Bang for buck after sounddeadening

[Body Roll]

In terms of bang for buck what's the best next step after installing
sound deadening materials
into the doors of my Mazda Protege?
I currently have 4 factory speakers, original wiring and San Jose MP41
head unit.

Front speakers? Speaker wiring? subwoofer?
How much of a difference would having 6 speakers vs 4 make?
Being a cheapskate could I move the factory speakers to the rear doors?
Do I need low pass crosovers for the rear doors also or just for the
speakers on the rear deck?

I checked the faq here:
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/

but I have no guidance whatsoever for what speakers to get. Would $50
Jensen speakers from Target
do fine? Do I need to spend $150? Do I need to spend more? What's the
benefit?

Sorry, I'm pretty much a total newbie.

[Body Roll]

wrote:
> Just a few thoughts after reading your post:
>
> 1. Speakers IMO should be where you spend, oops....INVEST the the the
> biggest part of your budget.
>
> 2. Having invested in quality speakers, you won't need 6 of them
> (unless you drive a Hummer), so the next logical step (IMO) is to put
> your $ into an amp.

So you're saying I should not keep adding sound deadener into the rear
doors
because I won't need speakers there? The reason I'm asking is that when
I
installed the B-Quiet in the fronts the vibrations were mostly quelled
but
I could swear the interior does not feel a bit quieter with the
deadener added
to the front doors.

> 3. After that, consider your sub and amp that will drive it.
>
> Lots of amps have sufficient x-overs for the average audiophile. Wiring

You mean they are not tailored to the speakers, but rather you can
select the cutoff
frequencies? I don't crank up the volume very high. You sure I need an
amp before
a sub?

> (unless you are using el-cheapo ****) usually cannot be discerned by
> the average listener. I wouldn't spend, make that over spend on high
> priced wiring. Thats me though.

I have the wiring that came with the car.
>
> Listen to lots of speakers. You are ultimately the best judge of what
> sounds good to you. I have found in my experience that price is a good
> indicator of quality.

Hmm, last time I went to the local store they all sounded the same to
me.
Is it a good indicator I should not change anything? :-)

>
> One last thought...I wouldn't put anything but coaxials in the rear. My
> opinion is that since they are for "fill" only, coaxials s/b
> sufficient.

Being a cheapskate I was planning on replacing the fronts only with
coaxials.
There are some Polk Audio 6x9 woofers (not even a coaxials) on the rear
shelf (they came with the car and they sound good enough to me).
I though that was enough if I cut everything below 2500 hz to the rears
to keep the audio image up front per FAQ above. That's why I asked
about the crossovers.

> Again....all just IMO but if you spend a considerable sum on sound

Just about $100 on cheap asphalt based B-Quiet I think...
So far it sticks. Glad I haven't used a heat gun after reading that
inspiration review of different materials though.

> deadening, DON'T go out and buy Jensens dude!

I'll skip the Jensens. Thank you!

[MOSFET]

> Front speakers?

Oh my word, yes! Absolutely front speakers. The front speakers of your
system are the most important element in terms of sound quality. NOTHING
will improve the qwuality of your sound more than a good pair of front
speakers. As was already said, this is also where the largest part of your
budget should be spent (though, this may be debatable if you are into
stricly rap and "boom" music). Why are the front speakers so important?
Well, to be honest the reason is that in ANY sound system (car, home or
otherwise), speakers are ALWAYS the weak link in the audio chain. A $10,000
pair of Martin Logan speakers will produce more THD (total harmonic
distortion) at 100 watts than a $120 Sony stereo reciever. Those $10k
speakers will also not have as flat a frequency response, either. In fact,
a $10 portable disc player will have better audio performance specifications
than just about ANY speaker system available. Because of this, speakers
tend to vary greatly in their tonal quality and dynamic capability. Trust
me, I've had to learn this the hard way once, make the sacrafices NOW and
buy the BEST front speakers you can! Worry about everything else later.
Your ears will THANK you.

MOSFET


Speaker wiring? subwoofer?
> How much of a difference would having 6 speakers vs 4 make?
> Being a cheapskate could I move the factory speakers to the rear doors?
> Do I need low pass crosovers for the rear doors also or just for the
> speakers on the rear deck?
>
> I checked the faq here:
> http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/
>
> but I have no guidance whatsoever for what speakers to get. Would $50
> Jensen speakers from Target
> do fine? Do I need to spend $150? Do I need to spend more? What's the
> benefit?
>
> Sorry, I'm pretty much a total newbie.
>

[Body Roll]

> I've had to learn this the hard way once, make the sacrafices NOW and
> buy the BEST front speakers you can! Worry about everything else later.

I went to an electronics store (a chain) and aside from a 3 way Pioneer
6.5" coaxial
and some $82 Kenwood 6.5" component system everything was terrible.
Worse than
the factory speakers I have in front. I wonder if a stereo shop would
have
them in enclosures of some kind so that I'd get an idea what kind of
improvement
I'd get in my car. All non round stuff sounded terrible for some
reason. And none of
the coaxials seem to be better than "ok", I don't think I'm too
demanding.
I have a $200 4.1 Altec lansing computer speekers and home and that
pleases me enough.

My problem is now, aside from the speaker selection still looming
ahead, is how to accomodate
6 1/2" in 6x8 openings I have in my car. I'm open for cutting
suggestion while I'm going thru
the FAQ more thoroughly. I suppose the installation of component
speakers is better left
to a stereo shop? The DIY prospect of routing the wires from the
tweeter if I mount it in the pillar
next to the windshield intimidates me a bit. I'll read the FAQ for the
tweeter location suggestions I guess.

Why do coaxials, especially non round ones sound so bad?

Thank you again!

[MOSFET]

> Why do coaxials, especially non round ones sound so bad?
>
> Thank you again!
>
I know it's often said in this group, but LISTEN to as many different
speaker systems with YOUR type of music as you can before buying. It sounds
like you are doing that.

I would avoid coaxials if possible. Although there is nothing inherently
wrong with the principle of coaxially mounted speakers, in actual execution
most coaxials just don't sound that good (it seems you are discovering
this), and are not built with the highest standards, IMHO. I would try to
go with separates. Yes, I would consider modifying your door location so
you can fit a 6.5" midbass driver (though there are some good separates that
use just 6" midbass drivers, JL for one). I use an inexpensive pair of
tin-snips and they work GREAT at cutting the sheet metal of most doors. All
you need to do is widen your 6x8" opening a bit. Also, check out
Crutchfield at http://www.crutchfield.com/ for adaptor rings that will
accommodate 6.5" speakers (that way you have a fairly airtight fit).

As far as mounting your tweeters on your A-pillars, though this would give
you a nice, high soundstage, I prefer to have my tweeters as close to my
midbass driver as possible. This helps avoid any phase issues between your
midbass and tweeter that might cause cancellation effects. It also just
helps to have the sound coming from one place (a point source) to preserve
the stereo effect. I have actually had my tweeters mounted in my A-pillars
with another car I had in the past, a '95 Maxima and I used the A-pillars as
there were already factory spots for them (with the "premium" Bose system).
With my current car, my tweeters are located low in the doors, angled up.
Although this does lower my soundstage (compared to the A-pillar
installation), it DEFINITELY improves my imaging. with the A-pillar tweeter
set-up, there was never a solid center image, the soundstage was always
"blurred".

Anyway, this is my $.02,

MOSFET

[Body Roll]

Section 5.4 Where should I mount my speakers? here
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/
is empty. So I have to ask: since there is no socket for the tweeter by
the hole for woofers in the door how tweeter should be mounted? Should
I just drill a few holes in the plastic part of the door skin, glue the
tweeter to the plastic and call it a day?

[MOSFET]

> So you're saying I should not keep adding sound deadener into the rear
> doors
> because I won't need speakers there? The reason I'm asking is that when
> I
> installed the B-Quiet in the fronts the vibrations were mostly quelled
> but
> I could swear the interior does not feel a bit quieter with the
> deadener added
> to the front doors.

I have applied sound dampening to both the front and back doors of my Subaru
Forester. I do use rear-fill out of the back doors so sound-deadening was
important for those speakers. The improvement to the sound quality was
REMARKABLE, especially the increase in the midbass region.

But like you, I noticed ABSOLUTELY no difference in road noise levels, and
that was after doing BOTH the front and rear doors. I'm sure if measured
with a precise SPL meter (something I forgot to do), there likely would have
been a difference in ambient road noise, but hell if I could hear a
difference. I guess, all in all, though my forester is not what you would
call a "luxury car", it was pretty quite to begin with. I think it would
take doing the floor, ceiling and firewall to get a real noticeable
difference.

If anyone has a recommendation on where the next good place to add Dynamat
after the doors and rear-hatch of my Forester, I would appreciate any
advice. Thanks.

MOSFET

[Body Roll]

> If anyone has a recommendation on where the next good place to add Dynamat
> after the doors and rear-hatch of my Forester, I would appreciate any
> advice. Thanks.

The FAQ on the dynamat site says the floor. But I'll be doing the hood
and the firewall on
my Protege and second stage on the doors because it's easier than
tearing the carpet out from
the floor :^)
SecondSkin is on order. Haven't touched the doors on my Outback Sport
since they
don't vibrate at all. But, then, all the bass goes to the stock sub
under the passenger seat,
so maybe that's why. Or maybe it's battleship grade steel versus
tinfoil issue.

Subjectively though the sound in Subaru with the original 6.1 system
seems better, but flatter (if that's the word). Maybe there is no sound
deadener installed in the doors?
The car is too new for me to tear anything apart and have no remorse
afterwards. I tend
to break fasteners and lose bits.

[MOSFET]

Should
> I just drill a few holes in the plastic part of the door skin, glue the
> tweeter to the plastic and call it a day?
>
I think I see your dilemma. In my forester, the speaker grill is large and
I was able to mount the tweeters right next to the midbass drivers and the
grill covers the entire thing. It sounds like this is not possible with
your car. In that case, I would consider mounting the tweeter in the
sail-panel. This will get your tweeter much closer to the woofer than an
A-pillar mounting, yet it will look good. Generally the sail-panel is
located directly above the woofer location which will help equalize
path-lengths. Most sail panels will easily accommodate a 1" tweeter. I
did this once for my wife's car, and it was really easy. I just took the
plastic sail panel off, cut the hole the size I needed, and the grill stayed
in place over the tweeter because there was a piece of metal that looks
kinda-like a piece of backstrap that screws to the back of the tweeter that
holds it in place. It looked really stock when done. Also, this way when
you go to sell the car, you have not mangled the door panel with a big ugly
1" hole. If you want to take the speakers out of the car, you only have to
replace the small plastic sail-panel.

MOSFET

[Body Roll]

MOSFET wrote:

> holds it in place. It looked really stock when done. Also, this way when
> you go to sell the car, you have not mangled the door panel with a big ugly
> 1" hole. If you want to take the speakers out of the car, you only have to
> replace the small plastic sail-panel.
>
Hmm, the sail panel on Protege is really shallow, probably 1/3",
10-12mm at most.

But a bigger problem is the 6x8 to 6.5 adapter. I found these:

6x9 to 6.5 and 6.5 to 5.25 but not 6x8 to 6.5
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-XuGPXvuNBJf/cgi-bin/ProdSearch.asp?search=speaker+adapter&pm=


Are speaker baffles useful? Shallow or regular?

[MOSFET]

> Hmm, the sail panel on Protege is really shallow, probably 1/3",
> 10-12mm at most.

Yes, on all cars it will be really shallow, but with most tweeters, you
won't need much room at all. I mean, the tweeter itself is sort of half-way
out of the hole anyway, so even a 1/3" gap may be enough. I know I didn't
have more than 1/2" on my wife's car, yet it worked just fine.

> But a bigger problem is the 6x8 to 6.5 adapter. I found these:
>
> 6x9 to 6.5 and 6.5 to 5.25 but not 6x8 to 6.5
> http://www.crutchfield.com/S-XuGPXvuNBJf/cgi-bin/ProdSearch.asp?search=speaker+adapter&pm=

Yes, obviously you cannot make a 6x8 (or even a 6x9 hole) accomodate a 6.5"
speaker. You will, of course, have to cut some of the sheet metal to widen
those holes (I'm sorry if I was unclear about this before). Of course, you
could try to go with a 6" midbass driver instead. Though they are more rare
than 6.5", there are a number of speaker makers who design drivers in that
size (JL for one). If the exact adaptor you need is not available, you can
always fabricate your own using Dynamat and so on. They key things with
mounting speakers is that A) they must be securely mounted to the sheet
metal of the doors and B) you want to create an airtight seal around them.
Once you mount a pair of 6.5" in the 6x8 space, you can use Dynamat to cover
the excess space around the speaker. In other words, you don't necessarily
need the adaptor rings. Again, you just need to make sure the speaker is
securely mounted to the door.

MOSFET