Staging Question

[Tony F]

It seems the "preferred" center of the sound stage is the center of the
dash, correct? It has occurred to me on several occasions that the center
of the sound stage would be more appropriate if it were directly in front of
the listener, such as in front of the steering wheel. I've really been
playing around with time alignment, xovers, balance and phase and found that
if I were to have a truly equally expansive left-to-right soundstage, the
center of this stage is actually right in front of me - NOT in the center of
the dash - which is actually ahead of me and to the right. It has also
occurred to me that the center (in front of the steering wheel) is easier to
visualize with my eyes closed - because when I open my eyes I'm not sitting
in the center of the car but to the far left. This has screwed with my head
on many occasions. Anyway, it's very very late (or early, depending on your
frame of reference) and I just spent an hour and a half listening to my
system parked in my garage with the engine off (OFF, not running!) so I
consider myself quite the expert at this particular moment!! LOL

Tony


--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear
Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe

[MOSFET]

Tony, you and I seem very similar. I, TOO, have spent long hours agonizing
over this very question. A question that to many (including my wife) does
not seem to be that important, but to me, it is VERY important.

My center image is located on the center of the dash, NOT right in front of
me. Like you, I have experimented EXTENSIVELY with both set-ups. What
ultimately decided this issue for me was the fact that when the center image
is right in front of me, it SEEMS like the left speakers are too loud. Of
course, this is due to the fact that I am sitting on the left-hand side of
the car, AND MY EYES ARE OPEN TO NOTICE THIS FACT. I know that this issue
is psychosomatic, and if my eyes were closed all the time it would not
bother me. It just boils down to the fact that it APPEARS that both sets of
speakers are at equal volume when the center-image is located in the center
of the dash. It's all in my mind.

Nick

"Tony F" > wrote in message
...
> It seems the "preferred" center of the sound stage is the center of the
> dash, correct? It has occurred to me on several occasions that the center
> of the sound stage would be more appropriate if it were directly in front
> of the listener, such as in front of the steering wheel. I've really been
> playing around with time alignment, xovers, balance and phase and found
> that if I were to have a truly equally expansive left-to-right soundstage,
> the center of this stage is actually right in front of me - NOT in the
> center of the dash - which is actually ahead of me and to the right. It
> has also occurred to me that the center (in front of the steering wheel)
> is easier to visualize with my eyes closed - because when I open my eyes
> I'm not sitting in the center of the car but to the far left. This has
> screwed with my head on many occasions. Anyway, it's very very late (or
> early, depending on your frame of reference) and I just spent an hour and
> a half listening to my system parked in my garage with the engine off
> (OFF, not running!) so I consider myself quite the expert at this
> particular moment!! LOL
>
> Tony
>
>
> --
> 2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
> Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
> Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For
> Rear Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub
>
> 2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
> Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
> Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub
>
> 2006 Mustang GT Coupe
>

[Tony F]

Yes, I've noticed that we have a lot in common, Nick. Although sometimes
you blow me away with these little bursts of knowledge you seem to possess
about things I have absolutely NO clue of whatsoever!! How old are you and
how many careers have you had your hand at?

Anyway. Have you ever tried using time alignment to add delay to the RIGHT
speakers? I know this defies common sense and logic, but putting that aside
for the moment, have you? I tried this quite extensively the other day and
among other things, like adjusting my balance control slightly to the left
and reversing the phase on my midranges and upping the xover frequency point
on my mids/tweeters to 6.3kHz...it sounds GREAT! I had given up on the idea
of TA because whenever I added delay to the left speakers I could never seem
to get good results no matter what I tried. I think you and I attributed
this to me having kick panels, no? Anyway, I was just messing around and
started adding delay to the passenger side and low and behold.... **trumpets
playing** It sounds very, very good.

Everyone please feel free to technical "blah blah blah" me to death about
why this may be a bad idea on paper, but bottom line it sounds GOOD! :-)

Tony




--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear
Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe

[MOSFET]

Well, I DO have delay for the right speaker. But this is so the subwoofer
sound can catch up. The subwoofer is the only speakers that are not time
delayed. I have experimented THOROUGHLY with my time-correction and I truly
believe that I have it set in the optimum position. I delay the right side
4 ms, the left-side 4.5 ms, and the rear-fill 9.3 ms. I know 9.3 ms may
seem like a lot for the rear-fill, but this setting seems to add the most
"ambience" to the sound, without pulling the image back (I can have my
rear-fill up rather loud this way).

I am 38, MWM, 6'2", brown hair, like long walks on the beach...lol.

Well I am 38, and yes, I have had several different careers. I worked for
10 years as a manager at AT&T in the video teleconferencing department. I
managed the accounts of Boeing, Microsoft, and other large companies in the
PNW. I HATED THAT WORK!!!! So I left that to work at Phoenix Gold, where
my TRUE PASSIONS LAY!!!! I also have been a college professor at the
University of Portland (a small private college in Portland). I taught a
Consumer Behavior course to undergrads and graduates.

NOW, I work for the family business, Tanner Enterprises. We own real estate
property including office buildings, apartments, etc. (Tanner Properties).
And we own a wedding chapel, we do fashion shows, and Bed and Breakfasts
(Tanner Entertainment). I also work part time at an Animal Shelter, Camano
Animal Shelter and I just built a website for them and you can see a picture
of my wife on that site at http://www.camanoanimalshelter.com/ on the last
page. You'll also notice that Tanner Entertainment is the sponsor for that
site and you can see a VERY SMALL picture of me if you follow the sponsor's
link. I've been into car audio since 1989, basically ever since I had money
to indulge the hobby! I used to compete pretty heavily in the Portland area
in the middle nineties in IASCA and other local shows. I live in the
Seattle area now.

What do you do, Tony? I know you've mentioned it a couple times, but for
the life of me, I forgot.

Nick


"Tony F" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, I've noticed that we have a lot in common, Nick. Although sometimes
> you blow me away with these little bursts of knowledge you seem to possess
> about things I have absolutely NO clue of whatsoever!! How old are you
> and how many careers have you had your hand at?
>
> Anyway. Have you ever tried using time alignment to add delay to the
> RIGHT speakers? I know this defies common sense and logic, but putting
> that aside for the moment, have you? I tried this quite extensively the
> other day and among other things, like adjusting my balance control
> slightly to the left and reversing the phase on my midranges and upping
> the xover frequency point on my mids/tweeters to 6.3kHz...it sounds GREAT!
> I had given up on the idea of TA because whenever I added delay to the
> left speakers I could never seem to get good results no matter what I
> tried. I think you and I attributed this to me having kick panels, no?
> Anyway, I was just messing around and started adding delay to the
> passenger side and low and behold.... **trumpets playing** It sounds
> very, very good.
>
> Everyone please feel free to technical "blah blah blah" me to death about
> why this may be a bad idea on paper, but bottom line it sounds GOOD! :-)
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
> --
> 2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
> Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
> Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For
> Rear Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub
>
> 2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
> Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
> Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub
>
> 2006 Mustang GT Coupe
>

[MOSFET]

NO!! That's my Dad and Mom. Though I do ride, OFTEN. I LOVE riding
Harley's!!!

Nick

"Austin Becker" > wrote in message
news:_uIXf.76349$oL.11748@attbi_s71...
> I'm assuming that's you on the motorcycle?
>
> --
> - AUSTIN BECKER
> "MOSFET" > wrote in message
> m...
>> you can see a VERY SMALL picture of me if you follow the sponsor's
>> link.
>
>

[Austin Becker]

Ok, I didn't think so because the picture of your wife looked nothing like
the woman on the back of the bike, but that was the only pic of a dude that
I saw.

--
- AUSTIN BECKER
"MOSFET" > wrote in message
m...
> NO!! That's my Dad and Mom. Though I do ride, OFTEN. I LOVE riding
> Harley's!!!
>
> Nick
>
> "Austin Becker" > wrote in message
> news:_uIXf.76349$oL.11748@attbi_s71...
> > I'm assuming that's you on the motorcycle?
> >
> > --
> > - AUSTIN BECKER
> > "MOSFET" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >> you can see a VERY SMALL picture of me if you follow the sponsor's
> >> link.
> >
> >
>
>

[MOSFET]

If you go to the wedding-chapel page, you will see a picture of me in the
very background (that's what I meant), I am the live music (I play
keyboards). Also, there are other pictures of my wife on the Fashion Show
Gallery page.

Nick

"Austin Becker" > wrote in message
news:9TRXf.904755$xm3.806124@attbi_s21...
> Ok, I didn't think so because the picture of your wife looked nothing like
> the woman on the back of the bike, but that was the only pic of a dude
> that
> I saw.
>
> --
> - AUSTIN BECKER
> "MOSFET" > wrote in message
> m...
>> NO!! That's my Dad and Mom. Though I do ride, OFTEN. I LOVE riding
>> Harley's!!!
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> "Austin Becker" > wrote in message
>> news:_uIXf.76349$oL.11748@attbi_s71...
>> > I'm assuming that's you on the motorcycle?
>> >
>> > --
>> > - AUSTIN BECKER
>> > "MOSFET" > wrote in message
>> > m...
>> >> you can see a VERY SMALL picture of me if you follow the sponsor's
>> >> link.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

[MOSFET]

Tony, just for grins, I changed my time alignment so my center image was
RIGHT in front of me all day. I agree, with my eyes closed, the soundstage
seemed a bit deeper, and higher to me. But when my eyes were open, LIKE
WHEN DRIVING, I found my right hand impulsively creeping towards the balance
control to boost the right speakers. It jsut seems like something is wrong
when the image is centered at the sterring-wheel. Perhaps I just need to
get used to it for a while.

Nick

[Cyrus]

In article >,
"Tony F" > wrote:

> It seems the "preferred" center of the sound stage is the center of the
> dash, correct? It has occurred to me on several occasions that the center
> of the sound stage would be more appropriate if it were directly in front of
> the listener, such as in front of the steering wheel. I've really been
> playing around with time alignment, xovers, balance and phase and found that
> if I were to have a truly equally expansive left-to-right soundstage, the
> center of this stage is actually right in front of me - NOT in the center of
> the dash - which is actually ahead of me and to the right. It has also
> occurred to me that the center (in front of the steering wheel) is easier to
> visualize with my eyes closed - because when I open my eyes I'm not sitting
> in the center of the car but to the far left. This has screwed with my head
> on many occasions. Anyway, it's very very late (or early, depending on your
> frame of reference) and I just spent an hour and a half listening to my
> system parked in my garage with the engine off (OFF, not running!) so I
> consider myself quite the expert at this particular moment!! LOL
>
> Tony

I concur, generally preferring the 'balance' a couple clicks to the
left. The left midbass+tweeter was never loud enough, as they were
aiming directly at my ankles.. while the right midbass+tweeter are not
much off axis to my right ear.

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*