Possible to recombine crossed over (split) component speaker wires?

[Randy]

I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my car. But the
crossovers lie within the front and rear amps. I really don't want to
have to replace the amps. The quotes I've seen thus far are about
$2000 to replace just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear
solution $3000 or more. That's nuts.

Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter and woofer in
order to regenerate the original unsplit signal? I suspect this may
do interesting things to impedance, but it seems like it ought to be
possible with some fiddling (and a lot cheaper than reamping).

BTW, it's a 2002 BMW 3 series coupe with the Harmon Kardon 12 speaker
abomination.

Thanks,

Randy

[Geoff@home]

Randy wrote:
> I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my car. But the
> crossovers lie within the front and rear amps. I really don't want to
> have to replace the amps. The quotes I've seen thus far are about
> $2000 to replace just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear
> solution $3000 or more. That's nuts.
>
> Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter and woofer in
> order to regenerate the original unsplit signal?

No.

geoff

[Tony F]

I've heard that the newer BMWs are incredibly difficult to upgrade specific
items, like the speakers. I'm not sure to what extent and which years and
models are affected. I believe there are some aftermarket products out
there that specifically cater to all the newer cars out there that are
similarly stubborn when it comes to factory integration. Sorry I'm not much
help, maybe someone else can chime in?

Tony


--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear
Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe

[Mr.T]

"Geoff@home" > wrote in message
...
> Randy wrote:
> > I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my car. But the
> > crossovers lie within the front and rear amps. I really don't want to
> > have to replace the amps. The quotes I've seen thus far are about
> > $2000 to replace just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear
> > solution $3000 or more. That's nuts.
> >
> > Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter and woofer in
> > order to regenerate the original unsplit signal?
>
> No.

Not directly connect the wires maybe, but it's quite easy to mix the two
signals and feed them into a single amp. At it's simplest, a couple of 5
cent resistors would work as a mixer. It should be easier to derive a
complete signal direct from the head unit though.

If the OP told us exactly what is wrong with the current system and what he
hopes to achieve with the "upgrade", it would be possible to speculate
further. It seems to me that the original system is designed to be better
than standard fare for car systems, so doing anything on the cheap is
unlikely to be an improvement. Remember also that a large part of the
expense quoted is probably for the labor involved.

Remember also that all two way or three way car speakers require a frequency
split anyway, and it's usually a simple matter to remove the crossover
capacitor if you just want to replace speakers and use the current amps. Of
course checking for a suitable crossover frequency for the new drivers would
be required.

MrT.

[Arny Krueger]

"Randy" > wrote in message


> I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my
> car. But the crossovers lie within the front and rear
> amps.

There are probably some equalizers in the system, someplace.

> I really don't want to have to replace the amps.

You might have to replace the head unit, too if you want to erase all the
vestiges of your OEM car system.

> The quotes I've seen thus far are about $2000 to replace
> just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear
> solution $3000 or more. That's nuts.

It is all about costs and benefits.

> Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter
> and woofer in order to regenerate the original unsplit
> signal?

Anything can be done with enough money and time. In this case it seems like
futility.

>I suspect this may do interesting things to
> impedance, but it seems like it ought to be possible with
> some fiddling (and a lot cheaper than reamping).

OEM car systems aren't necessarily simple any more.

> BTW, it's a 2002 BMW 3 series coupe with the Harmon
> Kardon 12 speaker abomination.

Well, in their way they tried.

However, consider the cost of the car to you. If you're a real music lover a
car with a bad stereo is a broken car.

[jakdedert]

Geoff@home wrote:
> Randy wrote:
>> I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my car. But the
>> crossovers lie within the front and rear amps. I really don't want to
>> have to replace the amps. The quotes I've seen thus far are about
>> $2000 to replace just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear
>> solution $3000 or more. That's nuts.
>>
>> Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter and woofer in
>> order to regenerate the original unsplit signal?
>
> No.
>
This question gets asked in various forms all of the time. The answer
was no to the last guy who asked. He asked again. The answer was no.

It's still 'NO'!

To the OP: the best you can hope for--without replacing almost
everything--is to upgrade the speakers themselves. You have to do some
research in order to be successful. You'll have to know the crossover
points for the existing system, and the power output of each amplifier
in the system, as well as the sizes and impedances of the existing
drivers. Then you'll have to find drivers (speakers) which match those
specifications; only of higher quality. You may also be able to
'massage' the placement and acoustic environment of the enclosures.

Your best bet is to find an autosound contractor who is familiar with
the system and the car. This is not a DIY situation, unless you have a
lot of knowledge about cars, about audio...and are willing to research
and experiment (and spend money).

jak

> geoff
>
>
>

[Matt Ion]

Mr.T wrote:
> "Geoff@home" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Randy wrote:
>>
>>>I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my car. But the
>>>crossovers lie within the front and rear amps. I really don't want to
>>>have to replace the amps. The quotes I've seen thus far are about
>>>$2000 to replace just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear
>>>solution $3000 or more. That's nuts.
>>>
>>>Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter and woofer in
>>>order to regenerate the original unsplit signal?
>>
>>No.
>
>
> Not directly connect the wires maybe, but it's quite easy to mix the two
> signals and feed them into a single amp. At it's simplest, a couple of 5
> cent resistors would work as a mixer. It should be easier to derive a
> complete signal direct from the head unit though.

Randy said that the crossovers are internal to the amps - the signal is
apparently already summed going into the amps.

And a word of warning, adding resistors AFTER the amp, the mixing would
work IN THEORY but they'd burn up in about 10 seconds once you actually
put any power through them.



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[jakdedert]

Matt Ion wrote:
> Mr.T wrote:
>> "Geoff@home" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Randy wrote:
>>>
>>>> I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my car. But the
>>>> crossovers lie within the front and rear amps. I really don't want to
>>>> have to replace the amps. The quotes I've seen thus far are about
>>>> $2000 to replace just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear
>>>> solution $3000 or more. That's nuts.
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter and woofer in
>>>> order to regenerate the original unsplit signal?
>>>
>>> No.
>>
>>
>> Not directly connect the wires maybe, but it's quite easy to mix the two
>> signals and feed them into a single amp. At it's simplest, a couple of 5
>> cent resistors would work as a mixer. It should be easier to derive a
>> complete signal direct from the head unit though.
>
> Randy said that the crossovers are internal to the amps - the signal is
> apparently already summed going into the amps.
>
> And a word of warning, adding resistors AFTER the amp, the mixing would
> work IN THEORY but they'd burn up in about 10 seconds once you actually
> put any power through them.
>
Not to mention; what a crappy kludge! Amplifying and splitting a signal
to problably 100's of watts, then attenuating and recombining it
again...only to amplify and (probably) split it again.

Madness...

jak

>
>
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>
>

[[email protected]]

Matt Ion wrote:
> Mr.T wrote:
> Randy said that the crossovers are internal to the amps - the signal is
> apparently already summed going into the amps.
>
> And a word of warning, adding resistors AFTER the amp, the mixing would
> work IN THEORY but they'd burn up in about 10 seconds once you actually
> put any power through them.

Uh, no they would not.. Let's say the amps are, oh, 100 watts
a piece into 4 ohms. And let's say your sum,ing network has
an effective input impedance of 1 kOhm. That means at clipping,
those poor resistors will have to withstand a mighty torrent of
power totalling 0.4 watts. ! watt resistors would remain cool to
the touch at full power.

This is apart from whether or not such a project makes sense
in other ways.

[MOSFET]

I'm sorry, but for the life of me I just don't understand what the Sam hill
is going on here.

Everybody has been chiming in like this is a really basic question, and
maybe I'm going to feel like a real dummy afterwards, but the best Professor
I ever had used to say the only dumb questions are the ones that don't get
asked. If the signal is full-bandwidth before it goes into one of these
X-overs, why don't you just use THAT signal. I am COMPLETELY unclear as to
why COMBINING is necessary AT ALL! Is there something I missed? I reread
the OP four times just to be sure.

MOSFET

"Randy" > wrote in message
...
>I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my car. But the
>crossovers lie within the front and rear amps. I really don't want to have
>to replace the amps. The quotes I've seen thus far are about $2000 to
>replace just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear solution $3000 or
>more. That's nuts.
>
> Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter and woofer in
> order to regenerate the original unsplit signal? I suspect this may do
> interesting things to impedance, but it seems like it ought to be possible
> with some fiddling (and a lot cheaper than reamping).
>
> BTW, it's a 2002 BMW 3 series coupe with the Harmon Kardon 12 speaker
> abomination.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Randy

[David Nebenzahl]

MOSFET spake thus:

> I'm sorry, but for the life of me I just don't understand what the Sam hill
> is going on here.
>
> Everybody has been chiming in like this is a really basic question, and
> maybe I'm going to feel like a real dummy afterwards, but the best Professor
> I ever had used to say the only dumb questions are the ones that don't get
> asked. If the signal is full-bandwidth before it goes into one of these
> X-overs, why don't you just use THAT signal. I am COMPLETELY unclear as to
> why COMBINING is necessary AT ALL! Is there something I missed? I reread
> the OP four times just to be sure.

Maybe you missed that part right near the top: "But the crossovers lie
within the front and rear amps." So what he has is a bi-amp (or tri-amp)
situation. Obviously, there's nothing to be gained by messsing around
with crossovers at all.

He doesn't want to scrap the amps; what the guy seems to need are new
speakers to replace what he feels are ****ty ones. Why would that be so
difficult? Speakers are made in about a zillion variations.


--
Pierre, mon ami. Jetez encore un Scientologiste
dans le baquet d'acide.

- from a posting in alt.religion.scientology titled
"France recommends dissolving Scientologists"

[TimPerry]

"MOSFET" > wrote in message
...
> I'm sorry, but for the life of me I just don't understand what the Sam
hill
> is going on here.
>
> Everybody has been chiming in like this is a really basic question, and
> maybe I'm going to feel like a real dummy afterwards, but the best
Professor
> I ever had used to say the only dumb questions are the ones that don't get
> asked. If the signal is full-bandwidth before it goes into one of these
> X-overs, why don't you just use THAT signal. I am COMPLETELY unclear as
to
> why COMBINING is necessary AT ALL! Is there something I missed? I reread
> the OP four times just to be sure.
>
> MOSFET

often one has to read between the lines (make assumptions) when not enough
information is given.

in this case my assumption is that poster dosent like the sound of his
biamplified speakers and wants to replace them with full range speakers.

he wants to hook the amplifier outputs together instead of properly
enginering the system. he dosent want to hear that this will probably blow
the amplifiers up.

the other assumption is that the full range signal is low level and would
require another amp to drive the speakers (which the poster doesn't want to
buy, install / retrofit into his vehicle somehow.



>
> "Randy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my car. But the
> >crossovers lie within the front and rear amps. I really don't want to
have
> >to replace the amps. The quotes I've seen thus far are about $2000 to
> >replace just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear solution $3000
or
> >more. That's nuts.
> >
> > Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter and woofer in
> > order to regenerate the original unsplit signal? I suspect this may do
> > interesting things to impedance, but it seems like it ought to be
possible
> > with some fiddling (and a lot cheaper than reamping).
> >
> > BTW, it's a 2002 BMW 3 series coupe with the Harmon Kardon 12 speaker
> > abomination.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Randy
>
>

[Matt Ion]

wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>>Mr.T wrote:
>>Randy said that the crossovers are internal to the amps - the signal is
>>apparently already summed going into the amps.
>>
>>And a word of warning, adding resistors AFTER the amp, the mixing would
>>work IN THEORY but they'd burn up in about 10 seconds once you actually
>>put any power through them.
>
>
> Uh, no they would not.. Let's say the amps are, oh, 100 watts
> a piece into 4 ohms. And let's say your sum,ing network has
> an effective input impedance of 1 kOhm. That means at clipping,
> those poor resistors will have to withstand a mighty torrent of
> power totalling 0.4 watts. ! watt resistors would remain cool to
> the touch at full power.

Oohhh I see, you're talking about summing the output of the existing
amps down to line level to, what... drive additional amps? Cuz they
ain't gonna drive the speakers anymore at that point.

You're right, it's not a silly idea after all! <shaking head>





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[Matt Ion]

MOSFET wrote:
> I'm sorry, but for the life of me I just don't understand what the Sam hill
> is going on here.
>
> Everybody has been chiming in like this is a really basic question, and
> maybe I'm going to feel like a real dummy afterwards, but the best Professor
> I ever had used to say the only dumb questions are the ones that don't get
> asked. If the signal is full-bandwidth before it goes into one of these
> X-overs, why don't you just use THAT signal. I am COMPLETELY unclear as to
> why COMBINING is necessary AT ALL! Is there something I missed? I reread
> the OP four times just to be sure.

It's right there in his second sentence: "...the crossovers lie within
the front and rear amps."

Apparently these amps provide only the band-split output. One would
gather that the head unit only outputs line-level. He could possibly
tap into that, but that would require additional amps, and I get the
impression he's trying to do this with the existing amps.


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[Matt Ion]

David Nebenzahl wrote:
> MOSFET spake thus:
>
>> I'm sorry, but for the life of me I just don't understand what the Sam
>> hill is going on here.
>>
>> Everybody has been chiming in like this is a really basic question,
>> and maybe I'm going to feel like a real dummy afterwards, but the best
>> Professor I ever had used to say the only dumb questions are the ones
>> that don't get asked. If the signal is full-bandwidth before it goes
>> into one of these X-overs, why don't you just use THAT signal. I am
>> COMPLETELY unclear as to why COMBINING is necessary AT ALL! Is there
>> something I missed? I reread the OP four times just to be sure.
>
>
> Maybe you missed that part right near the top: "But the crossovers lie
> within the front and rear amps." So what he has is a bi-amp (or tri-amp)
> situation. Obviously, there's nothing to be gained by messsing around
> with crossovers at all.
>
> He doesn't want to scrap the amps; what the guy seems to need are new
> speakers to replace what he feels are ****ty ones. Why would that be so
> difficult? Speakers are made in about a zillion variations.

That's what I'm thinking... I don't see why a set of two-way components
wouldn't do the trick, or even a set of coaxials, and just remove the
built-in capacitor crossover and wire the woofer and tweeter directly.


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[David Nebenzahl]

TimPerry spake thus:

> "MOSFET" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I'm sorry, but for the life of me I just don't understand what the Sam hill
>>is going on here.
>>
>>Everybody has been chiming in like this is a really basic question, and
>>maybe I'm going to feel like a real dummy afterwards, but the best
>>I ever had used to say the only dumb questions are the ones that don't get
>>asked. If the signal is full-bandwidth before it goes into one of these
>>X-overs, why don't you just use THAT signal. I am COMPLETELY unclear as to
>>why COMBINING is necessary AT ALL! Is there something I missed? I reread
>>the OP four times just to be sure.
>
> often one has to read between the lines (make assumptions) when not enough
> information is given.
>
> in this case my assumption is that poster dosent like the sound of his
> biamplified speakers and wants to replace them with full range speakers.

No need to read "between the lines" at all. Just read his last sentence:

"BTW, it's a 2002 BMW 3 series coupe with the Harmon Kardon 12 speaker
abomination."

Obviously, he doesn't like the *speakers*.


--
Pierre, mon ami. Jetez encore un Scientologiste
dans le baquet d'acide.

- from a posting in alt.religion.scientology titled
"France recommends dissolving Scientologists"

[Vivek]

BINGO!! This is the solution. Is the problem poster still here after this
long discussion.

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:reW5g.109660$7a.23856@pd7tw1no...
| That's what I'm thinking... I don't see why a set of two-way components
| wouldn't do the trick, or even a set of coaxials, and just remove the
| built-in capacitor crossover and wire the woofer and tweeter directly.
|
|
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| http://www.avast.com

[Mr.T]

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:nxM5g.106758$7a.73218@pd7tw1no...
> Mr.T wrote:
> > "Geoff@home" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Randy wrote:
> >>
> >>>I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my car. But the
> >>>crossovers lie within the front and rear amps. I really don't want to
> >>>have to replace the amps. The quotes I've seen thus far are about
> >>>$2000 to replace just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear
> >>>solution $3000 or more. That's nuts.
> >>>
> >>>Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter and woofer in
> >>>order to regenerate the original unsplit signal?
> >>
> >>No.
> >
> >
> > Not directly connect the wires maybe, but it's quite easy to mix the two
> > signals and feed them into a single amp. At it's simplest, a couple of 5
> > cent resistors would work as a mixer. It should be easier to derive a
> > complete signal direct from the head unit though.
>
> Randy said that the crossovers are internal to the amps - the signal is
> apparently already summed going into the amps.


I think he meant it was split *before* going into the existing amps.

> And a word of warning, adding resistors AFTER the amp, the mixing would
> work IN THEORY but they'd burn up in about 10 seconds once you actually
> put any power through them.

Where did I say you are putting any power through them? Notice I said "mix
the two
signals and feed them into a single amp".

Best to read what was actually written.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"jakdedert" > wrote in message
.. .
> Not to mention; what a crappy kludge! Amplifying and splitting a signal
> to problably 100's of watts, then attenuating and recombining it
> again...only to amplify and (probably) split it again.

I agree, and already said as much. But why on earth combine the signals if
you wanted to split them again? I stated how to avoid that, or didn't you
read that far?

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:reW5g.109660$7a.23856@pd7tw1no...
> That's what I'm thinking... I don't see why a set of two-way components
> wouldn't do the trick, or even a set of coaxials, and just remove the
> built-in capacitor crossover and wire the woofer and tweeter directly.

That was suggested by me already. Presumably the OP hadn't thought of it, or
lacks sufficient knowledge. I guess that's why he asked for help!
Unfortunately expecting a useful answer, when you don't tell people exactly
what you are trying to achieve, is expecting too much IMO.

MrT.

[jakdedert]

Matt Ion wrote:
<snip>
>
> That's what I'm thinking... I don't see why a set of two-way components
> wouldn't do the trick, or even a set of coaxials, and just remove the
> built-in capacitor crossover and wire the woofer and tweeter directly.
>
One would have to know the xover frequencies of both the original system
and the replacement drivers. If they do not match, it's not going to
sound any better than the original drivers...which were designed (or at
least matched) for the system.

Given that the OP can *afford* a BMW (unless daddy bought it for him),
he can probably either afford to live with the system as is, or hire a
professional to retro it.

jak

>
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>
>

[jakdedert]

Mr.T wrote:
> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message
> news:reW5g.109660$7a.23856@pd7tw1no...
>> That's what I'm thinking... I don't see why a set of two-way components
>> wouldn't do the trick, or even a set of coaxials, and just remove the
>> built-in capacitor crossover and wire the woofer and tweeter directly.
>
> That was suggested by me already. Presumably the OP hadn't thought of it, or
> lacks sufficient knowledge. I guess that's why he asked for help!
> Unfortunately expecting a useful answer, when you don't tell people exactly
> what you are trying to achieve, is expecting too much IMO.
>
> MrT.


You have absolutely no guarantee that the above will work with any give
set of replacement speakers. The crossover point is important! Get it
too low or high, and the individual drivers in the speaker will not be
happy...resulting in blown speakers or just crappy sound.

jak

[Matt Ion]

jakdedert wrote:
> Mr.T wrote:
>
>> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message
>> news:reW5g.109660$7a.23856@pd7tw1no...
>>
>>> That's what I'm thinking... I don't see why a set of two-way components
>>> wouldn't do the trick, or even a set of coaxials, and just remove the
>>> built-in capacitor crossover and wire the woofer and tweeter directly.
>>
>>
>> That was suggested by me already. Presumably the OP hadn't thought of
>> it, or
>> lacks sufficient knowledge. I guess that's why he asked for help!
>> Unfortunately expecting a useful answer, when you don't tell people
>> exactly
>> what you are trying to achieve, is expecting too much IMO.
>>
>> MrT.
>
>
>
> You have absolutely no guarantee that the above will work with any give
> set of replacement speakers. The crossover point is important! Get it
> too low or high, and the individual drivers in the speaker will not be
> happy...resulting in blown speakers or just crappy sound.

The sound may not be ideal, but I doubt the crossover point is going to
be so far off as to blow up components. Obviously finding out what the
actual crossover points are and choosing matching drivers would be
ideal, but if that's not possible, it should work fine with most sets of
drivers. At worst, it'll turn out not sounding any better than before
he started.



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[Matt Ion]

jakdedert wrote:

> Given that the OP can *afford* a BMW (unless daddy bought it for him),
> he can probably either afford to live with the system as is, or hire a
> professional to retro it.

This is true...


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[Matt Ion]

Mr.T wrote:
> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message
> news:nxM5g.106758$7a.73218@pd7tw1no...
>
>>Mr.T wrote:
>>
>>>"Geoff@home" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Randy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I need to upgrade the crappy component speakers in my car. But the
>>>>>crossovers lie within the front and rear amps. I really don't want to
>>>>>have to replace the amps. The quotes I've seen thus far are about
>>>>>$2000 to replace just the front speakers and amp, and a front/rear
>>>>>solution $3000 or more. That's nuts.
>>>>>
>>>>>Is it possible to connect the two wires for the tweeter and woofer in
>>>>>order to regenerate the original unsplit signal?
>>>>
>>>>No.
>>>
>>>
>>>Not directly connect the wires maybe, but it's quite easy to mix the two
>>>signals and feed them into a single amp. At it's simplest, a couple of 5
>>>cent resistors would work as a mixer. It should be easier to derive a
>>>complete signal direct from the head unit though.
>>
>>Randy said that the crossovers are internal to the amps - the signal is
>>apparently already summed going into the amps.
>
>
>
> I think he meant it was split *before* going into the existing amps.

Well if that's what he MEANT, he didn't SAY it very well. The exact
words were, "But the crossovers lie WITHIN (emphasis mine) the front and
rear amps."

> Best to read what was actually written.

*ahem*


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[jakdedert]

Matt Ion wrote:
> jakdedert wrote:
>> Mr.T wrote:
>>
>>> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message
>>> news:reW5g.109660$7a.23856@pd7tw1no...
>>>
>>>> That's what I'm thinking... I don't see why a set of two-way components
>>>> wouldn't do the trick, or even a set of coaxials, and just remove the
>>>> built-in capacitor crossover and wire the woofer and tweeter directly.
>>>
>>>
>>> That was suggested by me already. Presumably the OP hadn't thought of
>>> it, or
>>> lacks sufficient knowledge. I guess that's why he asked for help!
>>> Unfortunately expecting a useful answer, when you don't tell people
>>> exactly
>>> what you are trying to achieve, is expecting too much IMO.
>>>
>>> MrT.
>>
>>
>>
>> You have absolutely no guarantee that the above will work with any
>> give set of replacement speakers. The crossover point is important!
>> Get it too low or high, and the individual drivers in the speaker will
>> not be happy...resulting in blown speakers or just crappy sound.
>
> The sound may not be ideal, but I doubt the crossover point is going to
> be so far off as to blow up components. Obviously finding out what the
> actual crossover points are and choosing matching drivers would be
> ideal, but if that's not possible, it should work fine with most sets of
> drivers. At worst, it'll turn out not sounding any better than before
> he started.
>
If it would work with 'most' sets of drivers, it would work with the
ones he has....

I've actually tried this before. Many years ago (mid 70's) Sanyo put
out a set of matched biamp units and speakers. The customer (I was an
autosound dealer/installer at the time) was set on using his Jenson
coaxials in the system. Unfortunately, the coaxes had piezo tweeters,
and the Sanyo crossed over at something like 300 Hz (my fault...shoulda'
read the specs and refused).

The result was NOT pretty. There was a big hole in the response between
the xover point and the point where the piezos took over. Furthermore,
trying to make the piezos produce the lower frequencies made for extreme
distortion.

I had to rip it all out and install a full-range amp.

With any random set of two or three way speakers, this could sound good
or be a nightmare.

Not recommended.

jak

>
>
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>

[jakdedert]

Matt Ion wrote:
> jakdedert wrote:
>> Mr.T wrote:
>>
>>> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message
>>> news:reW5g.109660$7a.23856@pd7tw1no...
>>>
>>>> That's what I'm thinking... I don't see why a set of two-way components
>>>> wouldn't do the trick, or even a set of coaxials, and just remove the
>>>> built-in capacitor crossover and wire the woofer and tweeter directly.
>>>
>>>
>>> That was suggested by me already. Presumably the OP hadn't thought of
>>> it, or
>>> lacks sufficient knowledge. I guess that's why he asked for help!
>>> Unfortunately expecting a useful answer, when you don't tell people
>>> exactly
>>> what you are trying to achieve, is expecting too much IMO.
>>>
>>> MrT.
>>
>>
>>
>> You have absolutely no guarantee that the above will work with any
>> give set of replacement speakers. The crossover point is important!
>> Get it too low or high, and the individual drivers in the speaker will
>> not be happy...resulting in blown speakers or just crappy sound.
>
> The sound may not be ideal, but I doubt the crossover point is going to
> be so far off as to blow up components. Obviously finding out what the
> actual crossover points are and choosing matching drivers would be
> ideal, but if that's not possible, it should work fine with most sets of
> drivers. At worst, it'll turn out not sounding any better than before
> he started.
>
If it would work with 'most' sets of drivers, it would work with the
ones he has....

I've actually tried this before. Many years ago (mid 70's) Sanyo put
out a set of matched biamp units and speakers. The customer (I was an
autosound dealer/installer at the time) was set on using his Jenson
coaxials in the system. Unfortunately, the coaxes had piezo tweeters,
and the Sanyo crossed over at something like 300 Hz (my fault...shoulda'
read the specs and refused).

The result was NOT pretty. There was a big hole in the response between
the xover point and the point where the piezos took over. Furthermore,
trying to make the piezos produce the lower frequencies made for extreme
distortion.

I had to rip it all out and install a full-range amp.

With any random set of two or three way speakers, this could sound good
or be a nightmare.

Not recommended.

jak

>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 0618-1, 05/03/2006
> Tested on: 5/3/2006 11:53:37 AM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
>

[Mr.T]

"jakdedert" > wrote in message
. ..
> >> That's what I'm thinking... I don't see why a set of two-way components
> >> wouldn't do the trick, or even a set of coaxials, and just remove the
> >> built-in capacitor crossover and wire the woofer and tweeter directly.
> >
> > That was suggested by me already. Presumably the OP hadn't thought of
it, or
> > lacks sufficient knowledge. I guess that's why he asked for help!
> > Unfortunately expecting a useful answer, when you don't tell people
exactly
> > what you are trying to achieve, is expecting too much IMO.
>
>
> You have absolutely no guarantee that the above will work with any give
> set of replacement speakers.
>The crossover point is important!

Which is why I *already* said he should check the crossover frequencies
first.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:3476g.114006$7a.100117@pd7tw1no...
> > You have absolutely no guarantee that the above will work with any give
> > set of replacement speakers. The crossover point is important! Get it
> > too low or high, and the individual drivers in the speaker will not be
> > happy...resulting in blown speakers or just crappy sound.
>
> The sound may not be ideal, but I doubt the crossover point is going to
> be so far off as to blow up components.


Could happen if the crossover point is too low. Easy to blow a tweeter with
too much midrange.


>Obviously finding out what the
> actual crossover points are and choosing matching drivers would be
> ideal, but if that's not possible, it should work fine with most sets of
> drivers. At worst, it'll turn out not sounding any better than before
> he started.

No, at worst it will sound worse than before he started and cost him money
to boot.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:Q576g.114677$WI1.71373@pd7tw2no...
> >>Randy said that the crossovers are internal to the amps - the signal is
> >>apparently already summed going into the amps.
> >
> > I think he meant it was split *before* going into the existing amps.
>
> Well if that's what he MEANT, he didn't SAY it very well.

Agreed.

>The exact words were, "But the crossovers lie WITHIN (emphasis mine)
>the front and rear amps."

Yes, but what do you think that means? The only way I can read it is to
assume the "amps" have an active crossover inbuilt. In other words the
signal is split BEFORE being separately amplified, NOT "summed" before being
amplified as you stated.

In any case the signal from the head unit will already be full range, and
the OP obviously has no clue what he is doing, or even trying to achieve.
That is probably why he hasn't come back I guess.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:Aig6g.118014$7a.106976@pd7tw1no...
> Mr.T wrote:
> > "Matt Ion" > wrote in message
> > news:Q576g.114677$WI1.71373@pd7tw2no...
> >
> >>>>Randy said that the crossovers are internal to the amps - the signal
is
> >>>>apparently already summed going into the amps.
> >>>
> >>>I think he meant it was split *before* going into the existing amps.
> >>
> >>Well if that's what he MEANT, he didn't SAY it very well.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> >>The exact words were, "But the crossovers lie WITHIN (emphasis mine)
> >>the front and rear amps."
> >
> >
> > Yes, but what do you think that means? The only way I can read it is to
> > assume the "amps" have an active crossover inbuilt. In other words the
> > signal is split BEFORE being separately amplified, NOT "summed" before
being
> > amplified as you stated.
>
> You misread. I meant it's a summed signal that's being piped into the
> amps.

No, it's just a full band signal that has not been split *OR* summed.


>The amps may contain either active or passive crossovers
> (probably the former, but either way, it's immaterial to this problem).

A crossover prior to amplification is an active crossover by definition.


> What it comes down to is, if he want's to merely swap out speakers, he
> needs to use coaxials or components; anything else means adding and/or
> replacing amps, since the existing amps don't provide a full-range output.

Why on earth would he want to use a single cone speaker anyway?
Let's face it, he has no idea what he is doing, and uninformed speculation
serves no purpose..

MrT.

[David Nebenzahl]

Mr.T spake thus:

> "Matt Ion" > wrote in message
> news:Aig6g.118014$7a.106976@pd7tw1no...
>
>>Mr.T wrote:
>>
>>>"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
>>>news:Q576g.114677$WI1.71373@pd7tw2no...
>>>
>>>>>>Randy said that the crossovers are internal to the amps - the signal is
>>>>>>apparently already summed going into the amps.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think he meant it was split *before* going into the existing amps.
>>>>
>>>>Well if that's what he MEANT, he didn't SAY it very well.
>>>
>>>Agreed.
>>>
>>>>The exact words were, "But the crossovers lie WITHIN (emphasis mine)
>>>>the front and rear amps."
>>>
>>> Yes, but what do you think that means? The only way I can read it
>>> is to assume the "amps" have an active crossover inbuilt. In
>>> other words the signal is split BEFORE being separately
>>> amplified, NOT "summed" before being amplified as you stated.
>>
>>You misread. I meant it's a summed signal that's being piped into the
>>amps.
>
> No, it's just a full band signal that has not been split *OR* summed.
>
>>The amps may contain either active or passive crossovers
>>(probably the former, but either way, it's immaterial to this problem).
>
> A crossover prior to amplification is an active crossover by definition.
>
>>What it comes down to is, if he want's to merely swap out speakers, he
>>needs to use coaxials or components; anything else means adding and/or
>>replacing amps, since the existing amps don't provide a full-range output.
>
> Why on earth would he want to use a single cone speaker anyway?
> Let's face it, he has no idea what he is doing, and uninformed speculation
> serves no purpose..

Where on earth are you getting this? I thought the O.P.'s message was
pretty clear. He has a bi-amped (or possibly tri-amped) system, with the
crossovers in the amplifier. He doesn't like what he feels are crappy
speakers, which he seems perfectly well aware are separate woofers,
tweeters (and maybe midranges). He wants to replace the speakers. What
part of that don't you get?

Sheesh, the smug superiority level in here is almost as high as the
reading comprehension level seems to be low.


--
Pierre, mon ami. Jetez encore un Scientologiste
dans le baquet d'acide.

- from a posting in alt.religion.scientology titled
"France recommends dissolving Scientologists"

[Mr.T]

"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:ueq6g.122523$7a.64204@pd7tw1no...
> >>What it comes down to is, if he want's to merely swap out speakers, he
> >>needs to use coaxials or components; anything else means adding and/or
> >>replacing amps, since the existing amps don't provide a full-range
output.
> >
> >
> > Why on earth would he want to use a single cone speaker anyway?
>
> Are you just being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse? Obviously he
> wanted a single wire he could connect to a set of coaxials because he
> didn't realize he could remove the built-in crossover.


Who's being obtuse, it was me who first suggested he do just that, prior to
your first reply.
My sarcastic comment above is a pefectly apt response to your statement :
"anything else means adding and/or replacing amps, since the existing amps
don't provide a full-range output"

Tell us again why he would require a full range output, and please take into
account *ALL* that I posted in my first reply to the OP prior to your
"contribution" to the discussion. I think that one stated that two summing
resistors prior to an amplifier, would "burn up in about 10 seconds" :-)

MrT.