A Sub Box Question ?

[MagicTime]

Hello Everyone !!!

Well I have a few questions about a sub box (S), or not for some subs.

#1 There are places around here that are selling these no name boxes with no
name speakers. A example is my last setup I did buy a box from pep boys and
it came as a full range box and all I did was cut the holes to fit the 2 10"
subs I was using. Is there anything wrong or could be a problem on doing
this again or should I stay with pre-built for the type of sub ?

#2 Depending on the setup and how the subs will be used is it better or a
show effect to mount the subs upside down to the trunk body so the sound is
aimed into the body of the car or truck ?

#3 I am not sure they do this everywhere, but the home depot by me and a few
retailers will cut the material I wan to the shape, size, and type I would
like. They will even nail/screw everything if I like. Yes I will be paying
extra, but would this be a good second options to consider and any
suggestions on what to watch out for ?

#4 Is there any advantage of use a box to host 1 sub or more when
considering what type of box to look towards on subs ?

#5 Dose anyone know of a website or anything that would help on what type of
meterial I should consider to use if I have the box made to what I would
like ?

Thanks in advance !

[Rob Kulp]

"MagicTime" > wrote in message
news:xOGdnVFUfZHq0KzZnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
> Hello Everyone !!!
>
> Well I have a few questions about a sub box (S), or not for some subs.
>
> #1 There are places around here that are selling these no name boxes with
> no name speakers. A example is my last setup I did buy a box from pep boys
> and it came as a full range box and all I did was cut the holes to fit the
> 2 10" subs I was using. Is there anything wrong or could be a problem on
> doing this again or should I stay with pre-built for the type of sub ?

You either need to get a box made specifically for the sub, build your own
based on the manufacturers recommendation for your listening goals, or find
a premade box that matches the manufacturers recommendation.


> #2 Depending on the setup and how the subs will be used is it better or a
> show effect to mount the subs upside down to the trunk body so the sound
> is aimed into the body of the car or truck ?

It's going to depend on way too many factors to determine the best way. In
some cases the subs in a vehicle is for show, and others it's for the best
sound quality.

> #3 I am not sure they do this everywhere, but the home depot by me and a
> few retailers will cut the material I wan to the shape, size, and type I
> would like. They will even nail/screw everything if I like. Yes I will be
> paying extra, but would this be a good second options to consider and any
> suggestions on what to watch out for ?

I would make sure your measurements are accurate. Keep in mind, Home Depot
will not do "precision" cuts because they don't want to be responsible for
their own work.
I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF.

>
> #4 Is there any advantage of use a box to host 1 sub or more when
> considering what type of box to look towards on subs ?

It doesn't matter if you use one box or seperate boxes. I would just make
sure the subs are in their own seperate enclosure. Their are a couple
advantages to this, but outside of sound quality if you blow one sub, the
other sub will still sound good. If you have 2 subs sharing the same air
chamber, if you blow one sub, the other sub is in an enclosure that is too
big and it won't sound good.

>
> #5 Dose anyone know of a website or anything that would help on what type
> of meterial I should consider to use if I have the box made to what I
> would like ?

See my response to question #3.

> Thanks in advance !
>
>

[Doug Kanter]

"Rob Kulp" > wrote in message
. ..

> I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF.

No - nice 3/4" plywood.

[Austin Becker]

NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases. Not
car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.

--
- AUSTIN BECKER
"Doug Kanter" > wrote in message
...
> "Rob Kulp" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
> > I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF.
>
> No - nice 3/4" plywood.
>
>

[Brandonb]

Doug Kanter wrote:
> "Rob Kulp" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>
>>I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF.
>
>
> No - nice 3/4" plywood.
>
>
Eh? Why plywood?

Brandonb

[Mister.Lull]

I've used 3/4 inch MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard), 3/4 inch Particle
Board, and 1/2 inch Particle Board - and 3/4 inch MDF was BY FAR the
best!!!!!

That's my two cents.

~Mister.Lull

[Captain Howdy]

All you need is cardboard and some white glue.


In article om>,
"Mister.Lull" > wrote:
>I've used 3/4 inch MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard), 3/4 inch Particle
>Board, and 1/2 inch Particle Board - and 3/4 inch MDF was BY FAR the
>best!!!!!
>
>That's my two cents.
>
>~Mister.Lull
>

[Doug Kanter]

"Austin Becker" > wrote in message
news:n9hYf.664706$084.556563@attbi_s22...
> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
> because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases.
> Not
> car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.


Let me get this straight. You're saying plywood is more flexible than MDF,
so you should use it for home systems because you want a cabinet that
flexes???

[Doug Kanter]

"Brandonb" > wrote in message
...
>
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>> "Rob Kulp" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>
>>>I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF.
>>
>>
>> No - nice 3/4" plywood.
> Eh? Why plywood?
>
> Brandonb

Rigidity without brittleness.

[Cyrus]

In article >,
"Doug Kanter" > wrote:

> "Brandonb" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Doug Kanter wrote:
> >> "Rob Kulp" > wrote in message
> >> . ..
> >>
> >>
> >>>I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF.
> >>
> >>
> >> No - nice 3/4" plywood.
> > Eh? Why plywood?
> >
> > Brandonb
>
> Rigidity without brittleness.
>
>

Eh, Its not my carpet. One man's trash is another's treasure.

My vote is for mdf as well, 1" preferably. If it doesn't work, you can
always hit somebody with it.

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*

[cntrain]

Both plywood and MDF have advantages. Plywood has a much higher modulus
of elasticity (close to 1600-1700psi versus around 300psi for MDF).
This basically means what we already know... Plywood is STIFFER. This
holds great merit for large enclosures in order to resist bending and
flexing. However, MDF has a higher density (750 kg/m^3 versus around
550 kg/m^3 for plywood). This translates into a higher ability to
reflect sound waves and act as a natural sound deadener, which
translates into more of your bass being translated through air waves
instead of losing it through mechanical vibration. For car audio and
smaller home audio enclosures, I like MDF. For large home enclosures or
large walls for subs, plywood is a better choice. Just expect to need
some extra sound deadening with the plywood! I hope this helps!


--
cntrain

[95Honda]

Austin Becker Wrote:
> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
> because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases.
> Not
> car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.

How did you figure this out! LOL!

Honestly, if you have no clue what you are talking about, and you
don't, please do not give false information to the other members of
this forum.


--
95Honda

[MagicTime]

Hello Everyone !!!

Thanks for the answers.

[Doug Kanter]

"95Honda" > wrote in message
...
>
> Austin Becker Wrote:
>> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
>> because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases.
>> Not
>> car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.
>
> How did you figure this out! LOL!
>
> Honestly, if you have no clue what you are talking about, and you
> don't, please do not give false information to the other members of
> this forum.

Agreed. Everything I've ever read about speaker design says that the box
should be as neutral as it's possible to make it. NOT flexible, but rigid.

[GregS]

In article >, 95Honda > wrote:
>
>Austin Becker Wrote:
>> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
>> because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases.
>> Not
>> car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.
>
>How did you figure this out! LOL!
>
>Honestly, if you have no clue what you are talking about, and you
>don't, please do not give false information to the other members of
>this forum.

Plywood is usually prefered in portable opperation, because it
much easier to transport. Thats about it. Its also easier
to buy, or should I say carry out of the store. I even like buying stuff
thinner than 3/4 inch for the same reason. MDF is preffered
in all other areas. I have never used MDF myself. Its
too heavy.

greg

[GregS]

In article >, (GregS) wrote:
>In article >, 95Honda
> > wrote:
>>
>>Austin Becker Wrote:
>>> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
>>> because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases.
>>> Not
>>> car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.
>>
>>How did you figure this out! LOL!
>>
>>Honestly, if you have no clue what you are talking about, and you
>>don't, please do not give false information to the other members of
>>this forum.
>
>Plywood is usually prefered in portable opperation, because it
>much easier to transport. Thats about it. Its also easier
>to buy, or should I say carry out of the store. I even like buying stuff
>thinner than 3/4 inch for the same reason. MDF is preffered
>in all other areas. I have never used MDF myself. Its
>too heavy.

Well my old preference was particle board, for one reason, cost.
Was not light weight either.

greg

[Austin Becker]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Home theater is meant to be a warm
inviting tone created by resonance of the speaker as well as it's enclosure.
Home theater incorporates sounds that are not used in car audio that would
be harsh. That is why many high end home theaters use the same materials
that are used for building drums. Maple, Birch, Mahogany and the likes.
Those woods are VERY strong, but resonate as well. MDF does not resonate
well, which is why it is choice for car audio.

--
- AUSTIN BECKER
"Doug Kanter" > wrote in message
...
> "Austin Becker" > wrote in message
> news:n9hYf.664706$084.556563@attbi_s22...
> > NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
> > because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases.
> > Not
> > car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.
>
>
> Let me get this straight. You're saying plywood is more flexible than MDF,
> so you should use it for home systems because you want a cabinet that
> flexes???
>
>

[Austin Becker]

DUDE, PLYWOOD IS FLEXIBLE! MDF IS RIGID! far more rigid than any natural
wood! holy ****. Dude, I know enough about car audio to know that natural
woods are not choice for car audio enclosures. If they were, than many more
would be build of natural wood, and not MDF. Do some research geniuses.
I've taken the accoustical physics course (One of the only ones offered in
the states through Texas State University (previously Southwest Texas State
University and offers the only accredited Sound Recording Technology
bachelor degree in the Southwest United States). We've done the testing to
see why.

--
- AUSTIN BECKER
"Doug Kanter" > wrote in message
...
> "95Honda" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Austin Becker Wrote:
> >> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
> >> because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases.
> >> Not
> >> car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.
> >
> > How did you figure this out! LOL!
> >
> > Honestly, if you have no clue what you are talking about, and you
> > don't, please do not give false information to the other members of
> > this forum.
>
> Agreed. Everything I've ever read about speaker design says that the box
> should be as neutral as it's possible to make it. NOT flexible, but rigid.
>
>

[Austin Becker]

MDF is heavy because it is very strong. Far stronger than particle board.
that stuff is horrible.

--
- AUSTIN BECKER
"GregS" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
(GregS) wrote:
> >In article >, 95Honda
> > > wrote:
> >>
> >>Austin Becker Wrote:
> >>> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
> >>> because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases.
> >>> Not
> >>> car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.
> >>
> >>How did you figure this out! LOL!
> >>
> >>Honestly, if you have no clue what you are talking about, and you
> >>don't, please do not give false information to the other members of
> >>this forum.
> >
> >Plywood is usually prefered in portable opperation, because it
> >much easier to transport. Thats about it. Its also easier
> >to buy, or should I say carry out of the store. I even like buying stuff
> >thinner than 3/4 inch for the same reason. MDF is preffered
> >in all other areas. I have never used MDF myself. Its
> >too heavy.
>
> Well my old preference was particle board, for one reason, cost.
> Was not light weight either.
>
> greg

[Austin Becker]

MDF is not brittle either. When a box is constructed properly you can drop
it off a roof, and it will be fine.

--
- AUSTIN BECKER
"Captain Howdy" > wrote in message
...
> All you need is cardboard and some white glue.
>
>
> In article om>,
> "Mister.Lull" > wrote:
> >I've used 3/4 inch MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard), 3/4 inch Particle
> >Board, and 1/2 inch Particle Board - and 3/4 inch MDF was BY FAR the
> >best!!!!!
> >
> >That's my two cents.
> >
> >~Mister.Lull
> >

[Austin Becker]

Here's a few quick lessons on car audio enclosures. NOT home theater, but
car audio.
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxes.asp
http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-j9n8Hudz6S4/reviews/20030701/build_box.html?page=2
(at the bottom, click #2, then read #5)
http://www.electronixwarehouse.com/education/enclosures/main.htm (read about
3/4 way down)
http://www.ehow.com/how_4073_build-subwoofer-box.html (the first thing it
says!!!!!)
http://www.termpro.com/articles/buildbox.html (read 'Material Selection')
http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=46 ('materials' section)

Do I really need to keep going? All i did is go to google and type in
'build car audio enclosures'. Keep using your plywood for car audio, but I
assure you, MDF is choice for the application.


--
- AUSTIN BECKER
"Austin Becker" > wrote in message
news:7pEYf.908249$xm3.330849@attbi_s21...
> DUDE, PLYWOOD IS FLEXIBLE! MDF IS RIGID! far more rigid than any natural
> wood! holy ****. Dude, I know enough about car audio to know that
natural
> woods are not choice for car audio enclosures. If they were, than many
more
> would be build of natural wood, and not MDF. Do some research geniuses.
> I've taken the accoustical physics course (One of the only ones offered in
> the states through Texas State University (previously Southwest Texas
State
> University and offers the only accredited Sound Recording Technology
> bachelor degree in the Southwest United States). We've done the testing
to
> see why.
>
> --
> - AUSTIN BECKER
> "Doug Kanter" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "95Honda" > wrote in
message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Austin Becker Wrote:
> > >> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home
Theater
> > >> because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most
cases.
> > >> Not
> > >> car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.
> > >
> > > How did you figure this out! LOL!
> > >
> > > Honestly, if you have no clue what you are talking about, and you
> > > don't, please do not give false information to the other members of
> > > this forum.
> >
> > Agreed. Everything I've ever read about speaker design says that the box
> > should be as neutral as it's possible to make it. NOT flexible, but
rigid.
> >
> >
>
>

[Austin Becker]

I don't know why I responded to that message to post this. It was aimed
elsewhere, but I'm drinkin'! :) That's what happens when you feel awful I
guess ?

--
- AUSTIN BECKER
"Austin Becker" > wrote in message
news:nqEYf.666350$084.466426@attbi_s22...
> MDF is not brittle either. When a box is constructed properly you can
drop
> it off a roof, and it will be fine.
>
> --
> - AUSTIN BECKER
> "Captain Howdy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > All you need is cardboard and some white glue.
> >
> >
> > In article om>,
> > "Mister.Lull" > wrote:
> > >I've used 3/4 inch MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard), 3/4 inch Particle
> > >Board, and 1/2 inch Particle Board - and 3/4 inch MDF was BY FAR the
> > >best!!!!!
> > >
> > >That's my two cents.
> > >
> > >~Mister.Lull
> > >
>
>

[Doug Kanter]

All wood is flexible to an extent. What controls that flexibility is the
design of the box, including the internal bracing.


"Austin Becker" > wrote in message
news:7pEYf.908249$xm3.330849@attbi_s21...
> DUDE, PLYWOOD IS FLEXIBLE! MDF IS RIGID! far more rigid than any natural
> wood! holy ****. Dude, I know enough about car audio to know that
> natural
> woods are not choice for car audio enclosures. If they were, than many
> more
> would be build of natural wood, and not MDF. Do some research geniuses.
> I've taken the accoustical physics course (One of the only ones offered in
> the states through Texas State University (previously Southwest Texas
> State
> University and offers the only accredited Sound Recording Technology
> bachelor degree in the Southwest United States). We've done the testing
> to
> see why.
>
> --
> - AUSTIN BECKER
> "Doug Kanter" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "95Honda" > wrote in
>> message
>> ...
>> >
>> > Austin Becker Wrote:
>> >> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
>> >> because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases.
>> >> Not
>> >> car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.
>> >
>> > How did you figure this out! LOL!
>> >
>> > Honestly, if you have no clue what you are talking about, and you
>> > don't, please do not give false information to the other members of
>> > this forum.
>>
>> Agreed. Everything I've ever read about speaker design says that the box
>> should be as neutral as it's possible to make it. NOT flexible, but
>> rigid.
>>
>>
>
>

[GregS]

In article <n9hYf.664706$084.556563@attbi_s22>, "Austin Becker" > wrote:
>NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater
>because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases. Not
>car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.
>

You never want to have resonance. The only resonant home speakers are
cheap home speakers. MDF would be best for kick panels and
mounting frames for door speakers. For a bass cab, the only thing thats
important is that is does not make audible sounds and is not too lossy.
At sub frequencies, resonance is usually not a problem untill you
take it into the hundreds of Hz range else you have a serious construction
problem.

greg

[MOSFET]

> You never want to have resonance. The only resonant home speakers are
> cheap home speakers.

Oh, I beg to differ, sir.

Resonance in speaker cabinets is ACTUALLY a concept employed by some VERY
HIGH-END speaker makers. The concept being that when reproducing acoustic
music, having speakers resonate (like a musical instrument) will produce a
warmer, more life-like sound (don't argue the merits of this concept with
me, I'm just telling you the philosophy).

I have a pair of Michael Green Designs Tower speakers. I LOVE these
speakers, they are the most life-like speakers I have ever heard. They are
actually DESIGNED to resonate some. They have four sets of knobs connected
to wires inside that adjust the tension of the cabinet (much like a guitar
string). By adjusting the tension of these wires, you adjust the amount of
resonance the cabinet produces. This does, indeed, effect the tonal
character of the sound, and as I said before, these speakers sound
EXQUISITE. Obviously, this is something that should ONLY be employed
through careful engineering, not accidental resonance. Of course, for
conventional enclosures (like my subwoofers in my car), resonance is almost
always a bad thing as it represents wasted energy (sound energy converted to
mechanical vibration instead of, well, sound).

MOSFET

[lnh]

Oh, man, that's original. And wrong. I don't want resonant speakers. I
want flat, neutral speakers so I can hear everything. While you are
resonating, break out that EQ to give a perfect smile curve for happier
music.

Resonanace = Harmonics = Distortion!

"Sounds not used in car stereo"??? Your definition of speakers would
have sounds not heard in nature (or at least in the original recording).

And these "drum" woods do not resonate in the thickness you would use to
build a speaker properly. And no one uses solid woods - speaker cabinets
with the fancy woods are merely a veneer over the MDF.


Oh, wait, is this an extended April fools joke?? You got me with the
whole ignorant, resonant speaker enclosure rant. Good one!!


In article <zmEYf.666349$084.77747@attbi_s22>,
"Austin Becker" > wrote:

> Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Home theater is meant to be a warm
> inviting tone created by resonance of the speaker as well as it's enclosure.
> Home theater incorporates sounds that are not used in car audio that would
> be harsh. That is why many high end home theaters use the same materials
> that are used for building drums. Maple, Birch, Mahogany and the likes.
> Those woods are VERY strong, but resonate as well. MDF does not resonate
> well, which is why it is choice for car audio.

[Austin Becker]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=resonance

Oddly enough, I didn't see distortion on there anywhere.

--
- AUSTIN BECKER
"lnh" > wrote in message
...
> Oh, man, that's original. And wrong. I don't want resonant speakers. I
> want flat, neutral speakers so I can hear everything. While you are
> resonating, break out that EQ to give a perfect smile curve for happier
> music.
>
> Resonanace = Harmonics = Distortion!
>
> "Sounds not used in car stereo"??? Your definition of speakers would
> have sounds not heard in nature (or at least in the original recording).
>
> And these "drum" woods do not resonate in the thickness you would use to
> build a speaker properly. And no one uses solid woods - speaker cabinets
> with the fancy woods are merely a veneer over the MDF.
>
>
> Oh, wait, is this an extended April fools joke?? You got me with the
> whole ignorant, resonant speaker enclosure rant. Good one!!
>
>
> In article <zmEYf.666349$084.77747@attbi_s22>,
> "Austin Becker" > wrote:
>
> > Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Home theater is meant to be a
warm
> > inviting tone created by resonance of the speaker as well as it's
enclosure.
> > Home theater incorporates sounds that are not used in car audio that
would
> > be harsh. That is why many high end home theaters use the same
materials
> > that are used for building drums. Maple, Birch, Mahogany and the likes.
> > Those woods are VERY strong, but resonate as well. MDF does not
resonate
> > well, which is why it is choice for car audio.

[Doug Kanter]

Fact: Speaker enclosures are supposed to be as neutral as possible. That
means rigid. Any good speaker design book will tell you that. Matter of
fact, some drive home the point by saying that if it were practical to do
so, cement would be an ideal material. The purpose of a cabinet is to
contain air and give the components a place to hang onto. There are no
exceptions.

[Doug Kanter]

"MOSFET" > wrote in message
m...
>> You never want to have resonance. The only resonant home speakers are
>> cheap home speakers.
>
> Oh, I beg to differ, sir.
>
> Resonance in speaker cabinets is ACTUALLY a concept employed by some VERY
> HIGH-END speaker makers. The concept being that when reproducing acoustic
> music, having speakers resonate (like a musical instrument) will produce a
> warmer, more life-like sound (don't argue the merits of this concept with
> me, I'm just telling you the philosophy).
>
> I have a pair of Michael Green Designs Tower speakers. I LOVE these
> speakers, they are the most life-like speakers I have ever heard. They
> are actually DESIGNED to resonate some. They have four sets of knobs
> connected to wires inside that adjust the tension of the cabinet (much
> like a guitar string). By adjusting the tension of these wires, you
> adjust the amount of resonance the cabinet produces. This does, indeed,
> effect the tonal character of the sound, and as I said before, these
> speakers sound EXQUISITE.

Interesting idea, your speakers, but maybe a photographic analogy should be
injected into this discussion. In one of his books, Ansel Adams reminded the
reader that there's no single version of accuracy, because every visual
medium injects some of its own qualities. So, he tweaked the photographic
process to emphasize the things in a picture which HE felt were most vital.
The same is true of speakers - everyone who listens will have an opinion. I
play bass guitar, so the first thing I listen for is accurate, tight bass.
But then, I have to keep in mind that when listening to live performances,
there are infinite variations due to the type of bass, the type of strings,
the amplification equipment, and the room.

If your speakers are adjustable, where's the right adjustment? For which
instrument? Bass? Cello? Deep piano & organ notes? It's a matter of taste.

[GregS]

In article >, "MOSFET" > wrote:
>> You never want to have resonance. The only resonant home speakers are
>> cheap home speakers.
>
>Oh, I beg to differ, sir.
>
>Resonance in speaker cabinets is ACTUALLY a concept employed by some VERY
>HIGH-END speaker makers. The concept being that when reproducing acoustic
>music, having speakers resonate (like a musical instrument) will produce a
>warmer, more life-like sound (don't argue the merits of this concept with
>me, I'm just telling you the philosophy).
>
>I have a pair of Michael Green Designs Tower speakers. I LOVE these
>speakers, they are the most life-like speakers I have ever heard. They are
>actually DESIGNED to resonate some. They have four sets of knobs connected
>to wires inside that adjust the tension of the cabinet (much like a guitar
>string). By adjusting the tension of these wires, you adjust the amount of
>resonance the cabinet produces. This does, indeed, effect the tonal
>character of the sound, and as I said before, these speakers sound
>EXQUISITE. Obviously, this is something that should ONLY be employed
>through careful engineering, not accidental resonance. Of course, for
>conventional enclosures (like my subwoofers in my car), resonance is almost
>always a bad thing as it represents wasted energy (sound energy converted to
>mechanical vibration instead of, well, sound).


I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every add
of their own company.
About 25 years ago, I made my own version of the Altec Voice of the Theater.
Large plywood boxes with a home made mid horn and of course the woofer
was horn loaded. Well I just loved the sound of these things playing loud
rock music. They just produced the effects of large plywood concert speakers,
giving that concert sound. It wasn't a bad thing, but certainly not high end.
After over 25 years of reading Speaker Builder magazine and others, I never
heard of trying to make a cabinet sound alltough I understand the concept
of pleasing sound.

greg

[MOSFET]

>
> If your speakers are adjustable, where's the right adjustment? For which
> instrument? Bass? Cello? Deep piano & organ notes? It's a matter of taste.
Oh, I agree. I often wish these speakers WERE NOT adjustable, as I would
certainly trust a musical expert (let's say...a concert violinist) more than
my own ears. However, the instructions for the speakers indicated that by
adjusting the resonance, you can compensate for certain acoustic properties
of the listening room. And as we all know the room in which speakers are
placed make half the difference, so I suppose adjustability can be a desired
thing.

MOSFET

[Doug Kanter]

"MOSFET" > wrote in message
...
> >
>> If your speakers are adjustable, where's the right adjustment? For which
>> instrument? Bass? Cello? Deep piano & organ notes? It's a matter of
>> taste.
> Oh, I agree. I often wish these speakers WERE NOT adjustable, as I would
> certainly trust a musical expert (let's say...a concert violinist) more
> than my own ears. However, the instructions for the speakers indicated
> that by adjusting the resonance, you can compensate for certain acoustic
> properties of the listening room. And as we all know the room in which
> speakers are placed make half the difference, so I suppose adjustability
> can be a desired thing.
>
> MOSFET
>

Whatever. These speakers are an exception, but at least not a randomly
designed one. What the other guy is saying is nuts, though. Maybe he's never
heard some of the Japanese home speakers from the late 1980s - the crap that
came with "rack systems". Gag me.... :-) Just one step beyond cardboard.

[MOSFET]

> I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every add
> of their own company.

Greg, I'm not sure what this comment even means or if it is directed at me.

I was simply stating that your assertion that "The only resonant home
speakers are
cheap home speakers" was incorrect. There ARE in fact expensive home
speakers that employ resonance into their design. I know, welcome to
Usenet. But I have learned over the years sometimes it is best not to make
blanket statements (like "all of these are this way" or "every single one is
like this") as there always seems to be some wise apple (like me) who comes
along with an exception. Leave yourself an out.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

"Doug The purpose of a cabinet is to
> contain air and give the components a place to hang onto. There are no
> exceptions.
Hey, I just gave you an exception (though I tend to agree that non-resonant
enclosures are best and that cement WOULD make an ideal enclosure). What,
am I chop liver here?

MOSFET

[GregS]

In article >, "MOSFET" > wrote:
>> I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every add
>> of their own company.
>
>Greg, I'm not sure what this comment even means or if it is directed at me.
>

Michael Green, Matthew Polk.
Perhaps they were not loved as a child.
They like to show everyone that they have achieved something by showing their
faces in magazines.


>I was simply stating that your assertion that "The only resonant home
>speakers are
>cheap home speakers" was incorrect. There ARE in fact expensive home
>speakers that employ resonance into their design. I know, welcome to
>Usenet. But I have learned over the years sometimes it is best not to make
>blanket statements (like "all of these are this way" or "every single one is
>like this") as there always seems to be some wise apple (like me) who comes
>along with an exception. Leave yourself an out.
>
>MOSFET
>
>

[GregS]

In article >, "MOSFET" > wrote:
>
>"Doug The purpose of a cabinet is to
>> contain air and give the components a place to hang onto. There are no
>> exceptions.
>Hey, I just gave you an exception (though I tend to agree that non-resonant
>enclosures are best and that cement WOULD make an ideal enclosure). What,
>am I chop liver here?

Cement might be ideal for bass, but at higher frequencies it resonates and ring badly.
If the resanance is above the opperating band, your OK. Cabinets are
always a combination of basic material and a dampng mechanism.

greg

[Matt Ion]

GregS wrote:

> I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every add
> of their own company.
> About 25 years ago, I made my own version of the Altec Voice of the Theater.
> Large plywood boxes with a home made mid horn and of course the woofer
> was horn loaded. Well I just loved the sound of these things playing loud
> rock music. They just produced the effects of large plywood concert speakers,
> giving that concert sound. It wasn't a bad thing, but certainly not high end.
> After over 25 years of reading Speaker Builder magazine and others, I never
> heard of trying to make a cabinet sound alltough I understand the concept
> of pleasing sound.

Concert/PA speaker cabinets are not made of plywood because it gives a
certain sound... it's done because plywood is lighter, an important
consideration in a cabinet that has to be portable. It's also more
durable than MDF, another important consideration with a unit that's
going to be lifted, swung around, dropped, and trucked around on a
regular basis. Plywood also withstands water better - MDF will swell up
and crumble at the least bit of moisture.

In short: plywood is the construction material of choice for PA systems
for entirely practical reasons, not sound-quality reasons. With the
wide listening area, usually horrendously reverberant venues, and the
huge stage volume, worrying about the difference in sound quality of
plywood vs. other materials becomes moot... getting it LOUD is the point.

Keep in mind that those big sub enclosures generally have very solid
internal bracing, specifically to reduce flexing and increase the
strength and rigidity of the box. Most of them use some sort of ported
or folded-horn design as well.

Actually, more and more PA systems are being made from plastics...
again, primarily for the weight and durability factors. It's probably
cheaper than wood as well, to be able to just crank out a bunch of
pre-moulded boxes, rather than all that cutting and gluing and screwing
and sawdust...


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[Doug Kanter]

"GregS" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "MOSFET"
> > wrote:
>>
>>"Doug The purpose of a cabinet is to
>>> contain air and give the components a place to hang onto. There are no
>>> exceptions.
>>Hey, I just gave you an exception (though I tend to agree that
>>non-resonant
>>enclosures are best and that cement WOULD make an ideal enclosure). What,
>>am I chop liver here?
>
> Cement might be ideal for bass, but at higher frequencies it resonates and
> ring badly.
> If the resanance is above the opperating band, your OK. Cabinets are
> always a combination of basic material and a dampng mechanism.
>
> greg


Greg, before this discussion goes any further, you'd better qualify that
entire last paragraph by suggesting some actual dimensions for your cement
speaker cabinets, as well as a range of wattages you think might make them
resonate. Without those two pieces of information, you cannot claim that
cement resonates.

My vision: 4" thick walls for the cement boxes, and "typical" home system
wattages - let's say 100 watts.

And, let's not say "Oh yeah? What if you drove 4000 watts into the same
speaker?", because most people don't.

[MOSFET]

> Cement might be ideal for bass, but at higher frequencies it resonates and
> ring badly.

Ok, now I'm intrigued. Please explain how cement resonates at high
frequencies. I truly have no idea what you mean, but I'm curious. Have you
ever rapped your knuckles on a concrete block? Any ringing?

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Oh, OK, I get it. ;)

"GregS" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "MOSFET"
> > wrote:
>>> I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every
>>> add
>>> of their own company.
>>
>>Greg, I'm not sure what this comment even means or if it is directed at
>>me.
>>
>
> Michael Green, Matthew Polk.
> Perhaps they were not loved as a child.
> They like to show everyone that they have achieved something by showing
> their
> faces in magazines.
>
>
>>I was simply stating that your assertion that "The only resonant home
>>speakers are
>>cheap home speakers" was incorrect. There ARE in fact expensive home
>>speakers that employ resonance into their design. I know, welcome to
>>Usenet. But I have learned over the years sometimes it is best not to
>>make
>>blanket statements (like "all of these are this way" or "every single one
>>is
>>like this") as there always seems to be some wise apple (like me) who
>>comes
>>along with an exception. Leave yourself an out.
>>
>>MOSFET
>>
>>

[Doug Kanter]

"MOSFET" > wrote in message
m...
>> Cement might be ideal for bass, but at higher frequencies it resonates
>> and ring badly.
>
> Ok, now I'm intrigued. Please explain how cement resonates at high
> frequencies. I truly have no idea what you mean, but I'm curious. Have
> you ever rapped your knuckles on a concrete block? Any ringing?
>
> MOSFET
>

It's kinda like those high frequencies generated by earthquakes. You know.
That high pitched sound before the buildings start shaking.

[GregS]

In article <mIaZf.2615$gO.833@pd7tw3no>, Matt Ion > wrote:
>GregS wrote:
>
>> I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every add
>> of their own company.
>> About 25 years ago, I made my own version of the Altec Voice of the Theater.
>> Large plywood boxes with a home made mid horn and of course the woofer
>> was horn loaded. Well I just loved the sound of these things playing loud
>> rock music. They just produced the effects of large plywood concert speakers,
>> giving that concert sound. It wasn't a bad thing, but certainly not high end.
>> After over 25 years of reading Speaker Builder magazine and others, I never
>> heard of trying to make a cabinet sound alltough I understand the concept
>> of pleasing sound.
>
>Concert/PA speaker cabinets are not made of plywood because it gives a
>certain sound... it's done because plywood is lighter, an important
>consideration in a cabinet that has to be portable. It's also more
>durable than MDF, another important consideration with a unit that's
>going to be lifted, swung around, dropped, and trucked around on a
>regular basis. Plywood also withstands water better - MDF will swell up
>and crumble at the least bit of moisture.
>
>In short: plywood is the construction material of choice for PA systems
>for entirely practical reasons, not sound-quality reasons. With the
>wide listening area, usually horrendously reverberant venues, and the
>huge stage volume, worrying about the difference in sound quality of
>plywood vs. other materials becomes moot... getting it LOUD is the point.
>
>Keep in mind that those big sub enclosures generally have very solid
>internal bracing, specifically to reduce flexing and increase the
>strength and rigidity of the box. Most of them use some sort of ported
>or folded-horn design as well.
>
>Actually, more and more PA systems are being made from plastics...
>again, primarily for the weight and durability factors. It's probably
>cheaper than wood as well, to be able to just crank out a bunch of
>pre-moulded boxes, rather than all that cutting and gluing and screwing
>and sawdust...

I have made speakers for DJ, and lifting undue weight is not my idea of fun,
so plywood is my choice. Of course you can't say plywoods
are all the same as well as saying particle board is all the same.
YOu have to be carefull with local yard lumber, because the layers
can separate, and I've also seen it with a many more layers. Most all
speakers are made with a particle board base. Only higher end models
use MDF. Paul Klispsh used to say his plywood corner horn sounded
better than other copies, because he used better plywood.

I can't emphasize enough, these box sounds do not usually
apply to bass cabs. Box sounds apply mostly to midrange sounds.
If woofer stays below 100 Hz, then forget box sounds, unless
the box is vibrating at a harmonic, resonating, or just plain falling apart.
..
greg

[GregS]

In article >, "MOSFET" > wrote:
>> Cement might be ideal for bass, but at higher frequencies it resonates and
>> ring badly.
>
>Ok, now I'm intrigued. Please explain how cement resonates at high
>frequencies. I truly have no idea what you mean, but I'm curious. Have you
>ever rapped your knuckles on a concrete block? Any ringing?

I repeat, if its a sub cab it does not matter. Its when you use a driver
and a rattle, ringing, or other sound occurs withing the passband of the
driver is it really a problem. Higher frequency sounds can be created
by a lower frequency, if there are distortions in the system, or
if the box can't hold up under the forces of that driver.
On any box, you can tap it and listen.
I suggest tapping with a hard metal object. If a box rings
or otherwise is a poor choice, the amount of power necessary does
not matter. Ceramic has been used before, and again it also
needs internal damping to control the upper register ringing.
In some cases drivers are insulated, or like mounted on rubber
isolators. This prevents vibrations in the driver frame
from transfering to the box. Would be ideal in a hard box like
ceramic or cement. I'm talking midranges of course.

greg

[MOSFET]

gluing and screwing
> and sawdust...
>
Wow! Sounds like a party! Count me in!!

MOSFET