Reprise of the oh-so-obvious

[George M. Middius]

Well, the sun rose and set today, the tides came in and went out, and sure
enough, duh-Mikey and Sillybot are still nattering on about the supposed
value of blind "tests" for audio equipment. Regardless of what
******PROFESSIONAL AUDIO DESIGNERS****** might do in their labs and
factories, it's worth repeating one salient fact:

Neither duh-Mikey nor Sillybot has *****EVER***** participated in
*****ANY***** bias-controlled, double-blind listening test of audio gear.

Not a single one. Ever.

[Arny Krueger]

"George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
[dot] net> wrote in message

> Well, the sun rose and set today, the tides came in and
> went out, and sure enough, duh-Mikey and Sillybot are
> still nattering on about the supposed value of blind
> "tests" for audio equipment. Regardless of what
> ******PROFESSIONAL AUDIO DESIGNERS****** might do in
> their labs and factories, it's worth repeating one
> salient fact:
>
> Neither duh-Mikey nor Sillybot has *****EVER*****
> participated in *****ANY***** bias-controlled,
> double-blind listening test of audio gear.
>
> Not a single one. Ever.

Agreed that they ignore www.pcabx.com at their own risk.

[Joe Duffy]

In article >,
Arny Krueger > wrote:
>"George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
>[dot] net> wrote in message

>> Well, the sun rose and set today, the tides came in and
>> went out, and sure enough, duh-Mikey and Sillybot are
>> still nattering on about the supposed value of blind
>> "tests" for audio equipment. Regardless of what
>> ******PROFESSIONAL AUDIO DESIGNERS****** might do in
>> their labs and factories, it's worth repeating one
>> salient fact:
>>
>> Neither duh-Mikey nor Sillybot has *****EVER*****
>> participated in *****ANY***** bias-controlled,
>> double-blind listening test of audio gear.
>>
>> Not a single one. Ever.
>
>Agreed that they ignore www.pcabx.com at their own risk.
>
>
>

This the most classic interchange in the history
of rao!
The clash of the mental titans.



Joe

"George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote
in message ...
>
>
>
> Well, the sun rose and set today, the tides came in and went out, and sure
> enough, duh-Mikey and Sillybot are still nattering on about the supposed
> value of blind "tests" for audio equipment. Regardless of what
> ******PROFESSIONAL AUDIO DESIGNERS****** might do in their labs and
> factories, it's worth repeating one salient fact:
>
> Neither duh-Mikey nor Sillybot has *****EVER***** participated in
> *****ANY***** bias-controlled, double-blind listening test of audio gear.
>
> Not a single one. Ever.
>
>
Which is an irrelevant point, even if it were 100% true which it is not, but
then truth has no meaning for you, does it George.

I have mentioned doing blind comparisons of speaker wire which is why I no
longer waste money on designer cable.

Whether or not anybody who advocates blind testing has ever done such a test
has no bearing on their efficacy. I have not been in the space shuttle, but
I know they go into space. One needn't actually put one's hand in the fire
to know it burns. The point is, there are many things that one can know
without actually having done.

That there is overwhelming support of and usage of blind testing is just one
of many factors that speak to the usefulness of such tests.

That there is confirmation insofar as the results of blind tests match what
it is known about how people hear and correlates with measurements is
another factor that demonstrates it's reliability.

Smoke screen after smoke screen, plus the obligatory ad hominem attack,
usually as a follow up to someone making a salient point about your
disgusting behavior simply points up how ridiculous you are as a human and
as a make believe audiophile.

You'd have a better chance of trying to convince people that we never went
to the moon than of denying the efficacy and reliability of blind testing.
It's a done deal, George, it works and the entire scientific community that
works in the audio electronics field knows it and uses such tests.

Your constant barrage of crap trying to convince people that they are not
valid or don't actually reveal that much of what passes as high end
equipment is simply over priced and sounds exactly the same as stuff you can
buy at Circuit City is pathetic, especially since you nor any of the other
naysayers have a single other reliable method of comparing audio gear that
even comes close to being as relaible as DBT.

[Powell]

> wrote

> I have mentioned doing blind comparisons of
> speaker wire which is why I no longer waste
> money on designer cable.
>
Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
please?


> Your constant barrage of crap trying to convince people
> that they are not valid or don't actually reveal that much
> of what passes as high end equipment is simply over
> priced and sounds exactly the same as stuff you can
> buy at Circuit City is pathetic, especially since you nor
> any of the other naysayers have a single other reliable
> method of comparing audio gear that even comes close
> to being as relaible as DBT.
>
= Broke-A$$®

"same as stuff you can buy at Circuit City... oh really?
Circuit City values like these?
10' Monster Z3 speaker cable $300
2M Monster Z200i interconnects $280
Monster Voltage Stabilizer $1,500

[Steven Sullivan]

wrote:

> "George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote
> in message ...
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, the sun rose and set today, the tides came in and went out, and sure
> > enough, duh-Mikey and Sillybot are still nattering on about the supposed
> > value of blind "tests" for audio equipment. Regardless of what
> > ******PROFESSIONAL AUDIO DESIGNERS****** might do in their labs and
> > factories, it's worth repeating one salient fact:
> >
> > Neither duh-Mikey nor Sillybot has *****EVER***** participated in
> > *****ANY***** bias-controlled, double-blind listening test of audio gear.
> >
> > Not a single one. Ever.
> >
> >
> Which is an irrelevant point, even if it were 100% true which it is not, but
> then truth has no meaning for you, does it George.

I wonder what happens if I do a DBT of a component...does George's head
explode? (oops, does that constitute another *death threat*?)

> I have mentioned doing blind comparisons of speaker wire which is why I no
> longer waste money on designer cable.

Now watch the goalposts change....'it wasn't ABX!!'

> Whether or not anybody who advocates blind testing has ever done such a test
> has no bearing on their efficacy. I have not been in the space shuttle, but
> I know they go into space. One needn't actually put one's hand in the fire
> to know it burns. The point is, there are many things that one can know
> without actually having done.

Ah, but you see, you're ignoring the 'real world' -- at least, the one
that audiophiles want to be real. In that one, only truly informative
methods are ones that the average consumer (not that audiophiles really
want to be called *that*, but anyway) can use themselves. Even if
science has demonstrated those methods to be quite unreliable.

If we extrapolate this reasoning to the testing of all products and
claims we get...a return to the dark ages, perhaps? Or maybe
it's just encouragement for going into the business of selling Intelligent
Chips to credulous fools.



--
-S
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary." - James Madison (1788)

[Steven Sullivan]

Powell > wrote:

> > wrote

> > I have mentioned doing blind comparisons of
> > speaker wire which is why I no longer waste
> > money on designer cable.
> >
> Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
> please?

more pressingly:

manufacturer, model, length and gauge of any two cables
that have passed a DBT for audible difference
please?



> > Your constant barrage of crap trying to convince people
> > that they are not valid or don't actually reveal that much
> > of what passes as high end equipment is simply over
> > priced and sounds exactly the same as stuff you can
> > buy at Circuit City is pathetic, especially since you nor
> > any of the other naysayers have a single other reliable
> > method of comparing audio gear that even comes close
> > to being as relaible as DBT.
> >
> = Broke-A$$?

> "same as stuff you can buy at Circuit City... oh really?
> Circuit City values like these?
> 10' Monster Z3 speaker cable $300
> 2M Monster Z200i interconnects $280
> Monster Voltage Stabilizer $1,500

Thanks to audiophiles, Circuit City is willing to try
selling overpriced flooby too. Civilization marches
on!





--
-S
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary." - James Madison (1788)

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote
>
>> I have mentioned doing blind comparisons of
>> speaker wire which is why I no longer waste
>> money on designer cable.
>>
> Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
> please?
>
Mentioned before, it's irrelevant anyway as we now know the results would be
the same for almost any desinger wire.
>
>> Your constant barrage of crap trying to convince people
>> that they are not valid or don't actually reveal that much
>> of what passes as high end equipment is simply over
>> priced and sounds exactly the same as stuff you can
>> buy at Circuit City is pathetic, especially since you nor
>> any of the other naysayers have a single other reliable
>> method of comparing audio gear that even comes close
>> to being as relaible as DBT.
>>
> = Broke-A$$®
>
> "same as stuff you can buy at Circuit City... oh really?
> Circuit City values like these?
> 10' Monster Z3 speaker cable $300
> 2M Monster Z200i interconnects $280
> Monster Voltage Stabilizer $1,500
>
>
Don't be silly, that's for the ignorant who don't know any better.

Which of the above has ever been shown to have any effect on the sound of an
audio system and if so under what conditions?


With the constant attempts at dumbing down those with an interest in good
sounding audio, it's no wonder that Monster has had success in marketing to
the foolish.

I think Monster and the other desinger cable companies should give a big pat
on the back to their partners in crime at Stereophile and TAS or any other
rag that has endorsed this kind of deception.

"Steven Sullivan" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>> "George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net>
>> wrote
>> in message ...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, the sun rose and set today, the tides came in and went out, and
>> > sure
>> > enough, duh-Mikey and Sillybot are still nattering on about the
>> > supposed
>> > value of blind "tests" for audio equipment. Regardless of what
>> > ******PROFESSIONAL AUDIO DESIGNERS****** might do in their labs and
>> > factories, it's worth repeating one salient fact:
>> >
>> > Neither duh-Mikey nor Sillybot has *****EVER***** participated in
>> > *****ANY***** bias-controlled, double-blind listening test of audio
>> > gear.
>> >
>> > Not a single one. Ever.
>> >
>> >
>> Which is an irrelevant point, even if it were 100% true which it is not,
>> but
>> then truth has no meaning for you, does it George.
>
> I wonder what happens if I do a DBT of a component...does George's head
> explode?

One can dream. Sigh.

(oops, does that constitute another *death threat*?)
>

How do you threaten someone who doesn't exist?

>> I have mentioned doing blind comparisons of speaker wire which is why I
>> no
>> longer waste money on designer cable.
>
> Now watch the goalposts change....'it wasn't ABX!!'
>
>> Whether or not anybody who advocates blind testing has ever done such a
>> test
>> has no bearing on their efficacy. I have not been in the space shuttle,
>> but
>> I know they go into space. One needn't actually put one's hand in the
>> fire
>> to know it burns. The point is, there are many things that one can know
>> without actually having done.
>
> Ah, but you see, you're ignoring the 'real world' -- at least, the one
> that audiophiles want to be real. In that one, only truly informative
> methods are ones that the average consumer (not that audiophiles really
> want to be called *that*, but anyway) can use themselves. Even if
> science has demonstrated those methods to be quite unreliable.
>
> If we extrapolate this reasoning to the testing of all products and
> claims we get...a return to the dark ages, perhaps? Or maybe
> it's just encouragement for going into the business of selling Intelligent
> Chips to credulous fools.
>
>
We don't need no stinking blind tests.
Whaddaya mean ear cones don't actuall;y work?
The mind reels at the incredible stupidity of people who think they are not
subject to the bias that DBT eliminates. Do they really believe that the
entire scientific community working on audio just makes up the results of
the tests that show that people can fool themselves into hearing better
sound out of a comaprison of two systems where no switching even occured?

Do they think the McGurk effect is not another example of how people can be
fooled by their eyes?

Why do seemingly smart people continue to rant and rave about how it's blind
testing that makes things sound the same and not the fact that they actually
DO SOUND THE SAME?

It's the electronic equivilent of faith healing. Even when shown that the
faith healers are frauds, people still continue to believe.
>
> --
> -S
> "If men were angels, no government would be necessary." - James Madison
> (1788)

[George M. Middius]

And now, it's siciccnecce time!

> > Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
> > please?

> Mentioned before, it's irrelevant anyway as we now know the results would be
> the same for almost any desinger wire.

It's a good thing your stock has already hit bottom, Mickey.

"George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote
in message ...
>
>
> And now, it's siciccnecce time!
>
>> > Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
>> > please?
>
>> Mentioned before, it's irrelevant anyway as we now know the results would
>> be
>> the same for almost any desinger wire.
>
> It's a good thing your stock has already hit bottom, Mickey.
>
>
>
You have evidence of wire that sounds different in a reliable, bias
contrlled test?
I didn't think so.

Just keep oinking, George, it's what you do best.

[Clyde Slick]

"George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote
in message ...
>
>
> And now, it's siciccnecce time!
>
>> > Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
>> > please?
>
>> Mentioned before, it's irrelevant anyway as we now know the results would
>> be
>> the same for almost any desinger wire.
>
> It's a good thing your stock has already hit bottom, Mickey.
>

Luckily, I had expectation effects and sold off a long time ago.



--
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"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net>
> wrote in message ...
>>
>>
>> And now, it's siciccnecce time!
>>
>>> > Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
>>> > please?
>>
>>> Mentioned before, it's irrelevant anyway as we now know the results
>>> would be
>>> the same for almost any desinger wire.
>>
>> It's a good thing your stock has already hit bottom, Mickey.
>>
>
> Luckily, I had expectation effects and sold off a long time ago.
>
>
I didn't have any, I was fully expecting the more expensive stuff to sound
better.
Now, I'd still tyr and have an open mind and I don't think I'd bother unless
there were some reason to think there might be something that might be
heard.

[Clyde Slick]

> wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net>
>> wrote in message ...
>>>
>>> It's a good thing your stock has already hit bottom, Mickey.
>>>
>>
>> Luckily, I had expectation effects and sold off a long time ago.
>>
>>
> I didn't have any, I was fully expecting the more expensive stuff to sound
> better.
> Now, I'd still tyr and have an open mind and I don't think I'd bother
> unless there were some reason to think there might be something that might
> be heard.
>

Off topic and irrelevant response duly noted.



--
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Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

[Clyde Slick]

> wrote in message
ink.net...
>
>>
>>
> I didn't have any, I was fully expecting the more expensive stuff to sound
> better.
> Now, I'd still tyr and have an open mind and I don't think I'd bother
> unless there were some reason to think there might be something that might
> be heard.
>
>

Let's see-----
you would have an open mind, but wouldn't bother to open it,
unless you imagined that your expectations would be fulfilled.



--
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"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>
>>>
>>>
>> I didn't have any, I was fully expecting the more expensive stuff to
>> sound better.
>> Now, I'd still tyr and have an open mind and I don't think I'd bother
>> unless there were some reason to think there might be something that
>> might be heard.
>>
>>
>
> Let's see-----
> you would have an open mind, but wouldn't bother to open it,
> unless you imagined that your expectations would be fulfilled.
>
>
Lack of comprehension noted.

[Powell]

> wrote

>>> I have mentioned doing blind comparisons of
>>> speaker wire which is why I no longer waste
>>> money on designer cable.
>>>
>> Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
>> please?
>>
> Mentioned before, it's irrelevant anyway as we
> now know the results would be the same for
> almost any desinger wire.
>
Doesn’t say much about your personal integrity.
Why do you feel the necessity to lie about
something like this? Perhaps you have feelings
of low self-worth or is it simple egotism?


>>> Your constant barrage of crap trying to convince people
>>> that they are not valid or don't actually reveal that much
>>> of what passes as high end equipment is simply over
>>> priced and sounds exactly the same as stuff you can
>>> buy at Circuit City is pathetic, especially since you nor
>>> any of the other naysayers have a single other reliable
>>> method of comparing audio gear that even comes close
>>> to being as relaible as DBT.
>>>
>> = Broke-A$$®
>>
>> "same as stuff you can buy at Circuit City... oh really?
>> Circuit City values like these?
>> 10' Monster Z3 speaker cable $300
>> 2M Monster Z200i interconnects $280
>> Monster Voltage Stabilizer $1,500
>>
>>
> Don't be silly, that's for the ignorant who don't
> know any better.
>
So why did you site Circuit City if it is
ripping-off consumers?

Bigger question, why are you in this NG?
You appear to have the least amount of
practical audio experience of anyone on
this board, not well educated or even well
read. Can't you find better things to do
with your free time, mr. Broke-A$$®?

[George M. Middius]

Powell said to duh-Mikey:

> Bigger question, why are you in this NG?
> You appear to have the least amount of
> practical audio experience of anyone on
> this board, not well educated or even well
> read. Can't you find better things to do
> with your free time, mr. Broke-A$$®?

Mickey enrolled in an online course in Grade School Name-Calling. After he
spelled "pig" correctly three times in a row, he got his first gold star
and is now ready for third-grade insults.

[Clyde Slick]

> wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ink.net...
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I didn't have any, I was fully expecting the more expensive stuff to
>>> sound better.
>>> Now, I'd still tyr and have an open mind and I don't think I'd bother
>>> unless there were some reason to think there might be something that
>>> might be heard.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Let's see-----
>> you would have an open mind, but wouldn't bother to open it,
>> unless you imagined that your expectations would be fulfilled.
>>
>>
> Lack of comprehension noted.
>

Total lack of self awareness noted.



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Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote
>
>>>> I have mentioned doing blind comparisons of
>>>> speaker wire which is why I no longer waste
>>>> money on designer cable.
>>>>
>>> Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
>>> please?
>>>
>> Mentioned before, it's irrelevant anyway as we
>> now know the results would be the same for
>> almost any desinger wire.
>>
> Doesn't say much about your personal integrity.
> Why do you feel the necessity to lie about
> something like this? Perhaps you have feelings
> of low self-worth or is it simple egotism?
>
>
>>>> Your constant barrage of crap trying to convince people
>>>> that they are not valid or don't actually reveal that much
>>>> of what passes as high end equipment is simply over
>>>> priced and sounds exactly the same as stuff you can
>>>> buy at Circuit City is pathetic, especially since you nor
>>>> any of the other naysayers have a single other reliable
>>>> method of comparing audio gear that even comes close
>>>> to being as relaible as DBT.
>>>>
>>> = Broke-A$$®
>>>
>>> "same as stuff you can buy at Circuit City... oh really?
>>> Circuit City values like these?
>>> 10' Monster Z3 speaker cable $300
>>> 2M Monster Z200i interconnects $280
>>> Monster Voltage Stabilizer $1,500
>>>
>>>
>> Don't be silly, that's for the ignorant who don't
>> know any better.
>>
> So why did you site Circuit City if it is
> ripping-off consumers?
>
Because they also sell the kind of mass market stuff the idiot contingent is
always claiming sounds inferior to the overpriced cottage industry stuff.


> Bigger question, why are you in this NG?
Why are you? You only seem to show up to attack somebody.

> You appear to have the least amount of
> practical audio experience of anyone on
> this board, not well educated or even well
> read. Can't you find better things to do
> with your free time, mr. Broke-A$$®?
>
>
So, I shouldn't come here to learn from such knowledgable persons as
yourself?

[[email protected]]

Steven Sullivan wrote:
> Powell > wrote:
>
> > > wrote
>
> > > I have mentioned doing blind comparisons of
> > > speaker wire which is why I no longer waste
> > > money on designer cable.
> > >
> > Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
> > please?
>
> more pressingly:
>
> manufacturer, model, length and gauge of any two cables
> that have passed a DBT for audible difference
> please?
>
>
>
> > > Your constant barrage of crap trying to convince people
> > > that they are not valid or don't actually reveal that much
> > > of what passes as high end equipment is simply over
> > > priced and sounds exactly the same as stuff you can
> > > buy at Circuit City is pathetic, especially since you nor
> > > any of the other naysayers have a single other reliable
> > > method of comparing audio gear that even comes close
> > > to being as relaible as DBT.
> > >
> > = Broke-A$$?
>
> > "same as stuff you can buy at Circuit City... oh really?
> > Circuit City values like these?
> > 10' Monster Z3 speaker cable $300
> > 2M Monster Z200i interconnects $280
> > Monster Voltage Stabilizer $1,500
>
> Thanks to audiophiles, Circuit City is willing to try
> selling overpriced flooby too. Civilization marches
> on!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sullivan says:> more pressingly:
>
> manufacturer, model, length and gauge of any two cables
> that have passed a DBT for audible difference
> please?
>


Since we are in competition for pressing issues how about this one?:
Give reference to any report of a decent-sized , randomly selected
listeners' panel ((ie representative like it is done in any reputable
research) ), auditioning double blind any comparable audio components
whatsoever that concluded with a positive outcome: "Yes, we heard a
difference". Between whatever you choose. Speakers , cartridges- your
pick. Naturally as an aspiring scientist you would want a significant
statistical margin with laid down statistical criteria commonly
recognised in research, right? Something that would be publishable in a
serious professional journal like your JAES.

And please don't waste everybody's time again with a lame excuse for
research like your evergreen for 30 years Oakland web page or
Pinkerton's and his three pals "research" or well-meant relation by
Norm Strong of his wire listening session
..
I suppose you home-grown scientists will never get reconciled to the
simple fact that any musical instrument maker, wine producer and
audiophile (stupid word- musical reproduction fancier would be clumsier
but more exact) knows. There is no measurement for the infinity of
individual perceptions by infinity of human beings.
In addition the evidence (eg. Sean Olive loudspeaker trials)
accumulated so far points to the fact that when most people concentrate
on :"Is it different?" instead of :"Do I like it better or less?" they
invariably lose track. Testing kills recognition. Bingo, another "no
difference" outcome and joy in Sullivan's heart. He can't hear and
science proves neiher can anyone else.
I feel ashamed to be so boringly repetitive. The whole sorry debate has
been going on for some four decades.
I have had a little guide-line in medicine: if any proposed treatment
is still controversial after five years experience then it was not any
good to begin with.
Ludovic Mirabel-


>
>
>
> --
> -S
> "If men were angels, no government would be necessary." - James Madison (1788)

[Powell]

> wrote

>>> speaker wire which is why I no longer waste
>>> money on designer cable.
>>>
>> Manufacturer and model of "designer cable,"
>> please?
>>
> Mentioned before, it's irrelevant anyway as we
> now know the results would be the same for
> almost any desinger wire.
>
Doesn’t say much about your personal integrity.
Why do you feel the necessity to lie about
something like this?


> > So why did you site Circuit City if it is
> > ripping-off consumers?
> >
> Because they also sell the kind of mass market
> stuff the idiot contingent is always claiming sounds
> inferior to the overpriced cottage industry stuff.
>
Zzzzz.....


> > Bigger question, why are you in this NG?
> >
> Why are you? You only seem to show up to
> attack somebody.
>
Quack, quack, quack...


> > You appear to have the least amount of
> > practical audio experience of anyone on
> > this board, not well educated or even well
> > read. Can't you find better things to do
> > with your free time, mr. Broke-A$$®?
> >
> So, I shouldn't come here to learn from such
> knowledgable persons as yourself?
>
You’re to lazy to learn anything except trade
debating. In as far as equipment selection goes
you have no methodology, period.