk about all of us as if
>we're just rip-off artists? We're all trying to do business just like
>Exile is -- there are some rip-offs, but there are in every business,
>regardless of whether they own a shop, or sell online. And, in the
>end, if I've got customers who want to buy Exile, I'm selling Exile,
>whether the manufacturer likes it or not.
>
>
>Captain Howdy wrote:
>> The people who started exile were former engineers from Phoenix Gold. The
> fact
>> is that their gear is a knock-off of their own designs that belong to
> Phoenix
>> Gold.
>>
>> Exile unlike Phoenix Gold is not a big brand name that is well known and
> might
>> be hard to move unless dirt cheap. This might not be the best brand to carry.
>>
>>
>>
>> In article m>, "FaxMeBeer"
>> > wrote:
>> >I've had two customers ask me about Exile's products, and couldn't do
>> >anything for them because Exile doesn't allow internet sales. This is
>> >something that all of you who are interested in their products should
>> >know, and let Exile know that you don't like that policy.
>> >
>> >Why wouldn't Exile want their products listed online? One reason is
>> >that they want to protect their brand identity. They don't want to get
>> >tied in with some fly-by-night outfit who will give Exile a bad name;
>> >that's understandable.
>> >
>> >The other reasons aren't so altruistic. One reason is that they don't
>> >want online retailers competing with their brick-and-mortor retailers
>> >because they want to maintain a certain price point. In other words,
>> >they want to manipulate the market and engage in price fixing. They
>> >sell this idea to you, the consumer, as a protection against buying
>> >knock-off products but that's a joke. Most people don't know who Exile
>> >is, there would be no benefit to making knock-offs in the first place.
>> >If someone was interested in creating knock offs of something, they'd
>> >go very high end, and knock off a brand that has some recognition in
>> >the market. They also ensure you that by purchasing from non-online
>> >ratailers, you preserve your factory warranty; of course, it's only by
>> >a decision that Exile has made in order to manipulate the market price
>> >of their products in collusion with their retailers.
>> >
>> >Other manufacturers are allowing online companies to offer their
>> >products. Good brands, that people have heard of, like Infinity,
>> >Kicker, Kenwood and MB Quart. So, why not Exile?
>> >
>> >I have contacted Exile in an offer to work with them, rather than
>> >against them. I don't want their website to call online retailers in to
>> >question on our honesty or our drive to deliver excellent products and
>> >great customer service. It's slanderous, and affects my ability to do
>> >business. Aside from that, I'd like to come to an agreement in which I
>> >would guarantee to protect their brand image by delivering excellent
>> >customer service, timely delivery, and so on while they would authorize
>> >Pious Audio as an online retailer of their products.
>> >
>> >In the end, Exile cannot decide whether or not their products are sold
>> >online. I can purchase Exile, now, from my distributors. I could sell
>> >them on my website, at 5% over cost, with a warranty, and there's not
>> >much they can do about it (except threaten my distributor, which would
>> >ensure their prosecution for collusion, and I don't think they want
>> >that). It is better for them if they work through the system instead of
>> >against it. It's better for me to work with them instead of against
>> >them. It's better for consumers to have a choice in who they purchase
>> >from instead of having their options dictated to them by brand
>> >managers.
>> >
>> >If you agree with choice, believe in the open market system, and know
>> >that slandering and entire group of businesses is wrong, then contact
>> >Exile and let them know about it.
>> >
>> >Don Carroll
>> >
>

[Captain Howdy]

The way it should be? LOL

In article >, Francious70
> wrote:
>
>Exile is actually a very good brand. The reason they don't want
>internet sales is to support local dealers, the way it should be.
>There's no conspiracy theory as to why they don't want internet sales.
>If you have questions, e-mail
>
>

[FaxMeBeer]

The Sherman Anti-trust Act doesn't think that's the way it should be
("...For example, where competitors agree to sell their goods or
services at a specified price, minimum price or maximum price and they
receive profits from such an agreement, they are in violation of price
fixing."). There is a reason that businesses aren't allowed to
collude. I understand that there are legal loop-holes that allow
manufactuers to use "exclusive" deals, but that doesn't make it right.
If the buying public doesn't appreciate Exile and it's retailers
actively working against them, then the buying public should be
encouraged to let Exile know. I'm encouraging.

I also encourage employees of Exile, such as Francious, to address the
concerns that I've already outlined to them via e-mail, rather than
debating the issue on message boards, and making themselves look worse.

[Francious70]

I'm not an employee of Exile, just an audio enthusist such as yourself.


--
Francious70

[jlaine]

FaxMeBeer Wrote:
>
> I also encourage employees of Exile, such as Francious, to address the
> concerns that I've already outlined to them via e-mail, rather than
> debating the issue on message boards, and making themselves look worse.

And you debating this tripe on message boards doesn't make you look
like a goon?

Don't like their internet policy, buy something else.


--
jlaine

[FaxMeBeer]

jlaine, I understand and don't completely dissagree with you. I
certainly would rather not have this conversation in this way. I don't
intend to carry it on long, especially not in this environment, but I
really hoped to let people know about what I feel is an unfair market
practice used by not only Exile, but many manufacturers. As a retailer
who works with customers every day, I feel a duty to speak up if they
are being taken advantage of.

[jlaine]

Eclipse, Zapco, Phoenix Gold, Kicker - (insert brand here)...

They all have a no, or limited online policy, and I agree with them
almost 99% of the time. People buying product of the internet typically
are young, inexperienced fools. Selling product with a warranty to
someone that you cannot verify their technical skills and/or even their
general intelligence for that matter, is a lesson in economics you've
apparently not run through yet. You get improperly installed equipment
back in so frequently it is enough to pull your hair out, and ****ed
off 16 year olds who are angry at you for their own stupidity...

I have done it.. And I prefer the face-to-face sale every time -
especially when it involves me installing the product, then I know
exactly what is going on.


--
jlaine

[FaxMeBeer]

jlaine, come on! So you're saying that the average guy (or woman) who
buys their Kicker Amp at Circuit City is somehow intellectually and
technically superior to the guy who feels that he knows enough about
what he's doing to buy his equipment without the help of a sales
associate and so saves 20% or 30% by shopping online?

Other brands: Kicker, Alphasonic, Pioneer, Sony, Alpine,
Infinity...they have a method for becoming an authorized retailer
online. Some brands do not. Those brands which don't are only trying
to protect one thing: the base price of their products.

[jlaine]

You give online sales far too much credit - but on top of that you
weren't able to read my statement properly.

You assume that the average guy can properly install and troubleshoot
various portions of a system, and to extend beyond that - properly set
it up, tune it within its allowable limitations to minimize returns
from abuse, and secure everything.

Save your 20 to 30%, I say you lose your warranty in the process, and
I'm fine with the manufacturers not supporting online sales. I wouldn't
either - you have no idea how your product is being installed or treated
in the process with that system - at least with a dealer network you
have some level of checks and balances.

Your conspiracy theory is foolish, MSRP is MSRP no matter the brand. No
dealer is mandated to hold to it - just because you're afraid of walking
into a car electronics store and haggling a little doesn't make your
method better.


--
jlaine

[FaxMeBeer]

"You assume that the average guy can properly install and troubleshoot
various portions of a system, and to extend beyond that - properly set
it up, tune it within its allowable limitations to minimize returns
from abuse, and secure everything."

I don't assume anything. I'm pointing out the lack of logic in a
position which maintains that a guy who walks into a brick-and-motor
store and buys an Amp cash-and-carry is somehow more technically savvy
and more intelligent than someone who buys the same product for less
money online.

If the issue was about how well the component would be installed, then
the manufacturers wouldn't worry about where the part was sold, but who
installed it. The manufactuers (those that I'm aware of and work with)
don't have warranty restrictions on installs done by non-authorized
facilities or individuals, so the manufacturers obviously don't share
your concern with the quality of installation.

I'll quote Exile directly, "You will not find our products sold [in the
world of] online predators with ridiculous special prices and hidden
shipping charges." They aren't concerned with the quality of
installation, they're concerned with companies with much smaller
overhead than brick-and-mortor stores impacting the price-point of
their products (once your product starts selling for $200.00, it's more
difficult to put out products in the future at $700.00). As far as the
shipping charges, they certainly aren't hidden, and they should be
taken into account in the final price (my site quotes the shipping
charges prior to payment being made).

It's illogical to say that shipping charges make online purchases less
attractive. I'd say that by purchasing from your local audio shop,
you're paying "hidden" sales taxes (as high as 9% in some places),
rent, electric bills, sales associate's commissions, "loss" (due to
employee theft), and various other "hidden fees" that are associated
with traditional retail establishments. That's why I can sell for cost
+ 15% to 30% while the brick-and-motor stores are selling for cost +
100% or more. Shipping costs notwithstanding.

Further, manufacturers use these "authorized dealers" arrangements to
restrict competition. I just spoke with the buyer for a very large
electronics retailer the yesterday who informed me that his company had
been cut off by Infinity (not completely cut off, but left only with
the lower rung Infinity products) for selling a rival brand.
Manufacturers of all sorts of products, from Sodas to Cars, engage in
these practices and it is never for the benefit of the consumer. You
can read on Exile's forums that it's doing the same thing, as a few new
dealers have commented on having to "get rid of some lines" in order to
carry Exile. I'm sure that has more to do with Exile's marketing
department than any decision by the retailer to limit it's offerings on
their own.


P. S.:

"just because you're afraid of walking
into a car electronics store and haggling a little doesn't make your
method better." If you can get your local audio shop to consistantly
sell to you at what I can sell for, then more power to you. As their
overhead is so much higher than mine, they'd have a hell of a time
selling their products at those prices for too long while staying in
business.

[jlaine]

And so on and so forth...

Apparently you haven't read many warranties, several limit the warranty
period if the items are not installed by an authorized person from their
list - Eclipse being one of them. Guess that means they agree with me,
not to mention the fact they try to avoid online sales just further
strengthens my point.

Exile can do what they want with their own products. I encourage them
to continue to do exactly what they are doing, which is maintaining
support for a dealer network and minimizing the potential for
unauthorized sales.

Buy something else if you don't like it - believe it or not, internet
sales are barely a fraction of what the brick stores can do, and with
that venue at least they have someone in the industry that should have
a decent idea of how to install things. Given that, they're already
much further ahead than what the grand internet offers - because at the
end of the day, one disgruntled internet vendor such as yourself means
nothing to a company when compared next to the several hundred percent
increase in "warranty claims" that happens when one opens the venue to
"authorized" internet sales.


--
jlaine

[MOSFET]

I will offer my $.02 to this discussion...

Car audio products ARE DIFFERENT than many other electronic devices sold
both retail and on the internet. Specifically, if a kid buys an iPod
online, it is very unlikely he will blow the thing up by connecting the
headphone jack or USB cable incorrectly. However, when it comes to kids and
amps/subwoofers, this is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!!!!!!! Anyone
involved in this industry (be it manufacturerer, retailer both on-line and
brick and mortar and the consumer) should be aware of this and act
accordingly. I see NOTHING WRONG with manufacturerers wanting to only sell
their products through brick-and-mortar establishments for this reason (when
I worked at Phoenix Gold, we ONLY sold to brick-and-mortar), nor do I think
there is anything wrong with warning people of the pitfalls of trying to do
their own installations without proper knowledge. I also think IT IS
EXTEMELY WISE to limit warranties to AUTHORIZED INSTALLATIONS ONLY.

Frankly, I ALWAYS tell younger people and those with no car stereo
experience to have their gear installed professionally. The problem,
however, is that when the 16 year old gets his new car audio gear that he
ordered online, the temptation to put it in himself is often too great.
When buying at a brick and mortar, however, installation is often free for
HU's and speakers and the retailer will wisely encourge the buyer to have
his stuff installed there.

Again, I'm not a dumb guy, YET I've fried my share of gear when I first
started out. This indistry IS DIFFERENT than other consumer electronics.

MOSFET

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
> I will offer my $.02 to this discussion...
>
> Car audio products ARE DIFFERENT than many other electronic devices sold
> both retail and on the internet. Specifically, if a kid buys an iPod
> online, it is very unlikely he will blow the thing up by connecting the
> headphone jack or USB cable incorrectly. However, when it comes to kids and
> amps/subwoofers, this is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!!!!!!! Anyone
> involved in this industry (be it manufacturerer, retailer both on-line and
> brick and mortar and the consumer) should be aware of this and act
> accordingly. I see NOTHING WRONG with manufacturerers wanting to only sell
> their products through brick-and-mortar establishments for this reason (when
> I worked at Phoenix Gold, we ONLY sold to brick-and-mortar), nor do I think
> there is anything wrong with warning people of the pitfalls of trying to do
> their own installations without proper knowledge. I also think IT IS
> EXTEMELY WISE to limit warranties to AUTHORIZED INSTALLATIONS ONLY.
>
> Frankly, I ALWAYS tell younger people and those with no car stereo
> experience to have their gear installed professionally. The problem,
> however, is that when the 16 year old gets his new car audio gear that he
> ordered online, the temptation to put it in himself is often too great.
> When buying at a brick and mortar, however, installation is often free for
> HU's and speakers and the retailer will wisely encourge the buyer to have
> his stuff installed there.
>
> Again, I'm not a dumb guy, YET I've fried my share of gear when I first
> started out. This indistry IS DIFFERENT than other consumer electronics.
>
> MOSFET

Well said.

Home-stereo gear CAN be friend by the average unexperienced or idiot
home-installer, but it's WAY more difficult to do, especially since a
lot of newer stuff comes with all manner of color-coded connectors.
Same is true with most other electrical and electronic devices
(120V-powered electrical stuff, like appliances, is very strictly
regulated for consumer safety).


---
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http://www.avast.com

[Pious Audio]

Mosfet, I don't dissagree with the issues surrounding installs, but
that entire portion of this discussion is a Straw Man. Even if I
contracted with certified installers in every city that I ship products
to, still some companies, such as Exile, would not allow me to sell
their products. That is a detriment to the consumer, clear and simple.
It is also a detriment to those of us who are attempting to build a
business which offers those products that customers want. Granted,
only two customers have asked for this particular brand, but Exile is
not the only manufacturer which engages in this type of market
manipulation (though the list is shrinking; I was given authorization
by Kicker to sell their products online last month, for instance).
jlaine correctly points out that even for those manufacturers whose
warranties are affected by whom the components were installed, the
warranty is not voided, it's adjusted. The list of manufacturers that
go that far is very short.

The other issue is for a business to engage in highly slanderous
generalizations in an attempt to hide their own questionable acts,
i.e.: "online predators with ridiculous special prices and hidden
shipping charges." Statements like that reflect directly upon my
business, my ability to earn an honest living.

I'd encourage you to look beyond the issue of installs and how
professional they are; every manufacturer that I'm aware of will allow
it's brick and mortor stores to sell components directly to consumers
without having it installed at the retailer's location, or by someone
the retailer has contracted with. Maybe it gets installed
professionally, maybe it doesn't. I've also sat here and read through
about ten different warranties, and while all require proof that the
part was purchased by an "authorized dealer or distributor", none of
them require proof of where the components were installed.

And jlaine is also correct that Exile can sell to whom they wish. I've
got a right to call into question any other company which calls my
business "predatory" and which accuses me of hiding costs from my
customer. I would not, under any circumstances, put statements on my
website about the various rip-offs associated with buying from a
brick-and-motor store as opposed to purchasing online. I wouldn't call
them a bunch of con-artists for passing their various and bloated
(...key term here) costs of doing business on to their customers even
while knowing that the customer could buy the same product for 70% less
elsewhere.

And, for a moment, let's take my company out of the discussion. What
about Crutchfield? That company has been around for, what? 300 years?
Do they have any physical location anywhere? Being without a corner
store in whatever section of America you happen to have been born into,
landed in, or migrated to does not dictate that you can not do a fair
business and take care of your customers. And being part of a big
corporate machine which has the sole purpose of *profit maximazation*
(as opposed to earning a fair profit, two different concepts), doesn't
make, neccessarily, for a qualified sales outlet.

I've really got no more to say on this topic. I will continue to
pursue "authorized status" through those various manufacturers who are
more reasonable than Exile and its ilk, and I will continue to pursue
Exile in particular until they remove their slanderous remarks about my
business (and those like it) from their website.

[MOSFET]

> Mosfet, I don't dissagree with the issues surrounding installs, but
> that entire portion of this discussion is a Straw Man.

I don't know enough about your specific business and Exile to speak
intelligently about your situation, that was not my intention. My sole
intention was to point out that the installation part of this business makes
it very, very, very different than other consumer electronics sales. Your
last Email seems to imply that this is just one small part of this issue. I
did not focus on installation because it represents a "straw man" argument,
from what I have seen, it is often the central issue when it comes to
deciding marketing strategies, distribution strategies, warranties, etc.
COUNTLESS companies have found (often through bitter tears) that often the
difference between a satisfied customer and a ****ed off customer is a
professional installation. I know this FIRST HAND from working in the
marketing dept. at Phoenix Gold (I have an MBA, not that that makes my
opinions more valid than yours).

I think you underestimate the importance of this issue.

MOSFET

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
>>Mosfet, I don't dissagree with the issues surrounding installs, but
>>that entire portion of this discussion is a Straw Man.
>
>
> I don't know enough about your specific business and Exile to speak
> intelligently about your situation, that was not my intention. My sole
> intention was to point out that the installation part of this business makes
> it very, very, very different than other consumer electronics sales. Your
> last Email seems to imply that this is just one small part of this issue. I
> did not focus on installation because it represents a "straw man" argument,
> from what I have seen, it is often the central issue when it comes to
> deciding marketing strategies, distribution strategies, warranties, etc.
> COUNTLESS companies have found (often through bitter tears) that often the
> difference between a satisfied customer and a ****ed off customer is a
> professional installation. I know this FIRST HAND from working in the
> marketing dept. at Phoenix Gold (I have an MBA, not that that makes my
> opinions more valid than yours).
>
> I think you underestimate the importance of this issue.

Actually, there's a standing discussion of a very similar issue over in
alt.security.alarms - DIYers are the bane of that industry as well, as a
poor install can make all the difference in whether an alarm/security
system works properly or not... and a security system that doesn't work
properly is about as useful as a condom full of holes.

Many retailers simply don't sell to DIYers for just that reason. Those
that do have a LOT of fine print to cover their asses against problems
arising from poorly-installed DIY systems. And one guy charges
significantly higher prices for his DIY sales, but also notes very
plainly on his website that this extra cost also includes extensive
phone/email support, and the higher prices are there specifically to
make this worth his time, because as he pointed out in one thread, he's
too often had sales cost him more in support time than he made in profit
on the sale.


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[MOSFET]

>
> Actually, there's a standing discussion of a very similar issue over in
> alt.security.alarms - DIYers are the bane of that industry as well, as a
> poor install can make all the difference in whether an alarm/security
> system works properly or not... and a security system that doesn't work
> properly is about as useful as a condom full of holes.
>
> Many retailers simply don't sell to DIYers for just that reason. Those
> that do have a LOT of fine print to cover their asses against problems
> arising from poorly-installed DIY systems. And one guy charges
> significantly higher prices for his DIY sales, but also notes very plainly
> on his website that this extra cost also includes extensive phone/email
> support, and the higher prices are there specifically to make this worth
> his time, because as he pointed out in one thread, he's too often had
> sales cost him more in support time than he made in profit on the sale.

That's interesting. I hadn't even considered the issue of installing car
alarms, but when I think about it, today's sophisticated car alarms are EVEN
MORE DIFFICULT to install than a typical multi-amp car stereo. There are
about a billion things that can go wrong and it takes an INTIMATE knowledge
of your car's electrical system, something 99.9% of consumers DO NOT HAVE.
As comfortable as I am installing audio systems (I have installed DOZENS
over the years), I would not even try to install a sophisticated car alarm
system (with all the bells and whistles) without SOME kind of training
first.

The ONLY subtle difference I see, however, between alarms and audio is that
it seems to me that amps and subwoofers are MUCH more susceptible to damage
due to incompetent installations than alarms. With alarms, it seems
(generally speaking) the worst thing that happens is that the alarm doesn't
work or doesn't work correctly. With audio systems (and in particular
subwoofers and amplifiers), there are MANY ways these components can be
hooked up incorrectly that will cause damage (in particular, too low an
impedance load is A SUPER COMMON MISTAKE and very often will destroy an
amp). And I suppose the other subtle difference is that due to the
complexity of alarm systems, "tech-support" is needed much more for the DIY
alarm installer.

But yes, overall, these are VERY similar issues for retailers, manufacturers
and consumers.

MOSFET

[Pious Audio]

I, too, have an MBA (Accounting) and so I wouldn't feel that your
opinions are more valid than mine. I do value your input, however, and
I thank you for sharing. I would certainly be much more receptive to
your position if these companies refused to sale direct to the public
under any circumstances for DIY installs (refused any warranty, require
documentation of who did the install, require installers to be
certified and so on). As that is not the case for any brand that I'm
aware of, I simply don't feel that a discussion about whether or not
installs will be done well should be part of a more specific discussion
about what is really market manipulation on the part of manufacturers.

[Pious Audio]

Matt,

I certainly am not going to argue that DIY installs are good for any
business. Garage door manufacturers would prefer that their products
be installed by pros, and companies that make rod bearings would rather
that only ASE techs installed them. My point, which I'll continue to
stand by until someone shows me different, is that the manufacturers'
documentation doesn't pan this (...lack of expertise) out as a reason
for not allowing online sells. This is a very odd situation, to me, of
the public which is adversely affected by decisions by manufacturers to
limit competition and so keep prices up by artificial means but who
choose to make excuses for the manufacturers even against the very
policies of the same. It really blows my mind.

As for your guy who charges more for DIY installs, I'd be interested in
looking at his site to see exactly how he pulls that off. Are you sure
we're not simply talking about the difference between jobber pricing
and retail pricing (which has much more to do with the level of
business done with a certain customer than the level of expertise of
the customer)?

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
>>Actually, there's a standing discussion of a very similar issue over in
>>alt.security.alarms - DIYers are the bane of that industry as well, as a
>>poor install can make all the difference in whether an alarm/security
>>system works properly or not... and a security system that doesn't work
>>properly is about as useful as a condom full of holes.
>>
>>Many retailers simply don't sell to DIYers for just that reason. Those
>>that do have a LOT of fine print to cover their asses against problems
>>arising from poorly-installed DIY systems. And one guy charges
>>significantly higher prices for his DIY sales, but also notes very plainly
>>on his website that this extra cost also includes extensive phone/email
>>support, and the higher prices are there specifically to make this worth
>>his time, because as he pointed out in one thread, he's too often had
>>sales cost him more in support time than he made in profit on the sale.
>
>
> That's interesting. I hadn't even considered the issue of installing car
> alarms, but when I think about it, today's sophisticated car alarms are EVEN
> MORE DIFFICULT to install than a typical multi-amp car stereo.

Actually, a.s.a is concerned primarily with home/commercial security
systems, including alarms and video/CCTV systems.

> There are about a billion things that can go wrong and it takes an INTIMATE
> knowledge of your car's electrical system,

Not so much, until you start getting into fancy stuff like powerlock
interfaces, auto-window-rollups, etc. Connect to constant and ignition
power, tie into your dome light, hook up the siren, and your basic alarm
system is done. Gets a little trickier tying into the parking lights
and adding an ignition kill, but even those aren't THAT difficult.

> The ONLY subtle difference I see, however, between alarms and audio is that
> it seems to me that amps and subwoofers are MUCH more susceptible to damage
> due to incompetent installations than alarms. With alarms, it seems
> (generally speaking) the worst thing that happens is that the alarm doesn't
> work or doesn't work correctly. With audio systems (and in particular
> subwoofers and amplifiers), there are MANY ways these components can be
> hooked up incorrectly that will cause damage (in particular, too low an
> impedance load is A SUPER COMMON MISTAKE and very often will destroy an
> amp). And I suppose the other subtle difference is that due to the
> complexity of alarm systems, "tech-support" is needed much more for the DIY
> alarm installer.

When you get into "non-mobile" security systems, you can be looking at
potential losses into tens or hundreds of thousands, or even millions of
dollars, if a system doesn't work. Most also tie into various fire-,
gas-, or flood-detector sensors, or other systems to signal the proper
authorities, so it can also become a life-or-death issue. Thus proper
operation becomes of critical importance.

Standard magnetic door and window switches are usually relatively
straightforward, although I've seen and heard of some pretty stupid
wiring gaffes, like running all the wiring unshielded on the OUTSIDE of
the building. Motion sensors aren't difficult per se, but improper
location or positioning can render them useless.

Car alarms are also usually set up so they can be wired up and just WORK
with no further programming. Almost every land-based alarm system will
require at least SOME programming on activation, to properly set
entry-delayed zones, always-armed zones, etc., programming for
monitoring dialup, setting individual activation codes (and changing the
default Master and Installer codes - you'd be surprised how often this
DOESN'T happen), and so on.


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[Captain Howdy]

I've installed more alarms then I care to count and to be honest it's not the
alarms that I find difficult to install, it's the different cars that bring
the difficulty levels to a new high.

I just did an alarm/starter/entry on a 97 ford crown vic. Like most fords it
has reverse polarity door locks and all it takes is a minor switch of the lock
and unlock wires on the wrong ends of the car door lock wires and kaboom. This
car also has a lighting computer ($450) that controls all of the lights, there
are no door pins on this car any the only way to hookup door triggers is to
tap into the lighting computer.

Hooking up the parking light wire to the headlight switch (like on most cars)
on this car is sure death for the lighting computer as the headlight switch
only uses low voltage that goes to the lighting computer and then the computer
feeds the lights.

As for the "car starter" there is no tach output, not even on the ecm and
without a tach wire the "car starter" has no way of knowing if the car started
first try or not. But skilled as I am, I used the oil pressure sensing.

I won't even get into the nastiness of cars that have transponder ignitions.

Car alarm installs can turn ugly even for a pro, never mind a noob and the
internet is full of ill information when it comes to car alarm installs such
as this crown vic.






In article >, "MOSFET"
> wrote:
>>

>
>That's interesting. I hadn't even considered the issue of installing car
>alarms, but when I think about it, today's sophisticated car alarms are EVEN
>MORE DIFFICULT to install than a typical multi-amp car stereo. There are
>about a billion things that can go wrong and it takes an INTIMATE knowledge
>of your car's electrical system, something 99.9% of consumers DO NOT HAVE.
>As comfortable as I am installing audio systems (I have installed DOZENS
>over the years), I would not even try to install a sophisticated car alarm
>system (with all the bells and whistles) without SOME kind of training
>first.
>
>The ONLY subtle difference I see, however, between alarms and audio is that
>it seems to me that amps and subwoofers are MUCH more susceptible to damage
>due to incompetent installations than alarms. With alarms, it seems
>(generally speaking) the worst thing that happens is that the alarm doesn't
>work or doesn't work correctly. With audio systems (and in particular
>subwoofers and amplifiers), there are MANY ways these components can be
>hooked up incorrectly that will cause damage (in particular, too low an
>impedance load is A SUPER COMMON MISTAKE and very often will destroy an
>amp). And I suppose the other subtle difference is that due to the
>complexity of alarm systems, "tech-support" is needed much more for the DIY
>alarm installer.
>
>But yes, overall, these are VERY similar issues for retailers, manufacturers
>and consumers.
>
>MOSFET
>
>

[Pious Audio]

Matt, I respect your view of all this, but on this point: "If anyone is
"adversely affected" in this kind of instance, it can really only be
the manufacturer, who's limiting their sales scope. Nobody's life if
really going to suffer that much because they can't buy a certain brand
of stereo gear.", I must point out that while the individual consumer
isn't affected (assuming that they'll buy the next-best good or, more
likely, find the good they want somewhere else), I am affected. I make
my living by providing consumers that which they wish to buy. If
enough manufacturers followed the lead of companies like Exile, then
entry into the market is essentially blocked. From my point of view,
this is an extremely important issue that goes way beyond my simply
dissagreeing with a marketing tactic used by some manufacturers.


Matt Ion wrote:
> Pious Audio wrote:
> > Matt,
> >
> > I certainly am not going to argue that DIY installs are good for any
> > business. Garage door manufacturers would prefer that their products
> > be installed by pros, and companies that make rod bearings would rather
> > that only ASE techs installed them. My point, which I'll continue to
> > stand by until someone shows me different, is that the manufacturers'
> > documentation doesn't pan this (...lack of expertise) out as a reason
> > for not allowing online sells. This is a very odd situation, to me, of
> > the public which is adversely affected by decisions by manufacturers to
> > limit competition and so keep prices up by artificial means but who
> > choose to make excuses for the manufacturers even against the very
> > policies of the same. It really blows my mind.
>
> If anyone is "adversely affected" in this kind of instance, it can
> really only be the manufacturer, who's limiting their sales scope.
> Nobody's life if really going to suffer that much because they can't buy
> a certain brand of stereo gear. This obviously is not the norm amongst
> car audio manufacturers, and as such really does NOT affect the overall
> market price. And again, we're not talking a basic necessity of life
> anyway.
>
> If they want to play snooty, that's their prerogative. Maybe they feel
> it enhances their reputation in the industry, to be extra-expensive and
> of only very limited availablility - that's certainly been true of
> various other home-electronics manufacturers for many decades, and it
> hasn't damaged that industry.
>
> > As for your guy who charges more for DIY installs, I'd be interested in
> > looking at his site to see exactly how he pulls that off. Are you sure
> > we're not simply talking about the difference between jobber pricing
> > and retail pricing (which has much more to do with the level of
> > business done with a certain customer than the level of expertise of
> > the customer)?
>
> I don't know how he differentiates. I suppose one could look at it as
> jobber vs. retail pricing. The main point is, his "retail" or "DIY"
> price is admittedly significantly higher than other online sources to
> make up for the spate of support calls experience has shown him he can
> expect from DIY installs, and he makes no bones about this in his
> advertising. His main pitch is that that support WILL be there. Other
> companies sell separate support contracts. Nothing right or wrong about
> either, they're just different business models.
>
>
>
>
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> http://www.avast.com

[MOSFET]

> Matt, I respect your view of all this, but on this point: "If anyone is
> "adversely affected" in this kind of instance, it can really only be
> the manufacturer, who's limiting their sales scope. Nobody's life if
> really going to suffer that much because they can't buy a certain brand
> of stereo gear.", I must point out that while the individual consumer
> isn't affected (assuming that they'll buy the next-best good or, more
> likely, find the good they want somewhere else), I am affected. I make
> my living by providing consumers that which they wish to buy. If
> enough manufacturers followed the lead of companies like Exile, then
> entry into the market is essentially blocked. From my point of view,
> this is an extremely important issue that goes way beyond my simply
> dissagreeing with a marketing tactic used by some manufacturers.

Wait a sec, let me get this straight, you're mad because a certain brand
won't let you sell their stuff? I don't mean to be flippant, but do you
know ANYTHING about marketing?

A product's distribution strategy is a KEY factor in how the product is
positioned in the marketplace. This is why Rolex doesn't sell watches at
Wal-Mart. Could Rolex sell some watches at Wal-Mart, of course! What I
keep hearing in all your posts is that, according to you, this means THEY
SHOULD sell their watches there (you claim it is unfair that these poor
Wal-Mart shoppers who WANT to buy a Rolex there, BUT THEY CAN'T!). I
STRONGLY suggest you take a basic marketing course at your nearest community
college. I REALLY don't mean to sound rude, but there seems to be a serious
disconnect in your understanding of some basic strategies involving brand
imaging, niche marketing, and distribution.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

> So what IS Exile's policy then? Sales only through selected dealers? If
> so, why not become one yourself?

Exactly, I was thinking this myself. If you want Exile so bad, find out
what their distribution guidelines are and then FOLLOW THEM (I'm sure it
starts with renting some retail space).

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

YOU DO HAVE AN MBA? In accounting, huh? Well, that explains a lot (mine's
marketing, and I was a college professor of marketing at the University of
Portland). You must have forgotten much about what you learned in those
marketing courses.

MOSFET

"Pious Audio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I, too, have an MBA (Accounting) and so I wouldn't feel that your
> opinions are more valid than mine. I do value your input, however, and
> I thank you for sharing. I would certainly be much more receptive to
> your position if these companies refused to sale direct to the public
> under any circumstances for DIY installs (refused any warranty, require
> documentation of who did the install, require installers to be
> certified and so on). As that is not the case for any brand that I'm
> aware of, I simply don't feel that a discussion about whether or not
> installs will be done well should be part of a more specific discussion
> about what is really market manipulation on the part of manufacturers.
>

[MOSFET]

BTW, I have forgotten EVERYTHING I learned in accounting. I know there are
debits and credits.....and I know a balance sheet MUST balance. That's
about as far as my accounting knowlege goes.

MOSFET

[Pious Audio]

This has become quite personal. Mosfet, I'm sorry that you think that
the fact that we dissagree means that you somehow have a more nuanced
and informed opinion of the market and of business than I do. Pious
Audio is the fourth business I've started, the previous three have been
successful and allow me and my family to live in relative comfort.
Surely you have some insights into business that I don't, but I've
created my own paycheck for long enough to feel very confident in my
ability to comprehend simple business concepts. Your corporate
background gives you a particular view of how things work -- it's not
invalid, but it certainly isn't the complete picture.

Obviously, my purpose in starting this thread was so that those who
agreed with me could make their feelings known to the manufacturer (the
consumer is, after all, has the final word on all of this). Matt,
Francious and you are behind the manufacturers right to control the
market, I get that. I respectfully dissagree, and I'll leave it at
that.

[MOSFET]

"Pious. Matt,
> Francious and you are behind the manufacturers right to control the
> market, I get that.

I'm sorry, but a statement like this only demonstrates your apparent lack of
understanding regarding this. THE MARKET CONTROLS ITSELF, PURE AND SIMPLE
(if Exile chooses a poor distribution strategy they will go TU eventually).
This is the basis of a free-market economy, again these are concepts you
time and time again seem to be failing to grasp.

I have NO DOUBT that you are a successful business man, and MORE POWER TO
YOU, I TRULY wish you the best. And I didn't mean for this to sound like a
personal attack, sorry if it did, I honestly enjoy debating in this manner
with intelligent people. But, again, you are failing to grasp the
importance of distribution in the overall marketing strategy of a brand.
Sometimes, exclusivity is EXACTLY what makes a product desirable. You seem
to think it makes sense for every product to be available everywhere. From
a marketing standpoint, this is ridiculous and I was only half-joking about
taking a marketing class. Perhaps you should dig up some of your old
marketing text books (if you still have them) and study the four P's (price,
product, promotion, place).

I understand that you think this is a poor strategy for Exile to follow. I
don't know enough about Exile to either agree or disagree with you.
However, what I DO KNOW is that IT IS A STRATEGY. And it is THE MARKET the
determines the success or failure of such a strategy.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

> It occurs to me that the name of his venture is quite well-chosen... :)

LOL

SO TRUE!

[Pious Audio]

Mosfet, I really can't believe you cannot comprehend the strategy,
here. I mean, you're an intelligent guy who can add things up. Here,
I'll package it up for you.

1) I've had two customers in less than a week ask me about a certain
brand...I don't have access to it, and I want access.

2) The manufacturer has a right to pick-and-choose it's retailers, but
in the end the manufacturer must satisfy the market's demands.

3) I take my case to the market. If the market agrees with me, then
the manufacturer is pressured into allowing me to provide my customers
with that which they desire.

It's all that simple. I do question the viability of a marketing plan
that sells low-to-mid level components as if they were top shelf with
all of this exlusive bull****. I've taken my case to the people -- in
the end, when consumers search for Exile Car Audio on Google, they will
come up with my posts about the brand and it's business policies. If I
am right, that most consumers don't appreciate the manufacturer working
against them, then Exile may feel the pressure.

I'm not dense, I understand the idea of controlling your marketing and
brand identity. I hope you can step back and see the idea of one
business not letting itself be controlled by the decisions of another.
I think the parochial term is "playing hard ball". I also understand,
and you should have seen this: Exile is a target of convenience. They
are small and relatively unknown, as am I. Had I started this
discussion referencing a better known brand, this discussion certainly
wouldn't have went on for this long. As it stands, I've engaged a
number of people in this conversation, and garnered response directly
from Elite, larger and more well-known companies would not have engaged
me.

[Pious Audio]

"If you want Exile so bad, find out
what their distribution guidelines are and then FOLLOW THEM (I'm sure
it
starts with renting some retail space)."

That is your corporate showing. I'm an entrepreneur, I can't simply
fold against adversity or I'd fail. I don't like Exile's guidelines,
so I work to change them. This cannot be that hard to understand.

[MOSFET]

>
> 1) I've had two customers in less than a week ask me about a certain
> brand...I don't have access to it, and I want access.
>
There are two customers who go to Walmart who want a Rolex. Walmart cannot
sell them one, yet Walmart would LOVE to sell them (think of the PROFIT).
According to you, this is terribly unfair. According to you, Rolex is
screwing the public somehow.

> 2) The manufacturer has a right to pick-and-choose it's retailers, but
> in the end the manufacturer must satisfy the market's demands.
>
According to you, Rolex is doing a TERRIBLE job satisfying the needs of it's
customers as they are not sold in the LARGEST RETAILER IN THE LARGEST
ECONOMY IN THE WORLD!!!! How stupid is that?

> 3) I take my case to the market. If the market agrees with me, then
> the manufacturer is pressured into allowing me to provide my customers
> with that which they desire.
>
Well, you're are right about this one. The market WILL decide EVERYTHING.
If enough people hound Rolex to start selling their watches at Walmart, it
is possible (though unlikely) they may start selling them there.

> It's all that simple.

Yes, it is. And if you think my Rolex analogy doesn't fit, I would
disagree. Walmart DOES INDEED sell watches (just like the way you sell
amplifiers).

Again, if you feel Exile is making a terrible mistake, the market will
correct this (either Exile will change it's strategy or go out of business).
It is NOT the manufacturers who decide what works and what doesn't in the
marketplace, IT'S THE MARKETPLACE.

You seem to think that just because a customer desires a certain product,
they therefore have some GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BUY IT FROM YOU. But then
again, you are called "Pious Audio". ;)

MOSFET

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
>>1) I've had two customers in less than a week ask me about a certain
>>brand...I don't have access to it, and I want access.
>>
>
> There are two customers who go to Walmart who want a Rolex. Walmart cannot
> sell them one, yet Walmart would LOVE to sell them (think of the PROFIT).
> According to you, this is terribly unfair. According to you, Rolex is
> screwing the public somehow.

Well actually, he's claiming that Rolex is screwing Wal-Mart be denying
them the profit they'd make selling the watches.

But, that's business.

>>2) The manufacturer has a right to pick-and-choose it's retailers, but
>>in the end the manufacturer must satisfy the market's demands.
>>
>
> According to you, Rolex is doing a TERRIBLE job satisfying the needs of it's
> customers as they are not sold in the LARGEST RETAILER IN THE LARGEST
> ECONOMY IN THE WORLD!!!! How stupid is that?

The fact is, in your analogy, "the market" for Rolex is extremely
limited by the price. The kind of people who buy Rolexes are NOT the
kind of people who shop at Wal-Mart. They're the kind of people who OWN
Wal-Mart.

>>3) I take my case to the market. If the market agrees with me, then
>>the manufacturer is pressured into allowing me to provide my customers
>>with that which they desire.
>>
>
> Well, you're are right about this one. The market WILL decide EVERYTHING.
> If enough people hound Rolex to start selling their watches at Walmart, it
> is possible (though unlikely) they may start selling them there.

The other option is for the retailer to convince the market (or for the
market to realize on its own) that the item in question really isn't
worth the extra hassle and expense, that the inflated value is as a
status symbol only. While I doubt that's the case with Rolex watches
(are they REALLY all that good, or is a Rolex just "the thing" to have
when you've got more money than brains?), it could just as well be the
case with Exile's marketing model - be rare, be exclusive, be expensive,
and everyone will think you're hot **** and the "gotta have it" car
audio gear.

So instead of whining that they won't sell to him, Pious could just as
easily spend his time (and posts) pointing out why Exile AIN'T "all
that" and that their money would be better spent elsewhere.

> Again, if you feel Exile is making a terrible mistake, the market will
> correct this (either Exile will change it's strategy or go out of business).
> It is NOT the manufacturers who decide what works and what doesn't in the
> marketplace, IT'S THE MARKETPLACE.
>
> You seem to think that just because a customer desires a certain product,
> they therefore have some GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BUY IT FROM YOU. But then
> again, you are called "Pious Audio". ;)

And besides that, IT'S A ****ING CAR STEREO AMPLIFIER. IT'S NOT LIFE
AND DEATH! GET A GRIP!


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[Pious Audio]

Mosfet: The Rolex analogy is not apt. As Matt pointed out, the
consumers who shop at Wal Mart couldn't afford Rolex even if it were
available to them. Wal Mart has, however, opened test stores that sell
bottles of wine for up to $1500.00, and other high-end merchandise, in
the Dallas area (I think it's Dallas), so who knows? Wouldn't it be
ironic if our next Rolex came from Wal Mart, after all of this?

Matt, you miss the point entirely and don't even seem to be talking
about the same thing I am. First, I can't just sit around and attack
the Elite brand, because it would be both slanderous (I'd probably get
sued), and unethical in my view. I don't know what kind of company you
own, but if you care no more for your customers than to simply say "I
can't get that, go somewhere else or choose from what I've got", then I
don't want to buy any stock when your company goes public.

I'm sure both of you are very impressed by the old adage often
attributed to Henry Ford, "our customer's can have any color they want,
as long as it's black." That is a very macho position, real great.
However, I've built successful companies by giving every customer
exactly what they want whenever humanly possible. I'll stop as soon as
I stop being successful.

[Cyrus]

In article . com>,
"Pious Audio" > wrote:

> Mosfet: The Rolex analogy is not apt. As Matt pointed out, the
> consumers who shop at Wal Mart couldn't afford Rolex even if it were
> available to them. Wal Mart has, however, opened test stores that sell
> bottles of wine for up to $1500.00, and other high-end merchandise, in
> the Dallas area (I think it's Dallas), so who knows? Wouldn't it be
> ironic if our next Rolex came from Wal Mart, after all of this?
>
> Matt, you miss the point entirely and don't even seem to be talking
> about the same thing I am. First, I can't just sit around and attack
> the Elite brand, because it would be both slanderous (I'd probably get
> sued), and unethical in my view. I don't know what kind of company you
> own, but if you care no more for your customers than to simply say "I
> can't get that, go somewhere else or choose from what I've got", then I
> don't want to buy any stock when your company goes public.
>
> I'm sure both of you are very impressed by the old adage often
> attributed to Henry Ford, "our customer's can have any color they want,
> as long as it's black." That is a very macho position, real great.
> However, I've built successful companies by giving every customer
> exactly what they want whenever humanly possible. I'll stop as soon as
> I stop being successful.
>

This reminds me of those ebay auctions that go outrageously high for no
apparent reason.

Is this 'Exile' brand worth this much bickering? A quick google search
turned up a forum reference to their 'subss and amps'. Ahh, reading more
into it the site is mentioned.. and the stuff reminds of more show than
go. With drivers like the 'XTEC' slim line 10" which is a direct ripoff
of about 3 other companies' 10" slimline driver.. except with the raised
X in the dust cap.

It would be interesting to hear the stuff, if it wasn't so hard to get
ahold of.

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*

[MOSFET]

> However, I've built successful companies by giving every customer
> exactly what they want whenever humanly possible. I'll stop as soon as
> I stop being successful.
>
However you do not make the products you sell. That is the crux of the
issue here. I really think this whole thing boils down to the concept you
have that as a retailer you feel you should be able to buy from any
manufacturer, and that once you have bought it for your inventory, it is
none of their business who you sell it to or how you market it.

In the real world, that is simply not the case. Manufacturers can (and ARE)
selective about who distributes their products AND how retailers promote,
display (go to any grocery store to see this in action), and price their
products. You keep telling us how successful you are (and I have NO REASON
to doubt this), but YET AGAIN you seem not to be able to grasp these VERY
basic marketing concepts.

MOSFET

[Pious Audio]

Mosfet, I suppose what I've hinted at but not come right out and said
is this: I've fought corporate types such as yourself for my entire
business career. When I started my trucking company, I fought against
other companies that had sweet heart deals with outfits I needed to
work with. When I started my branding/marketing company, I fought
against the Midwest good ol' boy network to get my slice of the pie. I
opened four automotive shops in six years, and had to fight for a piece
of the City's business, as well as deals with the big fleets. Every
time I went to fight for more business, the type of business that I
wanted, people told me that nobody *has* to work with me and I should
be happy with whatever scraps I'm thrown. I ignored the dissenters
every other time, and that's why my businesses did well. I don't mean
to overstate my case...I'm not a household name, I'm not a
multi-hundred-millionaire, but I've done well, and I didn't do it by
"knowing my place".

[Vivek]

No kidding but you can open another store with another name and sell
exclusive Exile products. This is also one way of getting your hold on both
the worlds (if there are only 2 worlds Exile and other brands).

I bet your exile store will do better than your existing store.
Exile ignores you > Exile gives you rights to sell > you feel like a king >
you put every effort in selling that brand > you close Pious Audio (the last
part was kidding)

"Pious Audio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| Mosfet, I suppose what I've hinted at but not come right out and said
| is this: I've fought corporate types such as yourself for my entire
| business career. When I started my trucking company, I fought against
| other companies that had sweet heart deals with outfits I needed to
| work with. When I started my branding/marketing company, I fought
| against the Midwest good ol' boy network to get my slice of the pie. I
| opened four automotive shops in six years, and had to fight for a piece
| of the City's business, as well as deals with the big fleets. Every
| time I went to fight for more business, the type of business that I
| wanted, people told me that nobody *has* to work with me and I should
| be happy with whatever scraps I'm thrown. I ignored the dissenters
| every other time, and that's why my businesses did well. I don't mean
| to overstate my case...I'm not a household name, I'm not a
| multi-hundred-millionaire, but I've done well, and I didn't do it by
| "knowing my place".
|

[Pious Audio]

Excellent idea Vivek. I'll open a new store called, "Very, Very Kind
Audio".

[MOSFET]

I don't consider myself a "corporate type" but I suppose my experience tends
to suggest that. Besides Phoenix Gold, I worked 10 years in management at
AT&T. IT IS AT AT&T THAT I LEARNED THE IMPORTANCE OF THE DISTRIBUTION
CHAIN. I guess that is why I have been so adamant about this. I have seen
FIRST HAND how losing control of distribution can DESTROY a brand name and
reputation.

I worked for AT&T from 1990 to 2000. In that period, we started selling
large chunks of SDN to what were called "resellers" (Metromedia was one of
the largest). They would go out and "pretend" to be AT&T and sell
long-distance services to businesses and consumers (they would sell parts of
their SDN to these smaller companies and make their own bills to send them).
When these customers had problems they would call MY CALL CENTER (in
Portland we handled ALL AT&T BUSINESS LONG DISTANCE ISSUES west of the
Mississippi at the 1-800-222-0400, which is the number you get when you call
information for AT&T business customer service). Anyway, that was my center
to manage and I had about 100 reps. plus about 30 support staff and techs.
So we start getting these calls from customers with problems and when we
pull up their bill it says Metromedia, and because the customer was
obviously not Metromedia WE COULDN'T HELP THEM (we could only refer them to
Metromedia's AT&T account team, which didn't give a rat's ass about
Metromedia's customer, they just cared about Metromedia). THIS ****ED OFF
LITERALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CUSTOMERS OVER THE YEARS (this IS NOT an
exaggeration). Also, these "resellers" would lie their asses off as far as
rates, what kind of service the customer would be getting, etc., all in the
name of AT&T. It was terrible and ultimately help lead to my quitting. And
look where AT&T is now. It is a mere shadow of what it was 15 years ago.

I hope you see where I'm going with this. AT&T made a HUGE mistake by
deciding to let ANYONE sell it's long-distance service. It DEGRADED the
AT&T name. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY PHONE CALLS I MADE BACK EAST (to the
Harvard MBA types) telling them how terrible this was and what it was doing
to the brand. They never listened because they were making money, who cares
about the customer. Anyway, this is MY RANT. I have some VERY STRONG
OPINIONS ABOUT THIS SUBJECT, TOO.

Fortunately, today I am out of the "rat-race" and I work for my family's
business, Tanner Properties (a property management company).

MOSFET

"Pious Audio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Mosfet, I suppose what I've hinted at but not come right out and said
> is this: I've fought corporate types such as yourself for my entire
> business career. When I started my trucking company, I fought against
> other companies that had sweet heart deals with outfits I needed to
> work with. When I started my branding/marketing company, I fought
> against the Midwest good ol' boy network to get my slice of the pie. I
> opened four automotive shops in six years, and had to fight for a piece
> of the City's business, as well as deals with the big fleets. Every
> time I went to fight for more business, the type of business that I
> wanted, people told me that nobody *has* to work with me and I should
> be happy with whatever scraps I'm thrown. I ignored the dissenters
> every other time, and that's why my businesses did well. I don't mean
> to overstate my case...I'm not a household name, I'm not a
> multi-hundred-millionaire, but I've done well, and I didn't do it by
> "knowing my place".
>

[Matt Ion]

Of course, it goes without saying (one hopes) that you're NOT
insinuating that Pious selling Exile gear would destroy that brand
name... :) ...but only pointing out why some companies may be VERY
particular about who they allow to represent them in the marketplace.

Which brings me back to my point, that causing a public stink over it is
certainly NOT a good way to ingratiate oneself to such a company...

"Sure, you've publicly questioned our marketing methods, but we'd still
love to have you sell our exclusive products. NOT."

MOSFET wrote:
> I don't consider myself a "corporate type" but I suppose my experience tends
> to suggest that. Besides Phoenix Gold, I worked 10 years in management at
> AT&T. IT IS AT AT&T THAT I LEARNED THE IMPORTANCE OF THE DISTRIBUTION
> CHAIN. I guess that is why I have been so adamant about this. I have seen
> FIRST HAND how losing control of distribution can DESTROY a brand name and
> reputation.
>
> I worked for AT&T from 1990 to 2000. In that period, we started selling
> large chunks of SDN to what were called "resellers" (Metromedia was one of
> the largest). They would go out and "pretend" to be AT&T and sell
> long-distance services to businesses and consumers (they would sell parts of
> their SDN to these smaller companies and make their own bills to send them).
> When these customers had problems they would call MY CALL CENTER (in
> Portland we handled ALL AT&T BUSINESS LONG DISTANCE ISSUES west of the
> Mississippi at the 1-800-222-0400, which is the number you get when you call
> information for AT&T business customer service). Anyway, that was my center
> to manage and I had about 100 reps. plus about 30 support staff and techs.
> So we start getting these calls from customers with problems and when we
> pull up their bill it says Metromedia, and because the customer was
> obviously not Metromedia WE COULDN'T HELP THEM (we could only refer them to
> Metromedia's AT&T account team, which didn't give a rat's ass about
> Metromedia's customer, they just cared about Metromedia). THIS ****ED OFF
> LITERALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CUSTOMERS OVER THE YEARS (this IS NOT an
> exaggeration). Also, these "resellers" would lie their asses off as far as
> rates, what kind of service the customer would be getting, etc., all in the
> name of AT&T. It was terrible and ultimately help lead to my quitting. And
> look where AT&T is now. It is a mere shadow of what it was 15 years ago.
>
> I hope you see where I'm going with this. AT&T made a HUGE mistake by
> deciding to let ANYONE sell it's long-distance service. It DEGRADED the
> AT&T name. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY PHONE CALLS I MADE BACK EAST (to the
> Harvard MBA types) telling them how terrible this was and what it was doing
> to the brand. They never listened because they were making money, who cares
> about the customer. Anyway, this is MY RANT. I have some VERY STRONG
> OPINIONS ABOUT THIS SUBJECT, TOO.
>
> Fortunately, today I am out of the "rat-race" and I work for my family's
> business, Tanner Properties (a property management company).
>
> MOSFET
>
> "Pious Audio" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Mosfet, I suppose what I've hinted at but not come right out and said
>>is this: I've fought corporate types such as yourself for my entire
>>business career. When I started my trucking company, I fought against
>>other companies that had sweet heart deals with outfits I needed to
>>work with. When I started my branding/marketing company, I fought
>>against the Midwest good ol' boy network to get my slice of the pie. I
>>opened four automotive shops in six years, and had to fight for a piece
>>of the City's business, as well as deals with the big fleets. Every
>>time I went to fight for more business, the type of business that I
>>wanted, people told me that nobody *has* to work with me and I should
>>be happy with whatever scraps I'm thrown. I ignored the dissenters
>>every other time, and that's why my businesses did well. I don't mean
>>to overstate my case...I'm not a household name, I'm not a
>>multi-hundred-millionaire, but I've done well, and I didn't do it by
>>"knowing my place".
>>
>
>
>


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[MOSFET]

> Of course, it goes without saying (one hopes) that you're NOT insinuating
> that Pious selling Exile gear would destroy that brand name... :) ...but
> only pointing out why some companies may be VERY particular about who they
> allow to represent them in the marketplace.
>
Yes, of course. Exactly. I am just pointing out that this CAN be the
consequence of having no distribution strategy (other than selling to
ANYONE). I AM NOT saying that Pious would run Exile into the ground, but
just pointing out that THOSE KIND OF THINGS DO HAPPEN, and I have seen it
first hand.

MOSFET

[Pious Audio]

I understand your point, Mosfet. I'm not angry with you, and you've
given me some things to think about. I just think the point where we
fail to meet is that Exile is not making a case-by-case decision on
whom to do business with based on the merits of each retailer. They
are making blanket denials of authorization to entire segments of
retailers, and then publicly denouncing those who Exile refuses to work
with as preditors and liars. I think that's a little beyond the idea
of controlling distrubution to protect a brand identity.



MOSFET wrote:
> > Of course, it goes without saying (one hopes) that you're NOT insinuating
> > that Pious selling Exile gear would destroy that brand name... :) ...but
> > only pointing out why some companies may be VERY particular about who they
> > allow to represent them in the marketplace.
> >
> Yes, of course. Exactly. I am just pointing out that this CAN be the
> consequence of having no distribution strategy (other than selling to
> ANYONE). I AM NOT saying that Pious would run Exile into the ground, but
> just pointing out that THOSE KIND OF THINGS DO HAPPEN, and I have seen it
> first hand.
>
> MOSFET

[MOSFET]

They
> are making blanket denials of authorization to entire segments of
> retailers, and then publicly denouncing those who Exile refuses to work
> with as preditors and liars. I think that's a little beyond the idea
> of controlling distrubution to protect a brand identity.
>
I went to their site and I do see what you are talking about. It does seem
like they are badmouthing online retailers.

But I noticed something else while surfing around Google. Exile is sold at
Car Toys. Car Toys is THE LARGEST retailer of higher-end amplifiers in the
country. When I worked at Phoenix Gold, Car Toys was our largest customer
by a HUGE MARGIN (we shipped nearly 1/3 of all product to Car Toys!!!).
They were able to exert TREMENDOUS CONTROL over us because of this (if we
lost the Car Toys account, this would have been a HUGE blow). They could
dictate to us who we sold to and who not to sell to (and Phoenix Gold is NO
SMALL COMPANY).

Don't be too quick to put all the blame on Exile. I know a thing or two
about Car Toys, some things I could get in A LOT OF TROUBLE IF I DIVULGED
HERE as many people know my name is Nick Tanner. With a small company like
Exile, Car Toys is the one who MAKES THE RULES, TRUST ME!!!!

MOSFET

[Pious Audio]

See, brother? I may not be hip to all of the specifics, but I knew
there were some underhanded tactics at work. Whether I'm being shut
out by the manufacturer, or my own bigger competitors, really doesn't
matter to me - I don't like being shut out.

[MOSFET]

"Pious Audio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> See, brother? I may not be hip to all of the specifics, but I knew
> there were some underhanded tactics at work. Whether I'm being shut
> out by the manufacturer, or my own bigger competitors, really doesn't
> matter to me - I don't like being shut out.
>
Yes, I completely understand. From what I remember of Car Toys, I would be
willing to bet my left nut it's Car Toys, not Exile that is preventing Exile
from selling to you. Car Toys HATES online retailers and they have VERY
strict exclusivity clauses for it's vendors.

Car Toys was able to call the shots in SO MANY different ways. For
instance, it is common in the industry to sell discounted product to
employees of the retailers, which makes sense, we want our products (in this
case Phoenix Gold) to be in the cars of those who sell our products (there's
no better sales pitch than saying "you should buy XYZ because that's what I
use in my car"). But get this, Car Toys had negotiated a "special" pricing
schedule for it's employees (much cheaper than for other retailers). We had
a "special Car Toys rate sheet" that applied to Car Toys employees only. I
am probably NOT supposed to be disclosing this so don't tell anybody I said
this. ;) This kind of thing was RAMPANT. I SWEAR, sometimes you forgot
whether you worked for Car Toys or Phoenix Gold!!! They had THAT MUCH
power.

MOSFET

[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
> "Pious Audio" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>See, brother? I may not be hip to all of the specifics, but I knew
>>there were some underhanded tactics at work. Whether I'm being shut
>>out by the manufacturer, or my own bigger competitors, really doesn't
>>matter to me - I don't like being shut out.
>>
>
> Yes, I completely understand. From what I remember of Car Toys, I would be
> willing to bet my left nut it's Car Toys, not Exile that is preventing Exile
> from selling to you. Car Toys HATES online retailers and they have VERY
> strict exclusivity clauses for it's vendors.
>
> Car Toys was able to call the shots in SO MANY different ways. For
> instance, it is common in the industry to sell discounted product to
> employees of the retailers, which makes sense, we want our products (in this
> case Phoenix Gold) to be in the cars of those who sell our products (there's
> no better sales pitch than saying "you should buy XYZ because that's what I
> use in my car"). But get this, Car Toys had negotiated a "special" pricing
> schedule for it's employees (much cheaper than for other retailers). We had
> a "special Car Toys rate sheet" that applied to Car Toys employees only. I
> am probably NOT supposed to be disclosing this so don't tell anybody I said
> this. ;) This kind of thing was RAMPANT. I SWEAR, sometimes you forgot
> whether you worked for Car Toys or Phoenix Gold!!! They had THAT MUCH
> power.

Damn... sounds like a reverse-Microsoft deal.


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[Pious Audio]

Well, it's good info one way or the other. It makes a lot more sense,
too, since Exile doesn't have a lot to gain by shutting anyone out at
this point. It would make more sense for them to sell by any means
possible, now, and start getting more picky as they gain market share.
The Car Toys angle sort of puts everything into place.

[MOSFET]

"Pious Audio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well, it's good info one way or the other. It makes a lot more sense,
> too, since Exile doesn't have a lot to gain by shutting anyone out at
> this point. It would make more sense for them to sell by any means
> possible, now, and start getting more picky as they gain market share.
> The Car Toys angle sort of puts everything into place.

I want you to understand something, however. While I agree that it is wrong
to badmouth online retailers in the way Exile does on their website, I AM
NOT saying that Car Toys is employing a bad, or evil strategy here. In
fact, I think it's DAMN smart.

What car toys is afraid of (well, and all retailers that sell products that
are also sold online for that matter) is that people will go into their
store to LISTEN to, let's say, a set of speakers and then buy it online.
This is a REAL PROBLEM for brick-and-mortar retailers. So if you're Car
Toys, how do you prevent that? You make sure the products you sell ARE NOT
SOLD ONLINE (of course some products like Sony and Pioneer are so ubiquitous
that, of course, they're sold EVERYWHERE and there's nothing you can do
about that). With the higher-end products, this can be a HUGE loss of
revenue. I hope you can understand their dilemma, because IT DOES represent
a real problem these days (their sales reps spend 1/2 hour talking turkey
with a customer only to have him leave and buy the same thing online) So do
I think Car Toys is evil? No.

I mean, for Christ's sake, people here on RAC often give this kind of advice
"go listen to those speakers at your local car stereo store, and then buy
them online". As we all know, with some components, it is truly necessary
to listen first. YET, prices are SO MUCH CHEAPER online. If you're Car
Toys, this is a REAL PROBLEM.

I just wanted to throw this out there. This whole situation is much more
complicated than you might think at first.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

In fact, now that I think about it, it was pretty much EXACTLY the same time
period that Car Toys STOPPED selling Rockford Fosgate and Crutchfield
STARTED selling Rockford Fosgate. Do you think these two events were a
coincidence? Absolutely not. Though I cannot know for sure, I'll bet
(again, my left nut) that Car Toys dropped RF when they decided to sell to
online retailers. Of course, when you ask a Car Toys employee about this
(which I did), they would say that RF has totally gone down-hill quality
wise. But I suspect there WAS MUCH MORE going on behind the scenes.

Perhaps someone better in the know can fill in some of the details regarding
all of this.

MOSFET

[Pious Audio]

Well, when your business model is outdated, it's outdated. Much like
the record companies are going to *have* to change their model from one
of selling CDs to something (whatever) else, many brick-and-mortor
stores are going to find themselves losing to cheaper competition
online. They can fight it if they'd like, but their time would be
better spent figuring out how they can stay competitive.

This is, of course, getting further and further away from a discussion
about car audio, and turning into a discussion about business in the
technology age and all of that. I think, Mosfet, that I have a good
amount of respect for your knowledge of the car audio industry, but I
doubt very much that we'll ever agree on business theory. It's
probably best that we agree to dissagree at this point.

[MOSFET]

Oh, I agree with you that the entire online sales method has forced many
industries to change their business model. The music industry is a very
good example.

But here's the thing, you don't have people going into Tower records,
spending hours with Tower Records' staff, and then leaving to buy music
online. You MUST admit that this is a problem for brick-and-mortar car
audio companies. Just try (for 2 seconds) to put yourself in their
position. Imagine you owned a small car audio brick and mortar. Then
imagine these kids came in all the time, picked your brain about this and
that, listened to everything, and then left to go buy online. How would you
feel about this whole thing then?

By carrying brands that can ONLY be bought at your store (or other
brick-and-mortars), you ensure this does not happen. I UNDERSTAND this
strategy.

Just know, there's some guy out there, just like you, who owns a small car
audio brick-and-mortar. And he has to feed his wife and kids, too.

The notion that the whole business model must change would be a good one,
except for the fact that with car audio products (in particular speakers) it
is VERY necessary to listen to them before you buy.

So, yes, that leaves us at an impasse, doesn't it? You're right, I believe
we will just have to agree to disagree on this one (that doesn't mean I
don't like or support online retailers, in fact I do), it's just I see both
sides of this issue and it is difficult to say who's right and who's wrong.
Though I WILL say that badmouthing a competitor or another way of doing
business is NEVER RIGHT!

MOSFET
"Pious Audio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well, when your business model is outdated, it's outdated. Much like
> the record companies are going to *have* to change their model from one
> of selling CDs to something (whatever) else, many brick-and-mortor
> stores are going to find themselves losing to cheaper competition
> online. They can fight it if they'd like, but their time would be
> better spent figuring out how they can stay competitive.
>
> This is, of course, getting further and further away from a discussion
> about car audio, and turning into a discussion about business in the
> technology age and all of that. I think, Mosfet, that I have a good
> amount of respect for your knowledge of the car audio industry, but I
> doubt very much that we'll ever agree on business theory. It's
> probably best that we agree to dissagree at this point.
>

[MOSFET]

I mean, I'm hard on Car Toys because I KNOW how powerfull they are and that
they can exert TREMENDOUS pressure on small manufacturers so I don't have
much sympathy for Car Toys because I know how they work. Frankly, if Car
Toys loses some business, ha ha.

But it's the small "Mom and Pop" car audio brick-and-mortars that I am
concerned about. They DO NOT have any power and I feel they are the ones
who will ultimately get screwed down the road. But, like you said, business
models eventually change.

So I guess my question to you is given that A) people MUST listen to a
product (like speakers) before they buy and B) people will always buy the
cheapest which means online retailers; how SHOULD the business model look
according to you? Are people just not going to be able to "listen before
they buy" in the future? Or do we have two breeds of car audio products:
those sold online and those sold at brick-and-mortars?

How do you reconcile this?

MOSFET

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

> I've had two customers ask me about Exile's products, and couldn't do
> anything for them because Exile doesn't allow internet sales.

Where did they hear about Exile? Had they spent time at a brick-and-mortar
listening to Exile products while some poor sales rep (who has a wife and
kids, and two dogs and a cat to feed, and a mortgage) spent 2 hours showing
them how great Exile products are, only to have the kids leave and buy
nothing.

Seriously, did you ask them where they learned about Exile? I'll bet it was
from a brick-and-mortar. Again, you see where I'm going with this. There
ARE REASONS for these distribution strategies. I DO SUPPORT ONLINE
RETAILERS! Don't get me wrong. It's just that brick-and-mortar employees
HAVE TO EAT, TOO.

MOSFET

[Pious Audio]

Well, you've asked an interesting question, one that I've had to
consider as my intent is to open a brick-and-mortar store of my own if
the online sales justify it. But first: Yes, it sucks for the
brick-and-motar stores that someone would come in, have a listen, and
then come to me for the purchase. It also sucks for me that I have
averaged about 200 hits, per day, with zero advertising costs, but
certainly haven't made 200 sales per day. Some number of those people
were pricing my goods, taking into account shipping costs, time waiting
for the components to arrive, and the lack of one-on-one, face-to-face
help, and they've went to a brick-and-mortar to make their purchase.
Life's a bitch.

Now, for the new-and-improved business model. Obviously, if I had it
all worked out, I'd charge for my knowledge and make my money as a
consultant. But, part of it has to be to follow the automotive sales
industry. One of the largest automotive groups (the largest privately
owned group) has long operated very differently from the rest of the
industry, and they've thrived. While publicly traded groups, such as
Sonic and Auto Nation, have had to own 400 or more dealerships to hit
the $10 billion annual sales mark, the third largest company has hit
that number with less than 100 dealers. They did it by realizing that
they weren't selling cars, cars are more-or-less a loss leader these
days. This group makes it's money almost solely in service and F&I
(finance and insurance).

A large brick and mortar can offer services that I simply cannot --
credit, installation, even repair. Warranties will have to become a
much bigger slice of the profit pie. Sort of like Xerox isn't in the
copier business, it's in the cartridge business, brick-and-motar stores
will have to make their money by perfecting the sales of tacked-on
items, while decreasing their mark-up on individual components
significantly. There is no reason why the brick-and-morars cannot be
more competitive with my pricing, anyway. If I take 30%, then they
could take 50% and really be pretty close to me in pricing, except on
the most expensive items. If, rather than taking 100%, or 150% mark
up, they took a more reasonable amount, and got excellent penetration
on extended warranties, interest on credit accounts, installs, and the
like...well, they'd be alright.

A lot of the problem that brick and mortars have is in customer
service. They are selling extremely complex products to a consumer who
often has no idea what they are doing. Most of these retailers behave
in a very condescending manner which makes non-audiophiles/electrical
engineers, extremely uncomfortable. Why is, for instance, a Pyle worse
than an Alpine? Many consumers who just want good sound but don't want
to go back to college to get it, are more comfortable reading reviews
online, and buying from me, because they know I won't snear at them as
they are buying the $70.00 Sony XPlod. That's an easily rectified
situation on the part of the physical retailers, but it does involve a
change in philosophy from believing that they are providing excellent
products to an informed consumer, to believing that they are offering
the products that the customer wants at a fair price. Circuit City and
the like sort of get this, but they go to the wrong extreme, and offer
zero technical assistance in most cases (in my experience).

Obviously, there was no quick way to answer this question. But, the
physical retailers will have to accept that, 1) they don't sell car
stereos, they sell expertise and services -- they must learn to
monetize the expertise and find more services to offer (extend more
credit, offer installation *assistance* for a fee, whatever). 2) All
things being equal, their customer service should be far superior to
mine, they have the wonderful capability of looking their customer in
the eye and physically showing and explaining components, a failure to
capitalize on that opportunity is like sending me a check. 3) Above
all, the industry will have to become more-and-more segmented.

On that third point, we agree. As you've said, we should all be
finding our niche, our own products, look for the diamonds in the rough
and help those companies build their name in exchange for exclusive
deals (yeah, I realize the neccessity of exlusive deals, I'm only
opposed when I'm shut out. That's not hypocritical, it's business).
One of my ideas was to work with small companies which are still
manufacturing in the United States, even if that means working with
guys building amplifiers in their basements. Nationalism never goes
completely out of style, and here in the Midwest, I could drive a good
amount of service to a physical location just from having a selection
of American made goods, even if they wound up purchasing something else
from me. I'd be working in the interest of my market (helping keep
American jobs in America, and all of that), and my customers would
support me for that (hopefully). My particular plan may, or may not,
be workable or good. That's not the point, of course; the point is
that I'd find my niche, something that would be difficult for anyone,
online or off, to intrude on and suppliment that by offering various
and mind-boggling arrays of add-on services and warranties and finance
options, all in an effort to squeeze every potential cent out of each
sell.

The little mom and pop stores, by the way, don't really stand a chance.
Between mega-stores and online stores, there's really no room for
someone with $20,000 in inventory and a suite in a strip mall to do
much business. They'd be better served by closing shop and moving
online (there's surprisingly little competition in cyberspace), or
looking for investors to expand their capabilities. They could, and I
just thought of this, consider going into partnership with larger
outfits to operate as a sort of boutique outlet...a "Wal Mart
Neighborhood Store" sort of approach, for those opposed to dealing with
big huge concerns, but also hesitant to shop online. The partnership
would offer them the funds to expand services, while also keeping them
from being crushed between the bohemoths and us predatory online
concerns;). Consolidation, it's the wave of the future.

By the way, Mosfet, when are you going to offer your marketing
expertise to me, pro bono? I am a struggling entrepreneur, after all.